Leadership Frameworks with Nicole Lucas

[00:00:06] This is the Tech Arts Podcast, where we talk about tech, leadership, and all things that concern church audio, video, and lighting.

[00:00:16] Welcome to the Tech Arts Podcast and the Earthworks Audio Studios. My name is DL. So glad to have you joining us today.

[00:00:23] We have an amazing show lined up for you today. Three great segments. But before we get into that, I want to tell you a little bit about our giveaway.

[00:00:32] Today we're interviewing Nicole Lucas about her book, Leadership Frameworks.

[00:00:38] Not only are we giving away her book, but Digital Great Commission Ministries and The Tech Arts Podcast are giving away up to $700 worth of gear.

[00:00:49] Here's how it works. If you're a church and you need a piece of gear or multiple pieces of gear that is not in your budget,

[00:00:56] DGCM and The Tech Arts Podcast is going to buy that gear for you up to $700 in value and ship it to you absolutely free.

[00:01:08] Need a couple mics? No problem. Need a video converter? No problem.

[00:01:12] We're ready to buy whatever you need up to $700 and send it to you for absolutely free.

[00:01:20] How do you get signed up for this giveaway? Well, it's simple.

[00:01:24] You go to techartspodcast.com and click on the free giveaway link.

[00:01:29] To win up to $700 of free equipment that you get to choose, go to techartspodcast.com and click on the free giveaway link.

[00:01:41] Here's a little sneak peek of what we have for you today.

[00:01:44] It's a little bit of a longer show, but it's packed with great tips and content.

[00:01:49] Our main segment features Nicole Lucas.

[00:01:51] She is the author of the book Leadership Frameworks, and we have a great chat with her about the book

[00:01:57] and how leadership skills, social skills, and emotional intelligence is a big part of leading a tech team.

[00:02:04] For the tech tips segment, well, I don't want to give it away, but it has to do with used gear and a company that will help you in this area.

[00:02:14] But first, let's hear from Paragon 360 and the Paragon Angle.

[00:02:19] I can't stress enough, it's not about widgets and amps and watts and gigabytes and aspect ratios.

[00:02:25] It's about connection.

[00:02:32] Hello, I'm Donnie Bronner, owner and CEO of Paragon 360, and this is the Paragon Angle.

[00:02:38] Today, we're going to look at the big picture and answer the question,

[00:02:41] what do churches need to do to create better environments for Gen Z and millennials?

[00:02:47] Why does it matter?

[00:02:48] Because that's the new core of the church.

[00:02:50] So here at Paragon, we've been involved in over a thousand church renovation and new construction projects

[00:02:55] from coast to coast over the last 24 years.

[00:02:57] And we're seeing a major transition in the church space right now.

[00:03:01] And that's changing how we design spaces.

[00:03:03] I think there's three key factors in creating engaging environments for this generation.

[00:03:08] First, Gen Z and millennials are looking for community, connection, and fellowship.

[00:03:13] They're very interested in engaging gathering spaces, children's spaces, and top shelf security.

[00:03:18] That means the big priority won't just be the sanctuary.

[00:03:21] The last five contracts Paragon assigned included a completely new approach to children's space design,

[00:03:27] along with creation, renovation, and construction of gathering spaces, connectors, coffee shops,

[00:03:32] and places that foster community.

[00:03:34] That means it's going to be all about the experience we create going forward.

[00:03:40] Number two, online presence will become critical to church growth, as if it's not already, right?

[00:03:47] If done well, this will become a primary driver of in-person experiences as well.

[00:03:53] Now, having a robust online presence is not a threat to our in-person experiences.

[00:03:58] Done right, it fuels them.

[00:04:00] In a 2023 survey of 5,000 millennials, one-third of them reported that they are attending online and in-person.

[00:04:08] This is going to be the primary driver in the future.

[00:04:11] And we need to be paying big attention to this as we think about how we design our spaces and its technology.

[00:04:17] We need to be creating a great experience online and in-person.

[00:04:21] Number three, the main attraction is changing.

[00:04:25] Moving forward, the main attraction may not be the sermon.

[00:04:29] The sermon itself may become the anchor, but not the draw.

[00:04:32] Again, they're gathering for different reasons, right?

[00:04:35] They're gathering for the experience.

[00:04:36] I can't stress enough, it's not about widgets and amps and watts and gigabytes and aspect ratios.

[00:04:42] It's about connection and an engaging experience.

[00:04:46] Technology is a big part of that, but it cannot be the focus.

[00:04:50] So as we look at the design of spaces, we need to be thinking not only about how we achieve the best audio or the coolest lighting or the best image for broadcast,

[00:04:58] but we need to be thinking about how all of that works together, along with space design and acoustics and seating and interior design,

[00:05:06] to create amazing experiences online and in person.

[00:05:10] Now, that's what we do here at Paragon 360.

[00:05:12] We have the absolute most cost-effective renovation model on the planet, custom built for churches and battle tested for over 20 years.

[00:05:20] If we want to get these projects right, this has to inform our decisions.

[00:05:25] I hope this was helpful in considering how to engage with these new generations, and we'll see you on the next Paragon Angle.

[00:05:30] I want to take a moment and give a shout-out to Paragon 360, Earthworks Audio, ProLights, and Digico for making this podcast possible.

[00:05:42] Without these companies, the Tech Arts Podcast would not be able to bring you such amazing insights and content.

[00:05:49] A very special thanks to Paragon 360 for providing us with the Paragon Angle.

[00:05:55] Now, let's move on to our next segment.

[00:05:57] Today's church tech tip is Gearsupply.com.

[00:06:00] To talk to us about this tip, please welcome to the Tech Arts Podcast, the CEO and Chief Gear Guru of Gear Supply, Mendel Rosenberg.

[00:06:10] Hey, Mendel.

[00:06:11] Hey, how are you? Excited to be on the podcast.

[00:06:13] So tell me a little bit about that title, Chief Gear Guru.

[00:06:17] I guess that means you run the shop, huh?

[00:06:19] It does.

[00:06:22] It's a self-appointed title, but it leans into what we're doing and what I really want to be running.

[00:06:29] I don't want to be known as a chief accountant or chief marketing.

[00:06:32] It's definitely gear-focused.

[00:06:34] All of our sales reps are called Gear Gurus.

[00:06:38] The idea is if you were in a Tesla dealership, they're not selling you on price.

[00:06:45] They're not pushing the price.

[00:06:47] They're selling you on the value of what they're offering.

[00:06:49] And they don't have differences in commissions based on what the price is.

[00:06:55] It's all just on the actual value.

[00:06:57] We run a similar model where our gear gurus should really be selling the product that we're selling,

[00:07:03] being able to tell you what this gear is worth, how it's going to be worth in the next two, three months,

[00:07:08] how it depreciates, etc.

[00:07:09] The best times to buy, the best ways to buy.

[00:07:11] I mean, we're definitely not the experts in installation.

[00:07:15] We let the installers do that kind of stuff.

[00:07:17] We sell it to the installers.

[00:07:18] We're the experts in buying and selling gear.

[00:07:21] Yeah.

[00:07:21] Well, tell us a little bit about, for our audience who doesn't know, what does Gear Supply do?

[00:07:28] An interesting story, actually.

[00:07:29] For those of you who don't know, I'm an Orthodox Jew.

[00:07:32] You couldn't tell.

[00:07:34] And I am Sabbath observant, which means I can't use my phone, drive a car,

[00:07:40] definitely can't go to work on the Sabbath, which is Friday night sundown through Saturday night sundown.

[00:07:45] So I moved to Cincinnati.

[00:07:47] My wife was studying nursing.

[00:07:49] I was studying concert production.

[00:07:51] And I figured she probably has a better shot at paying the bills.

[00:07:54] So I moved down from Tel Aviv, actually.

[00:07:57] Moved to Cincinnati.

[00:07:58] Tried to get a job in concert production.

[00:08:00] Interviewed by a company, one of the biggest shops around in this Ohio region.

[00:08:07] And got the dial-by-name directory.

[00:08:10] Hit Steve, because it's an American company.

[00:08:12] There's probably a Steve working there.

[00:08:13] Sure enough, there was a Steve working there.

[00:08:15] And he's in charge of all the tech teams.

[00:08:18] And he said, yeah, why don't you come in tomorrow for an interview?

[00:08:20] He gave me an interview.

[00:08:21] He gave me a job on the spot.

[00:08:23] And then I said, Steve, I can't work on the Sabbath.

[00:08:25] So Friday night through Saturday night, I'm off the clock.

[00:08:29] And Steve said, that's kind of an issue.

[00:08:32] That's half the work week.

[00:08:34] And I said, I get that.

[00:08:36] And I understand this isn't going to work out.

[00:08:39] But is there anything else I can do?

[00:08:41] And Steve was nice enough to say, yeah, there is.

[00:08:43] We got tons of used gear.

[00:08:44] He took my resume back and looked through my resume and saw that I sold things online.

[00:08:48] And he said, yeah, we have tons of used gear.

[00:08:49] Maybe you can sell our used gear online.

[00:08:51] And I said, yeah, that sounds cool.

[00:08:53] I'll do that.

[00:08:53] And my hope was that I'd get back into concert production.

[00:08:56] And I started selling off some of their gear.

[00:08:58] They walked me out to their warehouse.

[00:09:00] I think their warehouse is like 100,000 square feet.

[00:09:03] And you walk out and you're already about a fifth of the way through the warehouse.

[00:09:07] And I see this huge warehouse that's like you walk out and that's what you see in front of you.

[00:09:11] And then he says, now turn around.

[00:09:13] And I turn around and there's this side of the warehouse that's dark.

[00:09:16] And it's like 20% of the warehouse.

[00:09:18] And there's shelves full of stuff.

[00:09:20] And I said, okay, yeah.

[00:09:21] He's like, all of that is gear we're not using anymore.

[00:09:24] And I'm like, whoa, okay.

[00:09:27] And he says, grab a folding table and a chair and get to work.

[00:09:32] And I set up a little photo booth.

[00:09:34] And a buddy of mine who's very industrious and has a lot of business acumen and also comes from a wealthy family so has money to play with.

[00:09:41] I definitely don't.

[00:09:45] He reaches out to me and says, hey, what are you up to?

[00:09:47] And I said, I'm doing this and this, but I want to get into concept production.

[00:09:50] And he said, Menlo, why don't you find out if this is an issue that plagues other companies as well?

[00:09:54] Because maybe this used gear thing is actually somewhere where you could really provide value.

[00:09:59] And I said, yeah, that's a good idea, but I don't really know how I would help.

[00:10:03] And he said, call up a bunch of companies and start buying their gear, their used gear, if that is indeed an issue.

[00:10:10] And we'll split it.

[00:10:11] We'll go 50-50.

[00:10:12] You run the business, I'll put up the money and we'll go 50-50.

[00:10:16] And sure enough, that's how Gear Supply was born.

[00:10:19] I started calling production companies, realized this is not just a needle and a haystack issue.

[00:10:26] It's a haystack and a needle issue.

[00:10:28] There's every single production company basically has issues with used gear.

[00:10:33] And I'll get into the actual what the company does in a second.

[00:10:37] But effectively, that's how Gear Supply was born, just because I couldn't work on Sabbath and told the guy, do you have anything else for me?

[00:10:43] And sure enough, got this role and started calling production companies.

[00:10:46] And sure enough, it was a very, very much needed issue that we were able to solve.

[00:10:52] So that was the start of Gear Supply.

[00:10:54] Well, I think that's cool because I think it says to our audience, you know, you can hold to your values and still do what you love.

[00:11:04] I think a lot of people feel like in today's world, in today's secular world, that sometimes they have to give up on their values and what they hold dearest in order to do what they love.

[00:11:14] So, yeah, get into what Gear Supply does.

[00:11:17] I mean, I think based on that story, we kind of figured out it's used gear and you're kind of supplying used gear.

[00:11:23] But kind of tell us what you guys do.

[00:11:25] Yeah, yeah, sure.

[00:11:26] And just jumping back on that value side, I have found, and I talk to people in the community about this all day long,

[00:11:35] that a value-driven company is a company that lasts.

[00:11:40] And we, when we hire people, thank God, we have a decent-sized team now.

[00:11:47] We look for people that have values, not necessarily the values that I agree with.

[00:11:51] Obviously, if somebody's unethical, it's a different story.

[00:11:53] But I don't always agree with people's, you know, political opinions or values.

[00:11:56] But I need to know that somebody has a backbone because we're a company that has a backbone.

[00:12:02] And so value-driven companies are companies that last.

[00:12:06] And you read any of these legacy, older, you know, GE, Microsofts, obviously, they've become a little bit corporate these days.

[00:12:13] But you read how they started and how they really got their first 10 years into their business.

[00:12:18] And it's all about the relationships and the value and the backbone and really being a company that people can rely on.

[00:12:23] It sounds like whether you're a global production company or a local sound guy,

[00:12:29] it sounds like what you guys are doing is making buying and selling AV gear simple, fast, affordable, and easy for those guys.

[00:12:39] Does that kind of sum up what gearsupply.com does?

[00:12:42] That's spot on.

[00:12:43] There's two sides of the business.

[00:12:46] We started just buying gear and we buy gear in bulk.

[00:12:50] And primarily, we're buying it through trade-ins.

[00:12:53] So I know we still do that.

[00:12:54] This is a very active part of our business.

[00:12:57] We work with integrators and we work with manufacturers and we work with dealers.

[00:13:01] And we say, hey, next time you go to sell a client a system, find out what their old gear is.

[00:13:06] And usually the question starts a little different.

[00:13:09] Hey, do you guys buy back your clients' old gear?

[00:13:11] And they usually say, no, we're sitting in an office.

[00:13:13] Where are we going to put that?

[00:13:14] Or no, we don't have $300,000 to pay this church for all their old milos.

[00:13:19] And then I continue with the pitch.

[00:13:22] Okay, we'd love to help you.

[00:13:24] We can set up a trading program with you.

[00:13:26] And we work with the manufacturer or the dealer or the integrator.

[00:13:29] And they send us a lead.

[00:13:30] And they say, hey, we're doing a deal in this church.

[00:13:33] And here's the gear that they have.

[00:13:35] And we send them back.

[00:13:36] We say, this gear in Times Square Church is worth $200,000.

[00:13:40] Great.

[00:13:41] $200,000.

[00:13:41] They go back to Times Square Church and say, Times Square Church, we're doing a $2 million

[00:13:45] installation.

[00:13:46] You only need to come up with $1.8 million because you have a $200,000 credit for your old gear.

[00:13:52] On paper, and if anybody has questions about this, they can email me, purchasing at gearsupply.com.

[00:13:58] But on paper, on the back end, we do our deal with the manufacturer.

[00:14:04] The manufacturer gives the client credit.

[00:14:05] And then, this is the most important part, when they go to ship that new gear to the client,

[00:14:10] we show up the same day to take out the old gear.

[00:14:12] So it's like trading in a car.

[00:14:13] You drive on the lot with your old Nissan.

[00:14:15] You drive off with your new F-150.

[00:14:17] It's the exact same deal over here.

[00:14:19] The client sees the new gear come in, sees the old gear go out.

[00:14:22] Same day, we've done deals where we've been in and out within a couple-hour time frame

[00:14:26] because they had a show the day before and a day after.

[00:14:29] And that install was happening exactly on that day.

[00:14:31] And we needed to be there exactly on that day to pull out the gear.

[00:14:34] So we're pretty efficient.

[00:14:35] We can buy gear anywhere in the U.S. in under four business days.

[00:14:39] And we pay 70% to 80% of market value.

[00:14:42] So that's the first side of the business.

[00:14:44] During COVID, things got pretty slow.

[00:14:46] For those of you in the audience who don't know, COVID kind of destroyed our industry for

[00:14:50] a couple months.

[00:14:51] Although I'm sure everybody knows that very well.

[00:14:55] Because of that, we didn't want to lay everybody off.

[00:14:58] We had a team of great people.

[00:15:00] And we ended up pivoting to making a marketplace because we were really good at buying gear.

[00:15:06] We had the supply side of the gear down pat.

[00:15:09] That's what we call it, gear supply.

[00:15:10] We had a ton of manufacturer relationships.

[00:15:12] We do trade-ins for L-Acoustics, quite a bit for DMV, for JBL, for Meijer, for a bunch

[00:15:18] of the console manufacturers.

[00:15:19] We're doing trade-ins for everybody.

[00:15:21] For many of those, we're exclusive.

[00:15:23] And we're very good at getting the gear, but struggled selling the gear because we have

[00:15:27] to sell it through brokers and sell it through Facebook Marketplace and sell it through eBay,

[00:15:31] which is not designed for selling high-value items.

[00:15:35] And we just struggled and struggled and struggled.

[00:15:38] And we're so focused on growing those supply relationships that we never really cared that

[00:15:43] we're leaving tons of money on the table by using all those services that just mentioned,

[00:15:47] plus huge headache to work with those services.

[00:15:51] And I knew eventually we'd create a marketplace, but COVID kind of sped that up.

[00:15:55] We put this marketplace out.

[00:15:57] We did about a million dollars in transactions.

[00:15:58] And it was a total duct tape together canoe.

[00:16:02] We were just plugging holes as we go.

[00:16:05] And the platform was not ready.

[00:16:06] We just did this proof of concept.

[00:16:08] We put $50,000 in it, sent it off on the water.

[00:16:11] And sure enough, it floated and it actually traveled quite far.

[00:16:14] And we did a million dollars in transactions in the first three months.

[00:16:17] And we said, holy crap, there is a market here.

[00:16:21] And people are ready to transact digitally online.

[00:16:25] Our biggest differentiator is that we only charge 6%.

[00:16:29] So if you use a broker, you can be paying 10% to 20%.

[00:16:32] Use eBay, you can be paying 13%.

[00:16:34] And there's issues with all those.

[00:16:36] Use Facebook Marketplace, you're getting scammed.

[00:16:39] So there's issues with all those three tools.

[00:16:43] And we said, we're going to just focus on core issues that people need us to help them with.

[00:16:48] The transaction, the shipping, the marketing.

[00:16:50] And let people who know this gear well negotiate with their customers.

[00:16:54] They don't need us to do that for them.

[00:16:56] They know how to sell this gear.

[00:16:57] They know what it's worth.

[00:16:58] So we're not transacting for you.

[00:16:59] We're helping facilitate and close that.

[00:17:01] We're helping with the tax compliance.

[00:17:03] We're helping with logistics.

[00:17:04] We're helping with inventory management.

[00:17:05] But as far as actually selling the gear, our industry knows what they're doing.

[00:17:09] They know this gear.

[00:17:10] They pitch it to people on riders all day long.

[00:17:12] They can pitch it to another industry customer.

[00:17:15] And it's not fair to charge them 20% to just do two or three of those things,

[00:17:20] which we can technologically optimize and not need to actually have a physical person

[00:17:23] physically calling every single freight company.

[00:17:26] We can create freight tools that do that for them.

[00:17:28] And on the platform, it has all that.

[00:17:29] It sounds like between the marketplace and the trade-in programs and the transparency

[00:17:36] and scale that you guys do, that sets you apart from some of the other companies that

[00:17:40] are doing this.

[00:17:41] And plus the personal touch with the gear guru that's kind of helping you through the whole

[00:17:46] process, depending on which side of the business that you're on.

[00:17:50] It sounds like that sets you apart from a lot of the other companies.

[00:17:53] Would you agree?

[00:17:53] Yeah.

[00:17:54] Yeah.

[00:17:54] I mean, like we're not reinventing the wheel on any of this.

[00:17:58] And I think you said it perfectly.

[00:17:59] The difference between us and everybody else is the scale that we're doing it.

[00:18:03] We have 40,000 historical pricing points that we've tracked across our own sales,

[00:18:08] across sales of auctions and all the other platforms and websites.

[00:18:13] And that makes us be able to get really comfortable with the gear where somebody thinks

[00:18:19] maybe this gear is worth 100,000, maybe it's worth 90, maybe it's worth 80.

[00:18:22] So I'm going to offer 50.

[00:18:23] We know it's worth 100,000.

[00:18:25] So we're going to offer 70 to $80,000 because we know that we can sell it.

[00:18:29] We know exactly how we're supposed to sell it.

[00:18:30] We have exactly the market to market that to.

[00:18:32] So on the direct side, we're always going to be paying more.

[00:18:36] The only person that's going to pay more than us is an end user.

[00:18:38] So Mendel, I'm sitting at home listening to this.

[00:18:41] How do I get in touch with you?

[00:18:43] How do I get the whole process started?

[00:18:45] Sure, sure.

[00:18:47] There are a few ways that you can sell gear.

[00:18:50] You can sell this directly.

[00:18:52] If you're large enough, you can become a preferred vendor, which means we directly manage your

[00:18:56] inventory for you.

[00:18:57] Or you can list it as a community listing, which is 100% free.

[00:19:01] But you don't have access to some of the imagery management or payment tools that we give our

[00:19:06] bigger vendors like a PRG or a Solotec or some of the bigger production companies.

[00:19:11] So those are the three ways you can do that.

[00:19:13] If you go right into gear supply, you'll see right in the corner, it says sell.

[00:19:15] And if you feel like you should be a preferred vendor, reach out.

[00:19:18] We'll help you do that.

[00:19:19] Or you can just sell us the gear directly.

[00:19:20] So again, those are the three ways you can sell to us, list it as a community listing,

[00:19:25] or become a preferred vendor on the platform.

[00:19:27] To get in touch with gear supply, you want to go to gearsupply.com.

[00:19:33] If you want to get a hold of Mendel directly, you have something there.

[00:19:36] It's purchasing at gearsupply.com.

[00:19:38] If you have some questions about setting things up, you can go and email them at team at gearsupply.com.

[00:19:45] But you shouldn't have any problems.

[00:19:46] You go to gearsupply.com.

[00:19:49] You can click on sell.

[00:19:50] It is truly the easiest way to buy and sell used AV gear.

[00:19:55] So go to gearsupply.com.

[00:19:59] Mendel, thanks for coming on to the Tech Arts Podcast and telling us about your company.

[00:20:04] Awesome.

[00:20:04] Thank you.

[00:20:05] Coming up in just a few minutes is our exciting interview with Nicole Lucas.

[00:20:08] We're talking about her book, Leadership Frameworks.

[00:20:12] This podcast will help you understand that social skills and emotional skills are important.

[00:20:17] Plus, we'll talk about consideration.

[00:20:20] Do you know what consideration is?

[00:20:22] Well, it's important.

[00:20:23] And you will find out what it is right after these messages from our sponsors.

[00:20:28] Hang on.

[00:20:37] Thank you for listening to the Tech Arts Podcast.

[00:20:39] Be sure to tell all your friends about us.

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[00:20:47] More great content is coming up right after this.

[00:20:53] Our main sponsor is Digital Great Commission Ministries.

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[00:21:44] That's audiovideolighting.com.

[00:21:50] Welcome back to the Tech Arts Podcast.

[00:21:52] Today we're talking to a creative leader, speaker, author, and developer of people with over 15 years of experience leading teams.

[00:22:00] She is the founder and CEO of The Creative Level, which is a leadership development company focused on training leaders in the top interpersonal skills needed to lead teams and create a healthy culture.

[00:22:13] If you have not figured it out yet, we're talking about leadership today.

[00:22:17] Oh, I almost forgot.

[00:22:18] On top of all of that, she serves on the staff as the creative arts pastor for Christ Community Church in St. Charles, Illinois.

[00:22:26] Please welcome to the Tech Arts Podcast, the author of the book Leadership Frameworks, Nicole Lucas.

[00:22:33] Hey, Nicole.

[00:22:34] Hey, thanks for having me.

[00:22:35] I'm excited to be here.

[00:22:36] Yeah, we just basically unpacked your whole work life, but tell us a little bit about yourself and your personal life.

[00:22:43] What do you do when you're not writing books and leading teams?

[00:22:46] Yeah, well, when I'm not doing all that stuff, I'm trying to stay up to par on all of my leadership, really.

[00:22:53] I'm doing a lot of reading.

[00:22:55] I love to read.

[00:22:56] I love storytelling.

[00:22:58] I love hanging out with friends over a good meal, so cooking, exploring new restaurants, hanging out with my puppy, Finn.

[00:23:07] He's a Pomeranian husky, if you can imagine that combination.

[00:23:12] So he's a handful.

[00:23:13] So you get your hands full, basically.

[00:23:14] I do.

[00:23:15] I really do.

[00:23:16] Lots of small dog, big attitude.

[00:23:18] So, yeah, that is that.

[00:23:21] And then when I'm not doing all that stuff, I've got a leadership development company called The Creative Level, like you mentioned.

[00:23:27] And I just love to help accelerate people's potential.

[00:23:32] So whether it's working with a client or hopping on a call with somebody to help them dig into a resource, it's just a lot of fun for me.

[00:23:41] It's a privilege.

[00:23:42] Well, let's jump right into it.

[00:23:43] Leadership is out there in the world a lot.

[00:23:46] The term is used a lot.

[00:23:49] It's normally applied to people like, oh, we have a political leader or you're put into a position and you're a leader.

[00:23:55] But I don't think that kind of encapsulates what leadership is.

[00:23:59] And a lot of people don't even think it's important because it's really, you know, a lot of leaders don't do it well.

[00:24:06] So explain to us why leadership's important.

[00:24:10] That's a big question.

[00:24:13] To summarize, to summarize what I could talk about for probably hours, I'll say it this way.

[00:24:20] Leadership is important because it's necessary.

[00:24:23] I know you just said a lot of people don't think about it because there's a lot of people who might not do it well.

[00:24:28] But leadership is about providing guidance and direction to people and organizations.

[00:24:32] And so without the ability to lead well, nothing in life or in work flourishes or progresses.

[00:24:40] It just stagnates.

[00:24:42] It dies.

[00:24:43] And so for me, leadership is important because it's necessary.

[00:24:46] That's a great answer.

[00:24:47] And you sent me an advanced copy of the book, Leadership Frameworks.

[00:24:52] You even signed it.

[00:24:54] I did.

[00:24:54] Well, you, I wanted to, you know, it's like, why not?

[00:24:57] Yeah, I think I told you to actually.

[00:25:00] I said, if you get super popular.

[00:25:03] I was like, if you get super popular.

[00:25:04] Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[00:25:05] You did tell me.

[00:25:06] Yeah, you did tell me that.

[00:25:07] If you get super popular, you want to be able to sell it on eBay or something like that.

[00:25:10] That's right.

[00:25:10] Yeah.

[00:25:11] Well, I don't, I don't think I said the eBay part, but.

[00:25:15] But tell us a little bit about this book.

[00:25:18] Why the title Leadership Frameworks?

[00:25:20] Yeah.

[00:25:23] This was, it was simple.

[00:25:24] It was easy.

[00:25:25] I chose the title because the book, whether I'm talking about leadership frameworks with

[00:25:32] clients or trying to, even talking about leadership, just the concept of it with friends.

[00:25:37] If I'm talking about learning how to cook something, like teaching somebody how to cook

[00:25:41] something, I am all about trying to help people take what I'm saying and learn it and apply

[00:25:46] it like as easy as possible.

[00:25:48] And so for a few years now, whenever I found myself talking about leadership with friends

[00:25:54] or colleagues or coaching, I would find myself using the word framework to describe the

[00:26:00] principles and the methods that I was sharing with people.

[00:26:04] And so when I started, I sat down, I started writing the book.

[00:26:07] I kept finding myself using that word framework.

[00:26:10] And then it became just, it just popped up everywhere.

[00:26:17] I think it even led to the book becoming more, having more of a workbook feel to it.

[00:26:22] Because in the book, throughout it, you can actually read what I'm teaching and then

[00:26:26] to help you learn it, it's like you workshop it as you go.

[00:26:31] So it applies kind of to you and what you're going through.

[00:26:35] Yeah, I noticed that when I read it.

[00:26:36] I think that's a cool concept.

[00:26:38] And so that's that whole framework concept.

[00:26:40] And so when I started brainstorming titles, that one just kept popping up.

[00:26:45] And so it made sense.

[00:26:46] It just felt right.

[00:26:48] It was easy.

[00:26:48] I actually had a harder time figuring out what I wanted to do with the subtitle than I did

[00:26:52] with the actual title of the book.

[00:26:54] So, yeah.

[00:26:56] Well, it's a cool title.

[00:26:57] I was reading through it and on page 24 and 25, you were talking about the brain.

[00:27:04] There's a little picture there.

[00:27:06] And that's when it hit me.

[00:27:08] You are much smarter than me.

[00:27:10] That's when I figured, hey, this is an author that knows what they're talking about.

[00:27:15] But in that page 24 and 25, in that area, you were talking about emotional intelligence

[00:27:21] and why it's important and how you discovered this on your journey.

[00:27:26] So talk to us a little bit about that.

[00:27:29] Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:27:31] Thank you for asking it.

[00:27:32] And I've got to say, I say thank you for asking it because I think I need to acknowledge the

[00:27:38] fact that this concept of emotional intelligence, I think it's probably been slapped on just

[00:27:45] about every leadership book you can possibly find.

[00:27:48] The term gets thrown around a lot these days, so much so that I actually worry that people

[00:27:54] will, like it'll become noise to people.

[00:27:56] Like they'll miss the importance of this concept of emotional intelligence.

[00:28:00] I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it.

[00:28:02] Emotional intelligence.

[00:28:03] And so I really encourage people to fight that attitude.

[00:28:06] So everyone listening, like don't let it become noise to you, right?

[00:28:10] So focus in, focus in.

[00:28:12] Yes, focus in.

[00:28:13] The reason why emotional intelligence, the reason why I spent an entire chapter on it,

[00:28:17] the reality is that if you really kind of dig into the book, it's throughout the entire

[00:28:22] book.

[00:28:23] That's what the book is about.

[00:28:25] It's learning these frameworks and these methods that teach you how to become emotionally

[00:28:29] intelligent in your leadership.

[00:28:30] So why it's so important is because it's vital to helping us become healthy, well-rounded

[00:28:37] human beings.

[00:28:38] So set organizational leadership to the side for a moment.

[00:28:43] And emotional intelligence is about becoming a healthy, well-rounded human being that helps

[00:28:48] us thrive independently by ourselves and interdependently with other people.

[00:28:53] And so that's why it's so important.

[00:28:55] And so I started learning about emotional intelligence when I was studying leadership in school.

[00:29:00] My degree is in leadership.

[00:29:02] It's got an emphasis in using psychology to understand how to lead individuals and teams.

[00:29:07] And so I discovered the importance of it back then.

[00:29:10] And then after school, I've spent hundreds more hours reading and learning and researching

[00:29:16] this topic.

[00:29:17] And a lot of people will always say to me, okay, but what does the brain, what does psychology

[00:29:23] have to do with leadership?

[00:29:25] And I usually answer them like a lot, like almost everything.

[00:29:29] Um, because the reason why I answer that way is because at the center of every leader's leadership

[00:29:37] are people and people are complex.

[00:29:40] Whether it's me or it's you, David, or the people that we lead, we're all complex.

[00:29:46] And so I believe that leaders, and even if you don't hold the title of a leader, you're

[00:29:52] a leader in some capacity, right?

[00:29:53] You have to understand how the brain works on a basic physiological level in order to

[00:29:59] lead yourself and other people well.

[00:30:01] And so I go into a lot of detail, more detail in the book, but the general gist of what makes

[00:30:08] emotional intelligence important comes from the fact that after 2000 years, scientists started

[00:30:15] to rethink what makes people intelligent.

[00:30:18] So before, uh, previously when they would look at a person's IQ, right?

[00:30:23] Their intelligence quotient, um, basically to put it simply, it would measure things like

[00:30:28] their reasoning, their problem solving skills, their cognitive abilities.

[00:30:32] So they'd look at like their visual mathematical language abilities, cognitive skills, how well

[00:30:38] their memory functioned, like how fast they could process information.

[00:30:42] And basically historically, if you could do all of those things well, you would be a successful

[00:30:46] intelligent person, but they started to see that there's a lot of limitations to that kind

[00:30:52] of thinking because instead of just considering someone's IQ, just only that, they started

[00:30:58] to look at people's moods and how people's emotions influence the way that they would process their

[00:31:04] thoughts, how they would make judgments about people or situations and how they would remember

[00:31:09] their experiences.

[00:31:10] And so after years of figuring this out, that's how emotional intelligence started to

[00:31:15] take shape. Now there's methods and there's measurements to help you understand your current

[00:31:20] level of emotional intelligence and develop your emotional intelligence to the next level.

[00:31:25] And so it really all comes down to understanding how your emotional and the rational sections

[00:31:31] of your brain, uh, influence your thoughts and your feelings and your behaviors.

[00:31:35] And so the book and all of my coaching, it emphasizes that a lot and how critical emotional

[00:31:40] intelligence development is, uh, to us as, as people. So that's what I really dig into.

[00:31:46] Well, let me ask you this. Uh, my wife says, I don't have much emotional intelligence at all.

[00:31:52] She's like, Oh my gosh, you just are like a 12 year old. So that's how I discovered my emotional

[00:31:57] intelligence. But how did you kind of discover yours through your journey?

[00:32:01] So the way that I discovered it was when you, it really has to do with, I think, social skills.

[00:32:10] Um, and I had to put it that way. That's what emotional intelligence is. Uh, but it's your

[00:32:15] ability to empathize with people. It's your ability to, uh, to understand who you are and how you impact

[00:32:23] yourself and how you impact other people. And that usually has to do with social skills. Um,

[00:32:29] like what, what is it about me? What's my default? Um, is it healthy? Is it good? Can I walk into a

[00:32:35] room and can I interact well with people? Do I leave people, um, wanting to interact with me again? Or do I,

[00:32:42] do I leave people wanting to go as far away from me as possible? Um, you know, it's, it's that kind of

[00:32:48] stuff. And so, um, when you walk into a room and you understand that your presence, uh, holds such weight

[00:32:56] that you can either shift it in a good way or you can shift it in a bad way is really important.

[00:33:02] And so what I, when I discovered it was growing up, um, you know, my parents were, my parents owned

[00:33:08] their own business. I was around adults all the time. Um, so I was talking with a lot of people,

[00:33:14] um, at a young age. Um, I had my, my parents were hard workers. And so I had this,

[00:33:20] these values instilled in me and hard work and communication and making a difference and,

[00:33:25] and having a purposeful impact. And so I love to work hard. I love to interact with people.

[00:33:31] Um, and then I noticed like when I started working in church ministry, um, I was a creative at heart,

[00:33:37] like still am, but I was the kid who constantly had a notebook in hand, was constantly drawing,

[00:33:43] had AirPods in or they weren't AirPods back then, but you know, I had like my Walkman CD player.

[00:33:48] Um, don't date yourself now. Um, and so I'm constantly listening to music, constantly writing

[00:33:55] stories, you know, and, and I was very much like, okay with being by myself, but then as soon as I

[00:34:02] would get around people that would give me energy too. Like I could do that just as well. Right.

[00:34:07] Um, and so I think it had a lot to do with my upbringing. Um, and it also had a lot to do with

[00:34:12] when I got into church world, I was still behind the scenes. I was still in church production.

[00:34:18] These opportunities to kind of step up into different platforms and given different opportunities

[00:34:24] to take the lead in some things. And when I stepped up and whenever it, it seemed like whenever I would

[00:34:30] talk up, I guess you could say, like I'd open my mouth and I'd say something, the leaders would kind

[00:34:35] of lean in a little bit and they would go, Oh, um, so much. So one time my boss said to me, he's like,

[00:34:40] Hey, you know, you don't, you don't talk much in meetings, but when you do, did you notice that

[00:34:46] everyone listens? Like they want to hear what you have to say. Um, and so little by little,

[00:34:52] I started to notice like, Oh, maybe I've got these leadership skills and maybe I've got, um,

[00:34:58] I've got the ability to, to, to do this. And so, um, I just, I just noticed then when I started to

[00:35:04] study leadership that all of the things that make up all the components of emotional intelligence,

[00:35:09] and there's a lot of different components to it. Um, I started to see that I have, um, higher levels

[00:35:16] and, and, and a good, a good amount of those, but there's still some that I got to work on. Like

[00:35:21] when it comes up to like, you know, and I talk about this in my book, like appreciating people

[00:35:26] that doesn't always come as easy to me, like celebrating wins. Like I've learned how to do that,

[00:35:32] but I've really had to learn how to do it. It wasn't something that came easy to me.

[00:35:36] You said something about social skills there. And I know you spent some time on that in the book.

[00:35:40] Yeah. Techs are horrible at this. Um, I mean, but most leaders, and I even fell into this trap.

[00:35:46] Yeah. Uh, would ignore the social skills because their mixed talent was awesome. They're an amazing

[00:35:52] sound engineer or they can run pro presenter. Well, they never miss a cue. They're totally awesome.

[00:35:58] Yeah. But tell our audience why social skills are important and, and why we should focus on them.

[00:36:05] Yeah. Well, I will say this. I've got, I've got tech artists on my team. They're not horrible at it.

[00:36:10] Here's what I would say. I got to say this, David. I think, you know how people have selective

[00:36:16] listening? I think, I think my guys, at least. My kid has selective listening.

[00:36:20] My guys, at least, right. Some of them have like what I call like selective social skills. Like they

[00:36:26] know, they know how to be social when they want to be. And with the people that they want to be social

[00:36:31] with, it just doesn't happen with everybody. Um, let's see why, why is it important for us to focus

[00:36:37] on developing social skills? Um, I would say this one major reason, if I could put it this way,

[00:36:42] um, technical talent will only get you so far for so long. Say that again. Technical talent

[00:36:49] will only get you so far for so long. I think that's just facts. We, we hit our, we hit our ceiling

[00:36:55] at some point. And so, uh, you're right. A lot of, a lot of techs are good at, um, doing the technical

[00:37:03] thing, but they're not great at engaging with a lot of people. And, uh, I think the problem with that

[00:37:08] is the technical side is what you're good at, but the social skills side has to do with who you are.

[00:37:17] And, um, when we just like, when we allow people, um, to just kind of stick with what they're good at

[00:37:26] and you don't try to elevate or let people know who you are, like you're, you're, you're,

[00:37:32] you're missing like a, like a, a big chunk of who that person is. Right. So your ability to, to,

[00:37:39] to relate in healthy and productive ways to people, it just really, it matters a lot. People get hired

[00:37:44] all the time, David at first, right? Because they're really good at something like they've got

[00:37:49] the drive, they've got the intellect, they have the skills, they have the abilities. And then later,

[00:37:54] unfortunately they're let go because they lack the ability to get along with people or they lack

[00:38:00] the ability to collaborate with people. And so in the book, yeah, I dig into the importance of

[00:38:06] like leading with empathy. Uh, we explore frameworks like listening. Uh, I've got assessments to help

[00:38:14] people discover their communication and their leadership styles. I talk about adaptability

[00:38:21] and the ability to like give feedback and navigate difficult conversations. The, the entire book largely

[00:38:28] is about developing interpersonal skills, developing your emotional intelligence, which all have to do

[00:38:35] with managing your relationships. That's how important it is. And so as far as leaders go though, who have

[00:38:42] the tech artists who don't want to engage because they're just good at pushing the buttons. Um, man, if I can,

[00:38:49] if I can speak to them for a second, I would say like they are like a leader's highest calling is to unlock the

[00:38:57] potential of someone else. And so if a leader sees something that needs to be addressed or they have

[00:39:03] someone on their team that they know they can develop that leaders in action in addressing and

[00:39:09] helping someone grow to the next level is preventing that person from going and growing into all that God

[00:39:14] has for them. And so maybe that team member does lack the awareness, but if a leader sees it, they need

[00:39:20] to say it in an honorable way and not let that person stagnate. That's what the guidance and the

[00:39:24] direction of leadership is all about. Nicole, that that's really strong, especially the listening part.

[00:39:29] I, I really struggled with that. And I finally had to figure out I need, when somebody is talking

[00:39:35] to me, I need to stop, turn and look them in the eye. If I wasn't, and you know, I was on my phone or,

[00:39:42] you know, checking an email or doing whatever, I wasn't really listening to them. And even if I

[00:39:47] heard them, which I think there's a difference between listening and hearing, even if I heard them,

[00:39:52] I really wasn't listening or they didn't see that I was listening.

[00:39:57] And I get this comment a lot from texts. They say, Hey, I never can get my budget approved. I

[00:40:03] never can get the thing that I need. And a lot of times they don't realize how social skills apply to

[00:40:09] that. Pastors and leaders, especially when it gets to the, you know, the budget area where they're

[00:40:14] signing off on things, they feel things differently. They see things differently. They don't see red light,

[00:40:21] blue light, mic on, mic off. You know, the X3245 piece isn't working. They see how's this going to help us

[00:40:31] reach more people for Jesus? How's this going to help the single mother? And social skills are important

[00:40:36] at communicating on their level. And one thing I became really good at, it was not selling money or selling the

[00:40:43] product, but was talking to my leader in the way that he would understand it. I wouldn't come in and say, Hey,

[00:40:51] we need a new X3245. Like I said, I'd come in and say, Hey, if we don't have this piece of gear,

[00:40:58] it's going to make it very hard for people who come to the front of the platform to see what's going on

[00:41:04] and to hear what's going on. And because of how I was able to talk at that leader's level,

[00:41:10] it allowed more tech purchases to happen, more budget approvals to happen quicker. And I'm not saying

[00:41:16] that that will happen every time because there's obviously a lot of things that go on in the background,

[00:41:20] but the more you can communicate socially with your pastors, the easier it is for them to understand

[00:41:26] what you do and to eventually purchase the things you need to make it happen. You agree with that?

[00:41:33] Absolutely. Yeah. It all matters. You know, we can't just talk about the what we've got to talk

[00:41:39] about the why. That's the most important thing. But it's got to be a good enough why, right?

[00:41:45] Yeah. You just took 45 seconds of me talking and you said it in one line. We can't talk about the

[00:41:51] what we need to talk about the why. That's exactly what I would do. I would say, here's why we need

[00:41:57] this, not the what. You know, it's also careful thought about what you're about to present. So talk

[00:42:04] a little bit about consideration. You bring that up in the book and you kind of describe it as careful

[00:42:10] thought, typically over a period of time. That's really what it is. But help us understand what

[00:42:15] consideration is. Unpack that for us, if I can talk here. Unpack that for us a little bit.

[00:42:21] Yeah, absolutely. I believe it's, so consideration is, and well, I'll put it to you this way.

[00:42:30] Consideration is important because leaders who practice the value of being a considerate person

[00:42:37] are a force for good, okay? So we need to be able to not just get stuck in the daily grind.

[00:42:49] We need to be able to pull our heads out of the day-to-day, minute-to-minute, to-do list type things

[00:42:58] and to take the time to get away to consider things. And so what I've found, I've found this to be true

[00:43:05] because the leaders who do place that value on being a considerate person are the people who

[00:43:11] are setting aside intentional time. They're considering their life and their leadership.

[00:43:16] They are considering the organization. They're considering the people that they've been entrusted

[00:43:21] to lead. And our ability to take the time to think is important because we need to interpret

[00:43:28] and make sense of our experiences. We need to do that in order to develop and better ourselves

[00:43:36] and to develop other people. It makes a big difference. It's essential. So it's important

[00:43:43] because a lot of times we just don't take the time to do it. Consideration takes time. We want to move

[00:43:50] too quick. We've got too many meetings. We've got too much feedback to give. We have things to approve.

[00:43:56] Like all of these things get in the way of us taking the time to think. Sometimes people,

[00:44:01] I've heard people say, well, I can't take the time to think because like, I feel like I'm not doing

[00:44:05] anything. Like I'm on the clock, right? Like I'm on the clock. I've got work to do. There's email

[00:44:10] setting in my inbox. I can't go and do an offsite with myself for like a half hour or not a half hour,

[00:44:17] like a half day and go and just think about all these things. And I'm like, then why? But why?

[00:44:22] Why? Because then the things that you're going to think about are the things that you can then go

[00:44:27] ahead and move forward in like maybe three to five months, right? If not, you're just going to be stuck

[00:44:31] here maintaining all the things that you currently have going on, but you're not fixing or improving

[00:44:35] or moving anything forward. You're just doing the same thing over and over again. And so that's why

[00:44:40] consideration is important. And I think like, I also think like it's in the Bible. All right? Like we

[00:44:49] see examples of this in the Bible. Can I say that? In the book of Nehemiah. Okay. And I love the book

[00:44:55] of Nehemiah because he's such a thoughtful and considerate leader in it. But in the book of

[00:45:01] Nehemiah, he is, his brothers come and some of the people from Jerusalem come and they tell him that

[00:45:07] the city walls have been destroyed and that the city of Jerusalem is in, is in, in like a dire time

[00:45:14] right now. And so Nehemiah is, he's like, he's bent out of shape about this. He's in a really bad way.

[00:45:20] He's grieving. And so what does he do? He goes to God and he prays. He prays on behalf of his people.

[00:45:28] And then we see, and that's all in chapter one. In chapter two, we see that the very next thing

[00:45:32] that happens is he goes, he goes forward to King Artaxerxes and he's the cupbearer. So he's in

[00:45:39] the King's presence. You were not, you are not allowed to be gloomy in the King's presence. And

[00:45:44] so he sees Nehemiah and he goes, what's wrong with you? Right? And he goes, well, and he tells him

[00:45:49] about this news about his people and the city. And he goes, I'm, I'm like, I'm really upset about it.

[00:45:55] And the King goes, well, what is it that you need? What is it that you need? And if you,

[00:46:02] there's some key things that you miss in there, but from chapter one to chapter two,

[00:46:06] it basically says that Nehemiah sat for four months and he just prayed and he thought about

[00:46:14] those things. And I believe that in those four months that he was sitting before God and he

[00:46:21] was thinking and he was praying and he was saying, he was saying, what would I do if I had a chance

[00:46:26] to respond? What would I do if I had a chance to help my people? And then when the King says,

[00:46:33] he literally lists everything out.

[00:46:37] He had it right there.

[00:46:38] And then he goes and he does it. So think about the, think about Nehemiah might've not been able

[00:46:44] to do all those things if he hadn't spent those four months in thoughtful consideration,

[00:46:48] prayerful consideration. So that's why it's important. I had to get a little bit, had to

[00:46:54] preach a little bit on that. I think my camera's out of focus. There we go.

[00:46:58] Yeah, it's okay to bring up the Bible on a Christian tech arts podcast. You know, one thing

[00:47:03] that I say, and I know a lot of people do this as well. And when I read your book and, you know,

[00:47:08] about consideration and stuff, I thought of this, you know, when I have a big decision or a decision,

[00:47:14] sometimes, especially if there's irritabilities in it, like something's irritating me about what I have

[00:47:19] to decide, I'll say, you know what? I'm going to sleep on it. And what's interesting is almost,

[00:47:25] almost a hundred percent of the time, the decision I was going to make changes the next day to a

[00:47:33] different decision because I slept on it. I thought about it. I considered it and I considered

[00:47:40] all angles of it, you know, how it would affect the one person or me or whatever. And I made a

[00:47:47] different decision. So I definitely think consideration is, um, is important. So question for you.

[00:47:54] Um, in your last chapter of your book, you cried out, what is wrong with me?

[00:48:00] Yes.

[00:48:02] Did you ever find it out?

[00:48:04] Yeah, that, so that's the, that was the chapter on, um, appreciating it's on celebrating and

[00:48:10] appreciating your team members. So this is the part that I alluded to a little bit earlier when I was

[00:48:14] talking about what I learned about myself with emotional intelligence. Um, so the, the one thing

[00:48:20] that we, that I talk about is, um, the need to celebrate and appreciate your people. And so I

[00:48:25] talk about, um, like, you know, the, the five love languages, right? So it's like, uh, whatever.

[00:48:32] You talked about it a little bit in your book.

[00:48:33] I thought, and now my brain's, brain's drawing a blank because I'm on spot. Right. But the five

[00:48:38] love languages essentially are, let's see. Yeah. Physical touch, quality time, uh, gifts,

[00:48:46] acts of service and words of affirmation. Right. And basically I, I'm, I'm trying to figure out

[00:48:57] like, what is it about me where I'm, I'm, I let me back up. Hold on. I'm jumping ahead. Let me back

[00:49:03] up. Here's what I will say about this. I had a lot of people in my life who were really good

[00:49:10] at appreciating me, celebrating me, celebrating team wins. And I saw it modeled a lot, but I had

[00:49:19] a hard time doing it because I was the type of person who was just like onto the next thing.

[00:49:25] Okay. And it's not because I didn't have it modeled for me. It's just, for some reason,

[00:49:33] my brain didn't think about that. Like, I didn't think like, Hey, my team just did this thing.

[00:49:38] Let me make a point to celebrate them. Let's go do a team dinner, do something right to make a big

[00:49:44] deal out of it. Let's go celebrate. And what I realized was that for me, it wasn't something that

[00:49:52] was necessary. It wasn't something that I expected. Okay. And so I knew that, that I knew that about me,

[00:50:01] but I also knew that was wrong about me because if I wasn't expecting it, then I knew my tendency

[00:50:08] was not going to be to do it for other people. Okay. So that's what made me say, what's wrong

[00:50:14] with me? Like, why doesn't this come easy to me? Why is this something that I feel like I don't need?

[00:50:19] Right. And we always say to people, like, I don't like to be the center of attention. I don't like,

[00:50:23] uh, you know, the spotlight on me, whatever. Well, that's not what appreciation is about. That's not

[00:50:27] what celebration is about. But what happened was I started to try to figure this out and I found

[00:50:33] the five love languages completely unrelated to what we were, what I was trying to figure out about

[00:50:39] myself with not being able to celebrate and appreciate people. Um, but I went ahead and I

[00:50:44] said, Oh, okay, let me take this test. So I'm high on, um, words of affirmation, physical touch and time.

[00:50:51] Okay. Um, and so I, I started to go, okay, maybe this is it because the, the majority of the people,

[00:51:00] the way that you appreciate people is through like taking, like going and buying a gift. Like a lot

[00:51:06] of people wanted going like, you know, like go buy me like a little candle. And I'm like, why would I

[00:51:12] buy a candle? I don't need a candle. I don't like candles. So anyway, it basically what I learned was

[00:51:17] when whatever it is, however you like to be appreciated or however, whatever your love

[00:51:25] language is, um, you are likely to appreciate people the same way. Okay. Um, and so if that is

[00:51:33] not their love language, if that's not their appreciation language, then you've got to work

[00:51:39] to try harder. If those love languages or those languages of appreciation are lower on your list.

[00:51:46] So gift giving, um, acts of service, all that stuff, those are a little bit lower on my list

[00:51:52] because I don't like to be appreciated that way. I like for people to spend time with me.

[00:51:58] I like for people, um, to, you know, give me a high five when they see me or a fist bump. I like when,

[00:52:04] I like for people, uh, to say, Hey, you did a great job. I loved how you did X, Y, Z over there.

[00:52:10] Right. Um, that's all I need. I don't need anything more than that. But other people,

[00:52:16] they require more, they need more and that's okay. I just had to learn how to work a little

[00:52:20] bit harder at that. So I am a terrible gift giver, but when it comes up to words, um, and when it comes

[00:52:27] up to spending time with people, um, I can do that all day long. Yeah, no, that's cool. When you say

[00:52:33] terrible gift giver, are you the one that re-gifts? Are you the one that re-gifts?

[00:52:37] No, I don't re-gift. I just forget to gift. Um, or I'm the one that's like doing it last minute.

[00:52:43] So usually I have help. I have people help me remember people's birthdays.

[00:52:50] But see, the thing is, is like people say, people say, what do you want for your birthday?

[00:52:54] What do you want for Christmas? And I'm like, nothing. I don't need anything, you know? And

[00:52:58] they're like, well, what do you want to do? What do you want to do for your birthday? I was like,

[00:53:00] let's just go get some food. Because again, it's about the food. It's about hanging out. It's about

[00:53:05] the time. It's about proximity with each other. I don't need a thing. If I want something,

[00:53:09] I'll go get it myself. But I don't need a thing from somebody, you know?

[00:53:13] Yeah. When you're working with men and women who have egos and don't like to be wrong,

[00:53:18] how do you lead through that? Yeah, that's a great question. It's a big question too.

[00:53:23] Um, it really depends on the person. Um, it depends on, um, depends on who they are. It depends on

[00:53:33] my relational equity with them. Um, it depends on the setting, the context, like what the situation

[00:53:41] or the circumstance might be. Um, but what it comes down to is the relational equity piece.

[00:53:48] Um, it doesn't matter. Um, in, in my history of leading teams, um, I always work really hard to

[00:53:59] let people know that I'm a safe space. Um, I always want to let people know that I am there

[00:54:05] to have their back. Um, but what that means is I'm going to call them out when I see the pride.

[00:54:13] I am going to step in and not let things get out of hand. And I've always been that type of leader.

[00:54:20] I'll give you an example, David. We're talking about, um, we're in the middle of a 40th anniversary

[00:54:27] celebration or we're leading up to Christ community's 40th, uh, anniversary. And, um, I,

[00:54:34] I, we are, we're, we're in the process of designing and creating and trying to, uh, like understand

[00:54:44] where the Holy Spirit wants us to go with these services. Right. And we get into brainstorming

[00:54:49] meetings or we get into conversations. And the first thing that I pray every time, and I've

[00:54:55] been praying this lately because everybody, everybody's involved in all the things, right.

[00:54:59] is that we would set our pride to the side. I know everybody is susceptible to pride,

[00:55:09] but I would imagine, and I truly believe it's true that creative and tech artists, there's more,

[00:55:14] we're more susceptible to it because, um, our attitudes, because of the fact that we can create

[00:55:20] and we can design and we can fix and we can build and we can do all the things. And usually we can do

[00:55:26] them better than everybody else. Um, and usually our opinions are the right ones and everybody else

[00:55:31] is wrong. Um, or if you give us all the tools we need, it will be perfect. It'll be exactly. So

[00:55:38] all the things, right. So I've been praying that my team would not be filled with pride, that they would

[00:55:44] be collaborative, that they would, that they would seek what the Holy Spirit wants for all of our

[00:55:51] services or for the video or for the graphic or for whatever. Right. Um, and so bring your ideas to

[00:55:58] the table, but hold them loosely because yours, it might not be it. It might, that might not be the

[00:56:02] one. Right. Um, and so to me, I have to have a relationship with people in order to be able to

[00:56:10] speak to them that way. Um, I've got to be a relational leader. So I don't know if that answers your

[00:56:15] question. I think I went off with my story, but, but at the end of the day, whether it's women or

[00:56:19] whether it's men, um, I'm not going to let it continue. If I see it, I'm going to call it out.

[00:56:26] I'm going to say it, but in order for me to say it, I need to have a relationship with them where

[00:56:30] they know I've got their best interests at heart. And that's the foundation. If you start there,

[00:56:35] then the pride stuff is pretty easy. That's, that's good insights. What's your favorite chapter in the

[00:56:40] book? Oh, that's a tough one to answer. Um, they're all my favorite for different reasons. Do I have to pick

[00:56:47] one? Yeah. I'm going to make you pick one. I'll pick one. I'll pick one. Um, I'm going to say the

[00:56:53] chapter on communication styles is my favorite. Um, because I constantly hear people talking about

[00:57:01] how impactful and eyeopening, uh, that one is for them, uh, in discovering their primary and their

[00:57:08] secondary communication styles, because it's the chapter that's got like the largest assessment in

[00:57:13] it. And so it really digs into helping people, um, you know, figure out who they are and how

[00:57:20] they're wired, but then it gives them a lot of suggestions to help them grow in their communication

[00:57:24] and adapt to other people's communication styles based on the situation, um, or the certain,

[00:57:32] the, the, the, the person style that they're talking with. So I'll say that one. Why is it important

[00:57:37] to figure out your leadership style? Um, I'd say the same reason with the communication style

[00:57:43] is it's, it's, it's good to figure out both leadership and communication style because

[00:57:48] everybody has a default. Uh, we all have that primary and secondary go-to on how we communicate

[00:57:54] or how we make decisions, how we show up to people. Um, and so we have to understand that

[00:58:00] one leadership style, one communication style doesn't fit every situation, every person,

[00:58:06] every scenario. Uh, and then we have to learn how to adapt them in order to, uh, have better outcomes

[00:58:14] for ourselves, to provide better wellbeing and outcomes for other people. Um, so I think it,

[00:58:19] again, it comes back to that self-awareness piece, emotional intelligence, like who am I? Uh, what's my

[00:58:25] default? How do I usually do X, Y, or Z? Uh, and then managing yourself in a more productive

[00:58:31] way. So it's like, okay, so how does, how does someone experience me when I do this? Or when I

[00:58:37] say that, uh, is my default helpful in this case? If not, then what style is going to fit? Uh, like

[00:58:44] what, what do I need to do, you know, in order to make it better for the people I'm leading? So

[00:58:48] if you go to Google and you type in leadership styles, you're probably going to get like,

[00:58:55] you know, some resources will give you five or six different leadership styles.

[00:58:58] Some will give you a 14 or 15 leadership styles. Um, but over the past 10 years,

[00:59:05] I've really discovered that there's four styles that when used in connection and in collaboration

[00:59:12] with one another, they create the best outcomes and environments for teams to thrive. So that's

[00:59:18] why it's so important to figure out. Yeah. I just Googled it. Six, 10, 15. Yeah. It's all over the place.

[00:59:25] It's all over the place. It kind of leads me to the next thing that we talk communication,

[00:59:29] talk leadership. Um, I think this is a big one. You talk about this in the book feedback. Um,

[00:59:35] why is that important? And, uh, how can it help me with difficult situations?

[00:59:41] This chapter is probably the one that like rocks the people, rocks people the most. Like when I say

[00:59:47] rock, like it convicts them the most. Um, it, it moves them to like, to really say, gosh,

[00:59:53] I got to start that conversation with people. So I'm glad you're asking. Um, feedback is important

[00:59:58] because it helps us grow, right? Like that's an easy answer. It's an easy answer, but I don't think

[01:00:03] a lot of people know that feedback helps us grow. That is such a great statement. It helps us grow.

[01:00:10] It helps us understand what's going on. That's right. Feedback helps us grow. It's definitely not

[01:00:16] fun, uh, sometimes to hear, um, but it's, but it's necessary. Uh, we've have to understand where

[01:00:25] we're doing well so that we can maximize those areas. We need to understand where we can improve

[01:00:31] so we can intentionally try to get better. Um, and so just, uh, just about everybody, you know,

[01:00:37] knows has heard feedback. They might've heard that it's good for them, but maybe they don't believe

[01:00:42] it because they haven't had good interactions with it or haven't had a good, good. They haven't

[01:00:47] gotten good feedback. Who knows? You know, but if, if I will say this, like usually it's not something

[01:00:54] we want to hear or people don't think it helps them grow because usually it translates in their mind

[01:01:00] as I'm not doing a good job or I'm not good enough. So that's why people don't see the value

[01:01:06] and feedback. And I think the reason for that, it has to do with three things. The first thing it has

[01:01:14] to do with is that a lot of people just have a difficult time knowing how to give clear,

[01:01:21] uh, helpful, actionable feedback that actually leads people to positive action. The second reason,

[01:01:27] um, is because there are a lot of people who struggle on the receiving end of feedback. They don't

[01:01:33] receive feedback. Well, um, they don't know how to handle it in a productive way. Even if the feedback

[01:01:38] giver does a good job in giving the feedback, that person still struggles with it because again,

[01:01:44] I'm not doing a good job. I'm not good enough. And then the third reason is because people usually

[01:01:51] only hear one type of feedback, which is the corrective feedback. It's the feedback that says

[01:01:56] you need to do better in this area, which means that they don't often don't hear the other type of

[01:02:03] feedback, which is the process of telling people, Hey, you're doing well in this area. And I'm going

[01:02:08] to give you an encouragement. I'm going to appreciate for appreciate this, uh, appreciate you for this.

[01:02:12] And so when all of those types of feedback are missing from the conversation, we create malnourished

[01:02:20] people. They don't get what they need. They don't have the right kind of nutrients to move forward

[01:02:26] in a healthy way. And so most of the time, those three things are at play at the same exact time,

[01:02:34] which is what makes feedback really, really complex. And so that's one side of the spectrum.

[01:02:39] Then you've got this complete other side of the spectrum where you've got people who just don't

[01:02:43] want to give it at all costs. They avoid the difficult conversations at all costs. So they've

[01:02:48] got people who they're frustrated with. No one's growing the excellence of the organization and the

[01:02:54] outcomes keep declining all because nobody wants to talk about it. Right. And so feedback is important

[01:02:59] if I can summarize it, because it helps us know where we're standing, where we, where do we stand

[01:03:05] with people? What are we doing? Well, it's important because it helps us know where we're falling short.

[01:03:10] These are the things we need to do better. And then it protects our relationships. That's the really

[01:03:15] good one. Um, it prevents people from becoming frustrated and resentful towards one another.

[01:03:21] How can you expect something for someone if you're not willing to talk about it with them?

[01:03:26] So I'll, I'll, I'll sum it up this way. Look at it this way for all, all the tech artists out there.

[01:03:32] The biggest thing that stands in between us identifying a problem and a desired resolution

[01:03:40] is lag time. It's delay. It's the time between knowing that you should address something that

[01:03:47] someone did or someone said, and then actually going and doing it. And so if we reduce the delay

[01:03:53] or eliminate it altogether, everything gets better. It gets easier. So when you think about a weekend

[01:03:59] service, if you think about a show that you've been on recently, if you would have identified a

[01:04:05] delay in the audio, or you saw that the sync, like the audio and the video weren't synced up,

[01:04:11] would you just leave it alone? No. You would go in there and you would jump in and you would

[01:04:15] identify where the problem's coming from and you would fix it. Well, it's the same thing. You've

[01:04:20] got to think about feedback the same way. You just get in there and you have the conversation.

[01:04:25] You learn the frameworks to help you navigate the conversation well, and you just start it. And

[01:04:30] there might be times where at first you don't do it all that well, but you'll learn as you go. I did

[01:04:35] and everybody else can too. One thing I see a lot of times with feedback is sarcasm.

[01:04:41] Oh yeah. And I think a lot of texts generate and deliver feedback through the train or the vehicle

[01:04:51] of sarcasm. And sarcasm cuts. It's hurtful. Everybody laughs and you think it's funny,

[01:05:00] but it's bad feedback. And I think a lot of technicians and techs in church, especially in

[01:05:07] the secular world. When I worked in the secular world, sarcasm was the way of delivering feedback.

[01:05:14] And I think a lot of people are scared of feedback because of sarcasm, because how it's been delivered

[01:05:20] in the past. And so what I tell people is like, hey, if you're going to give some feedback and you're

[01:05:27] in a leadership position, sometimes you can get away from the sarcasm by just asking a few questions.

[01:05:34] So instead of delivering it, say, hey, why did this happen? Or why did that happen?

[01:05:41] And a lot of times you will get a response that tells you they've already figured it out.

[01:05:47] They already understand what's going on. And maybe you give them a little nuance to it.

[01:05:52] But typically if you're asking the question to the person and letting them deliver an answer to you,

[01:05:58] it's an easy way to remove sarcasm from it. I think a lot of times when you deliver the feedback

[01:06:04] directly and you're not used to giving good feedback, you're not used to leading with a

[01:06:09] positive or making sure that the negative is framed in a positive, you will tend to deliver it in a

[01:06:16] very sarcastic way that just cuts and hurts and shuts down response. But if you ask questions,

[01:06:22] hey, just help me understand why this happened on Sunday. A lot of times you will receive an answer

[01:06:30] that tells you they've already figured it out. Or sometimes they'll say, I don't know. How can you

[01:06:35] help me with that? And your response to that is less sarcastic than typically going, you know, well,

[01:06:42] we always have Mike's go wrong, but you know, that's Jimmy, you know, or whatever, you know,

[01:06:46] instead of just delivering that sarcastic point of view. But along the lines of feedback, you wrote

[01:06:54] the book in kind of a workbook format. I shouldn't say kind of, you did write it in a workbook

[01:07:02] format, a course study format, which is really helpful for people like me. It's really helpful

[01:07:07] for me to kind of look at myself and see what's going on. And it's also helpful in a group environment

[01:07:13] because you can now engage in a small group environment. Tell me, tell me why you wrote it

[01:07:20] that way. What was your thinking behind it? I think again, I think it goes back to the fact that I want

[01:07:27] to, I want to move people from concept to application quickly. I've never been okay with just high level

[01:07:35] general overviews of principles. I want to help people get practical. That's one of the thing I love

[01:07:42] about coaching. Like when I'm with my clients and I'm coaching them, they can read the book, they can read

[01:07:46] through curriculum, they can do all the things. And then they can come with like, you know, hey, I want

[01:07:52] you to reflect on this or whatever. But at the end of the day, the most impact, the most results that they

[01:08:00] get is not just reading a book and working it out with themselves, but also saying, hey, okay, I did this.

[01:08:08] But I had this situation happen to me yesterday. What do I do about that? Right? And so then we go

[01:08:15] to the framework and we look at it. Right? And we say, okay, well, did we do these things or did you

[01:08:22] try these things? And they might go, yeah, or no. And if they say no, then I'll, they say yes. And

[01:08:27] I'll say, okay, walk me through the conversation and I'll listen to how it went. Right? Or they say,

[01:08:31] no, I didn't. I'll say, okay, well, let's talk about how that conversation could go. Right? And

[01:08:36] it's applying it to their context. That's the biggest thing. And so if I could give people,

[01:08:43] get people one step closer to that in a workbook format to taking a framework and learning how to

[01:08:49] apply it to their context. Awesome. That's why I wrote it that way. So how do people buy the book?

[01:08:54] How do we get our hands on it? Yeah. Amazon. It's on Amazon. So if you go there

[01:09:00] and you search for leadership frameworks, it'll pop up, or you can visit my website,

[01:09:05] thecreativelevel.com on the resources page, you'll find a link to the book there as well.

[01:09:11] I'm also going to give away a book. We always say we're going to give away one, but we have,

[01:09:17] we never turn people down if they email us in. So just a hint there, if you're number two or number

[01:09:23] three, you'll still get one. So if you email me at information at digitalgreatcommission.org,

[01:09:28] I will get you the book Leadership Frameworks by Nicole Lucas. It's an amazing book. So again,

[01:09:37] if you just want to go out and buy it, you can go to amazon.com and search for leadership

[01:09:43] frameworks. If you'd like Nicole to help your team enhance their leadership skills,

[01:09:48] lead a workshop on leadership or provide one-on-one coaching, be sure to visit today

[01:09:53] by going to thecreativelevel.com. That's thecreativelevel.com. Thank you, Nicole,

[01:10:01] for joining us on the Tech Arts Podcast and helping us become better leaders.

[01:10:06] Thanks, David. This was fun. Thanks for having me.

[01:10:08] Well, that wraps things up for today's episode. I can't wait to talk to you on the next Tech Arts

[01:10:12] Podcast. Until then, I'm David Leuschner, signing off by wishing you a great day and praying God

[01:10:18] blesses every moment of your week. See you soon. You have been listening to the Tech Arts Podcast

[01:10:23] presented by Digital Great Commission Ministries. DGCM is a 501c3 nonprofit that was started to help

[01:10:32] churches with all things technical. Whether you need help building a team, finding the right gear,

[01:10:37] or just a better understanding of the church tech world, DGCM is here for you. Find out more about

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