703. Is the Church Fulfilling Its Social Responsibility to African Americans?

[00:00:02] Radio is like my dreams out of reach. This pain is out of it. You see that, you have to speak. Tell him it's crazy. Feel my pain.

[00:00:12] You're on Pastor Phil. Welcome to Church on the Block. Real talk about Hip Hop, The Church and the Streets with my great co-host Pastor Jay. And Ruck Boy on Holy Culture Radio, Serious XM. What's going on you on the right space man?

[00:00:30] That's right, 9am central time, 10am eastern time, channel 140 holy culture radio on the show. Ta ta ta ta, church on the block. Real talk about hip hop, the church in the streets man. This is it. So if you driving somewhere right now,

[00:00:44] this is the prime show on holy culture radio right now. Prime show, other brothers are killing it but on Sunday morning, this is the prime show to check out right now. Hey, I'm glad I let that promo. Absolutely there's only one place

[00:00:58] that you're gonna hear real talk about hip hop, the church and the street. That's right, the church on the block baby. Welcome to the show. You know what I'm saying? Hey man! Ha ha ha, if you're about to go to church, are you getting ready for church,

[00:01:13] you getting dressed or whatever the case is, check us out. We're about to talk about all kind of unique things and we talk about the church right? We talk about the church today and we're gonna go into some other components in the second parts but should the church

[00:01:29] and how deep should the church get an issue that face African-Americans? Like how, the issue that face us are in any group that's been marginalized, and even in the marginalization there's marginalization. It's kind of cool. Ha ha ha ha. But like some people believe, right?

[00:01:52] Preach Jesus, his death, brother, resurrection, him crucified and that's enough and I understand that. That is life saving, that is healing, that is identity shaping, that is calling you back to who you are in Christ but is there more? Is there not another, an outgrowth

[00:02:13] of what that acceptance of Christ is supposed to be? That's what we're talking about today. What is the church's role in these social issues specifically facing African-Americans who are most marginalized, Jay? So what are your thoughts on that? We hear you with Pastor Jay, what's up Pastor Jay?

[00:02:31] What's up, what's up Pastor Phil? Yo, anybody that's ever been around me any other time or spent any time with me knows that like I believe that the church has a call to not only otherworldly and like this eternal life conversation that's connected to afterlife

[00:02:55] but we have a real, I think a call by Christ to make sure that the life that we live in the present also reflects the fact that we've come in contact with Jesus. Yes, I preach death, the barrel of resurrection of Christ

[00:03:11] and it has both present and future implications knowing that true. So I wanna read this quote that I read in the National Museum of African-American History in DC. It's by Dr. Joseph Lowry who was the president of the SCLC Southern Christian Leadership Conference

[00:03:33] in 1980 so this is after Dr. King has been gone for a while but he says you cannot prepare people for heaven without trying to make their life here more heavenly. You know what I mean? Like we think that there's no hope for this world

[00:03:54] that God created and therefore our only hope is to like leave it alone, like escape from an abandon ship, this thing is terrible, this going down and I don't see that in the life of Christ when he's here. I see him trying to implement the kingdom

[00:04:14] of heaven on earth, right? Like this whole idea of it's not like abandon earth so we can get to heaven, it's bring more of heaven to earth. It's more like what God has ordained in heaven. And so I think when the church gets into this,

[00:04:32] you know, let's just be safe in the salvation we receive from God. Right. Come down until Jesus comes back or until we die and go be with him, then we miss out on a big aspect of the gospel which is trying to make this world that God created

[00:04:51] and God still loves every day a little more like what God desires it to be. And so that's when we should care about other people and care about, you know, those who've been marginalized those who find themselves outside of the social fabric.

[00:05:07] And I think when you look at the life of Israel it's real clear God has cleared it like they should care for the stranger, the widow, the poor and all of that is a piece of what it means to love God.

[00:05:18] So I don't know where they get that from and I think it's wrong to focus on salvation like salvation from the death, barrel of resurrection of Christ but I think it's wrong to believe that that has no implications or impact on the way we live right now.

[00:05:39] I think that's where the error is. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think there are people, I mean, I know that there are folks who side you know, where let the movement of the Holy Spirit change that, right? That people need, we need more people to follow Christ.

[00:06:00] Then fair housing will kick in. If those folks at the national housing, blah, blah, blah knew Jesus then they would find equity in better housing. That's not always the case too, right? If folks aren't taught like this is, you know

[00:06:22] this is like a way in which you look at your faith and you work in this housing thing, there's something wrong with this. And I'm gonna have a scripture verse to match this but there's something that's not right with it. If people aren't taught from the church,

[00:06:41] we're bound to say that if this is a space to be in they will definitely edit their action in faith. There was a young emcee that you know if I said his name from Chicago, rapping at the house on a regular,

[00:06:58] went to Columbia College and he was like, if you put anything in front of the gospel it's not the gospel. Social gospel or anything else like that. He was adamant about that. And I would like, okay, I got you. I got you.

[00:07:13] So is there not any room for Christ's social image impact in the gospel? And he kept going back and forth with that same adage that let's just get more people saved. Let's get more people become Christian, get more people Christian then they'll because of Christ

[00:07:34] and the power God in their life, man they definitely will stop beating up people. The police will stop shooting people that are like in a cars and situations. They'll hire more people of color at these places. They'll definitely, you know what I'm saying?

[00:07:49] It's like there's an automatic assumption and understanding that there needs to be no teaching or no realization how that life is fleshed out in Christ when these injustices happen. History does not back that statement up at all, right? Like when you look at most of the marginalization

[00:08:13] oppression, colonization and ills in the world is done by people of faith in the name of their God. Like it doesn't, so the assumption that just because someone has an encounter with God that it is automatically going to change the way

[00:08:37] that they interact with other human beings is a falsity because we see it over and over again that it takes discipleship, it takes training, it takes people to be able to see the world through somebody else's lens for that to actually be

[00:08:51] like the truth for them to stop. So, you know, to just assume that, and this is what I always say, if you think that person that works in the housing department if they get to know Jesus, then they're just gonna stop doing the things

[00:09:05] that they've been doing and now do something different. You feel to realize the power structures that make up their job. They're being obedient to someone else who's telling them what to do. So what they're gonna do is they come to know Jesus and say, oh, it's not me.

[00:09:19] It's this person above me who needs to know Jesus. So now we gotta wait for them to know Jesus. And then that person is gonna say, no, it's not me. It's the person above me that tells me to do this and then they got you.

[00:09:28] So we'll keep passing the buck along, waiting on people for everybody to know Jesus for something to change versus those of us who have power and influence in whatever sphere we have recognizing that we have to use it for the kingdom of God right now.

[00:09:45] So yeah, it's clear that that stuff doesn't work, man. It's true. I mean, the thing is, is that, especially with the young guy dealing with this deal, right? You can hold onto that. You can hold on to it, man and really be gun hold and move it.

[00:10:08] And then when everything hits the fan in your life, everybody. Then you like, maybe there is a social gospel. I'm locked up in jail and I need to find me a, I can't find a Christian lawyer who, or this lawyer is too busy sharing the gospel

[00:10:31] with everybody to deal with my case. He's trying to share the gospel to the officer, to the front desk. I'm back in his clink. Give me, I'm going to extreme. Every time I call him to come and talk about my case, all he says is don't worry.

[00:10:46] You guys born, died, he was buried and he resurrected. And I'm hearing, I'm hearing bringing in the sheaths in the background. I'm bringing in the sheaths, bringing in the sheaths. So I know, but it's like, when things hit the fan with this young brother,

[00:11:13] he came back around and apologized to me. He was like, man, Pastor Phil, I'm sorry, man. I was just, he was just reckless with it. And An anchor of that kind of discipleship is that it is so pervasive that what happens when people come to their realization

[00:11:32] is that they don't know what to do with their faith. Because that was the lens of which they saw God through. They don't usually come back. There might be some who do, who come back and go, oh man, I should have listened to you.

[00:11:45] There's a different way to walk this thing. Most of them go, I'm done. This Jesus stuff is fake. Right? Am I lying? Most of them, most of them. And if you look at those guys now, most of them ain't walking with the Lord at all.

[00:11:58] You know what I mean? And it's like, that's the danger of that that kind of singular minded discipleship that doesn't have a holistic mindset is that when life hits in the fan, you know, like, you just don't know what to do with it. And rather than saying,

[00:12:14] oh, there's another way to think about this. Right. Yes, I'm with Jesus. I'm done with God. And that's so dangerous. Now I'm gonna say this, man. And I'm gonna put some issues on this. I have experienced, and I'm saying this, I'm trying to put some weight on it

[00:12:29] so folks don't bug out. 36 years of pastoring from 87 full time ministry, working with young people in the block in a local church. I have seen a big disparity when it comes to how faith socially, practically is lived out with the black church compared to the white church.

[00:12:47] And what I mean by that, I mean there's only one church where the African American worship and the black way worship, African white way worship, I'm talking about practice of life. And what I'm saying is, is when not even a social issue but something happens with the leadership,

[00:13:02] leadership falls, leadership ethically something more. And a leadership owns it. White church goes straight into corporate mode. They go into, up don't even look at this church, don't drive by here. You are not even, don't, we got the police out front. Oh my God.

[00:13:20] And there's some black church that have adopted that. They made the particular pastor, we know when a situation happened with some leaders in his church, wouldn't let him even in the church doors cut off his insurance, everything. You know, and it's like,

[00:13:34] there is, and so on one end, African American church will extend grace, sometimes to a fault. To a fault, yeah. A fault. I mean, I've been in the church in our neighborhood, where a mama said, in the middle of church during prayer time,

[00:13:51] my son shot him seven times. And I wanna apologize and praise God for it. Like that's the rawness in the real, first of all, for her to be able to do that. I mean, that's, I mean, the man who got shot seven times was embarrassed about it.

[00:14:07] It brought up more issues, but it was like, and I don't know if she felt she knew, but I'm like, another way, oh my God, oh my God, what she's talking? Oh my God, oh my God, is her son arrested? What's going on?

[00:14:18] It would have been a whole situation. But in some space, her own healing, but in the other guy who got shot, it was like, but I'm saying in the black church, we got that. Like, it could have been her son, but here he is,

[00:14:31] here he is in court right now, but he wanna say something, say it, say it. Man, that's my badge, yo. I was on the perks, whatever. We engage that, right? There's, I think there's a reality of what we have been through, right, what we have been through,

[00:14:49] knowing that we needed some extension and some help and support, that we extend that to others. So I say that, it seemed like when a people group is a void or avoidance of what it is, the challenges of life or they've crystallized it into this particular box

[00:15:07] or the case is, when that stuff clashes, oh my God, we gotta go straight to protection mode. And when one group, when it's up clashes, we go right into care mode, right into grace mode. We go right into, right into, I mean, prayerfully there's some great accountability

[00:15:21] but you can't be in this role of leadership. I mean, we're gonna be with you. We walk in with you, you know what I'm saying? We got people in church right now who divorce or gone through, and they still in church together. They got shared kids

[00:15:34] and I'm not just saying that's only for the Black church but I'm just saying there's an extension of that that balances out. I'll go back to the social gospel piece of that piece, right? And it's just a mystery that like, why is this church so rigid?

[00:15:49] Even one church I work with, I don't work with, but one church said, hey, situation with their pastor, we didn't handle that like Christians. That was cold. It was like, we ended like a more deal, right? Like, because who knows what healing is needed

[00:16:10] in the resource of your church being a healing force of a person who's fallen for them in their own humanity, you know? And being able to love them on them in that space. There's no harm in that. I mean, there's grieving. I mean, get the grieving,

[00:16:25] but just challenging. I mean, I think, you know, and I know we probably got to, whoo boy this good conversation. Yeah, yeah, we can, we're gonna come back in a second. This idea of when the church is more of an organization than it is an organism,

[00:16:40] when it's more about protecting the institution than it is loving the people there. And I think that jumping to protection mode, because we're not protecting any person, we're protecting this institution. We're protecting this thing that was built that would have been more important structure

[00:16:56] than the people who built it. So that's the danger. Yeah, right though. You listen to Church on the Block, we're real talk about hip hop, the church of the streets. We're in the part two of this section about what's the church's social responsibility?

[00:17:10] And we have in the house y'all, Dr. Jonathan Brooks, right now. I'm saying it right now. He has been working on his doctor the last three years or so, there's been three years. And a part of our discussion about the church's social responsibility,

[00:17:27] about what he's written his thesis or doctoral dissertation on. And so we're gonna dive into that because it's a unique angle. And the question really is how the African-American church and African-Americans could see this role, the church playing. So Doc, break it down to us

[00:17:48] as we unpack what you're talking about. Absolutely. What I'm trying to get people to realize is we've been going for the stepping and providing air for the century of oppression, pain, and harm done to African-Americans in this country. However, when you look at the essence

[00:18:22] of what it means to be a Christian, at our core, we are called to be people of repair. Because ultimately salvation cannot happen without repentance and repentance cannot happen without repair. No one would ever say that somebody was beating you up, like punching you in the face,

[00:18:44] hitting you, kicking you out of use on the ground, all that good stuff. And then they look down and say, oh man, this is wrong. My bad. And then they just stop. Like everything would be good. You'd be like, all right, cool.

[00:18:55] Like nobody's gonna pat you on the back for just stopping the offense. It's not until you help them up off the ground, like bandage their wounds, like try to make a restitution or some kind of a payment for what you've caused that we actually know you've repented

[00:19:13] and turned away from that act. And so I think at the core of who we are, repairs and so church should be leading the way. So we should be leading the way as it pertains to repairing the world, repairing the injustices, the systemic issues of the world.

[00:19:38] And do you think then on the flip side that the reason that the church or the reason that the world is in the situation it is now or parts of the world or all the world is because the church has not been in that bold capacity.

[00:19:56] Or do you think it once was and it faded away or maybe even the African-American church? Yeah, to be honest with you, I think the church in its infancy, like even in acts, was all about living in a certain way. When you wanna know why the church grew

[00:20:16] in its infancy, the church didn't grow because of people's sharing of the gospel as much as we wanna believe that. But when you look at the book of Acts, it's the way they lived that was entitled all through Acts 2.

[00:20:28] It's talking about them being obedient to breaking the bread to fellowship, to the apostles teaching, to going to each other's homes, to sharing all of their resources, making sure nobody was left in need. It was all of this like amazing ways

[00:20:50] that they lived in society that was counter-cultural to the society around them. When people were sick in traditional times during the Second Temple period after Jesus, you got kicked out of the city. You had leprosy, you got kicked out of the city.

[00:21:05] Well, what caused Christianity to grow was they would welcome folks into the community, take care of them even if they knew everybody was getting sick and dying. Right? And what is this? Where people are taking care of each other. I may not understand this religion all the way,

[00:21:24] but I like what they live in. And then the Bible said 3,000 people added to their numbers, they by the time they added. This is what we've lost. Just as I searched for, we've lost in general. We believe it's more than we say what we do.

[00:21:44] And I'm trying to push it back to recognize this is what we do and then people will care. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The question then is that's the case the church is to be the prayer of the breach. Church hasn't done it. Why has that not been a priority?

[00:22:06] I mean, when I look at the black church, I know, and I have this thing, like I don't believe in the black church in a context of that moment, of that repair role. At one time because it's all we had was us

[00:22:20] because we can't even go drink water nowhere. And I know I'm not trying to be the dead horse of people like, well, we always talk about civil rights. Well, in some era, we had to come together. Like we is us and we had to find a way

[00:22:33] to be that healing force and even above our own pain. Like even the civil rights, it's always like the marginalized folks got to show the majority. This is how y'all treating us and the actual treat is like this and we're gonna fight and fight and fight

[00:22:48] until y'all get it. It seemed like versus folks saying, dang, that's both until stuff showed up on TV and everything else like that. But it's one of them kind of things where that shift happened. My dad always talked about segregation, messed up all things with black folk

[00:23:04] because count basions to come down here and play and we can live on the hotel downtown. But in some regards, is that the same way the church has done too? Like especially the African American church is like, okay, we comfortable now,

[00:23:17] we can go anywhere, we can buy anything. And all those things are great. I'm not dissing them and I'm grateful for that. But as it pertains to serving and coming alongside those who are, the least of these, those who are marginalized, those who have and are constantly

[00:23:36] be down, systemically be down from their own trauma and own stuff that they have in the midst of things. So it's one of those kind of things like the comfort may cause folks to, I don't know, turning into gimmicks. You know what, is any real movement happening

[00:24:03] because of that lack of pain. Like when you got pain, you figure out how to lose weight, I gotta do. You know, there's another, but because of the lack of that pain or the lack of recognizing the way the pain is coming now

[00:24:18] differently than straight in your face, then it's one of these kind of things that you wonder if there's even a care about it. And then on top of that, right? We take it another level like, you got something cats who care only

[00:24:34] because there's a grant dollars for it. I'm gonna care, like do this without the grant. Like clean the community up, just clean it, just get some trash bag and throw them away and be done. Versus like we need a grant to get the trash bags into rakes.

[00:24:49] Man, buy some rakes. But use your hands, don't use the rakes. Just pick up stuff, whatever. You know, just, you go to another level of I need this to happen in order for me to act on it. You know, it's just, so anyway, I just say why?

[00:25:06] Why do you think that thread is there that that hasn't been even a conviction of people's hearts? Yeah. When I answer that question, Phil, it's actually the cornerstone of my thesis is that repair, I'm keep using this word repair. I haven't got to reparation yet.

[00:25:23] I'm using this word repair because according to the story of Zacchaeus, which is my like founding passage for my thesis, you got to remember, if you know the story of Zacchaeus, Jesus invites himself over to Zacchaeus house. Zacchaeus climb up in a tree.

[00:25:40] You know, we say, watch that kids was a wee little man and a wee little man was he? You know, that whole story. But Jesus says, hey, I'm coming to your house. Right, Zacchaeus come down, I'm coming to your house. Not Zacchaeus, would you come over

[00:25:53] I want to talk to you. Not Zacchaeus, you know, is it all right if I come by? No, this dude's trying to hide. He don't want Jesus to know because he don't want him asking no questions about his bogus way of taking money from people

[00:26:07] by being attached to the elected. He don't want to deal with his own sin. He don't want to deal with the oppression. He don't want to deal with the fabric of injustice that his very nature embodies. And Jesus says, you ain't hiding for me.

[00:26:22] I'm coming to your house. Okay. So the first thing we see here is this self-invitation by Jesus into this man's life. He says, I got to intrude. I gotta come in and shake up something in your world or you're never gonna change.

[00:26:37] Like you're intrigued by me but not intrigued enough to come out and ask me what you should be doing. You hiding in the tree. So it's this idea of inviting himself over. And then he interrogates him at the table. Zacchaeus, you know, he asked, hey yo,

[00:26:50] why you was in a tree? Zacchaeus like, oh man, well, you know, I'm short and nobody want to let me see you. And he like, oh, why you just ask people you're getting the front? Like, well, you know, people don't really like me. I'm a tax collector.

[00:27:01] So, you know, I don't got to get rep. Oh, it's the tax collector. That's the problem. Okay, people don't like your job. That's tough. He like, well, maybe sometimes I cheat people out by charging them more than they actually expose the cost in taxes and stuff.

[00:27:13] And so people don't like it. And I got kind of wealthy from it. And so she's like, oh, okay, that's the problem. And then it says that he stands up at the table. He's the table that says, okay, Lord, fine.

[00:27:24] I am going to give half of my money to the poor. You would think in that moment, Jesus will go, he got it. Now he gets it. Like in order for him to really follow me, he's got to care for the poor,

[00:27:40] but Jesus don't say nothing to him. And so in my mind Zacchaeus now has to go and make good on his promise to Jesus. He has to go give half of his money to the poor. All these people he'd arrive.

[00:27:52] But when he goes to their crib, you know what he realizes? Oh, wait a minute. Not only did I steal from them, but I've caused some generational pain. I stole from grandmama. I stole from cousin. I stole from mama.

[00:28:07] And now they got a legacy of poverty based off of me or crew and wealth off of their backs. So then he comes back to Jesus and he says, hey, you know what Jesus? I realized I can't just give half of my money to the poor.

[00:28:20] I got to give back four times as much as what I stole. And then Jesus says, now you got it. Now Zacchaeus salvation has come to this house because you two are a son of Abraham. For I came to seek and to save the lost.

[00:28:36] Why do I tell you your story? I tell you that story because it's not until Zacchaeus makes reparation that Jesus says salvation has entered his house. Reparation is a matter of salvation, which means it's a matter for every Christian, no matter your race, no matter your class,

[00:28:54] no matter your gender, no matter your social location. All of us at some point have done something in which we need to repair and make repair for. And therefore if repair doesn't become our paradigm for which we live out of,

[00:29:08] then we'll spend our lives pointing fingers at one another talking about, you know, oh, how this group of people did us wrong or this group of people did us wrong. And now they owe us and men, old women and white people owe black folks

[00:29:26] and we all owe Native Americans and we'll spend our time pointing fingers. But if we will recognize that we are all guilty because Jesus said I came to seek and save the lost. The moment you're no longer lost, you've lost your salvation.

[00:29:42] The moment you don't recognize that you still need Jesus because you're still messing stuff up. And this is what I love about Isaiah 58. If you read Isaiah 58, one of the very things that Jesus said, I mean God says in Isaiah 58, is he says, yo,

[00:29:59] if you would stop pointing fingers at one another, if you would stop blaming, if you would stop acting as if, you know, one group of people is wrong, one group of people is right and you would just recognize that we all need God.

[00:30:14] Then you will change the way you live. Then I won't be worried about your, whether you sing in worship songs to me and I accept them. You won't be worried about that. If you'll just turn away from the oppression, the yoke of oppression,

[00:30:26] if you'll take away the pointing of the finger of scorn and speaking of wickedness or slander and promises, then your light will rise in the darkness. Then the Lord will guide you, satisfy you and strengthen you. Then the people of God will rebuild the ancient ruins,

[00:30:41] will raise up the age old foundations. They will be called Reparers of the Breach and restores the streets with dwellers. Ultimately, when you are about repair, no matter who you are, then salvation's in your house. If we did that feel, no matter who we are,

[00:30:59] everybody would be in the, everybody would be in the work of repair, no matter what. So that means even us as black folks who have been swimming in white supremacy the whole, since we got brought over here, right? When you decide, oh man, I went to college,

[00:31:16] I don't have to live in a hood no more. I'm moving out to the suburbs, getting my goodie goodies. We are just as guilty for falling prey to what white supremacy told us. Whether we did it intentionally or not, we are still guilty

[00:31:30] and we are responsible for repair. And that's my thesis. Everybody is called to be a repairer of broken walls. Everybody is called to be restores streets with dwellers. Some of us need to do it around race, some of us need to do it around gender,

[00:31:45] some of us need to do it about social locations, some of us need to do it about sexual orientation, some of us need to do it about, we all have repair work to do. And if we come from that theme, we will stop pointing fingers

[00:31:57] and we'd actually become the people of God that we call to be. Boom, I'm done. Come on, jump back in. I mean, the depth of that man, I know it's been in your heart and what you've been living for years and it's been evident, right?

[00:32:15] Evidently preaching, speaking, traveling. And that's what makes you such a dynamic preacher teacher because it comes from the heart, heart, right? And it's been a part of your own impact, how you've been impacted by that and how you haven't been impacted by that.

[00:32:29] And that void causes it to be like, there's something missing with how I understand how we live this thing out with Christ. This church on the block, we'll talk about hip hop, the church on the streets. We'll be right back with more

[00:32:40] about what it means to be that healing force. Yo, we are back, man. This is Pastor Phil Church on the Block. We're Pastor Jay. Real talk about hip hop, the church on the streets, holy culture radio, man, we are enjoying this discussion.

[00:32:53] Now we're gonna take it to a particular issue. An issue can be controversial, but it's not controversial in some cultures. Some cultures see this as a thing, like this is supposed to happen because of all that they've gone through and experienced.

[00:33:08] But it can be touchy when black folks talk about it, right? In a context of a thing. And one of the reasons, I'm tiptoeing around it now because I'm throwing a lot back to Jay. He's gonna break it down. One reason I think it's an issue,

[00:33:21] anytime it's this way with black folk is because America has never really owned its actions towards black people. In light of recognizing slavery as an issue, recognizing it's issue in all of the systemic problems and the reaping of it, you know, America.

[00:33:45] I mean, just now, not too many years ago, these companies that had built on the backs of slaves and folks need to get your attention and they listed all the names of these companies. But that should have already been owned if it's gonna be a real healing force.

[00:34:01] So I'm gonna top talking about around the issue, but Jay, take what you've been talking about and bring up the subject of another heart of your dissertation. Yeah. So of course I've been talking about the theme of repair and how repair I think is central to Christian faith

[00:34:24] when we're asked what do we do, man? We as Christians, we remain where we are, you know, fight for the Lord. We repent and turn away from what we know is sinful. We resist any system of structure that against God's way

[00:34:37] and then we repair stuff that we mess up. Like it's clearly who we are. But in American Christianity, it's clear that that repair on the backs of the church has to do first and foremost, in my opinion, with America's biggest and most original sin, which is enslavement,

[00:34:54] is bringing people over as shadow and treating them less than human. And this is no slight to our native brothers and sisters as well who I think deserve just as much for the fact that this land was stolen out from underneath them viciously.

[00:35:17] But as we talk about African-Americans in this country, man, like we literally are the only ones over here by force, period. And what bugs me the most is the ways that Christianity, especially, but a lot of religions were interwoven into this chattel slavery system

[00:35:40] that we know of as antebellum slavery in America. It does not happen without the church's endorsement. And not only the church's endorsement but without the church's financing and without the church's participation. And because of that, more than anything, if repairs at the center of our theological concepts,

[00:36:02] then reparation ought to be at the center of our mission to work as the American church. And a lot of people say, well, that's white church stuff, Pastor Jay. Like they the ones who did it don't disagree with you at all, right?

[00:36:17] And so, but here's where the problem is. The problem for me is that the oppressor should never be the one making decisions about how the oppressed receive repair. And so if the white church is the ones that were the ones making the oppression happen,

[00:36:37] if they were the ones making enslavement happen, then it should be the ancestors of the enslaved who are telling them how repairs should happen, which brings black churches right in the mix of this reparations conversation if it's gonna be church-based.

[00:36:55] And so a couple things that I want to recognize, man, first and foremost, in 1790 in the United States, there were 692,567 slaves held. This is 1790. Think about how many more years of slavery we have. In today's value, that's $5,500 million worth of enslaved people. That's 1790, right?

[00:37:20] All right, so I just need us to recognize how much it grows. Banks and credit unions were issued $25,700,000 worth of mortgages on enslaved Africans. That's just in Louisiana. That's what I'm saying. What I'm trying to get you is to understand the breadth of these numbers,

[00:37:45] that $29,376,000 was the value of cotton produced by enslaved African-Americans in 1872. Where am I getting that? America does not have enough money to pay us back. It's not possible. They don't. So we have to be the ones to say what we will take

[00:38:09] doesn't mean they get off the hook on paying us back. There's money that's involved, financial, but it's deeper than that because you can't pay us enough financially for what we will work. So there have been different people who put different financial connotations on the Taniisi Coates.

[00:38:28] Others have done good work around like figuring out an actual number. But I wanna push us, especially as I'm talking about the church, there are examples of churches that have stepped up and said, hey, we have enslaved people actually

[00:38:40] like in our church annals who were used as tithes and offering in our churches. We have history of this stuff and they've decided they have to do something about it. Our girl, Kim and Yuhuan, who actually been on our show, she's a great actress, all right,

[00:38:57] reparations all over the world. She speaks to the UN all the time. But what she said was is that religious reparations is a big deal. She said Catholic and Protestant Christians have where the architects and primary vehicles through which child slavery was instituted and used theological grounds

[00:39:19] such as wicked abuses of scripture like the curse of ham to allow it to happen. So reparations, financial reparations are not only required, but they're also not sufficient enough. We need things around self-sufficiency, mental restitution, generational compensation, rehabilitation, satisfaction, and my favorite thing she says is cessation.

[00:39:41] And what does she mean by cessation? She wants guarantees not through amendments but through laws that it will never happen again. Right now all we have are amendments on the books that will stop us from ever being enslaved. And the 13th amendment is the one we all know

[00:39:59] because not only is it only amendment but then it makes a clause that says unless you're convicted of a crime which is how we get mass incarceration. So cessation should be, there has to be laws, not amendments. Put on the books that will make sure

[00:40:15] it'll never happen again and we need to have opportunities to name what those are for us as African-Americans. We should be in charge of this. Now the church part for me is this. The bottom line is economic justice is not a conversation we have in our churches.

[00:40:32] We talk about tithing, we talk about giving but we do it from a generosity lens. I wanna challenge the generosity lens in a church and change generosity into repair. If a church is going to give to the Firehouse Community Arts Center

[00:40:51] for all of the amazing work they do in the neighborhood, if it is done out of generosity framework, they're gonna say, Pastor Phil, would you please write a grant? And would you tell us all of the ways that you're gonna use the money

[00:41:03] and then would you report on it and give us an example, give us reports of how you spent it. And then before we ever give you more money you gotta bring us in, let us see all the work you done pat us on the back and thank you

[00:41:14] for all the great work that we've helped you and then we might consider giving you more. That's generosity. But if this was a typical Christian realm where the church hadn't oppressed people for centuries, then maybe we could give out of generosity.

[00:41:31] But churches don't have the space for generosity because of the atrocities that were done since its inception in America. So we only should give out of repair which means like Zacchaeus, we shouldn't ask any questions. We need to just give it to Pastor Phil

[00:41:46] and say, Pastor Phil, you do what you do and you create whatever system of destruction you're gonna do to make sure you accountable and use the money the way you wanna do it. We have no say so. Our responsibility as the church is to fund

[00:41:59] because this money is not generous, it's owed to you. Right, right. It's your money anyway. We're giving you back what was actually yours and we can never pay you back, right? So since we can never pay you back financially we also need to come in and volunteer.

[00:42:15] We also need to come and help fix your building. We also need to come and buy property in the neighborhood and then say, hey, this is yours. Like use it to house young men beyond the money we give to the firehouse.

[00:42:29] Only way that happens is through the way I talked about Zacchaeus coming incarnationally closer to the problem. So the church has a huge debt to pay for its treatment of African Americans in this country. And my thesis for the way we should fix it

[00:42:50] is that no longer is generosity even a framework in the American church. It's not part of it. And the way black churches have to get involved is we have to now become the conduits in which reparations come to our neighborhoods.

[00:43:04] We don't let white people tell us how they're gonna repair. They give it to us and then we repair our own communities. So we're all responsible. I got repair work to do. They got repair work to do. The firehouse has repair work to do.

[00:43:17] We all have work to do and it's all through a repair lens and it changes the framework. So what I'm trying to do, Pastor Phil, is have you never have to write another grant in your life? Right, right, right, right. Because you're not asking for generosity.

[00:43:31] You're telling them you're inviting yourself over to their house the way Jesus did to Zacchaeus and say, you owe, bro. Okay, so I believe ultimately that if we do this, the church can be the first place where we see real tangible reparations on a large scale.

[00:43:51] I'm not talking about these small spaces we see in like certain cities or counties. I'm talking about on a large scale nationally, we could move the needle and give tangible examples of what reparations could look like. So much so that the government would have to follow

[00:44:05] because the church is making them look bad. I mean, the Jewish word, the phrase, to kud olam, right? For paying the world is almost, I see it practiced when I talk to my Jewish brother, they get 40% of the income, something, but it is out of that repair.

[00:44:32] It is not out of a generosity piece, right? And yet the people got issues and the whole thing that's going on now with Israel and Palestine and Hamas and everything. The principle is practice. I mean, I talked to one brother who said,

[00:44:55] we give $9 million to this eye doctoral space, and we give them that money and that covers all the salary, all the lights and gas. So they're straight. They can repair the world because they don't have to. Now, if they wanna go over and above that

[00:45:13] and find a grant to find dilated pupils that are on the left side, that's on them. But the core of what they need is covered, you know? And that just seemed so much more easy to breathe. When I said that, it just makes a lot of sense

[00:45:31] to do it in that way, you know? And you should never ever have to worry about if the memory of one of the kids you've worked with is gonna be honored. Right. You know, it's kind of like we never have to wonder

[00:45:47] if someone who was killed in a Holocaust is going to be in the museum. Wow. You feel what I'm saying? Like given that as a part of this atrocity, we're going to search, even if we don't know their names, we're gonna put up like memorials for the unnamed.

[00:46:08] We have to beg for our kids to be treated as human when something happens to them. Knowing that everything they experience in this world is on the backs of the oppressive systems that this country brought us here. Right, right. It's clear. Right, right.

[00:46:24] So all of those things are part of reparation, right? Like you should never have to worry about it. Every single one of y'all that's working in violence prevention should have a memorial guard like that guy there, EJM. It should be, it should be, yeah. All of them.

[00:46:39] Right, right, right, right, right. If you've ever been to, I mean, one of my favorite places to go is Rwanda in African country because they have memorials everywhere, everywhere, and I'll never forget. Wow. I went into a memorial where like thousands of people were killed in this church

[00:46:58] and they got all the clothing still stacked up, all the bloody clothing. Like it's just sitting in this space piled up. You walk in there and you can't help but feel the anguish and tear. I asked the tour guide, I said, how can you do this every day?

[00:47:13] How can you do this day in and day out? He said, I have to. I have to because it reminds me that the evil that was in the people that did this is in me too. Wow, wow. That's what repair does. You see it, repair does.

[00:47:31] Man, yo, this is church on the block, man. This is good. This is good word. I hope you were challenged by this. Now we got a doctor in the building, so we're not done yet. So we're gonna have to figure out another time to unpack this because practically,

[00:47:45] we're gonna come up with some ideas. I'm just adding this now of what and how we can challenge you in the space that you're in to be that agent of repair in this spot. Church on the block, we'll talk about hip hop at the church in the streets.

[00:47:59] We'll pass it. Jay, we'll see y'all next week. We got some more stuff coming. Yo, it was deep with passage. Jay was talking about, that's why he, Dr. Jay, Dr. Jay. But let me drop these bars on you real quick. While this doctor, Paul, was working in India,

[00:48:18] he had pioneered a treatment of leprosy. He, one time going through the hospital, had laid his hands on a patient's shoulder. The translator then informed the man that the treatment that he had to happen, you know, was gonna happen pretty soon.

[00:48:35] But to the translator's surprise and the doctor's surprise, the man began to shake and muffled sobs. I mean, it was almost uncontrollable sobs. Dr. Paul was like, yo, what did I do to that? Do something wrong? The translator kind of began to squeeze out

[00:48:52] from the patient what was going on. And finally he was able to interpret and he said, no doc. He says he's crying because you put your hand on his shoulder and until you came here, no one had touched him for many years.

[00:49:08] Yo, some of the injustices that we face, some of the complications that are there, especially those in the marginalized community, some folks have never been touched. And we as the people of faith, the followers of Yeshua Hamashiyah, Jesus the Messiah must be willing to do the hard work

[00:49:28] of touching people in those spaces. You wanna pass the field? I'm out of church on the block. That's what we're about. Thank you for listening to Church on the Block, real talk about hip hop, the church and the streets. We're back here same time, same day next week.

[00:49:42] Come with us.