When I Survey the Wondrous Cross

Come and see the victories of the cross. Christ's wounds are your healings, his agonies your repose, his conflicts your conquests, his groans your songs, his pains your ease, his shame your glory, his death your life, his sufferings your salvation. Matthew Henry. This is The Bright Forever. Hello and welcome to The Bright Forever. I am your host, Andy Peavyhouse, as we rediscover the power and richness of some of the greatest hymns of the faith. Last week, I had the privilege of sitting down and talking with my brother, Matt Peavyhouse, about the amazingly lyrical hymn, The Love of God, by Frederick Lehman. And this week will be a treat as well, as I talk about one of my all-time favorite hymn writers and nonconformists, Isaac Watts, with one of my all-time favorite people, my pastor, Tim Armstrong. Before I introduce Pastor Tim, let's talk a little bit about the hymn for this week. We are diving into what I believe to be one of the greatest pictures of the gospel, When I Survey the Wondrous Cross by Isaac Watts, aka the greatest hymn writer of the 1700s. Isaac Watts was born July 17th, 1674, in Southampton, England. And this hymn, and many others that Watts wrote, actually came about because of a rather heated argument he had with his father. Back in those days, services were very structured and ritualistic. And in the Church of England, it was common practice to let the priest have total control of the worship service. So here's how it kind of looked. There would be this special chanting choir that would chant the Psalms. Hymns were not allowed to be sung. The priest did the praying on behalf of the congregation. He did the preaching and the teaching, and the congregation was really not that involved. So on one given Sunday, Isaac came home from church. He was probably about 17 years old at the time. He came home from church after refusing to join the choir in the chanting of the Psalms. His father was incensed and wanted to know why his son would not take part in this. He asked Isaac why he refused to participate in worship. Isaac replied to his father that he hated chanting the Psalms because there was no feeling in it or in the whole worship service. In typical modern teenage fashion, this is what he said. Dad, church is boring. His father was so angry that he challenged his son to write some hymns. If he thought he was smarter than King David, Isaac took the challenge. Because he loved to write. And he wrote what he felt led to write by the Holy Spirit. And it was this nonconformity that led to Isaac Watts writing thousands of amazing poems and hymns. Some of the most powerful hymns of all time. The hymn we're talking about today, When I Survey the Wondrous Cross, was written in 1707. Hmm. Hmm. This hymn is probably one of the most beautiful pictures of the agony of the cross and the beauty of the cross and what we are called to as Christians if we allow the cross to loom large in our lives. So today I'm going to be talking with my pastor, Tim Armstrong. I first met Tim as he stepped into the role as interim pastor of our church. From the first time he preached, I turned to my wife and said, this man needs to be our new pastor. Tim and I became fast friends. And lo and behold, a few months later, it was announced that he was indeed moving from interim to permanent pastor of the Riverview campus. There's more to the story that he and I talk about, so I won't spoil it. Just know that he is a man of God whom I love dearly. And every chance I get to sit down and talk, laugh, and just hang out with him is time well spent. So with that said, I'll simply say, enjoy. We are here with my pastor, Tim Armstrong. He is... Awesome. I love him so much. I've known him... How long have we known each other now?

Well, see, I started at the church in February of last year.

So, I mean...

Six

months? Yeah, six months. It's about six months. But I feel like I've known you for years. But I am so glad to have you here on The Bright Forever talking about... A hymn and a hymn writer, honestly, that I absolutely love. And the hymn is When I Survey the Wondrous Cross, and the hymn writer is Isaac Watts. Yes, yes. So before we get started with actually talking about the hymn, I've been wanting to have you on just because you're my pastor. Yes. And I love talking to you about stuff. And we have such a great time when we do talk about it. So I just wanted to have you on. Can you kind of just talk about... who you are, how you ended up as my pastor. That's a story. That's a story. That could be a podcast by itself. It might be. So in case you're ever wondering, because the podcast I did with my girls, which this will be two weeks, two weeks after is when this one will air. And so I'm going, the one with my girls, I usually do about, 25 minutes to half an hour which when i first started this i was thinking this was going to be like five or ten minutes long

yeah right i remember you saying that

yeah and uh no they've been like 20 25 well the one i just did with my girls and my wife was 58 minutes so um yeah uh this i so i gave him these this idea that I was going to make 20, 25 minutes. He's like, it's going to be probably about 90. So that's

right.

So this could be split into like three or four parts. This could be the new, uh, pastor Tim series. So, uh, but yeah, can you just tell us a little bit about who you are and how you came here and, uh,

yeah. So after, um, uh, I graduated from seminary, I went and planted a church in my hometown. I was there 18 years, really had a, a phenomenal experience. Lord blessed. And really felt like my heart was bending around this concept of planting campuses, planting churches. And we did some of that as a church, but never really to the scale that my heart wanted. And so there was this longing, I think, that had been there for many, many years while I was at the church I planted. And another church, which was only about an hour and a half away, called and they were seeking a senior pastor. And I knew they had some bandwidth to do this kind of thing. And so I said, yeah, you know, I'll consider coming only if I have opportunities to plant churches and plant camps. So I did that. We were there seven years, a very difficult time. It was just a struggle on multiple levels. That in itself could be a podcast, so we won't spend a lot of time there. But we ended our time there and moved here to Florida. Michelle, my wife, has family here. And of course, Corey Abney, who is the lead pastor at Bell Shoals, the church that we both attend, a good friend of mine for many years, was there. We felt like this would be a great place to land, maybe to recover a little bit from our experience. You know, just a few months in, Corey started talking, you know, planting campuses. And we were together on many occasions and picking each other's brains. And of course, he knew, he's about 10 years, 11 years younger than me. And so he knew I'm a little further down the road on some of this. And so we talked quite a bit about it. Well, lo and behold, your previous pastor at the campus we're at now felt called to go someplace else. And so Pastor Corey said, hey, you know, you want to drop into this spot I know you're looking for maybe what the Lord's doing next. You could just at least be in the game while you're looking. And lo and behold, fell in love with you guys and found that this little campus really had grabbed my heart. And now, as you know, which perhaps your audience doesn't fully know, we're engaged in relaunching that campus a little further south of where its original location was And you're now part of the core team. So that's my story of how I got here.

So talk to me, because when I first approached you about being on the podcast, you're like, if you do anything, if you ever talk about Isaac Watts, I'm there. Right. And so I was like, Oh, we're doing, when I surveyed the wonder's cross, I'm like, I've got to bring him in. Uh, what is your fascination with Isaac Watts?

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I didn't even know it until I started studying and preparing a little deeper for this podcast, what it was that attracted me to Isaac Watts. And, um, I've learned, and you and I have talked a little bit about it, that in the age that he was writing and ministering, he was in what was called in England the nonconformist church, which has become the congregational church. But in other words, it was not the Church of England. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That concept of being a nonconformist, I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but that kind of struck me. And maybe that explains why much of his hymnody speaks to me, because it speaks of the heart. It speaks of a living relationship with Jesus Christ. And up to that point, as you know, the The Reformation had such an impact, especially the Calvinistic bent of the Reformation, that hymnody was more metric in its design and really came predominantly out of the Old Testament. Well, Watts flips that.

Yeah.

And he makes it really an expression of all that we've learned out of the New Testament. And it's this joy and praise. So I can go on and on about the different hymns of Isaac Watts that really strike me.

Oh, I mean, thousands. And the one thing I love about Isaac Watts, and you touched on it, is the whole nonconformist. But the one thing I love, he didn't just write hymns. He also... took hymns that were being sung in church and changed them. Which infuriated people. Which reminds me so much about... today's church sometimes when somebody comes along with a new version of an old hymn yeah and people go crazy like you destroying the hymn people did the same thing to isaac watts

that's right 300 years ago these are the same complaints in fact um i have a quote that uh i i think sets the at least in my mind, who Isaac Watts really is, he was complaining about him singing in the church. And he writes, quote, might even tempt a charitable observer to suspect the fervency of their inward religion. End quote. So, you know, he was saying, I look out in the congregation and I see all these dull faces. And so what does he do? You know, he flips the script a little bit and he writes these hymns that come alive. But what... people don't realize is that some of these were the same hymns set to different tunes that they had been singing. Yeah. When they found that out, boy, they let him have it.

Exactly. Like, I mean, to the point, uh, there, there were people, uh, calling him Satan. They hated him for doing this. And it really reminds me, and I think you even mentioned this, when you first came on board, you were just the transitional pastor. You're talking about how much you love it when people come up to you and tell you, we've always done it like this. It brings to mind that idea that Isaac Watts has... This is 300 years ago. So it's not like they're over there going... We can't even get this concept because we speak very candidly. But back in 1700s, they were much more proper in how they spoke. I'm wondering what happens when... How does somebody properly call you satanic?

Yeah,

exactly. Like... you doth come from Satan. But, but they, I mean, they were that angry with him for, for not doing it the way it's always been done. Exactly. And he said, Oh, well, I'm, I'm going to do this because people, people need this. People need this theology, this depth and, And I want to be able to share it with my friends. I want to be able to share it with people my age and continue this work of these beautiful and sometimes difficult to preach, but much more easy to sing. And I'll tell you, music gets into the heart of people. And if you can take deep theology and doctrine and you can put it to music to where people love it and listen to it over and over again, it gets into you. You may not want to hear it preached every Sunday, or you may not want to like hear like these deep, deep, like, Oh my goodness, the pastor's preaching these deep theological things and making you think, but yet you're singing them and you, and it's getting into your, it's getting into your heart and you, And you don't even realize it with these hymns. And that's what Isaac Watts, I think, was doing.

Yeah.

And I love it.

I agree. I agree. You know, back to what you were saying about how they were criticizing Watts. One critic wrote this publicly about him. Christian congregations have shut out divinely inspired psalms and taken in Watts' flights of fancy.

Yeah.

Later he called them Watts's whims. But yet you're right. They were these deep theological truths coming out of the Reformation, which was inspiring incredible pulpiteers at the time. And he was taking those same depth of theological concepts

and

building them into our hymns. And we sing them. Many times not even realizing that. the backstory in these hymns. Another thing I thought was interesting in just some of my studies about Watts is that many people felt, and they write about his outward appearance, that he was not only homely in many ways, but one writer said that he had a very small body and a very large head. Like, I'm afraid what they're going to write about me is, If anyone would ever write. I mean, it was like, what in the world? I mean, poor Isaac Watts. But what struck me was that he struggled with things like depression. Oh, yeah. He struggled with psychiatric type problems. To the point where he needed assistance in his own pastorate multiple times through multiple years, and thank the Lord he was with a congregation that loved him and loved him through his life in many of these difficulties. But that's the story that many of us don't know. We have our own issues. We have our own issues that we deal with hard enough. heartaches, hard times, things that we struggle with. Here's a man that we revere with his hymnody, and we wonder, where did he get this ability? You have to wonder, did it come out of his pain, which drew him close to Jesus? You have to think, these are the things of life that actually the Lord uses, and we see it here. all these years later as we continue to sing his songs.

And you don't think about that. You don't think about this man who was a very frail man, but yet in our heads, we think of him as this giant hero of the faith. And yet you read this and go, Wow, he's just like us. Yeah, just like us. He's just like us. Yeah.

He just loved God. Talking contemporaries, you know, Whitefield would have been his contemporary. Yeah. Of course, by that time, I think Whitefield was probably with Edwards here in America. But you think of, you know, the heroes of his time would have been these, you know, larger than life people. Oh, yeah. And here he is today. sometimes too sick to even get out of bed, and he's writing these hymns that outlive him. I mean, how many of us know sermons that were 300, 350 years old? We don't. We just know of the men. But the words of Isaac Watts are still alive today in our churches.

As a matter of fact, this song, this song has been put to numerous tunes. Which I love. I love the fact that Isaac Watts is known for changing the tunes of hymns, and his songs have been changed, too. And I think he would love it. I would hope so, since he did it.

Exactly.

I just have this thought that he was like, please take this and make it new. Keep making it new. I love this song. I have sung this song forever. I typically sing it more towards like... Easter, Good Friday. But I love this. This is a gospel song. Yeah. When I survey the wondrous cross on which the prince of glory died, my richest gain, I count but loss and poor contempt on all my pride. Oh, my goodness gracious. I mean, you could just stop. I mean, I could do a podcast on everything. Each line of this song and fill time. Because, I mean, it's... You just... Just that one verse, there's so much in it. You're like... What kind of mind comes up with

that? So that's the very thing I was thinking when I was reviewing this. He starts... with the key phrase, the wondrous cross. So what state was he in where he was meditating on the cross of Christ and then built the bridge to himself where he thought my richest gains, the things that I would say are the legacy of my life in the shadow of the cross, I count as loss. Yeah. And then I love that you mentioned it. I pour contempt. How do you pour contempt? I mean, what a word picture of what he's saying. I pour contempt on all my pride. I mean, what's the downfall of most of us? It's our own pride where we have this grandiose kind of concept of ourselves and what we can produce.

And I had this conversation with my girls. I've had this conversation this past week with my wife. brother about words yeah and the word pictures that these men and women wrote like i've talked about fanny crosby she was blind but gave us a picture of heaven that was amazing you know to pour content i love the idea of the contempt when something is contemptible yeah something that we hate to have the wherewithal to write That I want to pour out of me hate for the pride that is keeping me from wondering at the cross.

Exactly. Which, you know, as you, as a musician and a songwriter, singer, it's a challenge, right? Oh, yeah. It's just a challenge to you. From Isaac Watts, how can I use words? And he uses a small amount of words compared to what we sing contemporary Christianity today to convey those kind of thoughts. That's why I think hymns are grossly underutilized today in our worship, because it makes you think. I'm not at all opposed to repetitious singing. I'm not at all opposed to those songs of modernity. I don't have any problems with those kind of songs. But I do think that there is a bit of a delta when it comes to the use of hymns.

Absolutely. Our whole job as worship leaders is to paint a picture with words.

That's right.

And yet words fall so short of who God actually is and the real wonder of the cross and what God did for us. Words fall short. There's not a word picture I can think of that can really, truly grasp what God has done for us on the cross.

Agreed.

Yeah. The interesting part about this hymn that I like and that we were talking about just earlier is the fact that he only wrote three. Right. He only wrote verse one, two, and what we currently have, one, two, and four were the whole song. And you were telling me something really cool about verse three.

Yeah, verse three, which I didn't know until I read a little of his own words regarding this hymn. is that he wrote this for the celebration of the Lord's Supper. And so he wrote what is now the third stanza, and he writes that we might sing the hymn, this portion of the hymn, after we've partaken of the bread and wine. He goes on to say that he believed that this expression of the Lord's table... ought to have a distinguishable hymn that is set to what we've just experienced. So when we read the third stanza, see from his head, his hands, his feet, sorrow and love flow mingled down. Did e'er such love and sorrow meet or thorns composed so rich a crown? In Watts's mind, we should sing that. after we've partaken of the bread and then of the cup.

Which I'm good with. From now on, every time we do the Lord's Supper, I have no problem singing

that. I think it would be fun, actually, Andy, for us to, when we're crafting the use of the Lord's Supper in a service, that we sing the first two. Oh, yeah. Talk about the importance of the third, practice communion, then sing... Three and four. Yeah. I mean, I think that's what, then we would be actually stepping into Isaac Watts's shoes per se. Absolutely. And doing exactly what he intended or not. And you have to wonder, did he do that? Which I imagine he did with his own congregation.

Yeah. Again, it goes to words, sorrow and love flow mingled down. Yeah. The idea of the sorrow and that Jesus is, is the man of sorrows and, That he took our grief and our pain and our sin and he bore it for us. The absolute pain and anguish of that met with the fact that he did it because he loved us so much. And the idea of his blood flowing and the sorrow and love that flow mingled. That that's what it just, again, who writes like

this? Well, you know what? I think when I was going through some of the, and you can only go through a few. I mean, if you would have given me several weeks, I might've been able to build up a little more of this, but just the number of hymns from Isaac Watts that I was able to go through, the majority, I would say, from what I just handpicked, have something to do with suffering.

Yeah.

And clearly pointed towards the suffering of Christ. Well, why does a man write about the suffering of Christ? As we walk through life, as we walk through suffering in our own individual lives, there is a sense of connection to Christ, especially as you're reading the Gospels and you're starting to see that he's moving towards his own time of suffering. And then kind of the realization that he didn't have to go through this. He did not have to suffer. He did this willingly. And I think that's what Watts captures. Yes. Yeah. Is that this, this mingling down of blood, which was from the piercing of the thorn crown contained the love of Christ. Yeah. And he captures it in this metric of very few words. And it's all, I mean, all this is wrapped into him, into Jesus, into his own relationship, the salvific relationship he has with Christ. And I think that comes from the joy of figuring this out with him.

And he puts that into perspective for us. Because we are called to join Christ in this. We are called to crucify ourselves.

Yeah, that's right.

And we... We always think, you know, hey, Jesus, thank you. That's right. Thanks for the cross, Jesus. I'm going to keep on going and doing my own thing. Right. No, we're called to join him in this. We're called to crucify ourselves, to leave our body that is broken by sin and by shame and by guilt and nail that to the cross. Right. be made new through who

Christ is. Yeah, that's exactly right. And he wraps that up in four. And he writes, I mean, that's exactly

it. Exactly. I, first of all, I love, I love how him writers do this. They take a verse and, or a song, and they break it into, and it's a story that's unfolding. It's just like scripture. Scripture is the story of God, the story of creation, fall, redemption, and restoration over and over and over and over again, until you get to Christ, who is the ultimate of that story, creation, fall, redemption through what he did, and how he then restores us to that right relationship.

Yeah, that's right. And maybe I'm going off the reservation here for you, Andy, Yeah, go ahead. But if you think about even modern songs that we listen to, the kind of we attach our heart to, it's always the songs of story. Absolutely. Whether that be something that comes out of country music that has some story to it, or folk, or even rock, or whatever. The songs that have story attached to it have a tendency to draw us in. Absolutely. And what we might not realize, because it takes a careful, critical, thoughtful mind to go through the hymn, is that our hymns are stories. You go on and on. One of my favorite, Isaac Watts, I'm going to deviate just a little bit, when he speaks of being a soldier. And I think you've heard me talk about this in messages. Am I a soldier of the cross, a follower of the lamb? Shall I fear to own his cause or blush to speak his name? Must I be carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease while others fought to win the prize and sail through bloody seas? I mean, what's he doing? He's creating this story. Well, you come back to the wondrous cross. And what is that? That's a story from beginning to end. Yep. And he concludes, I love this. He says, we're the whole realm of nature, mine, that were a present far too small. Love so amazing, so divine, demands my soul, my life, my all.

I love that if I owned everything, if the universe were mine. It's too small. It's too small. Yeah. Yeah. Which, which should, which should show us how big God

is

and how awesome and amazing God is that even if I had the entire universe to give to him as a gift, if it were mine, it's too small to say, thank you to say you have saved me. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and I love how it ends. I love that it's not just, oh, you should– now that I know this, I should love Jesus. No, it demands my soul. It demands my life. It demands my all. It's not something I can stop. It's not like if I really, truly look at the cross and see it for what it is and see my life and allow the cross to loom large in my life– there is nothing but my life that I can give.

It demands a response.

It demands a response. It's not, it's not like, Hmm, maybe I can do that. No, it's saying if it's, if, if, if you truly look at it, it demands a response. And so, well, thank you. My pleasure. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for being here. I, I hope you had fun. Oh,

of course. Always when I'm

with you. You had mentioned if I had given you extra time. If I had given you extra time, this thing could go on for two or three hours. So I think next time I'm going to tell you 24 hours before. Just give you no time at all. No, I'm just kidding. It is awesome. Getting to talk to you is always fun. I look forward to Sunday mornings where I can get to talk to you and say hi and see what amazing... things God is talking to you about and what you're going to be teaching us. And so it has been a pleasure knowing you these six months or 16 years

or whatever it is that it feels like I've known you. Well, it's a joy, Andy. And I think, you know, if your listeners would see our text threads and the crazy gifts that we, you know, send back and forth, it would look like we've had a much longer relationship. But I just hope that that's the good foundation that the Lord has for us for the for many, many, many years to come.

Awesome. Well, thank you again and have a great week.

Thank you.

That was fun. It was insightful. And we had such a great time getting to talk about all things Isaac Watts. And I hope you all enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed doing it. Thank you again, Pastor Tim, for coming out and sitting down with me. It was truly an honor. As we normally do here on The Bright Forever, we either read the hymn, sing the hymn, or sometimes both. So here is a version of this hymn with a little different tune in honor of Isaac Watts' nonconformity. I first heard it sung like this by, I think it was Catherine Scott and a handful of other artists. So I hope you enjoy it as well. This is When I Survey the Wondrous Cross. Which the Prince of Glory died My richest gain I count but loss And poor contempt On all my

pride

Forbidden Lord That I should boast Save in the My God All the vain things That charm me most I sacrifice Them to His blood See from his head, his hands, his feet, sorrow and love flow mingled down. Did e'er such love Sorrow

me

Or thorns compose So rich a crown

Were the whole realm

Of nature mine My soul, my life, my all Love so amazing, so Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Thank you for continuing this journey with me. Please subscribe to this podcast either through Apple Podcasts or Spotify, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, Stitcher, all of the major podcasting platforms. You can also find us at www.thebrightforever.com. Please share us on any social media that you have. Like I said last week, I am not good with social media, but I am trying to do better. I need your help for this podcast to go out and to be heard by more and more people. I need your help to share it. If you have a chance to post something or to tweet something, to send out an Instagram or a TikTok or any of the social media platforms, whatever it is they're called that you do, tweeting or all that stuff, I'm so bad at it. We would love it if you shared to the world about what we're doing here at The Bright Forever. Also, again, let us know what you think. Send your comments to podcast at thebrightforever.com. Again, that's podcast at thebrightforever.com. Or you can go to our website and fill out a message form in the contact us section. Again, thank you for joining me. Thank you for listening. Let me close out with this prayer. Father, thank you so much for who you are. God, thank you for the cross of Jesus Christ. That God, we can listen to a hymn like when I survey the wondrous cross and just stand in awe of who you are. that God, even if every single thing in this universe were ours and we were giving it back to you as a gift, it would not be enough. You'd be a gift far too small for the amazing love that you have shown us. The agony of the cross, yet the beauty of what you did for us. God, we love you. We praise you. God, remind us that a love that is this amazing demands our soul, our life, and our all. We love you. We praise you. We give you this week. God, move in our hearts. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. Again, thank you so much for listening. Have a great week and I'll see you back here next week. We're out.

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