746: Authenticity Deficit with Michael Holden

[00:00:00] This complex financing talk is very exciting. Do I get my depot ever?

[00:00:06] But you already have a depot.

[00:00:08] No.

[00:00:09] Yes, you have the Vodafone Gigadepot.

[00:00:11] That's right. And I have myself in the hand how big my depot is.

[00:00:15] Now with the Vodafone Gigadepot and the data volume of the next month. Go on in the 5G-Netz of Vodafone.

[00:00:22] Vodafone. Together we can.

[00:00:34] Family, how do you work towards becoming your most authentic self?

[00:00:39] Are you willing to dig deep to do so?

[00:00:41] Michael Holden is an experienced financial executive who's authored a book entitled The Authenticity Deficit.

[00:00:48] What financial advisors need to be relevant.

[00:00:51] Now be advised, while written to those he has had the opportunity to lead and steward,

[00:00:56] the insights, wisdom and advice are applicable to all of us.

[00:01:00] Let's jump in.

[00:01:01] What's up, family?

[00:01:03] I am in the building today with a good friend and dear brother.

[00:01:06] He is a professional in financial services.

[00:01:09] We both had stints at JPMorgan Chase, but didn't know each other at the time.

[00:01:12] We've met years ago, man, in a very, I would say very good Bible study experience.

[00:01:19] Right?

[00:01:19] Yeah.

[00:01:19] Absolutely.

[00:01:20] And he's now also an author and we're going to talk deeply about his work.

[00:01:25] Michael E. Holden is in the building.

[00:01:28] Hello.

[00:01:28] Hello.

[00:01:28] Welcome, welcome, welcome.

[00:01:30] Yes, sir.

[00:01:31] Good to have you, man.

[00:01:32] Good to, um, this is not your first time to the Philadelphia area.

[00:01:35] No, actually my, my father-in-law lives here.

[00:01:38] Right.

[00:01:39] So I, I spent some time before flying out to come join you.

[00:01:42] I'm not, we went and checked out a bunch of touristy things.

[00:01:45] Yeah.

[00:01:45] You went to Longwood gardens.

[00:01:47] We went to Longwood gardens.

[00:01:48] We went, uh, and saw the, uh, uh, Gettysburg and spent a day going to the different museums

[00:01:54] and, uh, no reenactments, but, uh, it was really interesting.

[00:01:58] Good.

[00:01:59] Beautiful state.

[00:02:00] It's a beautiful place.

[00:02:00] Longwood, I haven't been in a while.

[00:02:01] My wife is going to hear this and say, yes, we have not been in a while.

[00:02:05] We need to do that.

[00:02:06] And, uh, so on and so forth.

[00:02:08] So you've had a, a, a interesting journey, man.

[00:02:12] You've had, um, tons of experience in financial services.

[00:02:15] You've been a business professional.

[00:02:16] Uh, you've been obviously a student and you're saved, you know, our Lord and Savior, Jesus

[00:02:21] Christ.

[00:02:22] Um, but you're now an author and I want to, I want to hold this up for a second.

[00:02:27] People, Michael Holden's book, authenticity deficit with financial advisors need to be relevant.

[00:02:34] Why this book?

[00:02:35] Why now?

[00:02:36] Yes, sir.

[00:02:37] I think in the world that we live in James, I think, well, there's a whole lot of hurt.

[00:02:43] There's a lot of confusion.

[00:02:44] There's a lot of false narratives with each of us and how we address ourselves specifically.

[00:02:52] And I think raining or, or not raining.

[00:02:56] How about sprinkling some sunshine on the darkness that is within us and the way we talk

[00:03:01] to ourselves is absolutely needed right now, perhaps more so than ever.

[00:03:08] Mm hmm.

[00:03:08] And I felt called James.

[00:03:10] I felt called and it was tumultuous.

[00:03:12] I think I do believe that God doesn't call on the equipped.

[00:03:17] He equips the call.

[00:03:18] Indeed.

[00:03:19] And I kept trying to fight it just with my, the patterns of my routine, fight the call,

[00:03:25] fight the call, fight the call.

[00:03:26] And it got to a point of, as I finished the book, took me two and a half years while working

[00:03:32] full time.

[00:03:32] Yeah.

[00:03:33] Where I couldn't ignore it anymore.

[00:03:35] Just watching too many people suffer.

[00:03:37] I'm watching too much in authenticity, compromise our standards at the sake or the sake of metrics.

[00:03:46] Yeah.

[00:03:47] So metrics have overtaken standard and that is a huge issue.

[00:03:51] So now let's talk about this because I think you have a unique perspective.

[00:03:54] Walk us through your professional journey.

[00:03:57] Start with how you got into financial services.

[00:03:59] Ooh, yes.

[00:04:00] So, uh, I come from a, a mixed ethnicity background.

[00:04:04] My mother's Indian.

[00:04:06] My father who I lost in my twenties is English, but somewhat stereotypical when, when I was

[00:04:11] born, my mother proclaimed you will be a doctor.

[00:04:14] Hey, can I say something real quick?

[00:04:16] Right?

[00:04:16] So, so we always, we always laugh and say, Hey brother, we're brothers from another mother,

[00:04:20] but I've never really paid that much attention to the fact that you're Indian.

[00:04:23] Right?

[00:04:24] Last night after dinner and my wife and I have talked about this for years.

[00:04:28] We can't help but notice that many Indian people like to take a walk after dinner.

[00:04:33] Hmm.

[00:04:33] Right.

[00:04:34] But I've never done that.

[00:04:35] So last night when you said, Hey, can we walk and talk?

[00:04:39] Sure.

[00:04:40] And then it clicked.

[00:04:41] Oh yes, right.

[00:04:42] Hey, Michael's Indian.

[00:04:42] This may be a part of the, what he does culturally.

[00:04:45] Right?

[00:04:45] So we're walking and I enjoyed it.

[00:04:47] Right?

[00:04:48] I got home and told my wife, I said, I felt lighter.

[00:04:50] You know, sometimes you have that after dinner, heavy feel that sets in and whatnot.

[00:04:56] I felt lighter.

[00:04:57] I felt refreshed on my feet.

[00:04:59] And so.

[00:05:00] I love that.

[00:05:01] Thanks for inviting, inviting that last night.

[00:05:03] I will tell you, it is not, to the best of my knowledge, I'm born and raised American.

[00:05:07] So I don't, I never really grew up with an Indian culture.

[00:05:11] Okay.

[00:05:11] Um, and it even goes deeper.

[00:05:13] We're super mixed, but, uh, like everyone, I think, but, uh, my father told me as a young

[00:05:18] man, the most honest way to bond with someone is to simply walk with them.

[00:05:24] Hmm.

[00:05:25] And that became a habit that's been instilled in me where when I authentically want to bond

[00:05:30] and just be vulnerable and be open.

[00:05:32] Yeah.

[00:05:33] The best way to do it is to walk.

[00:05:35] That was good.

[00:05:35] That was, that was a learning moment for me, uh, because having observed it before.

[00:05:39] Yeah.

[00:05:39] So sorry, I cut you off.

[00:05:41] So, so, so on your professional journey, uh, I lost my dad in my twenties.

[00:05:45] Sorry.

[00:05:45] My parents, uh, they're both first generation American.

[00:05:50] Yeah.

[00:05:50] And my mom came as a medical professional.

[00:05:53] She's a nursing.

[00:05:54] My, my dad, uh, my mom was actually brought to this country in 1969 and the rain drain.

[00:05:59] There was a deficit of medical professionals.

[00:06:02] Got it.

[00:06:02] She was teaching in New Delhi, got a letter from Northwestern in Chicago.

[00:06:05] Please come to America.

[00:06:07] We'll give you citizenship.

[00:06:08] That's how, that's how she came to America.

[00:06:11] Gotcha.

[00:06:11] My father fixed air conditioners.

[00:06:13] Now, mom was really good at books, really good in her profession and was called to be in,

[00:06:19] in the medical profession, but she never had a financial plan.

[00:06:24] And when dad got sick and things went ugly fast and bills became something that it was

[00:06:30] either, Hey, I do what I gotta do to pay these bills.

[00:06:32] Right.

[00:06:33] Or I lose my husband.

[00:06:34] Well, it decimated our family and, uh, it, it made the family virtually almost go broke.

[00:06:40] And you know, no financial plan.

[00:06:43] There was really no education around it back then.

[00:06:46] Mm.

[00:06:47] You know, people really didn't stress the importance of having prudent planning in the event that.

[00:06:53] Yes.

[00:06:53] Dad gets sick.

[00:06:54] Yeah.

[00:06:55] Uh, I lost my dad when he was 60 years old to a sudden heart attack amongst other things.

[00:06:59] But that opened my eyes that there was a definite need beyond mom's calling for me to be a doctor,

[00:07:07] for me to go and help other families to make sure that honestly, what happened to us didn't happen to them.

[00:07:12] Gotcha.

[00:07:13] Gotcha.

[00:07:13] And it seems like I love just speaking simply.

[00:07:16] I think I went out of my way to write in this, uh, to write this book and just clear, plain, easy to understand English.

[00:07:23] It is.

[00:07:24] Thank you for that.

[00:07:24] Well, I think when we get in finance, you start to speak in this jargon and people have no idea.

[00:07:30] And they're just, you just have circles run around you.

[00:07:33] And it's like, I have no idea what's going on.

[00:07:34] Yeah.

[00:07:35] And most people just want the meeting to end, you know?

[00:07:38] And so I think speaking clearly was something that I felt called to do.

[00:07:42] So I started as a commercial underwriter and then from underwriting, I went, I was a banker, a business banker.

[00:07:49] I was a financial advisor for several years.

[00:07:51] Then I got into management and to senior management and then, um, executive style management.

[00:07:57] And, um, again, at that point, so that I just glossed over 20 plus years.

[00:08:03] No, but that's good.

[00:08:03] I mean, so you had, you, you went through several layers.

[00:08:05] You didn't jump in quote unquote at the top.

[00:08:07] You've, you worked your way up and have seen all these different things in terms of, uh, how financial services operates.

[00:08:14] Yes.

[00:08:15] In terms of the client facing and the not client facing, so to speak.

[00:08:19] Yeah.

[00:08:19] And thanks for even saying that for specifically, I've had my toe dipped professionally in almost every pool of retail finance.

[00:08:27] Yeah.

[00:08:27] So if it was finance for the masses, I did it.

[00:08:30] If it was finance specifically for a very niche group of business, I did it.

[00:08:34] Right.

[00:08:35] If it was the private client group, I did it.

[00:08:37] And so truly, as I sit in this chair, I have seen the many facets of all the different types of segmentations within retail finance.

[00:08:49] So when you sat down to start writing authenticity, uh, deficit, which if I remember correctly had three turns at a crank, uh, you know, in terms of, uh, you, you rewrote it.

[00:09:01] It did.

[00:09:01] It did.

[00:09:03] It did.

[00:09:03] Twice after the original.

[00:09:05] What, what did you want to achieve when you, when you started?

[00:09:08] And then we'll come later to, you know, what you hope people take away from it.

[00:09:11] But when you first sat down, what was the thesis?

[00:09:14] What was the, this is the problem I want to solve.

[00:09:17] Yeah.

[00:09:18] I think, uh, quality of care is diminished when you're not called to do it, when you're not real about doing it.

[00:09:24] And when you somewhat hold out that the quality of care is first, but it's not.

[00:09:31] Gotcha.

[00:09:31] It's not.

[00:09:32] Now, what I'll say too, is, uh, it, I had this notion of in the early 1900s, they gave us the IQ, which was the intelligence quotient.

[00:09:42] And you literally had kids running around in recess bragging.

[00:09:46] I have a higher IQ than you.

[00:09:48] And the IQ was a condemnation because there was nothing you could really do about it.

[00:09:53] Right.

[00:09:54] And so the IQ is somewhat of a bogus quotient.

[00:09:56] Then we get to the early two thousands.

[00:09:59] They gave us that EQ, which I studied the emotional quotient, emotional intelligence.

[00:10:04] Um, I actually, I wasn't advocate.

[00:10:06] I am an advocate of it.

[00:10:07] It worked.

[00:10:08] Right.

[00:10:08] But what was so hopeful about the EQ quotient, this emotional quotient is that you could do those pushups and get better at it.

[00:10:16] You can actually have a awareness of what is my emotional quotient in this and see an increase or decrease and help yourself.

[00:10:25] Now I've done it.

[00:10:26] I believe in it.

[00:10:27] So, well, what's next?

[00:10:29] Right.

[00:10:29] Particularly after all of these events in our society, I'm proposing that we now look and turn to the authenticity quotient.

[00:10:39] And authenticity, I, I mentioned it, it was a $12 word and we keep using it and using it and using it where I think we're diluting something that is so powerful.

[00:10:52] Authenticity in every single facet of how we exist is, you know, in re in regard to the book, authenticity is the percentage gap of what's in it for me.

[00:11:03] Verse, how can I serve you?

[00:11:05] Hmm.

[00:11:06] And we say that our quality of care is all about serving, but if we're honest with ourself, especially in wealth management, how much about it is what's in it for me.

[00:11:16] Yeah.

[00:11:16] Yeah.

[00:11:16] And, and that's a gap in authenticity, but now to your point of writing this two and three and maybe four times now, I think AQ is applicable across all of our hearts, across all of the world.

[00:11:29] Yeah.

[00:11:29] You know, so it's, it's no longer, all right, I'm a financial advisor.

[00:11:33] What's in it for me?

[00:11:34] How about I'm a husband?

[00:11:36] Uh, how much am I acting on my behalf at the, at the sake of what I'm supposed to be doing for my wife?

[00:11:42] Yeah.

[00:11:43] And take that to my kids, take that to how I exist in my community.

[00:11:47] How authentic am I?

[00:11:48] How much am I serving myself verse how much I can be serving others?

[00:11:53] Yep.

[00:11:53] And I think humans, all of us have to feel like we're growing.

[00:11:58] I think I was sharing this with you last night.

[00:12:00] We have to feel like we're growing and we have to feel like we're contributing.

[00:12:04] Mm-hmm.

[00:12:05] And, and if we, if we rise to an occasion of say making money or growing a business and

[00:12:10] we do it without an honest growth in our development and an honest contribution for the betterment

[00:12:18] of people.

[00:12:18] Right.

[00:12:19] We failed.

[00:12:19] Right.

[00:12:20] We failed.

[00:12:20] There's, man, there's so much in what you just said.

[00:12:22] So, so one is to, to your point of wanting to serve others and, uh, and achieve too, right?

[00:12:30] Those two things.

[00:12:31] And I don't think those two things, uh, are mutually exclusive, right?

[00:12:34] You can serve others and still, uh, with an achievement mindset, get things done.

[00:12:38] But there's the other thing in there about, um, that gap you mentioned between service,

[00:12:45] uh, of others and service itself.

[00:12:47] Right.

[00:12:48] And one of the things I want the listeners and viewers to really hone in on is this is not

[00:12:53] limited to financial advisors.

[00:12:54] You just started to touch on that.

[00:12:55] This is, this is us and how we operate period.

[00:12:58] Right.

[00:12:59] And I think the cultural context obviously is what you lasered on, but this is just, just

[00:13:03] us.

[00:13:04] How do you, how do you think about what causes us to be less than authentic, particularly in,

[00:13:12] in, in a work context?

[00:13:14] What is, what is causing that for financial advisors as a start?

[00:13:18] I mentioned that I think metrics have taken over standards.

[00:13:23] Yeah.

[00:13:24] Right.

[00:13:24] And let me give you a, just a, a different styled example.

[00:13:27] If we think about hospitals, you demand a standard of cleanliness metrics of say a metric, a

[00:13:36] hospital metrics would be patient bed turnover ratios.

[00:13:39] What's the velocity of getting this person in, getting them served, getting them out so

[00:13:43] that we can move the needle on revenue.

[00:13:45] Yes.

[00:13:45] Well, that's, that's a metrics.

[00:13:46] Right.

[00:13:47] Right.

[00:13:47] And when standards get overlooked at the sake of driving a metrics, we've lost everything.

[00:13:53] Yeah.

[00:13:53] And that's for our hearts.

[00:13:55] That's for what we do professionally.

[00:13:56] That's for it all.

[00:13:57] Right.

[00:13:58] Similarly, imagine, take the same analogy and put it on a restaurant.

[00:14:02] So we demand a standard of cleanliness and sanitation and our food has to be clean.

[00:14:11] Right.

[00:14:11] Right.

[00:14:11] But also if I'm the restaurant owner, there is a degree of, well, let's get them to the

[00:14:16] table.

[00:14:16] Let's get them their food and let's get them out so we can get the next table.

[00:14:19] Right.

[00:14:19] The second we start compromising the standards that we demand and that we deserve so that

[00:14:26] the bottom line could be fed with more revenue.

[00:14:29] Well, are you really going to go to that restaurant?

[00:14:32] Are you really going to go die at that hospital?

[00:14:34] Right.

[00:14:34] You know, and so I'm watching this happen in all sectors, you know, be it education,

[00:14:40] be it medicine, be it the government, be it in all sectors in our country.

[00:14:45] There is an authenticity deficit where I'm hoping what I'm hoping to achieve is for person

[00:14:52] by person, for people to be honest with themselves and ask themselves, even if you are, you're

[00:15:01] subservient to the, to the bosses above you.

[00:15:03] I mean, we've all been in those situations.

[00:15:06] You'll have.

[00:15:06] Absolutely.

[00:15:07] We're, we're, they're just pounding on you, pounding on you.

[00:15:10] How many widgets did you get?

[00:15:11] Yeah.

[00:15:12] Right.

[00:15:12] How do you be honest with yourself that you don't breach those standards that probably

[00:15:18] brought you to your job in the first place?

[00:15:20] Mm hmm.

[00:15:20] Let's take it to another level.

[00:15:22] If it didn't bring you to that job.

[00:15:24] Well, I think we have to have another conversation of, are you being authentic with the time God

[00:15:28] gave you?

[00:15:29] Yeah.

[00:15:29] And that leap of faith, that's a whole other show maybe.

[00:15:32] Absolutely.

[00:15:32] Absolutely.

[00:15:33] But I think these are some very serious things that we, we have to discuss.

[00:15:38] Yeah.

[00:15:39] You know?

[00:15:39] And so it started as an honest, like, I just hope to get people to start talking about

[00:15:44] it.

[00:15:44] Were there a few observations that really kind of pushed you over that broke, you know,

[00:15:48] what was the straw that broke the camel's back?

[00:15:50] Because if it sounds like you had a number of observations and your, um, corporate context,

[00:15:56] right.

[00:15:56] We're working with financial advisors and whatnot.

[00:15:58] Was there a series of observations that, that finally made you say that is enough.

[00:16:03] I've got to talk about this.

[00:16:05] Hmm.

[00:16:06] That's a good question.

[00:16:08] Yes.

[00:16:08] And no.

[00:16:09] Okay.

[00:16:10] Because one of the things I mentioned in the book and that I'll mention now is that

[00:16:14] we don't have to have a breaking point to be closer to our authenticity.

[00:16:19] Yeah.

[00:16:20] If we're closer to our authenticity, we could change the job that we're in.

[00:16:24] And I'd submit to you for 20 years.

[00:16:27] We did that.

[00:16:28] Yeah.

[00:16:28] I did that.

[00:16:29] I looked at things as a quality of care.

[00:16:31] I looked at clients as my patients.

[00:16:33] Yeah.

[00:16:33] And my dignity and my love for why I got in this thing in the first place was not compromise.

[00:16:39] Yeah.

[00:16:40] I agree with you.

[00:16:41] We don't, we don't have to have a breaking point, but I feel like here's how I would characterize

[00:16:46] what I thought I saw and what I read.

[00:16:49] Mm hmm.

[00:16:50] You've ascended to this position where let's just say it.

[00:16:54] Um, you, you're in top 1% income earning pool, right.

[00:16:59] In the country, if not the world, you, you, you're doing really well.

[00:17:03] And yet it's almost like being over top of a, of a warehouse watching people work on, um,

[00:17:09] what do you call them?

[00:17:10] Uh, the, the, the work streams and the, the belt, the conveyor belt.

[00:17:13] The conveyor belt.

[00:17:13] Yes.

[00:17:14] Yes.

[00:17:14] And like, you're looking over the factory and then you say, while knowing this could hurt

[00:17:19] you, this is not right.

[00:17:22] This is not right.

[00:17:23] This is not right.

[00:17:24] Not, not just for me, but for all of these folks and the people we say we serve.

[00:17:29] And so was that a slow burn build or was it one morning you just said, you know, I, I just

[00:17:36] can't take this anymore.

[00:17:38] I would say both.

[00:17:39] Okay.

[00:17:40] I would say both because some of the firms that I've worked at, which shall remain nameless.

[00:17:45] We'll do that.

[00:17:46] We'll, but some of the firms are so big, you know, 200, almost 300,000 employees.

[00:17:52] Absolutely.

[00:17:52] It's like this Titanic.

[00:17:54] Absolutely.

[00:17:55] Or, or to your analogy, it's this enormous warehouse, but I would say that I would go person

[00:18:00] by person.

[00:18:01] Mm-hmm .

[00:18:02] If ever I took over a territory that say had 50 to a hundred people, I met every single

[00:18:07] person.

[00:18:07] Right.

[00:18:07] A minimum of an hour multiple times.

[00:18:11] Mm-hmm .

[00:18:11] And I get to know what make my people tick.

[00:18:14] Right.

[00:18:14] And in getting to know them, I would try to align what they were passionate about to what

[00:18:19] they were charged to do per day.

[00:18:20] Yeah.

[00:18:20] So one advisor loves planning.

[00:18:22] Great.

[00:18:22] Let's make that the focal point of your engagement.

[00:18:26] You know, another advisor loves a client appreciation things.

[00:18:29] Great.

[00:18:29] Let's implement that into your practice.

[00:18:31] So you pair people and you, you use your authority to enable your people to be their best selves.

[00:18:39] Right.

[00:18:39] Well, when you're told that that that's over and you need to march to the drum and you're

[00:18:46] watching things fall through the cracks, IE quality of care.

[00:18:50] Well, then that becomes a problem.

[00:18:51] That becomes a boiling point.

[00:18:53] Yep.

[00:18:53] Right.

[00:18:53] You know, and I remember my father had given me a analogy.

[00:18:57] He was awesome at all these analogies.

[00:18:59] Mm-hmm .

[00:18:59] And he said, uh, he had a, he had an English accent and I can't impersonate it, but you

[00:19:03] know, he'd say, you know, son, if you stand in the shadow of a person who's doing something

[00:19:08] wrong long enough.

[00:19:10] Right.

[00:19:10] Behold, you cast the same shadow.

[00:19:12] Yeah.

[00:19:13] Yeah.

[00:19:13] Yeah.

[00:19:13] And that haunts me.

[00:19:15] Right.

[00:19:15] So to answer your question, was there a boiling point when there were breaches and things

[00:19:21] that I thought were easily solvable?

[00:19:22] Yeah.

[00:19:23] Just don't do that.

[00:19:24] Yeah.

[00:19:24] Yeah.

[00:19:24] Why are we pushing this hard?

[00:19:26] Yeah.

[00:19:26] It's not that serious.

[00:19:27] So I want to, I'm going to use another metaphor and I'm going to do this constantly because

[00:19:30] I want people who are in different work environments to get this right.

[00:19:36] Um, let's take it to landscaping.

[00:19:38] Hmm.

[00:19:39] You're a landscaping foreman.

[00:19:41] You drive to different sites and work and oversee the different teams working on different

[00:19:45] commercial and residential properties.

[00:19:47] As a part of what you started to do, your idea was let's help our customers grow great

[00:19:52] lawns.

[00:19:53] Let's, they want the greenest lawns, the most, uh, uh, healthy lawns that will be there year

[00:19:59] over year.

[00:20:00] We're going to plant the right shrubs and whatnot.

[00:20:01] And then you find out that the materials that are being used are not great materials.

[00:20:07] The fertilizer is subpar, the, the whatever.

[00:20:10] Right.

[00:20:10] And you start talking to your people who do the work and you say, well, listen, don't,

[00:20:15] don't, don't do that.

[00:20:16] Oh no, but that's the fertilizer corporate scent.

[00:20:18] No, no, no, no.

[00:20:18] We shouldn't use that.

[00:20:19] That is over time going to kill that grass.

[00:20:23] That's good.

[00:20:23] And so then you get a call from corporate who says, Hey man, you overlooked these 25

[00:20:30] teams that consist of about 150 people.

[00:20:33] And we heard you're telling them not to use the corporate scent fertilizer to go get this

[00:20:39] other stuff, right?

[00:20:41] Turf.

[00:20:41] Good.

[00:20:42] We don't do that.

[00:20:43] Right.

[00:20:43] And you say back, but no, the stuff you sent is going to kill that grass over time.

[00:20:49] And they say, well, that, but listen, that is what we're using.

[00:20:53] That scenario is kind of what I hear you saying.

[00:20:55] Yes.

[00:20:56] And that scenario.

[00:20:57] Well done, sir.

[00:20:58] Because that is exactly this type of authenticity deficit where metrics overtake standards.

[00:21:07] Overtake standards.

[00:21:08] Right.

[00:21:08] Yep.

[00:21:08] Yep.

[00:21:08] And so in, I've been in those situations a million times and you as an executive, I'm

[00:21:13] sure you have as well.

[00:21:15] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:21:15] I was the type of guy for the past 20 plus years.

[00:21:18] What I would do is I would sit down and I would figure what the deficit was in the

[00:21:23] corporate issued material and use whatever I had in front of me to change it.

[00:21:27] So how do you, so now let's, let's talk about the different people in that scenario.

[00:21:31] You've got the, the guy who's the closest to the grass that puts down the fertilizer.

[00:21:37] You probably have the onsite supervisor.

[00:21:41] Mm hmm.

[00:21:41] Then you have you who oversees these teams and then you're the conduit to corporate.

[00:21:46] Let's talk about each person for the person who's closest to the grass.

[00:21:50] What do you encourage them to do if they really feel like they're in the wrong place?

[00:21:54] Cause in the book, one of the things you do really well is not only shine a spotlight

[00:21:58] and for lack of better terms, expose what some of the challenges are.

[00:22:02] You then start highlighting decisions people may want to make.

[00:22:06] Well, actually, let me insert a step in between you, you, you, you put a spotlight

[00:22:10] on and kind of expose what the challenges are.

[00:22:12] You ask people to kind of do a self assessment of where they are.

[00:22:16] Okay.

[00:22:17] And then you say, okay, if, if this is the place you still want to be in this profession,

[00:22:22] there are a couple of different things you could do, right?

[00:22:25] You could still stay with a firm.

[00:22:26] You could hang your own shingles, do your own thing, or you could do a,

[00:22:29] I forget what you call it in front, uh, advisory, like be a go independent,

[00:22:32] independent.

[00:22:33] Yeah.

[00:22:33] And so on and so forth.

[00:22:35] Taking back to the example of landscaping, the guy who's closest to the grass,

[00:22:39] he does the self assessment and say, this does not feel right.

[00:22:43] What do you suggest to him?

[00:22:45] Hmm.

[00:22:46] One is you have to start that the greatest training room is the room where you're

[00:22:50] by yourself in silence.

[00:22:52] Right.

[00:22:53] That's the first, the first is you got to get honest with yourself.

[00:22:56] Yeah.

[00:22:57] How passionate are you about this?

[00:22:59] Yeah.

[00:22:59] Is this the hill that you're going to die on?

[00:23:01] Right.

[00:23:02] However, you also like, are you a rookie?

[00:23:05] Did you, have you been doing this for 20 years?

[00:23:07] Do you have the skills to go do this and solve this problem on your own?

[00:23:10] Are you, are, can you fix the issue itself or, or are you bankable to make sure you can go

[00:23:14] get another job?

[00:23:15] What do you fix this problem by yourself?

[00:23:17] Got it.

[00:23:18] Okay.

[00:23:18] Or can you go start your own business to solve this problem?

[00:23:21] Got it.

[00:23:21] Right.

[00:23:22] Because, uh, in the book I addressed senior and rookies.

[00:23:26] Yeah.

[00:23:26] Right.

[00:23:26] You know, am I being provided by this company I'm working for the best tools available for

[00:23:33] me to do the best job just via my own integrity?

[00:23:36] Yep.

[00:23:36] Right.

[00:23:37] So that's the, that's the thing.

[00:23:38] And I opened with, is this the hill you're going to die on?

[00:23:41] Yeah.

[00:23:41] Right.

[00:23:42] Yeah.

[00:23:42] In this analogy, if I'm the first person on the line, am I going to see that there's

[00:23:46] a huge issue here?

[00:23:47] Right.

[00:23:48] If I do, well, let's think of the options.

[00:23:50] Yeah.

[00:23:50] Right.

[00:23:51] But the biggest thing is I, I want, I want people to go beyond not like just, just beyond

[00:23:58] getting the job done.

[00:23:59] Mm-hmm .

[00:24:00] You know, I, I really want people, this is such a formative experience for me because

[00:24:04] this is a big deal to, I walked away James from my career.

[00:24:09] Um, well let's talk about that.

[00:24:10] Let's not, let's not gloss over that.

[00:24:12] Yes.

[00:24:12] I mean, cause in writing the book, I have to imagine that you knew, cause we both know

[00:24:17] the different environments we've been in, you knew this was not going to go over well.

[00:24:21] I absolutely knew.

[00:24:23] How did you count that cost?

[00:24:24] I absolutely, you know what?

[00:24:25] I think, I think living a life of Excel spreadsheets and living a life of what percentage to goal.

[00:24:32] Yeah.

[00:24:32] I think this was not about that.

[00:24:34] I think this was about, Hey, he's calling, he's calling, he's calling.

[00:24:39] And I kept doing the Heisman doing the Heisman.

[00:24:41] Nope.

[00:24:42] Nope.

[00:24:42] I just got to get this project done.

[00:24:43] I just got to go do this.

[00:24:44] Maybe I'll go do that.

[00:24:45] Maybe.

[00:24:46] And then I found that I was not listening and that scares me more than God's calling

[00:24:51] to God's calling.

[00:24:52] Yeah.

[00:24:52] And that scares me more than anything.

[00:24:53] What did the calling feel like?

[00:24:55] Yeah.

[00:24:56] It's a, when you're in silence and you're in that room, that that's the, the mega training

[00:25:01] room is when you're by yourself.

[00:25:02] Yeah.

[00:25:03] Just that, you know, in your gut that there's something in you that you need to share.

[00:25:08] Prayer and prayer time and silent time.

[00:25:11] Prayer petition thankfulness.

[00:25:14] Right.

[00:25:14] And you just know, you hear it.

[00:25:16] Like there is something that is, that I was allowed to experience that if I share it and

[00:25:24] I share it with the family, I share it with people in the community and you watch them

[00:25:28] chain.

[00:25:29] All of a sudden you can see his calling through what's happening through his people.

[00:25:34] Right.

[00:25:34] And so I, I, let me say this.

[00:25:36] I am not an expert in authenticity.

[00:25:39] I opened it.

[00:25:40] I opened the book by saying I am not like a guru.

[00:25:44] Right.

[00:25:44] Right.

[00:25:45] Right.

[00:25:45] But I am, I am feeling called that to at least open this conversation for us as a people to,

[00:25:51] to just start discussing.

[00:25:54] Yes.

[00:25:54] Just start discussing.

[00:25:56] Are you authentically where you should be?

[00:25:58] But let's just very loosely unfold this and say, imagine if we were all so honest with

[00:26:05] ourselves.

[00:26:06] Yes.

[00:26:06] And we position ourselves to be in a spot where we love ourselves and we love what we're

[00:26:10] doing and we love, right.

[00:26:12] The world will be a better place.

[00:26:14] Yes.

[00:26:15] Authenticity will be back.

[00:26:16] I grew up in the eighties.

[00:26:18] Right.

[00:26:18] Yeah.

[00:26:19] Growing up in the eighties, having a black party was a regular thing and you would have

[00:26:24] a Republican sit at the same table as a Democrat.

[00:26:27] No one even saw it that way.

[00:26:29] Yes.

[00:26:29] And people would come and tell you, well, based on my research, these are my views.

[00:26:33] And based off what I've seen, these are my views.

[00:26:34] And people would just continue with eating their hamburgers and hot dogs.

[00:26:38] It wasn't a thing.

[00:26:39] Yeah.

[00:26:40] Sure.

[00:26:41] I would submit to you a little bit more comfortable in their skin back then.

[00:26:44] And all of us are uncomfortable in our skin right now.

[00:26:48] Yes.

[00:26:49] So the only way for us to grow out of this, earn our way out of it is to start getting comfortable

[00:26:56] in our skin.

[00:26:57] Yeah.

[00:26:57] And the only way to get comfortable in your skin is to be honest with yourself and start

[00:27:01] assessing every portion of your life that doesn't allow you to be honest with yourself.

[00:27:06] Yeah.

[00:27:06] That's good.

[00:27:07] So obviously you did that and you've probably coached some other people through doing that.

[00:27:11] I am, I am interested that, or I do find it interesting that even though you had the calling, you

[00:27:19] didn't have the prompting to count the cost.

[00:27:21] And I'll tell you why.

[00:27:22] I remember, I remember even going through a conversation with a few folks when we were figuring out how to respond during the George Floyd moment.

[00:27:32] I remember a friend of mine saying to me, I definitely want to do something.

[00:27:36] I know it's going to cost something.

[00:27:38] And I remember walking away from that conversation saying, yes, it will.

[00:27:43] When you, when you make, you know, what will be viewed as a radical change.

[00:27:46] And I say that because I think when you, when you have a calling to many, it's radical because they don't get it.

[00:27:52] And just like I said to you last night, I've, I've come to understand that God gives a vision to a person, not a committee.

[00:27:57] So there won't be eight people around a table, high five.

[00:28:00] And yes, yes, that is the calling.

[00:28:04] You've got to go when you have it.

[00:28:06] Uh, but I found myself and some other folks who you do have that moment of, oof, this is gonna, you know, this is, this is gonna cost something.

[00:28:14] So you didn't have that moment.

[00:28:16] So now post you, um, putting out the book, being vocal about the challenges and whatnot, how would you speak to what that has resulted in for you personally?

[00:28:30] In counting the cost.

[00:28:31] Yeah.

[00:28:31] Uh, it's been close to three years that I've been working on this book.

[00:28:36] Yeah.

[00:28:36] And three times of rewriting it.

[00:28:38] And really I had to get the buy in and support from my wife.

[00:28:43] Yes.

[00:28:44] And so we did count the cost.

[00:28:45] I did.

[00:28:46] I still slow dance with my wife often.

[00:28:49] Nice.

[00:28:49] The kids watch and they have like this.

[00:28:51] They just turn away.

[00:28:52] Oh, they, oh, they're still young.

[00:28:53] How old are they?

[00:28:54] They're seven, 10 and 11.

[00:28:55] Got you.

[00:28:56] Cheesy smile.

[00:28:57] Gotcha.

[00:28:58] And, and I said, you know, honey, I, I feel like I'm called to do this book.

[00:29:02] I feel it in my heart.

[00:29:04] I feel it in my skin.

[00:29:05] And, uh, I've been wrestling with it for years.

[00:29:09] And by answering this call, we have to be prepared that everything in our life as we know it may have to be given to God.

[00:29:18] And so, right.

[00:29:20] I'm not on an executive salary anymore.

[00:29:22] I'm not independently wealthy.

[00:29:24] I'm not, but I am wealthy in faith.

[00:29:27] Yeah.

[00:29:28] And I do believe this is part of being authentic.

[00:29:30] This is part of putting the money where your mouth is, right?

[00:29:33] Is it these companies that, that clothe me and feed me and provide for me?

[00:29:39] Yes.

[00:29:39] Or is it God?

[00:29:40] Yeah.

[00:29:41] Now, you know, I think faith in the little things like we were talking about are easy to, to exhibit.

[00:29:48] Oh God, I'll get me safely from Chicago to Pennsylvania.

[00:29:53] You know, that's, that's, that's faith.

[00:29:56] I have faith.

[00:29:57] Um, just little things, you know, God, God's going to let me get over this cold, I believe.

[00:30:02] Right.

[00:30:02] But then all of a sudden it's like, well, God's the one who actually provides for how I provide.

[00:30:08] Yeah.

[00:30:09] My kids are his kids.

[00:30:10] My wife is his kid.

[00:30:11] My mom is his kid.

[00:30:12] Right.

[00:30:13] And so I'm in a moment where, oh man, you know, I, I am showing that I believe it's God who not only gives me bread, but butters my bread.

[00:30:23] Yeah.

[00:30:23] And I have faith.

[00:30:24] We'll see.

[00:30:25] We'll, we'll see where this goes.

[00:30:26] That's good.

[00:30:27] But the truth is, dude, it ain't, it ain't easy.

[00:30:31] I know that's right.

[00:30:33] And so, um, and so if you want to take this journey, one of the things you mentioned is start with the self-assessment.

[00:30:38] Yeah.

[00:30:39] Start with the self-assessment.

[00:30:40] The second thing is, uh, well, and not necessarily sequentially, but you talked about this authenticity quotient.

[00:30:46] That's interesting.

[00:30:47] Yes.

[00:30:48] How would that evolve?

[00:30:49] So thanks for bringing up the assessment.

[00:30:51] Yeah.

[00:30:52] As I was telling you last night, that's where I just stonewalled the, okay, we got the book.

[00:30:57] It's hard to concentrate and get all that in order.

[00:31:00] But I, I was working on an actual test for, for people to take.

[00:31:05] Yeah.

[00:31:06] And I, I just kept getting stuck.

[00:31:08] Mm.

[00:31:08] And finally, I just submitted it, uh, to the website to create.

[00:31:12] Nice.

[00:31:12] It should be done in the next two weeks.

[00:31:14] Nice.

[00:31:14] And what I'll tell you is I'm thinking, I'm thinking for everyone on this radio station, uh, that we have a window.

[00:31:23] Yes.

[00:31:23] We'll have a website for free games where people can take it for free.

[00:31:26] Oh, okay.

[00:31:27] Okay.

[00:31:27] And we'll make some sort of window where it's like, Hey, go to the website.

[00:31:30] Or a special link or something.

[00:31:31] We'll put in.

[00:31:32] Holy culture promo code.

[00:31:33] That's exactly right.

[00:31:34] Yeah.

[00:31:34] Okay.

[00:31:34] That'd be awesome.

[00:31:35] We can put that in the show notes.

[00:31:36] I think that'd be great, man.

[00:31:38] And here's my thought is just go take this test.

[00:31:40] Right.

[00:31:40] Right.

[00:31:40] There are 25 questions and this 25 question, it's, it's not calculus.

[00:31:46] It's more like algebra because to take things that are profound and keep them simple is what I want to do.

[00:31:52] Right.

[00:31:52] Let's keep this simple.

[00:31:53] You know, let's ask you questions about how real do you feel.

[00:31:56] Yeah.

[00:31:57] With doing good at work.

[00:31:59] Yeah.

[00:32:00] Right.

[00:32:00] How real do you feel that you're serving your bride or your spouse?

[00:32:03] How real do you feel that you're doing what you believe or what, what God's called you to do as a parent, you know, and let's gauge that one to five.

[00:32:11] Let's tally that up and let's look at a score.

[00:32:13] Then what'll happen is you'll get a framework.

[00:32:16] So you hit the enter button.

[00:32:17] You finished your assessment.

[00:32:19] You're going to get a framework of suggestions based on what score you received.

[00:32:24] Right.

[00:32:25] And then I would say, all right, now wait 14 days, wait, seven days, wait an amount of time.

[00:32:31] Now we've just planted these, these frameworks.

[00:32:34] They're not, they're not like pro sports drills.

[00:32:37] They're just trying to get you to look at what's in front of you differently.

[00:32:41] Right.

[00:32:41] You look at it differently.

[00:32:43] Come back to this test 14 days later, whatever amount of time, see how you fare.

[00:32:47] See how every day becomes different.

[00:32:50] Yeah.

[00:32:50] When all of a sudden I always say it's the dog that should wag the tail, not the tail that should wag the dog.

[00:32:58] And a lot of us are tails being wagged by the dog.

[00:33:00] Mm hmm.

[00:33:01] Mm hmm.

[00:33:01] You know, it's going to be interesting to me.

[00:33:03] I can't wait to see this come out.

[00:33:05] Uh, cause it sounds like something, 25 questions on one hand, you may say, may only take you 10 minutes, but it could take you actually a couple hours.

[00:33:12] Depending on how you think through these questions, you know, um, I remember going through training when I was an executive coach, when I wanted to be an executive coach.

[00:33:20] And I, I would, I did executive coaching for two years when I left corporate while we were building up the nonprofit.

[00:33:25] And one of the things in training that was so interesting to me was this acronym.

[00:33:29] Wait, why am I talking?

[00:33:31] Mm hmm.

[00:33:32] Right.

[00:33:33] Because the idea is you should really get the client talking and unveiling.

[00:33:37] And the closer you can get to take a real getting the client to take a real look in the mirror, the better you are in doing your job.

[00:33:43] I mean, that's really it.

[00:33:44] Right.

[00:33:45] A lot of times in executive coaching, the most powerful words are keep going.

[00:33:49] Right.

[00:33:50] Tell me more.

[00:33:50] Right.

[00:33:51] Tell me more.

[00:33:52] Keep going.

[00:33:52] And actually, and you're heading in the right direction, do more of it.

[00:33:55] Right.

[00:33:55] Et cetera.

[00:33:56] One of the things that was interesting to me as a tool is this thing called the wheel.

[00:34:01] Okay.

[00:34:02] And the wheel simply was Michael having the client draw out the things that were important in life to them as spokes on the wheel.

[00:34:11] Yes.

[00:34:11] I remember.

[00:34:12] You remember this.

[00:34:12] Okay.

[00:34:13] Right.

[00:34:15] And asking them to put a number on it to see if the wheel was in balance.

[00:34:19] And you wouldn't believe how long that could take for some folks.

[00:34:23] Right.

[00:34:23] They'd go, they go help.

[00:34:24] Yes.

[00:34:25] I work out.

[00:34:25] That's a 10.

[00:34:26] Uh, uh, uh, finance.

[00:34:28] Yes.

[00:34:28] I'm doing this.

[00:34:29] I'm doing that and doing that.

[00:34:30] And they get the family.

[00:34:33] Your wheel just broke.

[00:34:34] Right.

[00:34:35] That's probably a seven.

[00:34:37] Mm hmm.

[00:34:38] And then they get to, um, they said taking care of their parents was important.

[00:34:42] Then they get to, um, personal hobbies, which you need to have and so on and so forth.

[00:34:47] And then you put the wheel in front of them and you look at the imbalance.

[00:34:50] And if that wheel were to roll, you'd be broke.

[00:34:53] Right.

[00:34:54] I think this may have a similar effect of having people go through that death of thinking about what's important to them and actually putting a score on it or however that you're out.

[00:35:05] You know, you're scoring a metric will work.

[00:35:07] I think it's going to be really interesting, man.

[00:35:08] Man.

[00:35:09] I love that parallel because in effect that that is what this is.

[00:35:12] Yeah.

[00:35:12] In effect, they're similar.

[00:35:14] And I remember I, I was a corporate coach too.

[00:35:17] Yes.

[00:35:17] So you've been, so I've done the wheels.

[00:35:19] I've done the wheels.

[00:35:20] I know what you're talking about.

[00:35:21] Yeah.

[00:35:21] That is in essence what this is.

[00:35:23] Yeah.

[00:35:24] Uh, and in the same spirit of if you're honest and to your point of, you know, it could take you 10 minutes.

[00:35:30] It could take you two hours.

[00:35:31] If you're honest with yourself and you really think this through what you put in is what you will get out.

[00:35:38] Yes.

[00:35:38] Yes, indeed.

[00:35:39] This, this is an investment.

[00:35:40] So when you think about the future of financial services or financial advisor, whatever level that you want to talk about this, what do you think is going to happen in the next three to five years?

[00:35:50] What do you, what do you see?

[00:35:52] Hmm.

[00:35:53] Well, I'll answer it in two ways.

[00:35:55] Uh, regarding financial services, I think humans will always, the, the most, hmm, the, the, the most powerful way you can honor a person in love is to listen to them.

[00:36:08] And I'm watching, uh, AI, I'm watching all these programs and digitist digitization is real.

[00:36:16] Yes.

[00:36:16] Right.

[00:36:16] There will be an extraordinary amount of wealth management taken over by bot something.

[00:36:23] Yes.

[00:36:23] I mean, it's just common sense.

[00:36:25] I'm not some fortune teller.

[00:36:27] It's right here, right now.

[00:36:28] Yeah.

[00:36:28] Absolutely.

[00:36:29] Um, but humans will require humans.

[00:36:32] Mm hmm.

[00:36:33] It's just the way it is, especially when it comes to your money.

[00:36:36] Mm hmm.

[00:36:37] Right.

[00:36:37] Similarly, same as such in the medicine and all fields, we can replace humans with a lot of, of digitization, but humans really won't allow that.

[00:36:48] Yeah.

[00:36:49] Right.

[00:36:49] Think about how many times you call in and they're like, press one for this and press five.

[00:36:53] Right.

[00:36:53] How many of you honestly said, stop it.

[00:36:55] I need a human.

[00:36:56] Right.

[00:36:56] I mean, I know I have, I do it weekly.

[00:36:59] Yes.

[00:36:59] Stop.

[00:36:59] I need a human.

[00:37:00] Um, where do I think wealth management?

[00:37:03] I think there will be a portion that's digitized.

[00:37:05] I think there will be a portion of the, the people who take these points seriously of how important active listening is of how important it is to serve before you serve yourself.

[00:37:17] Yes.

[00:37:17] They'll survive.

[00:37:18] Yeah.

[00:37:18] Everyone else will be digitized.

[00:37:21] Right.

[00:37:21] And that's speaking kind of business to business on the client side.

[00:37:24] I think, I think clients will require, uh, a, a person who listens to them and who actually respects them.

[00:37:32] Yeah.

[00:37:32] Um, and provides value.

[00:37:34] That's the biggest thing.

[00:37:35] Like, I, look, I could like, yeah, you could take me to the proverbial baseball game per year, but if you don't provide value, I'm not rolling with you.

[00:37:43] Yeah.

[00:37:43] Right.

[00:37:43] Yeah.

[00:37:44] That's fair.

[00:37:45] All right.

[00:37:45] So as we wrap up, if you had it your way two years from now, what will you have seen as a result of this book and this effort?

[00:37:54] And you fulfilling your, you walking in your, I don't want to say fulfilling cause I don't know if we ever fulfill it, but you walking in your calling.

[00:38:00] You know, James, if we can provide a pathway for people who are interested, people who, who want this to be comfortable in their skin and to start assessing their environments and empower them, take the leap of faith.

[00:38:17] Yes.

[00:38:18] This thing isn't feeding your soul.

[00:38:19] Well, let's make a framework to formally.

[00:38:23] It's not feeding my soul because one, two, three, four.

[00:38:27] Yes.

[00:38:27] And you know what?

[00:38:28] For one, two, three, four, I'm going to do one, two, three, four and get my power back.

[00:38:35] Yeah.

[00:38:35] Yeah.

[00:38:35] Because so many of us are limping through the day with no energy, with no fulfillment, with no actual growth.

[00:38:44] Yeah.

[00:38:44] I don't believe that's what God intended for any of us.

[00:38:48] Yeah.

[00:38:49] And we get so lost with the robe of our patterns.

[00:38:52] I got to pay these bills.

[00:38:54] Well, I'll just get, you know, I'm doing good on my numbers for the quarter.

[00:38:58] I'll start looking next quarter.

[00:38:59] And we just become subservient to walking around not fulfilled and with no energy.

[00:39:06] And a lot of us are uncomfortable in our skin because of that.

[00:39:09] And that comfort, I think, is the Holy Spirit, right?

[00:39:12] I think when you can walk around and know that what you're doing with right now, not yesterday, not tomorrow, right now, if you are being used the way you feel called within that moment, your happy factor is done.

[00:39:27] Yeah.

[00:39:27] You don't even have to do all the stuff that people do with their yoga and this and that.

[00:39:32] You know, if it starts with, am I happy today right now?

[00:39:36] Right.

[00:39:36] And so my hope is that people get comfortable in their skin, that they get curious to have these conversations.

[00:39:43] This isn't this book and these tests, this isn't some program.

[00:39:46] This isn't some like seminar.

[00:39:48] This is like, Hey, just think differently.

[00:39:51] Talk to yourself differently.

[00:39:52] Be honest.

[00:39:53] Right.

[00:39:53] And start assessing, look at your world through your authentic eyes and ask yourself, is this where I should be?

[00:40:00] That's good.

[00:40:01] And, you know, with the tools you're dropping to go alongside this, this is going to be great.

[00:40:05] Hey, listen, people, I need you to pick up Authenticity Deficit by my good friend and brother, Michael E. Holden.

[00:40:12] And then check the show notes because we'll have the link to the Authenticity Quotient and you will be able to use a holy culture promo code, we believe.

[00:40:22] Yes.

[00:40:22] And be able to do it free for a limited time.

[00:40:24] So please pick up the book and be ready to go do your Authenticity Quotient work.

[00:40:29] James, I am just so humbled by you, brother.

[00:40:32] Oh, man.

[00:40:32] Thanks, brother.

[00:40:33] And you are a man who has answered his calling.

[00:40:35] And you know better than anyone that it ain't easy.

[00:40:38] It's not easy.

[00:40:39] But when you do it, you're comfortable in your skin and you know you're making the best use out of your time.

[00:40:45] And just time with you yesterday, time with you now.

[00:40:48] I'm just so thankful.

[00:40:49] Thank you, brother.

[00:40:49] I love you, man.

[00:40:50] Thanks for coming.

[00:40:51] Love you too, brother.

[00:40:52] Thank you.

[00:40:52] Thank you for tuning in to another episode of The Coiling Solution.

[00:40:55] I hope you enjoyed this insightful episode with Michael Holden.

[00:40:59] We hope his perspectives on authenticity have given you some valuable food for thought.

[00:41:04] And I hope you consider the Authenticity Quotient once he unleashes that.

[00:41:09] If you have enjoyed the conversation or have questions, we'd love to hear from you.

[00:41:14] Please feel free to share your feedback with me, your thoughts, your ideas, all that.

[00:41:18] JamesRousseau at HolyCulture.net.

[00:41:19] That's James R-O-S-S-E-A-U at HolyCulture.net.

[00:41:24] When you ask questions, provide feedback, et cetera, it's useful for me and it's useful for the tribe.

[00:41:30] And we want to all grow together.

[00:41:32] Until next time, be informed, be empowered, be accountable.