In this episode of Kingdom Building Conversations, we sit down with Boston-born rapper, musician, and content creator, Caleb McCoy. Caleb shares his journey from growing up in a worship-leading family to finding his identity in rap, leaving the streets, and creating music that glorifies God. Caleb discusses his latest album 'Duality,' its rich themes of mental, emotional, and spiritual health, and his efforts to engage at-risk youth through hip hop workshops. Join us for an inspiring conversation about faith, creativity, and living a balanced life.
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[00:00:00] What's up y'all? Today we've got a talented brother that just dropped a CD. We're gonna talk- I said a CD while I'm aging myself. Just dropped a new album that we're gonna talk about. Caleb McCoy is a Boston-born rapper, musician, and content creator. We're gonna come back to that, the three. Deeply rooted in his community. His platform, The Oak, one of a kind, reflects his commitment to delivering music and messages that are deeply rooted, unique, and prolific. Caleb's musical journey is inspired by his family.
[00:00:30] With both his parents being worship leaders and gifted songwriters. Bet you didn't know that. Beyond his role as a recording artist, Caleb serves as a worship director at his local church, a youth worker engaging with justice-involved teams, and a content director for a faith-based nonprofit. Through these roles, he inspires individuals to embrace their full selves and live into their God-given identity. His latest album, Duality, is now available. Cue that mug up now. Go to Spotify, cue that. This album's a therapy session.
[00:01:00] We're gonna talk about that. It's available on all platforms. Welcome, y'all. Bip, bip, bip. Caleb McCoy.
[00:01:05] Glad to be here. Glad you came, brother. Thanks for coming down from Boston. You know what I mean? Yes.
[00:01:10] Continuing with the- I was gonna say bringing the cold weather with you, but listen, it was already cold here.
[00:01:14] Yeah, it's colder in Boston. It's colder in Boston? Yeah, yeah. Really? Okay. It's probably in the 20s, 20s and 30s.
[00:01:18] It was in the 20s this morning, and so, you know, a little frost on the car.
[00:01:22] Mm-hmm.
[00:01:23] I personally enjoy four-season areas. I know some people struggle with thinking about dealing with the cold, but I like the four seasons.
[00:01:31] Yeah, yeah, as long as I can get away. Yeah.
[00:01:33] As long as I can go somewhere where it's hot whenever I can.
[00:01:35] Nah, I feel like I was on the phone yesterday. One of my friends, and he was talking, and we were talking about all of us getting together.
[00:01:41] He's like, man, I guess I have to go to the attic and figure out where my coat is, because, you know, he lives in Cali.
[00:01:46] Right. So he hasn't seen his coat in a while.
[00:01:49] Exactly, and it can't just be a Cali coat. It can't, and that needs to be a winter coat.
[00:01:52] A real coat.
[00:01:52] Exactly.
[00:01:53] A real coat. So let's do this, man. What's one thing even those closest to Caleb don't know about you that you can share?
[00:02:02] Like, even people who've been with you for a minute, even, you know, your closest.
[00:02:06] Oh, man.
[00:02:06] What's one thing you can share that they would say, wow, I didn't know that about Caleb?
[00:02:10] Oh, wow, that's a tough one. One thing that they can share, I really love to play.
[00:02:16] Ping pong and foosball.
[00:02:18] Foosball?
[00:02:18] Yeah.
[00:02:19] Man, I haven't seen a foosball table in a minute.
[00:02:20] I know, I know. Let me know.
[00:02:22] When's the last time you've seen one?
[00:02:24] Probably at a Christian camp somewhere.
[00:02:26] Yeah, I haven't seen a foosball table.
[00:02:28] Yeah, so if somebody want to get watched in foosball or ping pong, you know.
[00:02:32] I'm inspired.
[00:02:33] Hey.
[00:02:34] Hey, Max, Mad Max, our operations manager, I think we need to add a foosball table.
[00:02:38] I love it.
[00:02:39] To the building.
[00:02:40] Yeah.
[00:02:40] I don't know, Max, I don't know if you play foosball, but Max beats me and everything else,
[00:02:44] so it'll probably just be another one for his collection, so it's all good.
[00:02:48] So, man, this album, Duality, I want to spend time talking about it and what you intend to
[00:02:54] do with it, but before we get there, man, maybe just unpack for people a little bit of the
[00:02:58] journey that's brought you to this moment.
[00:03:00] Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[00:03:01] So, I mean, you know, appreciate y'all having me, too.
[00:03:04] I'm just super excited, and I feel like this is an important moment in the culture.
[00:03:09] So, I was born and raised in Boston, born and raised in Dorchester, which is an inner-city
[00:03:14] borough in Boston, and, you know, worship-leading parents, grew up in the church, and like many
[00:03:22] young men in the church, as soon as I hit up A's and not go to church, that's exactly what
[00:03:26] I did.
[00:03:26] Mm-hmm.
[00:03:27] And so, tried to find my identity in the neighborhood and women and partying and the
[00:03:32] streets and all of that, and kind of came around full circle to try to find Christ for
[00:03:37] myself, and at the same time was rapping with a group of guys and around the neighborhood,
[00:03:44] and, you know, when you're rapping in the inner city with a group of guys, it's almost
[00:03:49] like the lines are blurred between if you're a gang or if you're just a rap group trying
[00:03:52] to survive, and then when actually gang-type stuff started happening for a while, I'm
[00:04:00] like, all right, God, do I really want this for my life?
[00:04:02] My friends are getting locked up.
[00:04:03] Mm-hmm.
[00:04:03] You know, we're dodging bullets and, you know, kicked out the house, and, you know, do I really
[00:04:08] want all this for my life?
[00:04:09] Right.
[00:04:10] And so, I was like, God, I know I have a gift.
[00:04:13] I know I have a hip-hop gift, but I don't want to glorify destruction anymore on one hand,
[00:04:20] but on the other hand, I don't really know.
[00:04:23] I wasn't, I didn't grow up on Christian hip-hop, so I didn't really know a context that met
[00:04:28] me where I was at.
[00:04:29] Right.
[00:04:29] That felt like it could be God-glorifying.
[00:04:31] So, I'm like, God, unless you give me an imagination for something that's not corny.
[00:04:35] Right.
[00:04:35] And something that feels authentic, please just take this gift away from me.
[00:04:38] Mm-hmm.
[00:04:39] And so, that was, you know, God-
[00:04:41] That was your prayer.
[00:04:41] That was a prayer.
[00:04:42] Yeah.
[00:04:42] You know, it was kind of a, yeah, it was like a conversation throughout the years that God and
[00:04:48] I had, and so for years, I didn't do hip-hop anymore.
[00:04:51] My group, secular group, we were blowing up in Boston.
[00:04:54] Yeah.
[00:04:55] And so, we kind of quit that, and years later, I feel like God honored that prayer and inspired
[00:05:01] me with something that I felt like represented who I was.
[00:05:04] Right.
[00:05:04] And what I had been through, and what I identified with.
[00:05:07] Mm-hmm.
[00:05:07] But also, was glorify Him and be proud, and I could make my mother and father proud, and
[00:05:12] build my neighborhood up.
[00:05:13] And so, that's how I kind of came to doing music and doing Christian hip-hop, doing music
[00:05:18] I call the Oak, the one-of-a-kind.
[00:05:20] Yes.
[00:05:20] Being deep-rooted, unique, and prolific.
[00:05:22] And so, that's kind of how I got to producing and getting into the Christian hip-hop space.
[00:05:29] What led you back to the Lord after the partying?
[00:05:31] I was contracted as a drummer for a while at a church, at a local church, just trying to
[00:05:38] get a paycheck, really, because I grew up playing the drums.
[00:05:42] Mm-hmm.
[00:05:42] And so, I was contracted as a drummer.
[00:05:44] Did you go begrudgingly?
[00:05:45] Did you take the job begrudgingly?
[00:05:47] Well, not really, because it was paying $100 a week, so.
[00:05:51] At that time, it was.
[00:05:52] At that time, you know, 10 years ago, before eggs were $8, that was pretty good.
[00:05:58] So, and, but, you know, there was many days where I came there hungover, and, you know,
[00:06:04] still smell like last night's shame and whatnot, and so, but I feel like in that way, the word
[00:06:11] was preached in a way that really landed with me.
[00:06:14] I really started to see myself in the kingdom instead of just my parents or instead of just
[00:06:19] rule following.
[00:06:20] Yeah.
[00:06:21] Like, I actually want to be a kingdom citizen.
[00:06:23] And so, that led me back to church and then led me back to the Lord.
[00:06:29] And then, as the Holy Spirit does, just passions and desires and gifts that were dormant started
[00:06:36] to rise up in me.
[00:06:38] That's good.
[00:06:38] And so, okay, so during that time, you rededicated your life to the Lord, and then as you were
[00:06:44] starting to rap, you said, you were praying about, man, if I can't use this gift for you,
[00:06:49] take the gift away.
[00:06:50] Well, actually, I had prayed that prayer before I started coming back to the Lord.
[00:06:53] Got it.
[00:06:54] I was still kind of out there.
[00:06:55] Yeah.
[00:06:55] I was convicted before I really came back to the Lord.
[00:06:58] I was convicted about, all right, I still want to party and kind of dabble, but I don't
[00:07:02] want to rap about, like, guns and stuff that's going to get my friends locked up.
[00:07:05] What do you think made you feel conviction?
[00:07:09] Honestly, at that level, it was just the raw, like, just the streets and the bad stuff
[00:07:13] that was happening.
[00:07:14] Got it.
[00:07:14] You know, like, my friend got, one of my best friends got stabbed a bunch of times
[00:07:18] in the fight that I got in.
[00:07:20] Mm-hmm.
[00:07:20] And, you know, my brother caught a gun charge and just, it's just stuff is, like, it's
[00:07:25] the reality of it.
[00:07:26] The real stuff is happening.
[00:07:27] Yeah, the reality of it.
[00:07:27] It wasn't, I don't want to fake like I was noble.
[00:07:31] Right.
[00:07:31] Like, I was like, I don't want to die.
[00:07:33] Yeah.
[00:07:34] Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:34] I don't want my friends to die.
[00:07:35] I don't want to be locked up.
[00:07:37] Yeah.
[00:07:37] So, it was more, honestly, more just like, I don't think this is the right thing to
[00:07:40] glorify because I'm witnessing it in front of my eyes.
[00:07:43] It wasn't like I was hearing it.
[00:07:44] Gotcha.
[00:07:45] Yeah.
[00:07:45] How did this journey shape your music and bringing forth a project like Duality?
[00:07:50] Yeah, yeah.
[00:07:51] Because, you know, I feel like, you know, as believers, as folks that we should seek wisdom,
[00:07:57] we have to embrace our full story.
[00:07:59] Mm-hmm.
[00:08:00] And because our full stories are always with us.
[00:08:03] You know, whether it's an area that we've conquered or we're in recovery or it's an area
[00:08:09] that we're still in the struggle, our full stories are always with us.
[00:08:12] And so, I think, you know, as believers, the concept of duality is everywhere, right?
[00:08:18] It's the fact that all of us have a sinful past.
[00:08:23] And while we are fighting against that, we need to learn our triggers.
[00:08:28] We need to learn our past.
[00:08:29] We need to learn our traumas in order to fight better against that.
[00:08:32] Right.
[00:08:32] And we have to kind of like, we have to combine that with our future, with our sanctified future.
[00:08:40] Right.
[00:08:40] But, you know, you don't just get saved in your past.
[00:08:43] Yeah, it gets forgiven, but it's not forgotten as in like, I still got the same triggers.
[00:08:49] I still have similar temptations that I got to be aware of.
[00:08:52] Absolutely.
[00:08:53] And so, I think that the journey of like seeing the different aspects of my life, whether it
[00:08:59] be faith and doubt, whether it be, you know, sinfulness and grace, whether it be just the
[00:09:04] different cultures, right?
[00:09:05] I went to private school, but I grew up in the hood.
[00:09:08] You know, I'm part of a biracial family.
[00:09:10] All those dualities.
[00:09:11] Right.
[00:09:11] Mixed into who I am.
[00:09:14] And I think one of the goals for this project is people not to be ashamed of their full story.
[00:09:18] Yeah.
[00:09:19] That's good.
[00:09:20] So, that's where I've seen utility of this project.
[00:09:24] That's good.
[00:09:24] You know, it's, we're more of a singles culture, I think.
[00:09:31] Both in how we as consumers listen nowadays, right?
[00:09:37] Yeah.
[00:09:37] At first I thought you were talking about marriage.
[00:09:38] Oh, no.
[00:09:39] Well, yeah, probably.
[00:09:40] Maybe that too.
[00:09:41] I get you.
[00:09:42] I'm tracking.
[00:09:42] I'm tracking.
[00:09:42] I'm tracking.
[00:09:43] But that too.
[00:09:45] And I think it's propelled artists to be single focused as well.
[00:09:49] And the algorithm favors singles.
[00:09:51] It really does.
[00:09:52] Right.
[00:09:52] And now it's just favors 30 seconds.
[00:09:55] Barely singles anymore.
[00:09:56] Single every four to six weeks.
[00:09:58] Right.
[00:09:58] Make it short.
[00:09:59] Less than two minutes.
[00:10:01] And then make 10 pieces of 30 second content.
[00:10:03] Yes.
[00:10:03] All of that.
[00:10:04] Yeah.
[00:10:04] All that.
[00:10:05] And so, as you moved into the phase of working on the album, what pushed you into doing that?
[00:10:12] Knowing everything you know about how the industry is operating right now.
[00:10:16] You know, I feel like a little bit of it was an act of resistance.
[00:10:18] You know, 16 tracks is not what you typically find on projects anymore.
[00:10:24] Yeah, exactly.
[00:10:25] Yeah.
[00:10:26] And I feel like, you know, I still want to respect bodies of work.
[00:10:30] I like to create bodies of work.
[00:10:32] Right.
[00:10:32] And I think that hip hop is such a powerful medium.
[00:10:36] And there's so many talented, gifted, wise artists out there.
[00:10:41] Right.
[00:10:41] And I'd like, you know, I'd like to think I'm one of them.
[00:10:44] And so, I wanted to do a body of work.
[00:10:47] Right.
[00:10:47] I wanted to do something that felt like a body of work.
[00:10:49] That felt like a journey.
[00:10:51] That told a story.
[00:10:52] That had a theme.
[00:10:53] Um, and it was a little bit of a, like, part of me was like, oh, is it really worth it?
[00:10:57] Will anybody care?
[00:10:58] Will anybody listen?
[00:10:58] And then the other part of me was like, you know what?
[00:11:00] I feel like this is what God has birthed in my heart.
[00:11:02] This is what God has breathed through me.
[00:11:04] And so, yeah, I do feel like part of it was an act of resistance.
[00:11:08] Yeah.
[00:11:08] There's probably some people that won't listen to all 16, but this is, this was my resistance.
[00:11:11] This was my, uh, I think the culture's move.
[00:11:14] I love the culture, but also, and not just hip hop culture, but we're moving so fast.
[00:11:18] We're moving so fast.
[00:11:20] Our dopamine receptors are all out of whack.
[00:11:22] Right.
[00:11:23] I wanted to do a body of work that you could slow down and digest.
[00:11:26] Yeah, that's good.
[00:11:27] But the, the, the various vocations you operate in, it felt like they all came together in the album.
[00:11:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:11:37] Was that intentional or did it just, just happen that way?
[00:11:39] For sure, for sure.
[00:11:41] One of the, you know, I feel like one of my words before duality, it was like integrated.
[00:11:46] It's like, I want to live an integrated life.
[00:11:48] I want to live a life that, that I feel fully me, uh, and who God is bringing me toward all the time.
[00:11:55] And so, um, I, I, like you, I was in corporate for a while and I did not feel integrated.
[00:12:00] Uh, not, you know, we need Christian people in corporate, but that wasn't me.
[00:12:04] Um, and so, uh, yeah, I wanted to bring all of my gifts, whether it be content, whether it be ministry, whether it be mentorship or mentee ship.
[00:12:13] But, you know, I wanted to bring everything into this project.
[00:12:16] Yeah.
[00:12:16] You know, I've, I've, uh, said this to people before, listen, you know, please listen to the project from start to end.
[00:12:22] So I probably, to some, maybe cried wolf because I've said it so many times, but I believe it's true depending on how albums constructed.
[00:12:30] Some albums are a collection of singles and then, you know, then published as an album.
[00:12:34] But some albums are being narrated.
[00:12:38] You know, I just had the saga on here and his was the same way.
[00:12:41] Yours is the same way, obviously with, with your life, live life experiences and vocation and whatnot.
[00:12:46] And from the intro to the outro, I felt like there was a level of intentionality and focus on drilling some points home.
[00:12:56] And tell me if I'm off, but, but one, to me, one of the things you did, um, was really hit the drum hard on the need for mental health.
[00:13:05] Yeah.
[00:13:05] Right.
[00:13:06] And even a song was at men tell health, right?
[00:13:10] Yes.
[00:13:11] Uh, beating that drum.
[00:13:12] What, what drove that level of focus on that topic?
[00:13:16] Yeah.
[00:13:16] Well, you know, I feel like as, as believe, especially as believers, uh, we cannot neglect emotional and mental health.
[00:13:26] We can do so much damage to ourselves, our witness, our relationships.
[00:13:30] And I've, and, and my life, I've, I feel like I just praise God for, I feel like there's been a level of abundance that's been unlocked in my life as I've invested in my mental and emotional health,
[00:13:41] as I've, uh, cared for others, mental and emotional health.
[00:13:46] It's, you know, I'm a newlywed, it's wielded, uh, fruit in my marriage.
[00:13:49] And congrats.
[00:13:50] Thank you.
[00:13:50] Thank you.
[00:13:51] One year coming up next month.
[00:13:52] Yes.
[00:13:52] Yes.
[00:13:53] Congrats.
[00:13:53] And so I, I, I just, I feel like I can't undersell as it's a big part of our spiritual walk of how, because, because we see God cares about relationships.
[00:14:05] He cares about relationships.
[00:14:07] Absolutely.
[00:14:07] And, and it's hard to develop healthy relationships if you're emotionally unhealthy.
[00:14:12] Right.
[00:14:13] Whether that be marriage or friendships or work relationships, if you were an emotionally unhealthy
[00:14:17] person, your depth of relationships, it suffers.
[00:14:20] And especially we saw this in COVID, the epidemic of loneliness and, and people not having friends.
[00:14:27] And, and, and people not having intimacy.
[00:14:29] Uh, you know, I don't want to blame people, but a lot of that is our inability to be emotionally
[00:14:34] healthy and create that space.
[00:14:36] That's good.
[00:14:36] Especially for men.
[00:14:37] I think women can be a little bit more courageous and sharing their feelings and developing that.
[00:14:42] And not, not that, you know, everybody can struggle with that, but I think especially for
[00:14:46] men.
[00:14:47] Well, particularly, I mean, particularly for black men.
[00:14:49] I mean, most of us grew up under the instruction of, you know, be hard.
[00:14:54] Yeah.
[00:14:55] Have resilience.
[00:14:56] Yeah.
[00:14:56] Yeah.
[00:14:56] Come back swinging off the ropes.
[00:14:58] Exactly.
[00:14:58] And push through it.
[00:15:00] Yes.
[00:15:01] Yeah.
[00:15:01] Right.
[00:15:01] That was the message.
[00:15:02] Push.
[00:15:02] Push through it.
[00:15:03] You know, don't put your hands on your hips when you're tired.
[00:15:05] You, right.
[00:15:06] Right.
[00:15:07] Yeah.
[00:15:07] The same gym teacher I did.
[00:15:08] Yeah.
[00:15:09] Exactly.
[00:15:09] Don't be bending over, holding your knees or putting your hands on your hips.
[00:15:12] Exactly.
[00:15:12] Push through it.
[00:15:13] And so I think many of us now are at a stage where we've been able to look at it.
[00:15:19] I mean, I know I've had a therapist now for two, three years and being able to unpack it
[00:15:23] and have honest conversations about it.
[00:15:26] At the same time, I want to be clear.
[00:15:28] I don't have regrets about the grind era either.
[00:15:31] Right.
[00:15:31] Because I think without some of it, I wouldn't have.
[00:15:34] I think there needs to be.
[00:15:35] There needs to be.
[00:15:35] There's a time and place for that.
[00:15:36] But it's the balance.
[00:15:37] Yeah.
[00:15:37] Yeah.
[00:15:37] Yeah.
[00:15:37] It's like many things.
[00:15:38] The duality.
[00:15:39] The duality.
[00:15:39] Yes.
[00:15:40] The duality.
[00:15:41] And so even in one of your songs, you said, it hit me, man.
[00:15:47] When you said, one of the chorus of your songs, you said something like, they say.
[00:15:52] Doesn't kill you.
[00:15:53] What doesn't kill you make you stronger.
[00:15:55] Finish the chorus.
[00:15:56] They say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
[00:15:58] Nah.
[00:15:59] Sometimes it just brings you trauma and it's okay to heal through it.
[00:16:02] You a man, but man, you still human.
[00:16:05] Oh, when I heard that, I kept listening to it and I said, oh, that's good.
[00:16:10] That's really.
[00:16:11] Yeah.
[00:16:11] Yeah.
[00:16:11] There's a lot of thought provoking choruses and phrases.
[00:16:15] The one song where you said, when's the last time.
[00:16:20] You had a physical.
[00:16:21] You had a physical.
[00:16:21] Because that's the duality.
[00:16:23] That's the, you know, I'm sure you get into it with how the songs are in twos.
[00:16:26] Yes.
[00:16:27] And so that's the mental health and the physical.
[00:16:30] Yes.
[00:16:30] When's the last time you had a physical.
[00:16:31] When is the last time you had fresh food?
[00:16:34] Yeah.
[00:16:35] Yeah.
[00:16:35] Right.
[00:16:35] Good cook.
[00:16:36] And then even talking about the pieces of, you know, did you skip the appointment or avoid the appointment?
[00:16:42] I'm talking to myself too.
[00:16:43] Let me not.
[00:16:43] It was really good because I think, I think again, the songs are sonically appealing, but
[00:16:47] the messages make you think.
[00:16:49] And I think sometimes that's the power of music that we forget.
[00:16:52] Really?
[00:16:53] It's beyond suggestive.
[00:16:54] Sometimes it's just, it's instructive.
[00:16:56] Yeah.
[00:16:57] Yeah.
[00:16:57] Makes you think.
[00:16:57] Yeah.
[00:16:58] Yeah.
[00:16:58] Yeah.
[00:16:58] Yeah.
[00:16:59] And it's like I said, I'm talking to me too, you know, my wife and my mother often have
[00:17:03] to tell me three, four times to go to the doctor, you know?
[00:17:07] And I think again, just think, you know, I think sometimes even whether it be the church
[00:17:13] or even the streets, it's like, we just think like neglecting our health is noble.
[00:17:18] Right.
[00:17:18] It's just, you know, for me, the more I've invested, not in myself in a selfish way, but
[00:17:23] invested in my health, both mental, physical, spiritual, emotional, like the quality of
[00:17:29] my life and the quality of my relationships.
[00:17:31] And I think the quality of my witness has been more powerful.
[00:17:34] Yeah.
[00:17:34] I mean, the themes I wrote down, you know, include joy and grief.
[00:17:39] Yes.
[00:17:40] Company and solitude.
[00:17:41] Yep.
[00:17:42] Yep.
[00:17:42] Scarcity and abundance.
[00:17:44] So again, that duality, joy, grief.
[00:17:46] Yeah.
[00:17:46] Company, solitude, scarcity, abundance.
[00:17:51] Yeah.
[00:17:51] So as you were putting together the album, how did you approach it in terms of this theme
[00:17:57] and narrating this theme?
[00:17:59] How did you, how did you literally construct it?
[00:18:01] Yeah.
[00:18:01] Well, the funny thing is about almost like about a, about a 25% of the songs I already had
[00:18:07] done and released before I got the concept before the concept.
[00:18:10] So I had already recorded joy and grief.
[00:18:13] I had already recorded.
[00:18:14] I had already written scarcity.
[00:18:16] I have already, you know, so a lot of this stuff I, uh, I'd already done.
[00:18:20] And then I feel like God, God just breathed this concept like of like embracing the whole
[00:18:25] story, you know?
[00:18:26] Um, and some people can only embrace God when it's joyful.
[00:18:31] Some people only run to God when it's bad.
[00:18:33] We should be, we should be, it should be a both end.
[00:18:35] Right.
[00:18:36] That's right.
[00:18:36] Um, so anyway, I, I, I'm always like someone who's who, who, uh, in my music, I'm always
[00:18:42] thinking, what did I leave out?
[00:18:44] That's often as I write, I'm thinking like, what's the caveat that I missed?
[00:18:49] What's the nuance?
[00:18:50] Was there an outline that you were following or you just took it as a can?
[00:18:53] About halfway through.
[00:18:54] About halfway through.
[00:18:55] About halfway through.
[00:18:55] I was like, okay, I have joy and grief.
[00:18:58] I have this.
[00:18:59] I had mental health, but I didn't have physical.
[00:19:01] I'm like, now I got to write physical.
[00:19:02] Like, so I had about halfway through.
[00:19:04] So like a topical outline.
[00:19:06] You started to develop of what you want to cover.
[00:19:08] And so then I was like, all right, it's duality.
[00:19:10] So I want to make the songs in twos.
[00:19:12] Yeah.
[00:19:12] Make each two.
[00:19:14] Cause you know, the definition duality is, it could be opposites or it could just be things
[00:19:17] that appear contrasting.
[00:19:19] Got it.
[00:19:19] Um, and so that's, that was like, all right, let's do two, two, two, two.
[00:19:24] Some of the twos already had some of I didn't.
[00:19:26] Right.
[00:19:26] I was like, let's map out how these two, let's map out the themes, whether it be, like I said,
[00:19:32] scarcity or abundance.
[00:19:33] There's two tracks that focus on friendship.
[00:19:34] There's encouragement versus conviction.
[00:19:36] Right.
[00:19:36] You know.
[00:19:37] That accountability.
[00:19:38] That accountability track.
[00:19:40] Like what, what, what are you going to check on me?
[00:19:42] Yeah.
[00:19:43] Exactly.
[00:19:43] Are you going to ask me about this?
[00:19:45] Yes.
[00:19:45] Yeah.
[00:19:45] That was good.
[00:19:46] Yeah.
[00:19:46] And that's the duality of who, uh, like it's a, it's a friendship duality.
[00:19:50] So there's one track called who going to check me, which is, I feel like it's funny because
[00:19:53] sometimes we say that as more of a belligerent thing.
[00:19:56] Like who, who going to check me in this room?
[00:19:57] Right.
[00:20:07] I don't just need you to convict me.
[00:20:08] I need you to encourage me.
[00:20:09] Mm-hmm.
[00:20:10] You know, that's, that's check me out.
[00:20:11] I think as some people would say, this is a lot of grown folk talk.
[00:20:15] Hey man, I'm 40 years old, right?
[00:20:17] There's a lot of grown folk talk on this.
[00:20:19] Yeah.
[00:20:19] Yeah.
[00:20:19] Yeah.
[00:20:20] Yeah.
[00:20:20] That's, that's, that's what I was aiming for.
[00:20:22] That's good.
[00:20:23] As, as, as I think, I can't remember, was it DJ Khaled?
[00:20:25] Somebody said high level rap, you know, that's what I was aiming for.
[00:20:28] While I still, you know, I wanted to, I also want to make good music.
[00:20:33] Yeah.
[00:20:33] I want to make music that you could still vibe to.
[00:20:35] Right.
[00:20:35] That you could, that you could turn on.
[00:20:37] And I don't want to say mindlessly listen to, but you know, I want it both in, right?
[00:20:42] I want it, I want you to be able to like, if you do stop and you're like, wow.
[00:20:46] But then you could also clean and, and, you know, vibe out, dance to it.
[00:20:49] Absolutely.
[00:20:49] So I think, I think one of the things about it is it, it, you're right.
[00:20:54] You can enjoy each song, but I do, I do think there's a, a fulfillment of, I'll just say
[00:21:01] it this way, therapeutic process of going through the whole thing because you can leave
[00:21:07] a song and it's like, it's like maybe this is a bad example.
[00:21:10] It's almost like a strength overuse becomes a weakness.
[00:21:13] Yeah.
[00:21:13] So if you leave one song and say, that's the direction I must run, it's like, well, no,
[00:21:17] no, no, no, hold up.
[00:21:18] Exactly.
[00:21:19] Yeah.
[00:21:19] That's good.
[00:21:19] That's good.
[00:21:20] That's good.
[00:21:21] Yeah.
[00:21:21] Yeah.
[00:21:21] And I'm, I'm trying to make you aware.
[00:21:23] That's good.
[00:21:23] Yeah.
[00:21:24] Of both.
[00:21:24] So you can be balanced and make decisions and understand both.
[00:21:28] Yes.
[00:21:28] That's exactly.
[00:21:29] I mean, I think you hit it on the money and that's what I talk about.
[00:21:31] Like when I write, I'm always like, what did I leave out?
[00:21:34] Yeah.
[00:21:34] I don't want to write a song about mental health and somebody neglects their physical health.
[00:21:39] Right.
[00:21:39] You know, I don't want to, I don't want to write a song about, um, you know, the last song
[00:21:44] Fight Alone talks about solitude and really making those decisions, especially as a man,
[00:21:49] this is, you gotta, sometimes you gotta buckle down and make decisions.
[00:21:52] Right.
[00:21:52] Right.
[00:21:53] So this walk should be communal and we should, we, we in it together, the previous song.
[00:21:58] And so like, I wanted to people to get a holistic picture of what this walk looks like.
[00:22:02] That's good.
[00:22:02] What equipped you to do this out?
[00:22:03] Because, because it's, um, you know, I just say sometimes where you could be so heavenly
[00:22:09] minded, you're of no earthly good.
[00:22:11] Yeah.
[00:22:11] I also think this brings that together, right?
[00:22:13] This brings together scriptural basis, love of Jesus as the, as the ultimate solution,
[00:22:19] but then also these mad practical and insightful, again, live lived, life lived experiences, but
[00:22:27] also some professional insight.
[00:22:29] Yeah.
[00:22:29] So like what prepared you to do an album like this?
[00:22:32] Oh, that's, that's a good question.
[00:22:33] You know, I mean, just backing up in terms of like the practicalities, like I resonated
[00:22:37] most with the kingdom of God and the gospel of Jesus through, although I've seen, I have
[00:22:44] seen the miraculous and I believe in the miraculous and I believe that God, that I'm a miracle
[00:22:50] and God works miracles.
[00:22:51] I experienced God on like a day to day grind.
[00:22:54] That's what really brought me into the kingdom of like, there's, there's, you know, now,
[00:22:59] now again, the spirit was working in me at that time, but like the, the, the, the practicality
[00:23:05] of how God walks with us through the mundane, through the day to day, through the little
[00:23:09] stuff, through the decisions, through the wisdom that really compelled me.
[00:23:12] Right.
[00:23:12] And so that, that often shines through my music.
[00:23:14] Um, and then, you know, I think, like I said, probably for the last five, six years, I've
[00:23:19] been trying to, I just, I just have a high value ever since I was a high value for a
[00:23:25] strong, healthy relationships.
[00:23:27] And so, yeah, you know, I've been to therapy.
[00:23:29] I've, I've, I've invested in myself vocationally.
[00:23:32] Um, I've invest, I've tried to invest in, in brothers and sisters around me having important
[00:23:39] conversations.
[00:23:40] I've tried to, um, you know, my family, we've mutually, mutually invested each
[00:23:44] other.
[00:23:44] Uh, I've been to a lot of small groups and, um, try to, try to get my reading on with
[00:23:49] a lot of the other brothers and sisters that are writing about mental and emotional health.
[00:23:54] Um, so there's no like one way.
[00:23:56] It's just, it's, I think it's like, you know, a lot of what, a lot of, I think, especially
[00:24:01] in the new Testament, it's, it's not always prescriptive, but it's telling you what to value
[00:24:06] and prioritize, you know?
[00:24:08] It's like the worry, it's like, of course we're going to worry, but don't idolize and
[00:24:12] prioritize worry, you know?
[00:24:14] And so I, I, I think God put on my heart, like you, it's, it is right to value your,
[00:24:21] your, your full being, your emotional, your relational.
[00:24:26] It's it, that is right to, to prioritize that.
[00:24:29] That's part of this walk.
[00:24:30] And so with that, it wasn't one way.
[00:24:32] There's what, you know, there was therapy.
[00:24:34] There was just, it was that, but I was like, once I was like, okay, God, you're giving me
[00:24:37] permission to really prioritize.
[00:24:40] Then I saw, I really feel like I sought that and pursued that.
[00:24:42] And that's good that this project will bless a lot of people because I'm praying that
[00:24:49] it blesses a lot of people.
[00:24:50] And I believe it will, because a lot of times what we won't go into the room to hear, they're
[00:24:56] going to hear it through this project.
[00:24:57] Amen.
[00:24:57] Yeah.
[00:24:58] That's what I'm hoping.
[00:24:58] That's what I'm hoping.
[00:24:59] Amen.
[00:24:59] Amen.
[00:25:00] And I feel like even that for the, for the, you know, either, whether it be the nominal
[00:25:03] believer or the non-believer, whoever, you know, I'm doing it.
[00:25:07] I'm, I'm, I have a really dope support back in Boston and it's a diverse support.
[00:25:12] I'm doing a show in, in, in, in Boston, kind of the official release.
[00:25:17] And it's probably going to be almost half and half in terms of church folk and non-church folk.
[00:25:20] Nice.
[00:25:21] But that really resonate really, really.
[00:25:23] I'm talking more like, they're not just there to support me.
[00:25:25] They really resonate with the content.
[00:25:27] That's good.
[00:25:28] Who, who are some of the people you collaborated with and make this project come to life?
[00:25:31] Um, well, you know, one of the, one of the, I think one of the, uh, uh, biggest blessings
[00:25:37] was my brother, my little brother, who's my, my age.
[00:25:40] He's not really little anymore.
[00:25:40] Yeah.
[00:25:41] Uh, but he's, he produced, uh, several of the songs.
[00:25:43] Nice.
[00:25:44] Uh, my brother produced Fight Alone, Physical, and, um, uh, Abundance.
[00:25:49] Mm-hmm.
[00:25:49] Uh, and so it was, it was great to just, we hadn't worked on music for a while.
[00:25:53] Yeah.
[00:25:53] So this was, he has his own journey that he's going through, which you can hear on the
[00:25:56] track.
[00:25:57] Yeah.
[00:25:57] Uh, Fight Alone.
[00:25:58] But it was just really dope to collaborate.
[00:26:00] And then my father and mother sang on that last song too.
[00:26:03] And so that family dynamic was really dope.
[00:26:04] Oh, that's nice, man.
[00:26:05] Yeah.
[00:26:05] So the last, the, on the, um, the kind of vamp or chorus, the end of Fight Alone is my
[00:26:10] father.
[00:26:11] And then my mother comes in singing background.
[00:26:12] Were they supportive from the, from day one?
[00:26:14] You started doing Christian hip hop?
[00:26:15] Oh, yeah.
[00:26:15] Or did they come?
[00:26:16] Oh, yeah.
[00:26:17] From day one.
[00:26:17] Oh, absolutely.
[00:26:18] Gotcha.
[00:26:18] Cause they was.
[00:26:19] You never know about, you know, worship people who've been doing it for a minute.
[00:26:22] You never know.
[00:26:23] Yeah, my parents from, in a Christian space, especially for some, uh, for some, uh, older
[00:26:27] folks, they're pretty progressive.
[00:26:28] Yeah.
[00:26:29] They were just glad I wasn't rapping about the streets anymore.
[00:26:32] So.
[00:26:32] I know that's right.
[00:26:33] But also, uh, some, uh, a couple other producers, uh, on beat music, uh, OB.
[00:26:38] Uh, yeah.
[00:26:39] He did, uh, Scarcity, um, uh, International Show, Roy.
[00:26:44] Yeah.
[00:26:44] You know, he did several of the joints on there.
[00:26:46] Uh, and then I got, uh, Nelly, who's a, who's a local, uh, engineer producer who did a lot.
[00:26:50] So, yeah, I, you know, I had a couple of people on this.
[00:26:52] Let me tell you something.
[00:26:53] Show is one of the most slept on producers.
[00:26:56] Oh, he's.
[00:26:56] In our space.
[00:26:57] He's, uh, he's gifted.
[00:26:59] Like, he's, he's not just, he's not just like technically, he's technically gifted.
[00:27:03] Right.
[00:27:03] But also his just mind for production.
[00:27:06] Absolutely.
[00:27:06] Is, uh, yeah.
[00:27:07] Big shout out to Show.
[00:27:08] Yeah, yeah.
[00:27:08] Show and Derek.
[00:27:10] Yeah, yeah.
[00:27:10] Minor.
[00:27:11] Oh, man.
[00:27:11] Two of the most under, underrated producers.
[00:27:14] Yeah, you, you, you'd be hard pressed to find a, to find a track you don't like.
[00:27:17] Yeah.
[00:27:17] That they produce.
[00:27:18] Yeah.
[00:27:18] Were there any challenging moments in pulling together this project?
[00:27:22] 16 tracks?
[00:27:23] Yeah.
[00:27:23] Heavy theme?
[00:27:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:27:24] I mean, heavy content?
[00:27:26] Any, any challenges?
[00:27:27] You know, I feel like, you know, we were talking about this a little earlier.
[00:27:29] It's like, when, when you're, when I'm inspired, what I think when any creative is inspired with
[00:27:33] an idea, it feels really good.
[00:27:35] It's almost like a dopamine rush.
[00:27:37] It's almost like a drug.
[00:27:38] When you, when you get that inspiration, right?
[00:27:40] Right.
[00:27:40] Whether you be listening to beats, you just talking it out with your team.
[00:27:44] And then, you know, you realize what it's going to take.
[00:27:47] Right.
[00:27:48] Right.
[00:27:48] After you've blown up the budget.
[00:27:50] Yeah.
[00:27:50] After you've spent these long nights in the studio.
[00:27:53] After one of the singles didn't do as well as you, you thought it would.
[00:27:56] Right.
[00:27:57] Right.
[00:27:57] And so there's, there's that of like really seeing it through.
[00:28:01] Right.
[00:28:01] You know, I, I felt like I wanted to do 16 songs.
[00:28:04] Actually, I didn't even say that number.
[00:28:05] I just felt like I wanted to do eight themes.
[00:28:07] Right.
[00:28:07] So that meant 16 songs.
[00:28:09] Um, but there was, there was that, but then like times where what I was writing, I knew
[00:28:17] it was either for me in a, in a future or past season or it was for somebody else,
[00:28:22] but it wasn't for me right now.
[00:28:23] I wrote just grieve at a time where I wasn't necessarily grieving, but I knew it had to
[00:28:29] be written.
[00:28:29] Um, and then later I went through times and I'm sure, you know, in this life I'll go through
[00:28:34] more times where I was grieving.
[00:28:35] But in that process of creating that song, I don't, I don't, I wasn't actually in a grieving.
[00:28:41] So you had to become like, what do you call it?
[00:28:42] Character acting.
[00:28:43] You had to.
[00:28:43] Almost.
[00:28:44] And I feel like that's like, it was somewhat prophetic.
[00:28:46] It's like, all right, this is, this is God.
[00:28:48] You're telling me to write this, but I don't even really feel it right now.
[00:28:50] Right.
[00:28:50] And so I feel like that was challenging.
[00:28:53] Same thing on the, on the flip side of we writing a song like joy when I don't feel super
[00:28:57] joyful.
[00:28:58] Um, and joy, joy came out maybe the first, one of the first singles early this year.
[00:29:05] Yeah.
[00:29:05] Um, and so I think just knowing that the, that as you, as we've talked about the very specific
[00:29:13] themes and niches is like, there's not many general songs on this project.
[00:29:17] Mm.
[00:29:17] So like, if you don't feel like it.
[00:29:20] Right.
[00:29:20] At that moment, but I'm still doing it.
[00:29:23] And that was a challenge to dig deep, you know?
[00:29:25] Yeah.
[00:29:25] Um, because I mean, I like, I'm no shade of like those that just do bops.
[00:29:31] Cause I like, I like Christian bops, but for me, those are easier.
[00:29:34] Cause it's like, you just throw a bunch of Christian words and get a good melody.
[00:29:37] Right.
[00:29:37] Um, but like when I'm specifically writing a topic on X, Y, Z, and I'm not feeling that
[00:29:42] topic.
[00:29:43] Right.
[00:29:43] I really had to push through there.
[00:29:45] All right, man.
[00:29:45] I, I get it.
[00:29:46] I respect that.
[00:29:48] And you know, to, to the people who are in positions that, uh, lead other folks, particularly
[00:29:54] youth, not just youth, youth, young adults, let's just call it people who aren't in touch
[00:30:00] with their EQ yet.
[00:30:03] Yeah.
[00:30:04] Yeah.
[00:30:04] Right.
[00:30:04] Self-awareness and everything that falls under that.
[00:30:06] This is also a good album for that where, um, you know, sometimes you're trying to break
[00:30:10] through and help somebody gain some of those EQ elements.
[00:30:13] Right.
[00:30:13] Um, and it's hard, it's hard to tell a person they don't have self-awareness.
[00:30:16] Yeah, exactly.
[00:30:18] It's hard.
[00:30:19] Exactly.
[00:30:19] Right.
[00:30:19] Sometimes those are the most stubborn people.
[00:30:21] Oh, it's hard.
[00:30:21] And so playing something like this as background music and whatnot can tap into it because you're
[00:30:29] just, again, raising awareness of, do you realize you have these emotions?
[00:30:34] For sure.
[00:30:34] These feelings.
[00:30:35] I've had therapists actually reach out, uh, two black therapists over all have reached
[00:30:39] up, maybe three, have reached out saying they're going to use, uh, I know, Just
[00:30:43] Grieve and I think another song.
[00:30:44] And so it's just, I just love it.
[00:30:46] The fact that, uh, folks are really utilizing this content for the sake of healing.
[00:30:51] Now, listen, if they, if they turn it into a, a, a, a, a lesson plan or a workbook,
[00:30:58] bro, get your licensing game up.
[00:31:00] Oh, you know, sync licensing for therapy.
[00:31:02] Get your licensing game up, right?
[00:31:03] That's, that's like a new.
[00:31:04] That could be interesting.
[00:31:13] Mm-hmm.
[00:31:13] And whatnot, right?
[00:31:14] If they, they say, hey, you know, let's add a couple songs like this to make people
[00:31:18] think, you know what I mean?
[00:31:20] In their meditation time, as they end their meditation time, listen to these two songs.
[00:31:23] Yeah.
[00:31:23] I feel like mental health and just grieve could, uh, could, could actually span that.
[00:31:28] That's interesting.
[00:31:29] That's it.
[00:31:29] So talk about this work you're doing in, uh, Boston with the juvenile justice system.
[00:31:33] Yeah.
[00:31:34] Yeah.
[00:31:34] So I'm, I'm, um, blessed to work with an organization, uh, called Straight Ahead Ministries
[00:31:39] and they, they, um, work with justice involved youth in the, in the Massachusetts area.
[00:31:43] Um, and they have partners all, all across the, uh, all across the U S but, uh, specifically
[00:31:48] I've been, I, uh, started a program called Metro Music or we partnered to start this program.
[00:31:55] Um, and it started out with me just doing hip hop workshops where I would go in, uh, I'd
[00:32:00] share a little bit of my music and I'd educate about, uh, hip hop culture.
[00:32:06] Uh, I'd educate about the industry and some of like the, the myths of the industry that
[00:32:12] I think a lot of young black and brown men are, are often sold these myths of the industry
[00:32:18] and also about the values under hip hop culture and, and trying to, you know, for me, not
[00:32:25] just incarcerated youth, but youth are hard to kind of really engage on a deeper level.
[00:32:30] But hip hop sometimes can open that up to talk about what they value and what they don't.
[00:32:36] And so we just started, I started to do workshops that would open, kind of open their minds and,
[00:32:41] and, um, had some pretty good engagement there.
[00:32:43] Uh, and then, uh, over the past year and a half, I've actually worked with them to make music.
[00:32:49] I bring in my studio.
[00:32:51] I bring in, uh, was it sure?
[00:32:53] SM seven.
[00:32:54] I bring in my sure.
[00:32:55] Uh, so I bring in my, my mic, my, my interface, my computer.
[00:32:59] And I bring in my little studio and I actually go in lockup.
[00:33:03] And, um, and it's a dope time for several reasons, because one, like I said, when, when
[00:33:08] you're writing, you actually get into what you value.
[00:33:11] And so, you know, most of them, their default is to talk about drilling and shooting and,
[00:33:16] um, and the facility that I go into is one of the, I think one, if not the only facility
[00:33:22] that houses in the area that houses, um, young men that have been convicted, convicted of
[00:33:26] homicide.
[00:33:27] Um, so these guys are facing serious charges.
[00:33:31] Right.
[00:33:31] Uh, many of them are waiting for trial or waiting to age out to go to the adult system.
[00:33:36] Right.
[00:33:36] Um, so there's, there's grief in there.
[00:33:38] You talk about grief.
[00:33:39] There's, there's, there's some heaviness in there.
[00:33:41] Yeah.
[00:33:41] Um, but you know, as we're writing and as a lot of them have willingly, uh, through,
[00:33:49] you know, coaching and, and, and discussion change their lyrics to reflect, I'm not going
[00:33:55] to act like it's all rainbows and butterflies and God is good.
[00:33:57] These guys have been traumatized, but, but it reflects real, more real of who they are and
[00:34:03] what they want for their lives.
[00:34:04] Yes.
[00:34:05] Uh, and I just, uh, you know, for me and I, and I show God to them every chance I get,
[00:34:09] but really just get into the root of like, you are more than just a shooter or, or, uh,
[00:34:17] whatever society told you you were, uh, you are more than that.
[00:34:20] And so I'm really proud of a lot of these guys.
[00:34:22] Um, and so every week, every week, uh, it's in my name, it's right down the street from
[00:34:26] me.
[00:34:27] Every week I go into this facility and work with three to four, uh, young men that are,
[00:34:32] um, either awaiting trial or, or awaiting to go to the, to age out to the adult system.
[00:34:36] And, um, this is really dope that, um, God willing, God willing, a young man that I met
[00:34:43] in there, um, who is now, uh, out on bail, uh, will be opening for me.
[00:34:52] Oh, wow.
[00:34:53] At my release.
[00:34:55] That's nice.
[00:34:56] And so like, literally we met in lockup.
[00:34:58] That's nice.
[00:34:58] He got out on bail.
[00:34:59] We wrote a song together in lockup and finished it out outside.
[00:35:03] Yeah.
[00:35:03] And he's going to be performing that.
[00:35:05] Um, so I, you know, I'm, I'm, he, he, like full circle moment.
[00:35:10] Yeah, man.
[00:35:10] And so I'm saying God willing, cause he's, he's a, he's a teenager.
[00:35:13] So you never know if he's going to show up.
[00:35:16] I pray he shows up anyway, God willing.
[00:35:18] That's going to be what led you to working with this, uh, with this system.
[00:35:22] Well, you know, I, I'm, I'm, I've always been pretty, not always, but over the past
[00:35:26] few years, I've been pretty active with like hip hop programming, um, doing workshops
[00:35:30] with schools.
[00:35:31] How did that start?
[00:35:32] Even doing workshops with schools.
[00:35:34] How did that start?
[00:35:34] It's hard to say.
[00:35:35] I feel like it's just been so authentic.
[00:35:37] Like what was the first, what got you into the first classroom?
[00:35:42] Honestly, I don't even know.
[00:35:44] I think, I think, did you meet someone?
[00:35:45] I think somebody like saw me perform.
[00:35:47] It was like, and, and, and, and you know, when I perform, I don't want it to just be a
[00:35:51] performance.
[00:35:52] I want it to be like an engagement.
[00:35:54] Right.
[00:35:54] I don't like to just be a spec.
[00:35:56] I don't want to be a spectacle.
[00:35:57] Yes.
[00:35:57] I want to, as many great performers, you know, I want to engage the audience.
[00:36:01] So I'm often talking, I'm doing a call and response.
[00:36:04] Um, and I think somebody like a principal or something saw me and was like, Hey, do you
[00:36:10] do workshops with me?
[00:36:11] My entrepreneur yourself was like, yeah, now I do.
[00:36:14] And so, uh, and so like there was that, and I've been in several, you know, schools, obviously
[00:36:20] the, the locker facility colleges and, um, afterschool programs, churches doing hip hop
[00:36:26] programming, whether that's, uh, activities that reflect hip hop or, um, uh, you know,
[00:36:32] um, uh, I do call and response activities.
[00:36:35] I'll do like speaking engagements and engage at intersections of faith, hip hop and culture.
[00:36:41] Right.
[00:36:41] And so I've been doing that for probably about three or four years.
[00:36:44] Got it.
[00:36:45] My, uh, my, one of my funniest gigs was, uh, was me.
[00:36:48] I, I performed, I think it was last year for, uh, performed and did a hip hop workshop for
[00:36:54] a group of suburban kindergartners.
[00:36:56] I was like, God, I didn't see this coming.
[00:36:59] Right.
[00:37:00] What, what, um, it seems like you spend a lot of time in your local area, um, you know,
[00:37:06] planting seed and, you know, fertilizing that ground.
[00:37:09] Is that just kind of natural for you or is that a strategic decision you made?
[00:37:15] Both.
[00:37:16] Yeah.
[00:37:17] Duality.
[00:37:17] Yeah.
[00:37:18] Uh, no, I, I really think it is both.
[00:37:20] I think, I think it's just the path that I feel like God has led me.
[00:37:25] Um, doors have never, although I appreciate anybody nationally or globally that listens
[00:37:31] to my stuff, doors have never like swung open for, for the national platform.
[00:37:36] Um, as, as some of my, uh, counterparts have, but I've been really blessed.
[00:37:41] Uh, first of all, my parents are really rooted.
[00:37:44] Um, are they, they,
[00:37:46] they're not originally from my father is your father.
[00:37:48] Okay.
[00:37:48] And then my mother's been there for, you know, long as I've been alive.
[00:37:52] So, so my parents are rooted.
[00:37:54] Um, and they, and they've, they've cultivated a really great community.
[00:37:58] And, and I think I just followed suit.
[00:38:00] I, I, I continue to expand that community.
[00:38:03] Um, and so I always loved my neighborhood.
[00:38:06] I always loved Boston and God opened doors.
[00:38:09] He, like, so it's partly of like, yes, I have a love for this city.
[00:38:13] I have a love for my community.
[00:38:15] Mm-hmm.
[00:38:15] And then there was doors that, that I feel like, well, I haven't been on, on a national
[00:38:21] platform as, as, as robust.
[00:38:23] There's been really deep rooted and, um, amazing doors that have opened for me locally.
[00:38:29] Like I said, whether it be the justice system, I've done residencies at different camps and
[00:38:34] different places where I'll, I have actually been able to curate content.
[00:38:37] Like a nonprofit will reach out to me and say, Hey, we need you to create a song for
[00:38:41] our nonprofit or for our church or a black author reach out to me.
[00:38:46] I need you to create a song for my new book.
[00:38:47] And so, uh, just so many doors have opened for me locally.
[00:38:51] So I'm like, all right, I'll take the assist guide.
[00:38:53] This is, this is where I'm at.
[00:38:54] That's good.
[00:38:55] If you could have it your way, what would the outcomes of this project look like a year from
[00:39:02] now?
[00:39:02] Mm.
[00:39:03] A year from now.
[00:39:04] You know, I think I, I want more people in, out and around the faith to, to first embrace
[00:39:14] their story.
[00:39:15] Um, and so embracing their story, meaning like often there's parts of our story that we really
[00:39:24] just like, and that's the part, especially, you know, Christian, we, we just, that's the
[00:39:27] part that we want to put out there.
[00:39:29] Right.
[00:39:29] Uh, and we compartmentalize, uh, we talked about men with grief or, or, or stuff like that.
[00:39:35] And I think it does us a detriment when we ignore other parts of our story, whether it
[00:39:40] be to our witness, whether it be to our mental health.
[00:39:42] And so I think I want more and more people to bring their whole journey to God and to
[00:39:48] each other and to themselves, um, for the sake of being more truthful, uh, being acting
[00:39:55] with more integrity.
[00:39:56] Uh, because we, you know, you don't have to look far to hear stories of people that all
[00:40:02] of a sudden this other side of them came out and you, where did that come from?
[00:40:06] You know, and I'm, and my thing is like, what, what, what would have happened if they
[00:40:10] were able to bring their whole story to God before it got crazy?
[00:40:13] Right.
[00:40:14] Uh, what's the, what, what, how would you, I'm just going to play the, the, the adversary
[00:40:19] of this concept just for a minute.
[00:40:21] Actually, cause you know, I, I, as we talked, I agree a lot with what you're saying, but let
[00:40:24] me play the other side of it.
[00:40:26] But I need to keep concealed these other things that I don't like so much.
[00:40:32] So either, either I'm consciously or subconsciously keeping those things concealed.
[00:40:36] So tell me, what's the benefit of me opening up that way?
[00:40:40] Yeah, that's, that's, that's a good question.
[00:40:42] Well, I think, you know, first of all, it's wisdom, right?
[00:40:44] We don't, we don't, we don't share everything with everybody.
[00:40:47] We want to trust the community to do that with.
[00:40:49] But I think, you know, I, I, you know, well, if, if, if you, if you're a follower of Jesus,
[00:40:57] right, there's often we, we talk about the light.
[00:41:00] We talk about confessing our sins to others.
[00:41:02] We talk about bearing each other's burdens.
[00:41:03] We talk about grieving with those who, you know, mourning with those who mourn.
[00:41:06] Like a lot of, a lot of this kingdom life is done with transparency and vulnerability.
[00:41:12] Right.
[00:41:13] And so there's, for me, there's an aspect of kingdom life.
[00:41:17] There's an aspect of love and abundance that you just can't unlock.
[00:41:20] Right.
[00:41:21] Unless you are willing to expose some of that.
[00:41:24] Right.
[00:41:24] That's good.
[00:41:25] And so, well, I get it.
[00:41:27] I, I, I'm one of the first to say, I get it.
[00:41:29] I get why you'd want to keep certain things concealed.
[00:41:32] And some of it's because you've been at a place that wasn't safe.
[00:41:35] Well, isn't some of it a shame too?
[00:41:36] Yeah.
[00:41:37] Shame.
[00:41:38] Shame is a, shame is a huge thing.
[00:41:39] Shame is powerful, man.
[00:41:40] It's a huge, it's a huge thing.
[00:41:43] And sometimes shame isn't even your fault.
[00:41:44] You might've been at a place that made you feel ashamed.
[00:41:47] Right.
[00:41:48] And, and, and, and, and reinforce that story of I can't share anything with anybody.
[00:41:52] Yeah.
[00:41:53] But I think like, and so I can't speak for every, every community, but I want to be a
[00:41:57] space where it's, people are like, your, your story is welcome here.
[00:42:01] Right.
[00:42:01] Now we're going to, now as sanctification works, we don't, we don't affirm everything.
[00:42:05] Right.
[00:42:06] Right.
[00:42:06] But we, but we lovingly chisel and, and sculpt.
[00:42:09] And we love those things.
[00:42:11] We love people to life in terms of like, we embrace all of you so that you're like, oh,
[00:42:16] okay, I can see myself in a freedom future.
[00:42:18] I can see myself in a, in a shalom reality, you know?
[00:42:21] Right.
[00:42:21] And so, especially for men, more and more, I, you know, I know there's this temptation
[00:42:27] to compartmentalize, you know, and I could go on about kind of like, uh, this kind of
[00:42:34] hyper manhood culture that we're in now.
[00:42:37] But, um, you know, I think as men begin to embrace themselves as full human beings, because
[00:42:44] everybody got emotions.
[00:42:45] Yeah.
[00:42:45] Everybody has shame.
[00:42:47] Everybody has some level, maybe not capital T trauma, but some level of pain and hurt.
[00:42:51] And shame.
[00:42:52] And so like, why should women be the only people able to express, to, to, you know,
[00:42:58] to express that women and children, like we need that.
[00:43:01] And so I think for me, especially as a believer, but just as a person that loves people, there's
[00:43:07] a level of abundance and love and, and, and health that you can't unlock unless you're
[00:43:13] willing to open up.
[00:43:14] That's good.
[00:43:14] That's good.
[00:43:15] And there's, there's, there's so many layers to this.
[00:43:17] You know what?
[00:43:18] One of the things you made me think about was, um, uh, there's this video of this gun
[00:43:24] trainer teaching gun safety.
[00:43:27] I think I know where you go.
[00:43:27] And he's in a classroom and his brother was so professional doing the whole thing, right?
[00:43:33] He's talking.
[00:43:34] And this is the proper way.
[00:43:35] It's so cringe.
[00:43:36] And then he shoots himself in the foot.
[00:43:38] It's so cringe.
[00:43:40] And he, I mean, amazingly shoots himself in the foot and then he, he holds like, it's
[00:43:46] okay.
[00:43:46] It's okay.
[00:43:47] Yeah.
[00:43:48] It's okay.
[00:43:49] I don't even think he admitted he got shot.
[00:43:50] Right.
[00:43:50] I mean, you heard like, boom, you know, and you know, he jolted, but then it's okay.
[00:43:55] Yeah.
[00:43:55] It's all right.
[00:43:56] It's all right.
[00:43:56] Yeah.
[00:43:56] And then he goes on to try to teach, keep teaching.
[00:44:00] Yeah.
[00:44:00] And so there's two things out of that, that I think is very, uh, connected to what you're
[00:44:05] talking about.
[00:44:06] As you were talking, I saw the image of two things.
[00:44:08] One, self-inflicted wounds.
[00:44:10] Yeah.
[00:44:11] And then resisting help.
[00:44:14] Yeah.
[00:44:15] Yeah.
[00:44:15] And healing.
[00:44:15] Like you ever, you know, you ever watch a movie and then doing a movie, the person
[00:44:19] says, you know, something's happening and their parents dying, but we believe in natural
[00:44:23] remedies.
[00:44:24] Yeah.
[00:44:24] No, take the, take the medicine, get the doctor.
[00:44:27] Yeah.
[00:44:28] Yeah.
[00:44:28] Don't die there.
[00:44:29] Yeah.
[00:44:29] Right.
[00:44:29] Exactly.
[00:44:29] And, and this reminds me of that in this context of, we all have some self-inflicted
[00:44:36] wounds.
[00:44:36] Yeah.
[00:44:37] And we all at some point and sometimes resist care for the wounds.
[00:44:42] Because a lot of care is only can be accessed through vulnerability.
[00:44:47] Right.
[00:44:47] If, if, if, if you, if you put the physical metaphor, you shoot yourself.
[00:44:51] If the doctor comes over and is like, show it to me.
[00:44:54] And you're like, nah.
[00:44:55] Right.
[00:44:56] Right.
[00:44:56] Nothing happened.
[00:44:57] I didn't get shot.
[00:44:58] That's how he was in the classroom.
[00:44:59] Exactly.
[00:44:59] I know.
[00:45:00] I'm good.
[00:45:01] So if like, the doctor's like, no, I have, I have, I can dress your wound, but you have
[00:45:04] to take your hand off it.
[00:45:06] You have to like.
[00:45:07] Exactly.
[00:45:07] And you're like, nah, nah, I'm good.
[00:45:09] I'm good.
[00:45:09] What can they do?
[00:45:10] Right.
[00:45:10] And I feel like it's the same with our emotional and mental and relational health.
[00:45:14] Yeah.
[00:45:14] Yeah.
[00:45:15] And obviously that's a theme that runs throughout is like, that's part of community is, is, is
[00:45:20] encouraging people to remove their hand from the wound.
[00:45:23] Yeah.
[00:45:24] Yeah.
[00:45:24] First to the Lord, because you know, I do believe in, in the vertical, but I also believe in,
[00:45:29] in, in the, in the horizontal and the, in the, in our, God works through community often.
[00:45:34] And so I think, um, and it's a, it's a practice, right?
[00:45:37] You don't automatically get good.
[00:45:39] I have a friend, I lead a, I lead a men's group.
[00:45:42] And the first time one of my friends, I grew up with this guy and the first time he had to
[00:45:46] share, he is, his voice was trembling.
[00:45:49] His voice was literally trembling.
[00:45:51] And I've seen this man laugh off getting hit.
[00:45:54] We was beefing one time outside of club.
[00:45:57] Not, not me and him, but we were on the same side.
[00:46:00] We was beefing.
[00:46:01] Dude got hit by a car.
[00:46:02] One of the dudes used the car as a weapon.
[00:46:06] And, and, and I've seen him like, I want to say shrug it off, but kind of like laugh it off.
[00:46:11] But then speaking about his vulnerability in front of people, it was shaking, shaking.
[00:46:16] And, and, but now he's, he's a lot better at it.
[00:46:19] Right.
[00:46:19] And so it's not like, it's, it's like anything, right?
[00:46:22] It takes practice, you know?
[00:46:23] Um, and, but I want to see for me at the end of the day, I want to see believers and non-believers,
[00:46:30] but especially believers be able to love better, uh, be able to dig deeper.
[00:46:33] Yeah.
[00:46:34] Uh, be able to, to, to witness, not just with their words, but how they love and serve one another.
[00:46:39] That's good.
[00:46:40] That's good.
[00:46:41] Well, you know, what, what, um, given again, the, the depth of the content and the theme, so on and so forth.
[00:46:47] What, what if some, what's some of the early feedback and like?
[00:46:50] Yeah.
[00:46:51] Yeah.
[00:46:51] You know, so, uh, well, first and foremost, the most important folks, you know, wife, the
[00:46:56] family, uh, my brothers that I grew up with.
[00:46:59] Did you, did your dad come hug you?
[00:47:01] Yeah.
[00:47:01] Yeah.
[00:47:02] Like, do we, do we need to talk some?
[00:47:03] Yeah.
[00:47:04] Well, I, you know, me and my father have a great relationship.
[00:47:06] We're pretty vulnerable.
[00:47:07] And we've, we've, you know, set out to my dad.
[00:47:10] He's, he's, um, you know, he has his own story and I've, I, I had already seen him
[00:47:16] walking a lot of vulnerability before I started to do music.
[00:47:19] And so us getting to this level of depth wasn't even, I mean, it's, it's continuing
[00:47:24] to peel back layers, but it's like, this is, this is how we roll.
[00:47:27] And I've seen him lead with that vulnerability, but you know, feedback has been great.
[00:47:32] Like I said, I've had therapists reach out to me.
[00:47:34] Um, my communities really come behind me.
[00:47:36] Uh, different spheres of my life.
[00:47:38] And one of the biggest compliments is guys that I grew up with, like in, in the, in
[00:47:42] the streets of Dorchester, dudes that, um, dudes that know me 20, 25 years, 30 years.
[00:47:48] They used to buy weed off me.
[00:47:50] We used to, you know, do whatever.
[00:47:52] They've, they've really affirmed, gravitated toward, digested this project.
[00:47:56] And some of my biggest, I can't even call them fans cause they're my brothers, but
[00:48:00] you know, really have, uh, have, have, have been part of the musical journey.
[00:48:04] And so, yeah, the feedback, feedback has been great.
[00:48:07] Uh, you know, I, and I'm, I'm, I'm super grateful for it.
[00:48:10] That's good.
[00:48:11] Yeah.
[00:48:11] Who, who, who, if, if, if, um, if Oprah, right.
[00:48:17] Or, uh, Dr. Phil asked you to come on and, and they said, uh, Hey Caleb, who, who do you
[00:48:25] think needs this most?
[00:48:26] Cause I'm gonna make sure they get it.
[00:48:28] Yeah.
[00:48:28] Who would you tell them?
[00:48:29] Like what, what, what population, demographic, psychographic, you know, uh, avatar, like who,
[00:48:35] how would you describe?
[00:48:37] Yeah.
[00:48:37] Who needs this most?
[00:48:39] Oh, most.
[00:48:40] And that's not to say no one else needs it, but if you had to say, you know, man, this.
[00:48:44] Yeah.
[00:48:45] I would say I was, I would probably put it at black men in the urban context.
[00:48:49] You know, that's, that's, that's, I mean, that's who I am.
[00:48:53] Right.
[00:48:53] But that's, you know, with songs like mental health and physical and, and it's hip hop,
[00:49:00] you know, it's, you know, although I do believe hip hop is for everybody.
[00:49:03] Right.
[00:49:04] It's hip hop and it's, and it's real hip hop.
[00:49:07] And so, um, I did this, I wanted it to be a medium where, with black men and not, you
[00:49:15] know, uh, you know, unbeknownst to some Boston has hoods, you know, everywhere has hoods.
[00:49:22] Sure.
[00:49:22] Paris has hoods, you know?
[00:49:23] Sure.
[00:49:24] And so.
[00:49:25] Some are harder to find than others.
[00:49:27] Oh yeah, for sure.
[00:49:27] You go, if you go to the touristy seafood spots, that's not hard to define.
[00:49:31] That's not the, that's not the, that's the boss.
[00:49:33] But anyway, like I grew, you know, I, I want, I think there's a, there is a, even this black
[00:49:39] man, but there's even a, a, a, a more focused context of black men that are in the inner
[00:49:46] city context.
[00:49:47] Yes.
[00:49:47] Black and brown men that are in the inner city context.
[00:49:50] That's, that is a subculture in and of itself.
[00:49:52] Yes.
[00:49:53] Um, and a lot of intersectionality there.
[00:49:55] And so, um, I want those brothers, especially like you said, everybody else, I love, I got
[00:50:02] love for it and I want them to benefit too.
[00:50:05] But, um, that if I had to zero in or who would both benefit and who I, if only one archetype
[00:50:13] or one kind of like a group of people could hear it, that would be, that would be it.
[00:50:18] Okay.
[00:50:18] And, uh, I apologize, man.
[00:50:20] If y'all, I've been so engrossed in this conversation.
[00:50:22] I told folks on YouTube, I would check in.
[00:50:24] I am so sorry if, uh, that I didn't.
[00:50:28] And, uh, y'all, y'all forgive me, uh, but I'm checking.
[00:50:31] Okay.
[00:50:31] All right.
[00:50:31] So I didn't, it doesn't look like I missed anybody.
[00:50:34] Okay.
[00:50:34] Good deal.
[00:50:35] What, what's, I know this is a difficult question right now cause you're so heads down
[00:50:39] and focused on duality, but what's, what's next for Kayla McCoy?
[00:50:43] Hmm.
[00:50:44] Yeah.
[00:50:45] So, I mean, in terms of ministry, uh, several things are going on right now is I launched
[00:50:49] a podcast through the, through one of the ministries I work with.
[00:50:53] And so getting more into content direction, uh, I'm loving the space you got over here.
[00:50:58] Thank you.
[00:50:58] Thank you.
[00:50:59] It's a beautiful space, but getting more into content direction, uh, getting more into
[00:51:03] mentorship with other artists and just trying to bless the other creatives in my, in my
[00:51:08] community.
[00:51:09] Yeah.
[00:51:09] Uh, continuing to work in a justice system as long as God would have me there and build
[00:51:14] up other artists, um, continue to be a brother and, and, uh, be, be a, whether it be a big
[00:51:22] brother or a peer to a lot of the guys in my community, a lot of the black men that I,
[00:51:26] that I grew up with.
[00:51:27] Mm-hmm.
[00:51:28] Um, and then musically I'm, I'm making, uh, me and my brother have actually already working
[00:51:33] on more music.
[00:51:34] We work, we work, we work on me and my brother work.
[00:51:35] My brother just got inspired like six months ago and he's sending me beats every day.
[00:51:38] Gotcha.
[00:51:39] So I'm like, you about to have me, we about to have another mixtape before this album's
[00:51:42] even, uh, you know, halfway across wherever, you know?
[00:51:45] Right.
[00:51:45] Right.
[00:51:45] So we're working on music.
[00:51:47] I've been, I've been even playing with the theme of a, of a duality, you know, that could
[00:51:50] be, that could be a sequel.
[00:51:52] Interesting.
[00:51:52] Um, but I'm already working on new music.
[00:51:55] Uh, right now I'm actually working with several brothers.
[00:51:58] So like I said, I'm working with the young man that, that, uh, I met in DYS.
[00:52:01] I'm working with two other brothers that I've known for decades who also have spent most
[00:52:07] of their life in incarceration, but are now making more life giving choices and more life
[00:52:12] giving music.
[00:52:12] So I'm helping them find themselves, uh, with their music.
[00:52:16] They're both performing with me.
[00:52:17] Um, and then working with my brother, uh, and then also working on my own music.
[00:52:22] So I'm, I'm, you know, I'm getting, I'm getting older, but I still got inspiration.
[00:52:25] I'm still ready to go.
[00:52:26] You know, that's good.
[00:52:27] Last question for you, for we, uh, let you get out of here and hop on your plane and,
[00:52:32] and, and all that.
[00:52:33] Um, what you said is interesting about, uh, helping creators so on and so forth.
[00:52:38] As you dive into that work, what do you perceive to be the biggest needs for creators
[00:52:44] right now?
[00:52:44] What, what do you think creators need most?
[00:52:46] And again, you know, just based on what you know right now.
[00:52:48] Yeah.
[00:52:52] Trusted community that sees them as a whole person and not just somebody that produces.
[00:52:56] Mm.
[00:52:57] Um, say more.
[00:52:59] Well, you know, I mean, I've, I've been in church culture for a while.
[00:53:02] I'll speak to church culture for, but I've been in church culture for a while.
[00:53:04] And especially if you're involved in a church, whether you be a worship leader or, or, you
[00:53:08] know, I play the drums or something like that.
[00:53:10] It's, um, it's hard sometimes not to walk into church with just a production lens.
[00:53:14] Like we got to produce this, um, or anywhere, right?
[00:53:18] Anywhere when people know you can sing well or they know you can play well, or they know
[00:53:22] you can rap well.
[00:53:23] Right.
[00:53:24] Um, do you feel like you're just, you're put the work in and not fully loved on?
[00:53:27] Well, I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's also sometimes our fault because we love what
[00:53:31] we do so much.
[00:53:32] So it's not even like I'm begrudgingly doing it.
[00:53:34] Right.
[00:53:34] Right.
[00:53:34] I love what I do, you know, but I think you have to intentionally have a community around
[00:53:39] you that's going to, whether it be sit you down a couple of times or just come around
[00:53:43] you during the week and just do life with you and see you as a whole person.
[00:53:46] I think that's one thing.
[00:53:48] And I think on a, on a, on a totally different side, I think we were talking about this.
[00:53:51] We need more, uh, like you, we need more Mike Maxx.
[00:53:54] We need more people that really love artists, um, and, and are going to help them with all
[00:53:59] the stuff that's the non-creative, uh, that's the business side, the marketing side,
[00:54:03] the metadata side.
[00:54:05] Um, you know, just the, the, all, all of that, you know.
[00:54:09] I think the sustainability side, the planning side, I, you know, just all of that planning,
[00:54:14] scheduling.
[00:54:15] Um, I think, I think, uh, equipment, technical knowledge, uh, we need folks that really care
[00:54:23] and not really care about these artists, you know, uh, and want to know these artists
[00:54:27] because nobody can do all these things, but when you get to know people, you start to
[00:54:30] know what they can and can't do.
[00:54:32] So I think we need more.
[00:54:33] So I say trust the community that sees themselves as a whole person.
[00:54:37] Uh, but also, um, uh, folks that help them outside of just creativity and art.
[00:54:43] That's good.
[00:54:44] If folks want to book you, have you come speak, have you come minister music, license your
[00:54:50] product.
[00:54:51] Yeah.
[00:54:51] Yeah.
[00:54:52] Yeah.
[00:54:52] How should they get in contact with you?
[00:54:53] Yeah.
[00:54:54] So my, uh, you can email at Oak booking at gmail.com.
[00:54:59] Um, and you can find me on social at O a K B O Y M C C O Y.
[00:55:05] Uh, and, uh, that'll go to me and a couple other people and we'll get you to the right,
[00:55:09] right place.
[00:55:10] That's good.
[00:55:11] That's good brother.
[00:55:11] Hey, you know what?
[00:55:12] Let's close the word of prayer, man.
[00:55:13] Um, I just feel led to pray.
[00:55:15] Uh, father, we pray that you bless Caleb and, uh, his beautiful wife as they celebrate
[00:55:19] one year of marriage next year.
[00:55:21] We know that the enemy, uh, really does not like marriages and we pray that you hold theirs
[00:55:26] firm.
[00:55:27] Father, we pray that you let it be fruitful, uh, particularly given the work they are both
[00:55:32] doing to help so many other people is strenuous work.
[00:55:35] It's laboring work.
[00:55:37] It's mind boggling work.
[00:55:38] And we pray that you just continue to renew and refresh them.
[00:55:41] Give them the, your favor, Lord.
[00:55:43] We pray that you put your blessing all over this project and help it reach the ends of the
[00:55:47] earth as your will says.
[00:55:50] So father, help it touch people in a material way.
[00:55:53] We continue to, uh, pray for Caleb and that you would grow his ministry, expand his territory,
[00:55:58] give him wisdom, surround him with people that are going to be helpful.
[00:56:02] Uh, give them feedback, give them encouragement and help him grow, uh, as you see fit Lord in Jesus
[00:56:07] name.
[00:56:08] Amen.
[00:56:09] Amen.
[00:56:09] Amen.
[00:56:10] All right, y'all until next time, you know what it is.
[00:56:12] Keep it locked on Holy culture radio.
[00:56:14] Be blessed y'all.