Part 2 | All Things Audio with Ken ”Pooch” Van Druten

[00:00:00] This is The Tech Arts Podcast, where we talk about tech, leadership and all things that

[00:00:11] concern church audio, video and lighting.

[00:00:16] Welcome to The Tech Arts Podcast and the Phone Live Streaming Studios.

[00:00:21] My name is DL, so glad to have you joining us today.

[00:00:25] Have you ever heard of waves, plugins?

[00:00:29] These plugins offer a versatile and reliable toolkit that has earned its place as one of

[00:00:34] the most powerful audio tools in the world.

[00:00:37] We talk waves, plugins on today's church tech tips, so hang on for that.

[00:00:43] Free Giveaway Alert On Today's Podcast, we are giving away two free tickets to the Wave

[00:00:49] Conference and a Sound Bullet.

[00:00:53] So you ask yourself what is a Sound Bullet?

[00:00:55] Now, maybe in a Texas boy and being around bullets and guns, I was kind of drawn to this

[00:01:00] name.

[00:01:01] But essentially the Sound Bullet is a pocket-sized audio tester.

[00:01:07] It's a powerful troubleshooting tool that is robust, reliable and portable.

[00:01:13] Check this out.

[00:01:14] He has the following.

[00:01:15] A signal generator, internal speaker, fan of power checker, XLR input metering, XLR

[00:01:21] cable tester and more.

[00:01:24] You can find out about it at sonic.com that's SO in an ect.com.

[00:01:32] We'll be giving away one of those along with two free tickets to the Wave Conference.

[00:01:39] Never miss out on our free giveaways by liking and subscribing on our YouTube channel or

[00:01:44] our podcasts.

[00:01:46] By doing this, you ensure that you are notified when a new episode drops and you help us

[00:01:51] with all the uh uh uh big word algorithms.

[00:01:58] These algorithms push us into more people's feeds, allowing the Tech Arts Podcast to reach

[00:02:04] more people.

[00:02:05] So speaking of more people, our last episode with pooch hit 27,000 views on YouTube and

[00:02:12] became the second highest listened to podcast.

[00:02:16] It's right behind our podcast episode entitled the most important tech position which hit 33,000

[00:02:24] listens.

[00:02:25] Thank you so much to everyone for helping the Tech Arts Podcast hit those numbers.

[00:02:31] We could not do it without you.

[00:02:33] To tell people more about the Tech Arts Podcast, just send them to the website techartspodcast.com.

[00:02:42] In other news, we are so happy to have a new sponsor.

[00:02:46] DigiCo is now a sponsor of the Tech Arts Podcast.

[00:02:49] That's right, DigiCo is on board with the Tech Arts Podcast.

[00:02:53] So let me tell you about this company.

[00:02:56] From sold out stadiums to intimate live performance venues, sound engineers agree on one thing

[00:03:02] for the best digital mixing consoles for live sound.

[00:03:06] The only name that matters is DigiCo.

[00:03:10] As the recognized worldwide standard for live audio mixing, DigiCo consoles are renowned

[00:03:16] for their industry leading sound quality and ease of use.

[00:03:20] Whether your application is in a church, broadcast, theater, corporate, sports or installed

[00:03:26] sound, DigiCo offers compact and affordable products from the S21 all the way up to the

[00:03:33] pioneering power of the Quantum 852.

[00:03:37] DigiCo delivers the workflow, the feature set and the absolute reliability that the world's

[00:03:43] biggest tours and programs have come to rely upon.

[00:03:47] If you're looking for a sound console, look to DigiCo for your answer.

[00:03:52] For more information on DigiCo go to digiCo.biz.

[00:03:55] That's digiCo.biZ.

[00:03:56] I am so excited to have DigiCo on board as a sponsor.

[00:04:02] We are already in talks of doing some shows together.

[00:04:06] They're putting out some great new content.

[00:04:09] All right, are you ready to win some free stuff?

[00:04:13] You'll find out how on this next segment.

[00:04:15] Let's welcome to the TechArts podcast, the founder of Wave, Ron Procopio.

[00:04:19] Hey, Ron.

[00:04:20] Hello.

[00:04:21] How are you?

[00:04:22] Ron, I have some good news that everyone needs to hang on for.

[00:04:26] We have some free stuff to give away, including free tickets to Wave.

[00:04:31] So don't you tune out, but Ron, for everyone out there who's wondering about Wave, give

[00:04:36] us some details.

[00:04:37] Where is it?

[00:04:38] What is it?

[00:04:39] Who speaking?

[00:04:40] Why should I attend?

[00:04:41] Give us the Deats.

[00:04:42] Yeah.

[00:04:43] I'm trying to sound cool there, the Deats.

[00:04:46] You are so hit.

[00:04:47] I can't even right now.

[00:04:49] My son's going to hear this.

[00:04:50] He's going to be like tad.

[00:04:51] Please.

[00:04:52] It's details.

[00:04:53] Your 46 is details.

[00:04:55] That's awesome.

[00:04:58] Yes, it is a worship audiovisual experience as Wave.

[00:05:02] We are a conference in Expo.

[00:05:04] We'll be in Louisville, Kentucky, September 12 to 14.

[00:05:09] The event is really focused around audiovisual technologies and how are we using them in the

[00:05:14] church?

[00:05:15] How are we increasing engagement?

[00:05:16] So there's a lot of education and exhibits and fellowship that happens at the event.

[00:05:21] Yeah, I mean, I got to tell you guys, I've been to Wave.

[00:05:25] It's big enough that you're able to see manufacturers interact, make some friends.

[00:05:31] But yet it's small enough that it feels comfortable to ask questions in the classes and kind

[00:05:36] of learn and educate yourself.

[00:05:38] Ron, who are some of the speakers that are going to be there?

[00:05:41] Yeah, it's an awesome list.

[00:05:44] We've got some big names like Ben Stapley and Mark McDonald.

[00:05:47] Yourself will be there.

[00:05:50] We've recently added Harold Rubens, audio engineer, man's a legend out there in the Christian

[00:05:57] community.

[00:05:58] Bob Cofflin, director of music at Sovereign Grace has recently joined us.

[00:06:02] Marcel Patillo is going to be joining us.

[00:06:05] So there's some really great people that are doing this work every day.

[00:06:10] And I can tell you everyone I've talked to comes at it from a place in their heart.

[00:06:15] They really all want to be out there helping people grow their churches and their production

[00:06:19] level.

[00:06:20] It's pretty amazing.

[00:06:21] Well I mentioned earlier, I want to give away some free stuff and Wave is included in

[00:06:26] that.

[00:06:27] So we're proud to announce that we are giving away some free tickets to Wave and a sound

[00:06:34] bullet to the first person to email us at information at digitalgreatcommission.org.

[00:06:42] Obviously, Wave is a world-class conference.

[00:06:45] And just for that reason you should email us.

[00:06:47] So we are throwing in the sound bullet as well.

[00:06:50] And you might be saying what is a sound bullet?

[00:06:52] Well, it's a pocket-sized audio tester, essentially a powerful troubleshooting tool that is

[00:06:57] robust, reliable and portable.

[00:07:00] It has the following on it.

[00:07:01] A signal generator, internal speaker, fan of power, checker, XLR input metering, XLR cable

[00:07:08] tester and more.

[00:07:09] You can find out more about it at sonic.com.

[00:07:12] That's SO in in ect.com.

[00:07:17] So to win this free sound bullet and the tickets to Wave, again all you have to do is email

[00:07:22] me at information at digitalgreatcommission.org.

[00:07:29] The first person to email us there will win.

[00:07:32] And that again is if you're listening to us, it's information at digitalgreatcommission.org.

[00:07:39] As a side note, when I get to Wave, I'll also be giving away more sound bullets than some

[00:07:43] other free gifts.

[00:07:44] So you definitely want to sign up and you definitely want to show up.

[00:07:48] So hey, Ron, how do they sign up?

[00:07:51] Very simple.

[00:07:52] Our website, wave-event.co, w-e-event.co.

[00:08:00] Their registration is right on there.

[00:08:02] And I agree, there are so many giveaways.

[00:08:04] On top of even with David's doing, we're giving away the t-shirts, their swag, their stuff

[00:08:10] from all the exhibitors.

[00:08:12] You know, on top of getting free lunch at the sessions and all the education that you

[00:08:17] get.

[00:08:18] It's an amazing conference.

[00:08:19] So you go to wave-event.co.

[00:08:22] And if you want a discount, you can put in the discount code dgcm.

[00:08:28] So not only are we giving away free stuff, but we're also discounting the price.

[00:08:33] So again, that discount code dgcm and you go to wave-event.co.

[00:08:41] Ron, thanks for coming on.

[00:08:42] And telling us about the conference.

[00:08:43] Oh, thank you and I hope to see everybody there in Louisville.

[00:08:46] It's time to talk today's church tech tip.

[00:08:49] I'm so excited about this tip, but it makes for somewhat of an odd podcast today.

[00:08:55] We just talked about the worship audio-visual experience conference or as they call it

[00:09:01] the wave conference.

[00:09:03] Well, today's church tech tip comes from waves audio, the world leading developer of audio

[00:09:10] plugins.

[00:09:11] So waves and waves kind of odd, but kind of cool too.

[00:09:16] As I like to say it, the world aligns on the tech arts podcast.

[00:09:20] All right, enough of my bad dad jokes.

[00:09:24] Let's get right to it and welcome all the way from Israel, Val, Coltler.

[00:09:28] Hey, Val.

[00:09:29] Hi, how are you David?

[00:09:31] How are you guys?

[00:09:32] Very good to hear you hopefully and you can see us hopefully.

[00:09:37] So how are you doing?

[00:09:39] Yeah, we could see you great, man.

[00:09:40] The Val tell us what do you do for waves?

[00:09:43] Okay, so my official position at waves is a product manager.

[00:09:47] I'm a senior product manager with waves.

[00:09:50] I'm working with the waves audio as employee, as a product manager for last 12 years.

[00:09:59] So and I'm specializing in plugins and solutions for the live market, for the live audio,

[00:10:07] for the live shows and events.

[00:10:09] This is what I'm doing.

[00:10:10] Well, I see here, Val in your bio that you have been in the industry for 30 years.

[00:10:16] That means you know what's good and you know what's bad.

[00:10:19] So speaking of good, why waves?

[00:10:22] What makes it so special?

[00:10:24] Well, first of all, let's start from that that waves is actually a pioneer in plug-in

[00:10:33] world.

[00:10:34] So in all of that media, as we know today of the computer processing of the plugins and

[00:10:41] a DSP and everything that is happening technology waves, waves actually pioneered it in

[00:10:50] beginning of 1991.

[00:10:53] So first ever plugin in this world was created by waves audio and it was Q10 which is

[00:11:02] a paragraph equalizer.

[00:11:06] So at the time there was actually no computer that could run the plugin.

[00:11:12] So they built a special computer to run it and present an ability to do it because

[00:11:19] up to then it was only analog audio, audio devices, etc.

[00:11:25] Everyone is familiar with standard analog gear.

[00:11:28] So transferring, conmoving to the digital audio, it was waves who actually started or

[00:11:35] kick started this process from the get-go.

[00:11:38] So in waves since then continuously introduced new tools, new technologies and technologies

[00:11:50] they introduced always been kind of in two two prong solutions.

[00:11:56] One was always connected to the providing an actual tools that can solve a problem, a

[00:12:02] problem solvers.

[00:12:05] And another one was always connected to making your audio better than it's always been

[00:12:11] because it's same thing like in studio, same kind of instruments that you heard in

[00:12:17] studio in analog domain which some of them helped you to resolve the problem but some

[00:12:22] of them when you passed audio through it suddenly, it was become richer, louder, more

[00:12:29] present, more intelligible.

[00:12:33] All of those stuff which is basically glorifying the audio.

[00:12:38] So problem solvers and making sure that your audio is as pretty and as beautiful as it can

[00:12:45] be.

[00:12:46] Both of those stuff started to show up one after another in form of plugins.

[00:12:52] And with time, all of those plugins that been employed in studio only and in studio

[00:12:59] environment waves pretty much pretty fast became kind of de facto standard.

[00:13:05] I did not know that.

[00:13:06] I did not know that waves was basically the inventor of the plugin that came out with the

[00:13:12] very first plugin.

[00:13:13] So if you're watching this and you want the company that is done at the longest and done

[00:13:18] at the best, obviously it's waves.

[00:13:21] They have the most experience when it comes to plugins and things of that nature.

[00:13:24] So today, Val, we're talking about the primary source expander value.

[00:13:30] You told me a story about how that came about.

[00:13:33] Can you tell our audience that story?

[00:13:35] So I will have to go back in time just a little bit because my angle of coming to waves

[00:13:46] is a little bit different than usual because most of the guys who used to work at waves

[00:13:50] being a studio rats, whatever we call it, guys working in studio and broadcast while

[00:13:58] myself I always worked in a live sound.

[00:14:02] I always worked in live events, shows, etc.

[00:14:06] So eventually I met one of the waves guys who said they they very interested to go into

[00:14:15] the live market.

[00:14:17] And for that they want to start working with me because I have quite a lot of experience

[00:14:21] doing live shows.

[00:14:24] And when my kind of first mission, when I came in and started to work for waves, it started

[00:14:31] to go through two churches and places like that to experience myself.

[00:14:37] What it's actually people doing there?

[00:14:40] What's the workflow?

[00:14:42] What's the problems they're facing?

[00:14:44] What can be improved and how we can help them to resolve their problems if they have,

[00:14:52] or kind of make it sound better if they need to because I really know the live shows and

[00:15:00] rock and roll and music and all of the music performances but was a bit less familiar with

[00:15:06] the preachers and stuff.

[00:15:08] So when we went I went to churches and so it's one of the problems I saw basically immediately,

[00:15:15] it's the problem with the feedback especially from the coming from the lectern microphone

[00:15:22] or the wireless microphone that the preacher is employed.

[00:15:26] And especially between the phrases so people were talking and while between the phrases

[00:15:35] and while they're keeping, for example, doing something suddenly Mike was taking off and

[00:15:39] making horrendous noises and basically pulling people out of the very important experience.

[00:15:46] Yeah, the spoken word is the primary goal of what they're trying to do.

[00:15:50] And so the feedback was distracting everything that was going on.

[00:15:54] So as a result we said okay we can come up with a tool, okay we made buncher tools within

[00:16:02] time but this was the first one which kind of kick started the process.

[00:16:07] So you can't understand our thinking and approach to what we actually see so we were not

[00:16:15] sitting in a lab coming up with some weird ideas.

[00:16:18] We're actually going into the field and see what people experience and we're trying based

[00:16:23] on that to provide a solution on an idea how to improve.

[00:16:29] So it's very, very practical based on the real life experience.

[00:16:35] So when we said so the primary goal was that this is the primary focus the pastor, the

[00:16:41] primary source is the word, okay?

[00:16:45] So we came up with a tool which called a primary source expander, okay that's the tool

[00:16:52] we kind of decided to do in the idea of the tool and I share this screen and hopefully

[00:17:00] Dave can tell me if people can see my screen.

[00:17:04] Yeah, we can see a great man so this is the primary source expander that we're looking

[00:17:08] at right now.

[00:17:09] What we see right now right here can you see my mouse also?

[00:17:13] Yeah, wonderful.

[00:17:15] So this is the primary source expander.

[00:17:18] It's a very, very simple tool to activate.

[00:17:21] As you see while I'm talking the blue meter is actually my input level.

[00:17:27] This is what comes into the plugin, okay?

[00:17:31] Now what I can do it's like that as you see on the red here it says range.

[00:17:38] This is basically what it's going to do.

[00:17:41] It's going to if I want to move it and click for example on minus or drag the handle.

[00:17:47] It's going to go to minus six, minus seven, etc.

[00:17:51] What it's going to do so between the phrases when I'm going to stop talking it's going

[00:17:56] to duck the audio my audio by this amount.

[00:18:03] So you're not going to hear it right now because we're not connected in a problem but

[00:18:07] you can see what is going to happen.

[00:18:09] So you see as soon as I start talking the red meter it actually initiates here.

[00:18:16] You see it.

[00:18:18] So what happens is when I'm start to stop talking the audio is actually it's same thing like

[00:18:25] you have your finger on a fader, okay?

[00:18:28] On a pastor's fader and every time he stops talking you're moving the fader by eight dB

[00:18:34] down, okay?

[00:18:35] And then immediately up now we actually saw the guys in the church doing exactly that.

[00:18:42] So with their finger on a fader and trying to follow the pastor and sometimes it's very

[00:18:49] difficult because the speech is very dynamic and it comes and it goes and it's very tiring

[00:18:55] and especially for the volunteer at the church it becomes like instead of actually focusing

[00:19:01] on the matter and on the word they constantly busy trying to ride the fader.

[00:19:08] So this plugin basically what it does, it rides the fader for you.

[00:19:15] Okay?

[00:19:16] So every time I'm start to stop speaking the level goes down by a dB.

[00:19:22] So by the way as a recommendation this is what I usually recommend.

[00:19:26] This is pretty much the value which is reasonable if you want to say something.

[00:19:31] Yeah, I was going to say it not only would help eliminate feedback but I think it would

[00:19:35] reduce noise as well.

[00:19:37] Absolutely.

[00:19:38] Actually this plugin in used right now it's so many applications not only in live churches

[00:19:43] it's used for the podcasters and broadcasts and everything else.

[00:19:47] So every time on the radio, for example the microphone of the MC connects to it and

[00:19:53] every time it speaks they stop speaking it's actually go at the level goes down.

[00:19:57] So all the ambient noise goes down with it.

[00:20:01] For example in a church there's quite a lot of reflections from the walls and the glass

[00:20:12] windows and everything else.

[00:20:14] Right?

[00:20:15] So all of those stuff contribute for example to the general problem of understanding and

[00:20:21] the intelligibility of the words.

[00:20:23] Now by reducing especially those places in between words, between the sentences reducing

[00:20:30] the overall noise and ambient noise and the reflections the intelligibility raises tremendously.

[00:20:39] So finally not only we can hear it without feedback but we actually can hear the words more

[00:20:47] precisely so it's actually two in one.

[00:20:50] And that's pretty much in a nutshell what the plugin does of course we can tweak it even

[00:20:56] more.

[00:20:57] For example there's an internal filter which allows you to focus on the particular instrument

[00:21:03] or if we're talking about vocal that we're talking about these so for example the frequencies

[00:21:11] for the vocal probably more dominant frequencies is around 500 hertz.

[00:21:17] So we can adjust this particular filter to concentrate around that area and now precision

[00:21:28] of the device will be considerably increased.

[00:21:33] Now it's actually reacts only to my voice and in nothing else for example low rumble

[00:21:39] if it's going to be next to me it will not actually even move because of it and it will

[00:21:45] stay closed and it will only react to my specific vocal.

[00:21:49] It's a powerful plugin and that's called the primary source expander so if you guys have

[00:21:55] not used that or heard of that go check it out.

[00:21:58] You can go to waves.com to find out about the primary source expander.

[00:22:05] If you don't know anything about waves go to waves.com and check them out they can also

[00:22:10] get a hold of you by emailing you at val at waves.com is that correct?

[00:22:14] Absolutely.

[00:22:15] Yeah Val would be happy to take your email explain to you how the primary source expander

[00:22:19] works and this is just one of the plugins if you're not familiar with them go check them

[00:22:23] out they have a ton of plugins that help take good content make it better help fix things

[00:22:29] help with feedback reduction as we're seeing today.

[00:22:33] Val we should bring you back and talk more about waves plugins and how to mix with them

[00:22:38] in a way that achieves a rock and mix I mean I'm talking about doing a full hour on this

[00:22:43] stuff and helping people understand how to get the best sound out of each channel would

[00:22:48] you be game for that man?

[00:22:49] Absolutely wonderful idea and we all for it so guys whatever you need will be here for

[00:22:56] you.

[00:22:57] We will make that happen Val thank you for coming on the tech arts podcast.

[00:23:03] Thank you so much for having me appreciate it David I think you all.

[00:23:06] It's almost time for part two of our talk with Ken Pooch van druten get ready to find

[00:23:11] out which audio console he prefers how he puts together a mix does being able to play

[00:23:17] a musical instrument help your front house skills and which beard is he drink on the road.

[00:23:23] I bet I know which beer he doesn't drink.

[00:23:28] Answers to those questions are all coming up right after this word from our sponsors.

[00:23:35] Thank you for listening to the tech arts podcast be sure to tell all your friends about us

[00:23:39] give them the website tech arts podcast dot com to find out more more great content is coming

[00:23:47] up right after this.

[00:23:50] Our main sponsor is digital great commission ministries whether you need help building a

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[00:24:00] here for you because they are a 501 see three donor sponsored organization they come to

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[00:24:46] back to the tech arts podcast now if you haven't listened to part one of our conversation with

[00:24:50] Ken pooch van druten I recommend you go and listen to that pooch talks about a bunch of concepts

[00:24:56] ideas and mixed techniques that will help you.

[00:25:00] But right now it's time to jump into part two of our conversation with pooch we pick up

[00:25:05] with me telling pooch about a lesson I learned from a secular mix engineer and we get pooch's

[00:25:10] thoughts on how putting together a full mix is more important than what each individual

[00:25:16] channel sounds like check it out.

[00:25:19] I used to mix my bass guitar like really fat sounded awesome I would solo it and it just

[00:25:25] sounded really good but in the mix everything just always seemed muddy and so I talked to

[00:25:31] a you know I'd been in the Christian community most of my life and I can't remember his name

[00:25:36] but I talked to somebody in the secular community that was mixing just at a local bar

[00:25:41] and he said hey it is very important that I mix my bass guitar so it fits with my kick drum.

[00:25:49] So when he sold it his bass it sounded bad like it was really thin didn't sound correct

[00:25:56] to me but when he put it with the kick drum it sounded sweet in the full mix of things

[00:26:02] and I think I was like 17 or 18 something like that I wasn't supposed to be in a bar

[00:26:06] but I was and it would he went over that with me it just it revolutionized it kind of

[00:26:13] changed how I thought about how instruments work together with each other.

[00:26:18] Yes.

[00:26:19] Talk a little bit about that talk about how putting everything together is more important

[00:26:24] than each individual instrument.

[00:26:26] That's really great you know I say the same thing all the time if you were to go through

[00:26:35] a virtual playback of my mixes and solo up individual things you would be like wow that's

[00:26:44] pretty crappy sounding you know or whatever.

[00:26:48] And the reason is that I'm making compromises to fit other things in the frequency spectrum

[00:26:54] you know there's a lot going on when you're talking about trying to make a bunch of inputs

[00:27:00] all work together.

[00:27:03] And especially when we were talking about bass guitar you know that range from 80 Hertz

[00:27:08] to like 250 is the hardest part of mixing in my opinion.

[00:27:15] Getting that part right in a large scale line array PA is the most difficult part of

[00:27:23] what I do and trying to make things be intelligible and things you can pick out in that particular

[00:27:32] frequency range is tough it's tough it's really hard.

[00:27:38] The way that I think about it is this nothing gets to share the same frequency space or

[00:27:46] stereo space or depth space there's three things so stereo depth and frequency space those

[00:27:54] are the three things that are going on in my head as I create a mix.

[00:27:58] So in other words if the focus of a kick drum the center frequency of a kick drum is 60

[00:28:05] Hertz nothing else gets to get 60 Hertz nothing else gets to be prominently addressed at

[00:28:14] 60 Hertz.

[00:28:15] So I actually move like maybe the bass guitar is its center is also 60 but on purpose with

[00:28:23] EQ I move the center of that bass guitar to 80 so that it is not sharing the same frequency

[00:28:30] space.

[00:28:32] And then thinking about the same process I never ever put if something is at 10 o'clock

[00:28:38] say guitar is at 10 o'clock there's nothing else gets 10 o'clock other things get 10 15

[00:28:46] 30 but they don't ever get 10 and so in my own brain there's this width right so you're

[00:28:53] just citing where things can go in the stereo width but you're also deciding frequency

[00:28:59] center wise what gets to be the star.

[00:29:04] So for instance you know snare drum I love big fat snare drums and I love like 100 or

[00:29:11] 125 in the bottom of a snare drum.

[00:29:13] I love that but that's also where a lot of things exist you know it's the you know the

[00:29:22] middle of a bass guitar it's the bottom of regular guitars it's maybe even some vocals

[00:29:28] sometimes you know so juggling that is is a little bit hard but oftentimes I say no snare

[00:29:36] drum gets that 125 because that is the big thick great sounding snare drum that I want

[00:29:44] so now I'm going to shift other things to be higher so I'll high pass my guitars so

[00:29:49] they're a little bit higher than above that 125 range.

[00:29:54] And so the third concept is depth and that's a little bit it's a little bit more advanced

[00:30:02] but thinking about putting things using artificial reverb and effects to place things further

[00:30:10] away from you or nearer to you is I think about that in the same way that I'm thinking about

[00:30:18] the frequency and the stereo width so you know if vocal if you want vocal right up front

[00:30:25] in your face nothing else gets to be there.

[00:30:29] Everything else has to be behind it and surrounding it and so that includes you know predile and

[00:30:39] and length of reverbs on certain things to make them feel like they're further away.

[00:30:47] It's a it's a little bit more of a difficult concept and it's something that I later on in my

[00:30:52] career like kind of one day I went aha okay I understand it but but I just wanted to share with

[00:30:59] you those are my three things that's really going through my head the entire time that I'm creating

[00:31:04] a mix it's all about not sharing the same space.

[00:31:09] Yeah that's awesome so what console do you prefer to accomplish those three things on

[00:31:17] I'm a big fan of digico that's kind of my favorite but I'm just curious what do you like mix

[00:31:21] our what's your go-to? So I own an SD7 or a quantum 7 and I purchased it because I thought

[00:31:30] I think that it is the best console out there and the reason that I like it so much is

[00:31:37] that it's the most transparent console of all the consoles that are out there.

[00:31:46] The Big E's you know Yamaha and avid and you know whatever all of those consoles in the front end

[00:31:53] part of them have some sort of coloration which makes them sound this is an interesting

[00:32:01] conversation because it makes them sound individually if you bring up a bass guitar on an avid

[00:32:06] console it has coloration harmonic distortion you know that kind of things you bring up that bass

[00:32:12] guitar by itself and you you go wow okay it's warm and it's pretty and it's great and whatever

[00:32:20] but like the conversation that you said earlier when you start adding things together that have

[00:32:26] already been colored on that front end to me it it gets difficult to manage that so what I'm looking

[00:32:36] for is something that is really transparent and then I can decide what things I want to color

[00:32:45] and that's why you know I always say digiko is an amazing console and by itself it's amazing

[00:32:51] but to me the digiko and waves thing together is what makes the package amazing because the waves

[00:33:01] is the harmonic distortion part of this right like I can make leave things clean but I can make

[00:33:08] a few things have that warm harmonic distortion combine all that together and to me the summing of

[00:33:16] that is better than anything else that's out there but I'll say to you you know listen I've had

[00:33:23] success on the SSL console I've had success certainly the latest Yamaha stuff is really great

[00:33:31] and some of their built-in you know Rupert Neve stuff is fantastic so you know it's I always say

[00:33:41] it's not the tool it's the full you know so it is about you know your mixing abilities and honestly

[00:33:51] you could give me any one of those consoles and I could get through it but because I've been a

[00:33:56] digiko user for so many years now I'm faster on digiko and can get you a better result quicker

[00:34:03] so PA wise what's your PA of choice um that's funny you know right now my PA of choice is cohesion

[00:34:13] made by Claire it's it's a proprietary box so it's not something you can just buy off the shelf

[00:34:18] um it's it's just a really really great box but when you're talking about off the shelf boxes

[00:34:27] um there are you know all the standards that everyone goes for you know I really like the new

[00:34:37] Panther box I like that box I like um you know DNBs got some really pretty amazing stuff going on

[00:34:49] you know L acoustics of course um you know L acoustics is uh is this one of those PAs where you

[00:34:56] know you know what you're gonna get um you know I I L acoustics probably hates me for saying this

[00:35:04] but I've said this before it's like to me it's the McDonald's of PA like you go there and you're

[00:35:10] like okay I know what I'm getting this is you know K1 and it and it sounds amazing it does everything

[00:35:17] that I wanted to do um but I tend to be more of a um I like boutique PAs a little better something

[00:35:27] um like Adamson for instance so Adamson you know I like I want sound guys to be standing there

[00:35:35] and look at each other and go dude that snare drum holy crap or dude that guitar or dude that vocal

[00:35:43] or you know whatever is shines in that box and there tends to be boutique more PAs that kind of do

[00:35:52] that as opposed to your you know L acoustics or or DNB or you know whatever the the latest

[00:35:59] greatest thing is yeah I like to tell churches you know if you're playing in the in the

[00:36:04] Meyer DNB L acoustics world you know Martin there's some others Adamson yeah

[00:36:09] you're in a good place you are to me it's like ice cream right like it's going to the ice cream

[00:36:15] truck you like vanilla and you like chocolate it's still ice cream you know what I mean it's like

[00:36:21] we're we're talking about the same when we're talking about the top maybe even the top 10 PAs

[00:36:28] we're talking about great boxes that you can get good results with they all have their positives

[00:36:35] yes and they all have their negatives correct and it comes down to what you're mixing and how

[00:36:40] you're mixing how the room is tuned I think tuning is very important to make sure it's tuned correct

[00:36:46] but if you're playing in that echelon of you know the top four or five manufacturers that are out

[00:36:51] there and I think definitely Meyer L acoustics DNB or in that in those in the top five for sure

[00:36:58] then you're playing in the right place I think if you know a buddy tells you hey go get this

[00:37:04] PA that no one's ever heard of then start thinking a little bit two or three times about that

[00:37:10] but stay at the top echelon um spend your money there because your your your PAs going to be

[00:37:17] with you for 20 years every church I go in and consult with I've honestly literally never walked

[00:37:23] into a church that has said hey we're gonna keep this PA for three or four years and then we're

[00:37:29] gonna change it out I know most cases it's there for 10 years 15 years in some cases 20 years

[00:37:35] I've seen I've seen Meyer and some churches that have just lasted forever Meyer and Disney lasted

[00:37:41] forever yeah um so your PA is going to be an important decision uh spend your money on the upper

[00:37:47] echelon is what I like to tell people so we talked a little bit about consoles we talked a little

[00:37:51] bit about PA what is your beer choice when you're on the road uh let's see I don't know I mean uh

[00:38:04] I'm a porter kind of a guy porter yeah you talked about Iron Maiden I think you're going on

[00:38:09] tour them for what three months or something like that yeah three and a half months I leave um

[00:38:14] Sunday and I'm back August 15th international right internationally yeah we go and we rehearse

[00:38:20] uh in Croatia they they love to rehearse in Croatia it's kind of a vacation as well um and uh

[00:38:28] we're there for about three and a half weeks and then we go do production rehearsals um I forget where

[00:38:35] those are this time uh it's wherever the first show is somewhere somewhere strange checkles

[00:38:41] of akia I think or something checkle somewhere over there yeah so what I'm getting at is you've

[00:38:46] been around the world quite a few times yeah what's your favorite food what's your favorite city

[00:38:52] oh man that's tough um you can include the US too I mean yeah um I have a real love for Paris

[00:39:03] um I got engaged in Paris my wife um speaks a little French so um there's a there's a

[00:39:10] connection to that city that I feel is real um geez where else um I love Prague a lot

[00:39:22] yeah great city um what's your favorite food in those cities oh man uh I tend to love the whatever

[00:39:33] is the ethnic food of that place so you know you go to Japan uh and you know of course you have

[00:39:40] to go to amazing sushi joints and you know and um you know experience um they have this uh

[00:39:48] uh in in Osaka they have this uh thing called it's basically like an egg omelet um that is

[00:39:55] something the most amazing omelet that you've ever had in your entire life um and it's not

[00:40:02] meant for like breakfast it's meant like as a as a dinner item and they cook it in front of you

[00:40:08] on a you know on a grill um anyway um so I like the food of wherever I'm at you know um but it tends

[00:40:19] to be for me like I will seek out um Thai food and Indian food um definitely in the UK like that's

[00:40:27] all I'm doing is looking for places for a curry man I just uh I love brisket man I'm in Dallas

[00:40:34] Texas for a reason like it's just uh I've gone you know Israel around the world a little bit not as

[00:40:41] much as you obviously but uh get back here and give me some good old Texas brisket yeah and me too

[00:40:47] you know I didn't grow up in Texas I grew up in California but my wife is from Texas uh and yeah

[00:40:52] I mean I've been here for 25 years now um so yeah I'm I love the Texas brisket as well

[00:41:00] one of the questions I was going to ask you is is music lessons a big deal and the reason

[00:41:04] why I'm asking this question is is all me the guy or gal who's mixing and I'll ask him like hey do

[00:41:11] you have any music lessons do you play an instrument yeah and they'll say no I've never played an

[00:41:16] instrument in my entire life talk a little bit about that and maybe some things that engineers can

[00:41:21] do to help themselves get better as a as a mixer that doesn't necessarily have to do with being on the

[00:41:27] console yeah so this is an interesting question because you know there are major mixers out there

[00:41:37] right now who mix top artists that are not musicians and don't know anything about music um

[00:41:44] but I feel like you have an advantage if you have some of that knowledge especially if you dabble

[00:41:53] a little bit in the pop world um and then you know some of the Christian um you know artists um

[00:42:01] uh being able to communicate with a musical director about specifically

[00:42:07] uh musical talk like you know they're in the bridge section or in the chorus third chorus

[00:42:16] etc etc and having knowledge of some of those things you know like you know that part where you

[00:42:22] modulate up you know that that part needs to uh you know the guitar player needs to play ladder whatever

[00:42:29] and you don't want to say what does modulate me no yeah yeah and and so those are communication skills

[00:42:35] that like you need to have to um enhance the the experience of of working with other people in my

[00:42:44] opinion um I just you know I grew up as being a musician um I went to Berkeley College of Music as

[00:42:50] a performer um I really kind of had no intention of being an engineer uh I was a bass player and I

[00:42:58] got there and looked around and I said there's 200 that bass players here that are way better than

[00:43:05] I am uh there's no way I'm gonna end up being a bass player and make and make a living at it um so

[00:43:11] you know it kind of I kind of took a right turn there but um I think it's important that you do

[00:43:19] have some of that knowledge um uh that's not to say that you know you have to master an instrument or

[00:43:27] whatever but but having some sort of harmony knowledge ear training kind of knowledge I think is

[00:43:34] important um as far as uh being a better engineer um I think ear training is important like I encourage

[00:43:47] um people to uh engineers to you know just get get like a graphicky cue and start listening to music

[00:43:58] through it start boosting frequencies and cutting frequencies and boosting frequencies and cutting

[00:44:03] frequencies and then trying to do it without looking at what it is that you're boosting and cutting

[00:44:10] and trying to identify what those frequencies are and learn at least close to the sections of

[00:44:18] frequencies so that you have an idea uh of where to shoot for um I think that's important I think

[00:44:25] ear training is is is important um another thing that I always tell people which is a little bit weird

[00:44:31] but it's it's the truth um an engineer should be studying psychology and people how to get along with

[00:44:41] people how to get what you need from someone um without uh without them kind of knowing that you're

[00:44:52] you're getting something out of them those are all psychological things I think a real secret to my

[00:44:58] success is been to be able to walk into a room full of crazy people and identify what's going on

[00:45:05] with every single one of them quickly like okay I know that that manager has a problem with xyz

[00:45:13] I know that the artist is having a problem with whatever and those are all like skills psychological

[00:45:20] skills those have nothing to do with being able to mix and get a uh a game structure happening

[00:45:27] but there are some really really great books psychology 101 on how um how to get along with people

[00:45:33] and how to get what you need out of people without them knowing that you're getting what you need

[00:45:39] yeah don't be a jerk yeah don't be a jerk don't be a jerk don't be rude I've seen some very

[00:45:45] very talented guys and gals go into mix and they're gone the first day because they didn't

[00:45:51] identify with the band um they didn't it was their way or the highway uh and they were just rude

[00:45:58] and uh at the end of the day the band and the artist they are the boss and if you can't get along

[00:46:05] with them they're not gonna have it they're just gonna go to the next person there is an engineer

[00:46:10] and I'm not gonna name his name but he is I would say top five engineers in the world like really

[00:46:17] amazing and has mixed giant artists through the 80s 90s and 2000s that guy cannot find work right

[00:46:27] now and the reason is is his reputation of being really hard to work with um and having a bad attitude

[00:46:34] and so yeah man you can't that's the most important thing is is I when I work with an artist my whole

[00:46:43] purpose in life is to let them feel that I am there for them and I am there uh to to help them

[00:46:53] get their their message across like I'm there for them I'm not there for myself I'm here to get your

[00:47:02] music across like you want it to be and so whatever whatever that is um the feeling that they have

[00:47:13] and the trust that they can build with me knowing saying hey that guy's got my back and I know

[00:47:19] it's gonna sound great out there because he's looking out for me um there's nothing you know

[00:47:26] that has nothing to do with engineering skills that has everything to do with people skills and

[00:47:33] having conversations with people and getting along with them I think what you just said is very key

[00:47:38] for a lot of churches as well you're not there to mix for yourself nobody's there to mix for

[00:47:43] the sauce you're there to mix for whoever is important and sometimes that's the crowd and

[00:47:52] sometimes that's a manager sometimes that's a girlfriend sometimes you know it's you're there

[00:48:01] for it's never about you if you make it about you you're not gonna last very long now you mix

[00:48:06] should be about the vision of the house and like you said that changes in the second world that

[00:48:12] can that could be a girlfriend yeah and that could be the audience that could be the the guy

[00:48:15] standing on the stage the artist uh in the church world typically it's it's the senior pastor

[00:48:21] it's the people that are attending and the the elders and the deacons etc but it's very rarely if

[00:48:28] ever about you that's right if you want it to be about how you want it to sound you've got to

[00:48:35] identify with the band with and capture their vision of what they want and how they want it

[00:48:42] uh you can't be a jerk you gotta have people skills and then you get all kinds of leeway and freedom

[00:48:48] when the artist stands on the platform and says hey pooch what do you think of this

[00:48:53] you've nailed it yeah at that point they're trusting you with with the millions and millions

[00:48:59] of dollars that they make that's right they're trusting you with their vision as soon as they

[00:49:05] start treating you like a producer and not just a live sound mixer then you're in you you've

[00:49:12] you've got it you know when they start saying well in this section you know I just feel like I'm not

[00:49:17] you know you're you're in yeah I mean one of the questions I wanted to ask you is do you consider

[00:49:23] yourself a part of the band I do I consider myself an extension of the band um but I have unlike

[00:49:37] unlike a band I have everyone's best interests in mind as a mixer you know the the old joke of

[00:49:48] guitar player walking into a recording session and saying oh you know turn me up

[00:49:53] bass player walks in oh turn me up drummer walks in oh turn me up you know that that's truth right

[00:49:58] like that happens um and each of them are kind of looking out for themselves and think that each

[00:50:04] of them should be louder whatever of course the electric guitar player the electric guitar player

[00:50:09] should be the loudest right louder than vocal wait that's right well I heard the

[00:50:16] I mean I'm the traffic cop I like take all of that information and do what's right for the better

[00:50:24] good um so so the answer is yes I am an extension of the band but I'm also a um

[00:50:33] I don't know what the word is um a someone that that cares about the the overall product we just

[00:50:43] set it right people skills if the band feels like you're a part of the band you've nailed it if

[00:50:48] the artist feels like you're a part of their vision you've nailed it but there's other factors

[00:50:54] out there right you you how you mix how you set it up when you come in for sound check things

[00:50:59] of that nature all play into uh what you're doing so you know do you consider yourself a part of

[00:51:04] the band I think the answer is yes and no from what what I'm here and you say I think you have to

[00:51:09] kind of balance a few other things uh in there and make sure that everybody understands uh where

[00:51:15] you're heading where you're going which is a little bit different as the tech behind the console

[00:51:20] yeah it's a it's a weird uh at least in the secular part of this it's a weird line to walk

[00:51:28] like I don't there are engineers that make a living out of becoming best friends with the artists right

[00:51:38] um that's not my philosophy I try really hard to have a working relationship and respect and um

[00:51:49] you know hang out a little bit but it's like I yeah you know I don't want to go to the guy's house for

[00:51:55] dinner you know I mean that's that's not that's not how our relationship should be and the reason

[00:52:02] I think it should be that way is that you get better results when you keep it as a business

[00:52:09] relationship when there's not this personal wrapped up relationship um and I think you you can get

[00:52:18] hurt easily if you decide I'm gonna become best friends with a musical director um you know

[00:52:25] it's it's a real it's a weird tightrope and I try to establish those things early on in in a

[00:52:34] relationship with um you know with an artist that I'm working with do you like mix in front of house

[00:52:40] or do you like mix in any years uh I should say monitors I guess I guess some people still use monitors

[00:52:46] but uh what what's your favorite oh man um stay I stay away as far away from the stage as possible

[00:52:53] um and the reason the reason I'll tell you what the reason is um I feel like as a monitor engineer

[00:53:04] you aren't getting to show your creativity as a mixer you're kind of like a short order cook

[00:53:12] um you know someone's ordering I want an omelet and I want mushrooms and cheese in it

[00:53:18] and and so as a mixer you're creating mixes for someone that are not necessarily the creatively

[00:53:26] amazing sounding things they are just what the position is asking for to be in the mix in order

[00:53:33] to play um and to me that's not as creative as being a front of house guy there's guys that get off

[00:53:42] on that and love it and are able when they deliver to a an artist exactly what they want

[00:53:50] and the artist is happy about it I get that there's there's something to that but I I just don't

[00:53:58] I don't identify with it at all I mixed a lot of monitors back before there were I am I mixed

[00:54:03] loud wedges I mixed for bands like Pantera um as as a monitor engineer um and I just never enjoyed it

[00:54:12] as I do it front of house well Pooch you're nicer than me I hate mixing monitors absolutely I've

[00:54:18] done it four or five times and I if I can avoid it me too it's too close too close to the artist

[00:54:26] well I mean and there was other things that you know when I mixed monitors you know typically the

[00:54:30] vocals would be in ears and then the band would be wedges and things like that and so I just didn't

[00:54:35] like the environment you know I was up on the platform just things rattling all around me and

[00:54:41] you know I had to you know pop in ears to listen to the ears in a wedge this in wedge and then

[00:54:45] you know like you said it's all about them and there's nothing wrong with that I mean they need what

[00:54:50] they need um but when I was at front of house I felt like I had the freedom to mix and instrument

[00:54:55] and that's uh that's where I felt the best for me at least yeah absolutely I think even in in the

[00:55:03] most hardcore front of house situations where it's being dictated to you exactly how it should sound

[00:55:12] you're still have a creative part of that and achieving in being a front of house mixer you're

[00:55:18] still doing some creative things in order to get to whatever the the hardest you know however

[00:55:25] the manager the artist I wanted to sound like this even in that situation you're doing a lot of

[00:55:33] creative things um I just you know these these guys that have 32 stereo mixes I like what I don't

[00:55:41] know anything how do you keep track of all that I don't know really don't know all right Pooch you've

[00:55:47] mixed for a lot of artists who's your favorite artist to mix for oh boy um I really liked Whitney Houston

[00:55:58] she was really sweet to me uh and pro and definitely not probably uh definitely the best singer

[00:56:05] that I've ever worked for like the hairs on your arm would stand up when she would sing it was

[00:56:10] unbelievable um but then um you know I worked for Lincoln Park for 13 years and developed a real

[00:56:19] rapport with those guys where I really felt like I was part of the band in regards to being a producer

[00:56:29] of their sound their live sound um and we worked very closely in rehearsals and trying to get

[00:56:37] exactly what they wanted um it was a super amazing creative process um so that's been good um

[00:56:46] and honestly I earned maiden the band that I worked for now you know I grew up as a serious iron maiden

[00:56:52] fan um and so that's fun to mix a band that you know I mean you know when I was 15 I was cracking

[00:57:01] their records in my house and so there are moments now where I'm mixing them and I feel like I'm

[00:57:08] being transported back to being 15 years old you know in my room cracking one of their records um

[00:57:15] and uh so those guys are amazing musicians and super respectful uh I've been working for them

[00:57:22] for five years now and and and I love it I'll stay there as long as they'll have me. Pooch man you

[00:57:27] have a lot of awesome insights I know you mix behind the console but you also put a lot of insights

[00:57:32] out there for people to to see and hear and learn if people want to follow you your Instagram account

[00:57:39] I think it's FOH underscore engineer underscore pooch is that correct? That's correct yep awesome so

[00:57:47] I encourage everyone to go out there and subscribe to that you get some bonus content it's

[00:57:53] it's it's he puts a lot of stuff out there when he's out on tour he'll do some little videos and

[00:57:58] kind of show you what he's doing it's very cool so go subscribe to his Instagram account FOH

[00:58:05] underscore engineer underscore pooch and also you know I did a thing during the pandemic with Chris

[00:58:15] rabled who's an amazing engineer um it's on youtube it's a youtube channel called pooch and rabled

[00:58:23] and uh I'm really super proud of all that stuff I think there's 42

[00:58:28] 42 hours of him and I just talking about audio um and uh I found a lot of people that ended up

[00:58:38] watching that have come back to me and said wow that was very very helpful so um you know even though

[00:58:44] it was recorded in 2021 or whatever there's stuff on there that's that's you know relevant to today

[00:58:50] for sure and that's on youtube right that's on youtube yeah what's the youtube handle for people to

[00:58:55] get there if you search pooch and rabled our a b o l d uh you will you'll find it that's awesome

[00:59:03] pooch it was amazing having you on today thank you for having me man I always love talking about audio

[00:59:09] I have always felt like it's not mine to keep um it's mine to give away uh and so if this helps anybody

[00:59:19] I'm doing what I should be doing everybody go check out pooch's instagram account and the youtube account

[00:59:26] here's a lot of insights for you they're great guy uh willing to work with you will reach out to him

[00:59:33] talk to him learn from um awesome guy so pooch thank you again for coming on thanks for having me

[00:59:39] I really appreciate it well that wraps things up for today's episode I can't wait to talk to you

[00:59:44] on the next Tech Arts podcast until then i'm David loisters signing off by wishing you a great day

[00:59:50] and praying god blesses every moment of your week see you soon you have been listening to the Tech Arts

[00:59:56] podcast presented by digital great commission ministries dgcm is a 501c3 nonprofit that was

[01:00:03] started to help churches with all things technical whether you need help building a team

[01:00:08] finding the right gear or just a better understanding of the church tech world dgcm is here for you

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