Audio Talk on Mic Technique with Buford Jones | PART 3

[00:00:16] Welcome to the Tech Arts Podcast and the Earthworks Audio Studios. My name is DL, so glad to have

[00:00:22] you joining us today. Today's podcast is part three of our conversation with Buford Jones.

[00:00:28] In this segment he talks about microphone technique. Buford brings some amazing insights on how to

[00:00:34] mic instruments, including examples of how he mic'd up Eric Clapton for the 1992 MTV Unplugged

[00:00:42] Show. I believe it was the first unplugged show that MTV did and many say it was the best

[00:00:48] sounding one. You don't want to miss a second of today's podcast.

[00:00:52] Before we jump into that conversation we have some giveaways to do. If you want to level

[00:00:57] up your leadership skills and be a better technical artist when it comes to leadership, then you're

[00:01:02] going to want this book called Leadership Frameworks. It was written by my friend Nicole Lucas to

[00:01:10] secure your free copy. Email me at Information at DigitalGreatCommission.org. It's a really

[00:01:18] cool book. It's got kind of a workshop format where you can kind of fill things in. It's a

[00:01:25] great book on leadership. You don't want to miss out on this free giveaway, so definitely email me

[00:01:31] at Information at DigitalGreatCommission.org. We're also giving away a sound wire by Sonnet.

[00:01:40] We did a tech tip on this a few episodes back. This is an all-in-one cable for plugging your

[00:01:47] laptop into your console. The cable is basically a sound card with built-in protection for phantom

[00:01:53] power. This is it right here. I don't know if you could see that, but it's got a USB connection

[00:01:58] here to plug into your laptop and then it goes straight to two XLRs. You can get it with this

[00:02:05] cool packet that can carry it right on your side if you want to be that person. But it's

[00:02:10] really cool. It's got phantom power protection for the XLRs and basically it's essentially

[00:02:16] a sound card here inside the USB connection. If you want to win that, we're giving it away

[00:02:23] be the first to email me at Information at DigitalGreatCommission.org and we'll ship you the sound

[00:02:30] wire by Sonnet. Again, to secure those freebies, email us at Information at DigitalGreatCommission.org.

[00:02:40] Okay now we have to pay for these giveaways, so hang on our interview with Buford Jones starts

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[00:04:05] That's audiovideolighting.com. Welcome back to the Tech Arts Podcast.

[00:04:12] Let's jump right into part three of our conversation with Buford Jones. We pick up with me asking

[00:04:18] Buford about microphone technique. Let's listen in. Earthworks makes some really awesome microphones

[00:04:25] and it kind of leads me to something I wanted to ask you when it comes to microphones.

[00:04:31] And that is, I think a lot of young people are missing this today, but the basics of audio,

[00:04:36] like mic technique, you know with waves plugins and there's nothing wrong with

[00:04:43] waves plugins and things of that nature. But I think a lot of what you had to do in the 70s and

[00:04:48] 80s when it comes to mic technique and having good microphones placed in the right places,

[00:04:54] talk a little bit about mic technique and the basics of audio and how it's getting

[00:04:59] missed today and what young people need to kind of look back towards in order to get better

[00:05:04] at their craft. I'd say first off, mic technique and choosing your mics. I'd sound companies

[00:05:11] used to ask me before the start of a tour, we're about to do what microphones you

[00:05:16] want us to bring. And I said, I want you to bring everything you got. And I need to see the

[00:05:23] instrument. So it's one of those things where I don't really like to predict it.

[00:05:29] I like to have a choice and try some things. Fortunately, the multi-platinum artists

[00:05:35] that we worked with, we had at least a week of rehearsals. Pink Floyd, we rehearsed for six weeks.

[00:05:44] But I think only in the 70s did you rehearse for a couple of days. So during that rehearsal period

[00:05:50] is where I changed a lot of mics out and tried things to make my final decision. That's why I

[00:05:55] say bring everything you got. But it's about listening and I can tell you numerous cases.

[00:06:02] And I was just in Australia, I think it's two years ago with Al Jarreau, maybe three years,

[00:06:09] right? Three years ago, Al Jarreau on his annual World Jazz thing in

[00:06:17] where we were doing in Australia. And he had a lot of really great musicians that played

[00:06:24] instruments that I didn't see every day, you know. And then somebody from stage,

[00:06:29] you know, where would my, you want us to put on this? And I said, I don't know. I'll be right

[00:06:32] there. We'll have a look at it. So, you know, if this is the instrument, not the microphone,

[00:06:38] I want to listen to it at several angles. I want to see how the sound develops,

[00:06:44] you know, and where it developed this particular was a bowed instrument. But other

[00:06:50] than that, I didn't know what it was. And as I found a sweet spot, just by moving my head,

[00:06:59] not the microphone, my head. And I'm like, Oh, okay, right here, I'm here in this vicinity.

[00:07:06] Let's mic it right there at a bit of a distance. Close mic is something that we have to do

[00:07:11] a lot in loud rock and roll in the early days because it bleed from one instrument to another

[00:07:18] somewhat. So that's fairly common, but I think we can still get away with sensible mic-ing. And

[00:07:25] I think that's where all engineers need to think about. And you know, your microphone choices,

[00:07:34] wow, we've got so many choices. It's over the top. I don't know how

[00:07:37] you can get any better than that. And I choose microphones. Now, I might want some that have

[00:07:44] a contour, but that's rare. Because I'm all about flat response and workable flat response.

[00:07:52] And some people misinterpret that to think I want to hear a flat response. No, I don't.

[00:07:57] I mix to a flat response. And here is where I put my contour at the console. I'm sorry,

[00:08:04] you're not seeing that. There's a little SSL thingy there. And where I want to

[00:08:13] contour the PA to my sound. And then that way, when I do that, it transfers to the tape recording

[00:08:21] mechanism. And it's a lot closer to what I'm talking about. So staying on there,

[00:08:28] give you another great, for instance. One is Eric Clapton who we did the first MTV Unplugged.

[00:08:37] The first one that started that whole series off, I'll say the first one when they started MTV Unplugged,

[00:08:43] Eric Clapton was the first one on it. And so I didn't really doubt with that atmosphere before

[00:08:48] we played in a studio there in London. And we of course wanted to keep the PA very,

[00:08:54] very low, which is my responsibility. And so I mic everything they were fine with however

[00:09:01] wanted to mic whatever. And so then I balanced the PA for the show and taping. And so I had found

[00:09:12] this technique and this would be a good illustration right here. And I'm gonna go find it for

[00:09:17] I'm gonna guitar right here. And I had read this in a, I think it's called REP or DB. They were

[00:09:28] magazines back in the 70s and they were talking about mic and acoustic instruments and pianos and

[00:09:36] guitars. And what they were showing was like this microphone here. If I just to position this,

[00:09:43] it's where the guitar itself and the microphone is almost directly over the whole shooting

[00:09:50] straight down. Now they had interviewed 10 on a particular article back in the early 70s,

[00:09:58] they'd interviewed 10 engineers by playing them different positions of the microphone

[00:10:04] and they'd all vote on which one sounded the most natural. And this one was number two.

[00:10:11] Oddly enough, number one was the PZM principle where the microphone set on the floor even taking

[00:10:17] a dynamic microphone pointed straight down the floor to 45. No, it's straight down and you're

[00:10:23] kind of playing at a 45 degree angle. Well, of course, you've got to, you can't patch your feet.

[00:10:32] But you hear the tapping. Yeah, it was for PZM principle. And this one was second

[00:10:37] to achieve the most natural sound of the instrument. So, you know, I started this and in my studio,

[00:10:45] I tried a few times and I said, you know, that works pretty cool. Now this person cannot breathe

[00:10:50] real heavy or if he's got a cold, we're going to get all that in the microphone quite a bit.

[00:10:57] Now we're talking about in a studio here really. But so what this is when you're playing

[00:11:03] like this, that microphone is very close to my ear. Now did you do this on the Eric Clapton

[00:11:09] MTV Unplugged? This is the concept you used on the acoustics? That's correct. Wow. And

[00:11:17] when I told him that, he said that that's just very unusual and I said, oh fine, I'm

[00:11:23] not going anywhere you tell me to. Think of it this way again, if I was just playing

[00:11:29] this instrument, you were in this room listening to me play this, you wouldn't stick your head right

[00:11:35] here. You just wouldn't and even if you were six feet away, well then you're hearing it develop

[00:11:41] in that time period. Well, we can't mic it that far away because of ambient noise and whatever. So

[00:11:47] we're restricted to come to it. But this guitar was not meant to be heard like that.

[00:11:54] So every listening online, he's holding it up to his head like it's not meant to come right out of the

[00:12:00] whole of the instrument. Try this kind of combination of both really the gel and to the

[00:12:07] musician and Eric was one of them and I'll try to get that finished where he listened to it

[00:12:13] later and he couldn't stop talking about it. And first he said, can we move it out like

[00:12:18] this a little bit? Can we kind of do that? And I said, yeah, I'm all right with that.

[00:12:23] We ended up back with it in here and Andy Fairweather Low was the other guitar player.

[00:12:28] They were both playing Ramirez classical guitars and Andy was fine with his straight up.

[00:12:35] And when Eric went in and listened to the playback in the truck, a recording truck, he

[00:12:42] came and told me so that thing sounds fascinating. It just sounds great.

[00:12:46] And I think what he see, that's where he hears it. This is where he hears it if that microphone

[00:12:53] is close to you. Now, is that the way it is meant to be heard? Well, to the listener it is to

[00:13:00] the player it is. And like I said, I've just had really good luck with that and oddly enough

[00:13:07] or interesting enough, it's the musicians that play it, the comment on it the most.

[00:13:15] You might hear a totally different guitar sound. But I think in that situation,

[00:13:21] Eric playing on the Ramirez that you want to get the value of that guitar. So we did and

[00:13:28] you can see that if you watch MTV unplugged with Eric Clapton. So yeah. And it's one

[00:13:33] of the most iconic that they did. I mean, the first one is still talked about today

[00:13:39] on the Eric Clapton MTV. Now, it sounds so natural, but you can't really do that live. So

[00:13:49] if you're mixing a live, what's your solution for live? Okay. So we did the show, MTV.

[00:13:58] And then Eric called me back to the dressing room after the show and he mentioned again,

[00:14:05] the guitar sounds amazing. He says, can we do that live? And I said, I don't think that question

[00:14:11] I asked you. Yeah, I don't really think so. I said if we did, we would have to reduce

[00:14:19] the volume of the PA. In other words, you would need to tell the audience that we're now going into

[00:14:28] an acoustic set. See, because we've been playing rock and roll. We've been playing loud, powerful

[00:14:35] rock and roll. And then if you go down to an acoustic set, most of the people are going to

[00:14:40] be going like, whatever the PA went out. No, PA didn't go out. We're going to do an

[00:14:44] acoustic set now. So I told him if you did that, if you mentioned it to them, whether we may not get

[00:14:51] tomatoes thrown at us or what? Just so that they got an idea. The level is, he played three songs.

[00:15:00] No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm thinking about one of these with George Harrison.

[00:15:06] So that was it. We played a UK tour and we tried it a couple of times at the Choco Prism. And

[00:15:18] I was quite surprised at the level that I got off of it. And it died down to a nice pleasant.

[00:15:26] It didn't seem to go away. It just came down to a nice pleasant acoustic set, which is what

[00:15:33] it should have been. But you could not have the master on the same or the SPL that you had been

[00:15:41] rocking out with and turn that microphone on and hope to get away with that. Because it takes

[00:15:47] some gain into the mic to do it. And so we did it. We had no problem with it. We did it in

[00:15:54] these large arenas. And he'd say a little bit before it come up. At first, it almost

[00:16:00] sounded to me like he didn't want to mention that. Then he thought, yeah, maybe good, I should. So he

[00:16:05] did. And he'd say a little bit about, you know, we're going to play an acoustic set. So it's going

[00:16:12] to be a little quieter and it was never had a complaint. Never had anything. I wasn't able

[00:16:19] to read any of the reviews from that show, but I don't know. It sounded pretty good. I mean,

[00:16:25] needless to say, that band was just an amazing band and played so well. And

[00:16:36] wow, just balanced things out. And I had enough room for the acoustic guitar to fit.

[00:16:42] And rather than see what's the max level, I can get out of it and let that dictate my level.

[00:16:48] Now I don't have to mix everything underneath it. No, I did pretty much what I would normally do.

[00:16:53] Just the overall volume is reduced a little bit. So it worked out real well. And then pianos, for

[00:17:00] instance, we for years struggled with that. Grand pianos in the 70s was very common. The nightmare

[00:17:09] of it all was that until sound productions in Dallas, Texas began buying 10 Steinway

[00:17:16] Grands and Rednam to rock stars, we would get a different piano every day. And then we would have

[00:17:23] to either put a health and still country man, whatever, frappe, whatever pickups on it, it'd

[00:17:30] always be different. It just some days absolute struggle. And then microphones inside it.

[00:17:38] I realized in time that me, Mike and the piano from inside, once again, is not the way

[00:17:45] that instrument was made to be heard. Nobody crawls inside a piano and even knows what it

[00:17:52] sounds like with the lid closed. If you can imagine the reflections, I mean from side to

[00:17:56] side, the reflections top to bottom off the harp to the top. There's a lot of reflections going on in

[00:18:03] there. So I started working later in my career with a piano lid open, even with a rock man.

[00:18:10] And if we could take the the lid and face it in a way that it is open, but it is toward the drum kit

[00:18:18] so that any direct sounds from the drum kit are not going to interfere with it too much.

[00:18:25] And I had real good luck with that as well. And just mic it from just a little bit out.

[00:18:30] It's where somebody would stand and listen to that piano. Now we can debate all night,

[00:18:35] can we make it sound better? Yeah, maybe you can. You can go inside and go through all this routine

[00:18:41] and get a bigger fuller sound. I'm sure Elton John, you know, they have their techniques

[00:18:46] they've done over the years and changed. But for me, it was pianos, especially when they were

[00:18:52] different every gig were always a struggle. And it seems like in important situations,

[00:18:57] a really good piano player. If I could, I would go to a little bit more of a distance

[00:19:03] mic'ing, which you don't normally see in PA. So the story of the young people is what I'm trying to

[00:19:08] say, don't have any set rules. Listen, listen to what it goes on. A kick drum, for instance,

[00:19:17] the kick drum we sure makes their SM 52, I think, and then AKG makes one, right?

[00:19:25] You know, these things have a low end boost. And I go, well, why do I need a low end boost?

[00:19:30] Because it's all the instrument. It is a low end boost. I don't need more low end in the microphone.

[00:19:38] In fact, I would favor a mic. I use SM 91 because I like the, in most cases,

[00:19:44] because I like the attack and that PZM principle microphone and its brightness over this and 52

[00:19:55] and others. And then that way I could add low end instead of sucking it out.

[00:20:01] You can make it sound like what you wanted it to sound like.

[00:20:04] Yes. And so there's a whole routine we used to try to acquire. And I'd say to the young

[00:20:13] people, anything you can do to couple that kick drum to the platform that he's playing on

[00:20:20] in any way to couple that platform even further down to the ground makes humongous difference in

[00:20:29] the solidarity of the kick drum. It makes it fatter, less resonant, less.

[00:20:40] So that's we carry sandbags, put a sandbag in it, weight it down. But I want a pillow going

[00:20:48] from the front head to the back head. I want them both touching and or a piece of foam,

[00:20:53] not where I've smothered them. No, I just don't want them sitting there hovering and moving while

[00:21:02] resonating or whatever resonating from the bass guitar or any other instruments like that.

[00:21:07] So I couple the front and the back head but try not to affect the tuning just

[00:21:14] and that worked out real well. A double mic as many has, I've triple mic to snare drum.

[00:21:21] Russ Conkel and I had a lot of fun with it and tried it. Where do you tell us where you put those

[00:21:26] mics on the snare drum in the kick? So you say double mic like inside and outside I'm assuming

[00:21:30] for the kick? Yeah, I think it's for more common. I see double mic and other people

[00:21:35] not just myself. I usually end up with one every time I have two and in and in and out.

[00:21:42] For some reason I just end up with the end just using it and I don't know.

[00:21:48] What about the snare drum? Where are you putting the mics on the snare? You said three microphones?

[00:21:53] I want the head of the microphone,

[00:21:57] the element over the snare drum itself. So this piece of paper was the snare drum,

[00:22:07] a square snare drum mind you, but this being the edges of it, I want that element just

[00:22:14] just a little bit over the head. The rest of it is sticking out here and that by the angle

[00:22:23] determines the amount of I think high end that we're hearing off this. We can

[00:22:29] accentuate the high end, not really accent it. We can just vary in the mic. Well,

[00:22:39] I think for better top I like to have it more like this. It gets a little fatter

[00:22:44] like this and it makes sense. And then I mic the bottom which I call the snare mic and what I

[00:22:51] call the snare is the snare. That's the band of little squiggly wires. That's what I want to hear

[00:23:01] the wires. So I'm mic in the snare when I go up underneath. I don't know if most engineers

[00:23:06] are doing that if they're just thinking, well, we'll get the bottom sound of the snare

[00:23:10] drum. Well, there's nothing wrong with that but I will concentrate more on getting it as close as I

[00:23:18] can get to the snares and then I will high pass them all the way up to about 800,000 cycles if

[00:23:26] the high pass filter has that range. Just to give you that you just want the rattle of that.

[00:23:31] Just one twaddle. Just one twaddle. And where do you put the third mic at?

[00:23:35] The third mic that we did with Russ Conkel and Jackson Brown, he would have the head off of his

[00:23:42] drum and oddly enough Carl Countryman, long before the Shurr SM98 was out, Carl Countryman had the

[00:23:49] ECM 101. It was about the size of your fingernail and about that thick eighth of it, a little bit

[00:23:59] more 360's and then this size here and a little cable on it and that went to the 48 volt so

[00:24:06] we could put that mic inside the snare drum and we take two rubber bands and inside the snare drum

[00:24:16] mount these two rubber bands where they cross and put that mic between those two rubber bands

[00:24:20] and that would hold it in there. And I found that on many things, it was too unusual of a sound

[00:24:33] until I had him play the cross stick, play cross stick on it. Wow! I mean this thing just

[00:24:39] come across, I mean right in your face and just click of the stick. Wow! So I only use that internal

[00:24:50] mic, I'll call it, on a couple of ballads and when he is going to cross stick and I'll have to

[00:24:56] turn it up while he plays that figure but as soon as he goes back to the snare I got to get

[00:25:01] that mic down. But I love challenges like that in my early years, I loved it you know I'm just always

[00:25:08] moving something, just constantly moving something so that was fun to me and worked out great.

[00:25:14] Russ and I we also tried with the Countrymans 101, he came out with a couple models after that

[00:25:22] this had been in 1980 that we were doing it, I don't think they sure come out till around 83, 84,

[00:25:29] I don't know somebody to tell me for sure on that but I know it was after the Countryman

[00:25:36] and we set up his drums where we tried this on the holdout tour and he had a pretty full set of

[00:25:43] drums, we mucked every drum with the 101 and then the cymbals on the cymbal stand

[00:25:50] we would make a little clip thing that come out of the cymbal and I tried mucking the

[00:25:56] cymbals from underneath and would have to be pretty close to them and it worked out amazingly well

[00:26:04] when you mucked the cymbals from underneath you lose a little bit of the attack

[00:26:08] which you gain a lot of sustain, really interesting sustain so I found myself doing that where

[00:26:19] yeah we mucked all the cymbals now this was a chore to try to mix I mean it was a little

[00:26:25] overkill but I was young energetic I love the challenge and I'd have so many engineers come

[00:26:34] up to the console and after they show it I didn't see a mic stand up there how did you get that

[00:26:39] drum sound I don't think they've ever seen the Countryman mic and I said oh there's mics up

[00:26:46] there they're just hidden but it made a beautiful drum set you'd see no additional hardware

[00:26:52] no mic stands no booms no nothing and it worked out very well but like I said it was quite complex

[00:27:01] I think it was a total of four overheads or cymbal mics excuse me cymbal mics is what we're

[00:27:08] going to call that so there'd be four of them and you know I concentrate on the ride the ride

[00:27:14] sounded really nice losing just a touch of the ting around 8k 10k but fine I can add that

[00:27:22] back I can put a little peak on parametric EQ at 8 or 10 and kind of get it back but the sustain

[00:27:30] was real interesting and really neat so we did I'm pretty sure the whole holdout tour

[00:27:39] on that and that was several months so that was unique and fun so that's where I said much

[00:27:46] earlier in talking about microphones I like to be very open I like to hear listen to the instrument

[00:27:54] first before I decide for sure what kind of mic on it and I used to do that with Russ Conkel I

[00:27:59] admired his playing so much and he's such a fine person to be around and a lot of times

[00:28:05] at rehearsals I would go up there and sit behind him right directly behind him I mean I'm almost

[00:28:11] touching him I wanted to hear what he was here hear exactly what he was hearing wow was that an

[00:28:18] experience and that's where I gained a lot of perspective on how to mic how somebody else does

[00:28:27] it's fine let them do it however they want to do it and I'm fine with it but it seemed like we all

[00:28:31] kind of stated the same principle overall I'm just saying be open listen listen to the sound

[00:28:38] of the instrument before you decide what kind of microphone you put on give you another example

[00:28:42] David Bowie uh what tour was that uh uh but anyway I had a um

[00:28:56] um

[00:28:57] buyer in 160 NC which was a ribbon microphone it's a small ball microphone was fairly small

[00:29:08] um it was like the I think they made the m80 or me 80 or m88 yeah they made the m88 it's kind

[00:29:17] of a smaller m88 but it's ribbon and you know most of us wouldn't choose a ribbon mic now here I had

[00:29:26] David in his earlier years he was in his late 20s early 30s then so you know his voice was

[00:29:34] still quite high and energetic and I found that a lot of his singing he was staying in the higher

[00:29:38] register so I was going I'm gonna look for a warm mic I'm kind of countering this you know

[00:29:47] to get a natural sound why don't I just put a warm mic on him and not eq it unless I have to

[00:29:53] so that's what I did ended up he loved it straight away because of the feel of it it was small easy

[00:30:00] to handle um he loved it and then what I was able to get out front was just that a warmer sound

[00:30:10] on when he went to higher registers which was fairly often so you know what I'm hearing you say

[00:30:19] Buford and I think this is something that a lot of young people who want to get into the industry

[00:30:23] need to hear use your ears I think today with digital consoles all the visuals that are in

[00:30:32] front of us I don't know how many guys I've seen go up to an audio console and they

[00:30:38] you know change the eq to what they think it should look like instead of using their ears I'm hearing

[00:30:44] you say use your ears listen to where the microphone should be and in terms of the piano or the

[00:30:51] acoustic guitar don't be afraid to experiment that's right yes I think that's something that gets missed

[00:30:58] today I don't know what's your use of everybody else is doing now on a touring basis for sure do

[00:31:05] that you know it's um sometimes in some shows and concerts we don't have time we don't have time to

[00:31:13] go up there and listen we're just thrown in a situation a festival situation and sure I understand

[00:31:19] the standard range of microphones and that's what they should be uh we might not have the

[00:31:25] time to do a sound check and there's there's times when you can't do what I'm saying

[00:31:32] but you can if you're on tour you should not have any problem doing that and then my crew

[00:31:39] they would watch how I position these microphones and what I do and then they would ensure that they

[00:31:45] get back to those positions uh if they were changed or anything between the show or the

[00:31:51] drummer bumped on them or whatever so they knew exactly what I was kind of doing and could

[00:31:56] just ensure that those microphones stayed there but yes be open be open minded and creative creative

[00:32:05] will uh I think surprise you a lot of times of what you might come up with and that is still

[00:32:12] within the boundaries of what you're there to do you have a little bit of flexibility

[00:32:16] we can't make it exactly like the record we want to get the hook signature

[00:32:21] to everywhere that we can but then it's it's live anyway let's um let's talk pa is a little bit

[00:32:30] Buford um you know what do you what pa's do you like first off and then I think the other

[00:32:38] question is what's the biggest mistake you see being made with the modern era pa

[00:32:43] I think it's coming around I've noticed the last uh

[00:32:49] 10 to 15 years more people are accepting the word you shouldn't use the word flat

[00:32:55] as john mire calls it equal amplitude response that is so critical and to me many people

[00:33:05] don't agree with me on that they'll tune a pa to steely dan and steely dan ain't playing tonight so

[00:33:13] to me why are you using steely dan to tune your pa well I know what steely dan sounds like well okay

[00:33:20] okay that's fine never the problem with that but don't uh you know use paint noise and

[00:33:26] send the system or use an analyzer and then you're usually told even by the best instructors

[00:33:32] after you've analyzed it you set it basically equal amplitude now put in your music you can listen

[00:33:38] to your music it was not satisfying to you no no no I'm sorry I'm not there uh if I put in my music

[00:33:48] to an equal amplitude pa and I play music off cd chances are it's going to sound thinner than what

[00:33:56] you're used to so I just go to where the taper turn comes into the console and I know my head

[00:34:04] room already by taking the base and turning it up if you want to thump people's chest that's fine

[00:34:10] I have no problem with that I have none but then again just do it at the console and then you'll

[00:34:17] find on this uh I think that's the most complains is that well low end and what it should be well

[00:34:24] the low end is uh in rock shows there's not what's supposed to be either it's highly

[00:34:31] exaggerated and we're so used to hearing it exaggerated fine once again I'll say if you

[00:34:38] want the exaggerated sound still do it at the console so anything that comes out to the show

[00:34:43] if I'm feeding it to a video truck and we're done straight to the truck or whatever uh I want to know

[00:34:53] that I've created the sound here so this started the way all this started with me is when the

[00:35:00] PAs were going out nobody was yeah around to teach me how to tune the PA another one with a microphone

[00:35:05] in it we had cassette machines back then a lot of people be for just said what's a cassette machine

[00:35:13] if you don't know go google it okay you popped it in you hit play you had to actually rewind

[00:35:20] things or fast forward yeah it's about this big anyway google it yeah you google it and that's

[00:35:27] and is low quality music reproduction and uh and they'll put that tape in and then the

[00:35:35] tuning of the PA say if it's a three-way system when I started show goes two-way system highs

[00:35:41] and lows that's it then it went from lows mid highs and then it went to a four-way so

[00:35:48] I noticed that to achieve this we want to go to the crossover if this is where I haven't been making

[00:35:57] my points while you're theoretically doing your tuning to the PA and we'll go to that low end and

[00:36:03] turn it up yeah yeah okay well you've just exaggerated your frequency response that you're

[00:36:14] fixing to so that's why when I first started making show tapes uh show code got us engineers a

[00:36:23] Nakamishi 550 now if you remember that but that was the first and probably only

[00:36:30] almost professional cassette machine it was in competition to the Noggerus uh the Noggerus

[00:36:37] real real that they would do films with and record and then uh I'm just going to shake

[00:36:43] my head here and act like I know what you're talking about okay I don't know about the Nogger

[00:36:49] Noggerushi cassette player cassette deck that was kind of flat and it's pretty big the meters up here

[00:36:57] and uh little cassette thing there and everybody that listened to it was just freaked out it was

[00:37:02] one of those you plug in headphones and they can't believe it when they're here in this come

[00:37:06] out of this machine at that time period and uh so when I record my console mix and then I play it back

[00:37:16] I was just really excited to get in the truck or back to hotel room at night off put on the headphones

[00:37:21] to listen to what I did and I'm going where's the bass guitar I'm not hearing the bass guitar

[00:37:26] I'm here maybe a little bit of tick on it and the kick drum just sounds like tick tack tick tack

[00:37:32] well I realize that probably on the console I'm reducing with high pass filters or reducing the

[00:37:40] low end because the kick drum is just too boomy in the room well and it went on for a couple of

[00:37:47] nights and I'm going I understood very easily I'm making recordings while a guitar amp or

[00:37:53] double stack Marshall was pointed at me and yeah okay I could say to the guitar player can you

[00:37:59] just turn that a little bit uh can you tilt it back a little bit uh just so the direct energy is not

[00:38:06] headed toward me um everybody out there who works a guitar players at churches is like

[00:38:13] and then he didn't move it he turned it but then he turned it up louder yeah right yeah well that

[00:38:21] can happen that can happen I don't know uh I think when you show them the results and when I say all

[00:38:29] I have to say to the guitar player hey look um this echo I'd rather apply this echo from the front

[00:38:35] of house with your guitar because when I apply the echo the echo returns in stereo so now you

[00:38:41] got a real wide dimension you can send me that guitar with echo already on it but it's

[00:38:48] mono it's not exciting to me and uh so uh therefore we were mentioning with that I sort of lost my

[00:39:01] train of thought I'm doing it after I passed 75 yeah we were talking about PAs and you know

[00:39:08] you were talking about you know mixing on and how the kick drum didn't have a lot of it was just

[00:39:13] tick tick tick yes and so I realized that what I need to do is stop adding at the crossover at the

[00:39:23] crossover or processor to the PA take that low end and turn it down and a lot of different

[00:39:30] PA companies that I worked with for almost the next well forever really uh I'd ask their

[00:39:39] engineers to give me a flat response with pink noise let me say something about pink noise

[00:39:48] and flat response when you're doing video you have color bars and without color bars especially

[00:39:57] used to now it's much more accurate but used to you had to go tweak the monitor the video

[00:40:02] video monitor to color bars and that way you knew more than not that your transfer is going to look

[00:40:12] more like it should in the color spectrum it should so to me pink noise and audio

[00:40:18] is the same thing as color bars in video and yeah that's a good way of putting it you know

[00:40:24] color bars and video helps you orient what your video should look like and gives you a standard

[00:40:29] waveform decibel meters on audio kind of the same thing uh yeah so you're saying get a pink

[00:40:37] noise out there get a tune your room to the flat response and don't necessarily accentuate different

[00:40:43] things and then use your console which is an instrument of worship use your console as your

[00:40:50] instrument to paint the atmosphere the more bass the more highs is that what you're saying

[00:40:56] exactly exactly you find yourself boosting frequencies that you never did before for instance

[00:41:02] on the bass guitar or the kick drum uh and you did that low end is somewhat problematic to get

[00:41:09] it out the way you want it so now with this reduced not reduced just simply flat energy coming

[00:41:14] out to the pa i can recognize frequencies more and be able to control them more now that i know

[00:41:20] it's it's tuned to that well the kick drum now i may take a 60 cycle narrow peak and and they just

[00:41:27] vary that 60 cycles and listen to it boost it up four or five db for a moment and just sweep it

[00:41:35] oh there's a sweet spot right there that's the musical spot leave it there whatever it is

[00:41:43] just leave it there so with subs introduced it's the same thing i want my subs to be on the

[00:41:49] same level uh as the high boxes and i will uh do the same and i found it just amazing that i can

[00:41:58] control that kick drum its low frequency and the bass guitar where they're not so overlapping

[00:42:05] in tonal characteristics and therefore muddying out the whole bottom of the pa i think you

[00:42:12] can get it much more cleaner and where you're adding the low end now that's also going to your

[00:42:19] recording medium so when you listen to it uh oh there's the bass i was looking for and there's

[00:42:27] the kick drum i was looking for so i learned that like i said in the mid 70s and i i did that all

[00:42:34] my career and i think it has a lot to do with david gilmore pink floyd asking me to do

[00:42:40] the live record uh it's called the delicate sound of thunder of the momentary laps reason tour

[00:42:48] and he did not listen to show tapes very much at all whenever we first started we were out two years

[00:42:56] so we went around the world a couple of times and and john carron and i always uh would key on

[00:43:03] one member of the band it might be the band leader it might be just somebody that not all the band

[00:43:08] most listen to these things they're done with it after they played it they there's done with it

[00:43:13] okay that's fine i can't get enough of it me i can't get enough of it you can't play it too many

[00:43:18] times for me but uh we're all different in aspects so with john and i would listen

[00:43:24] and john had an amazing this is on pink floyd this is a keyboard player john carron in addition

[00:43:30] to the rick right the original keyboard player that mainly stayed on organ and roads

[00:43:37] so john had an amazing background of the pink floyd library he could tell you where everyone was

[00:43:45] recorded who played on it in the sonnet so he was a tremendous help and he was saying the pad you

[00:43:53] really need to get to this guitar and keyboard working together that forms this pad just part

[00:44:00] of the hook of the song but at the same time it's the it's the raw element if i didn't have him telling

[00:44:05] me that i never would have known that i mean in other things and as i said taking this input from

[00:44:12] the band and then go try on it the next day it's a check would be exciting wow wow i did what they

[00:44:19] said you know i can listen on the back of the bus uh while we're traveling together because i i was

[00:44:27] fortunate enough to travel with the artists most all the artists have worked for and uh i can listen to

[00:44:34] whatever the bass player and the b3 playing together and they're talking and they're saying

[00:44:41] something about yeah in the bridge i was playing this trying to keep up with what you were playing

[00:44:46] you know tighten anyway they're not even saying that to me and but i'm listening to that and i go

[00:44:52] oh really the bass and the b3 really okay so i go out the next day and i'm whoa whoa whoa that's nice

[00:44:59] you know what i'm hearing you say buford is i'm hearing you say listen to feedback listen to

[00:45:07] feedback is in the good feedback listen to people talking to you and giving you advice

[00:45:13] listen to your mixes uh make adjustments to those learn you know i think one of the issues

[00:45:21] that i see when i go into churches is the sound engineer thinks that the way he's mixing is perfect

[00:45:27] or the way she's mixing is perfect they think uh that they're mixing for themselves and they don't

[00:45:33] realize they're actually mixing for the audience and what i'm hearing you say through your many

[00:45:38] years of experience is even if you went and mixed a show today and somebody said hey what if you

[00:45:43] try this i think you would go and tweak and see how that played out in your mix and i think

[00:45:49] that's missing in a lot of young people's mixes today the ability to learn from mistakes the ability

[00:45:57] to mix for the audience and not necessarily for themselves and i'm hearing you talk about that

[00:46:02] as you um as you describe how you learned and how you mixed i'm struggling with the church that i'm

[00:46:09] at now to get them to stay uh honor sound checks and know the difference between a sound check

[00:46:16] and a rehearsal we have to stop right there but you don't want to miss part four of our conversation

[00:46:22] with buford not only does he talk about the difference between sound checks and rehearsals

[00:46:27] but we also get into his spiritual journey it's an emotionally powerful episode and some

[00:46:33] of buford's answers may surprise you well that wraps things up for today's episode i can't

[00:46:38] wait to talk to you on the next tech arts podcast until then i'm david loisner signing off

[00:46:43] by wishing you a great day and praying god blesses every moment of your week see you soon

[00:46:49] you have been listening to the tech arts podcast presented by digital great commission ministries

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