In this episode of The Man Up Club Presents, host Celena Lena, the Youth and Program Director of the Man Up Club, leads a discussion on leadership with guests Otis Turner, a 25-year-old alumni, and Jesse Hoilien, an 18-year-old student at Northwestern University. Otis shares his journey since joining the club in 2018, emphasizing thoughtful and unbiased leadership. Jesse discusses the weight of his influence on others' significant life decisions. The episode explores the importance of empathy, critical thinking, and self-care in leadership, highlighting personal experiences and the necessity of guiding others while respecting their autonomy.
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[00:00:25] What's up y'all? This is the Man Up Club presents.
[00:00:38] And today I am your host, Selena Lina, a.k.a. Sis from Sis and Lil Bro.
[00:00:43] I am also the youth and program director of the Man Up Club.
[00:00:46] Okay. The Man Up Club is a nonprofit organization for young black males between the ages of 13 and 24.
[00:00:52] We are located in the Twin Cities, Minnesota.
[00:00:55] And if you guys want to support the Man Up Club and what we're doing, our mission to transform lives of young, beautiful black men,
[00:01:02] go ahead and go to themanupclub.org.
[00:01:05] Okay.
[00:01:05] So today we are going to talk about leadership.
[00:01:10] A wonderful, wonderful topic. Ain't that right, gentlemen?
[00:01:13] Yes, sir.
[00:01:14] Okay. So I have two guests here. One of them is Otis Turner. Otis, say what's up.
[00:01:19] How y'all doing?
[00:01:20] He is 25 years old and guess what, guys? He is a Man Up alumni member.
[00:01:26] Okay. You've been part of the Man Up Club as a member since what year?
[00:01:29] I want to say 2018-ish.
[00:01:32] 2018.
[00:01:32] Right after high school.
[00:01:34] Right after high school. That's what's up. How did you get plugged into the Man Up Club?
[00:01:39] So I have a little sister who was involved in something similar but for young ladies.
[00:01:46] And I went to their graduation ceremony.
[00:01:49] And I was just thinking like, man, why don't they have anything like this for young men?
[00:01:54] And so I went on a search with my mom and she helped me connect with Mr. Dean.
[00:01:59] And it just went from there.
[00:02:01] That's what's up.
[00:02:02] And look, we 2024.
[00:02:04] You done came back.
[00:02:05] For sure.
[00:02:06] And now the Man Up Club has a brand new clubhouse.
[00:02:10] When you were with the Man Up Club, we did not have a physical clubhouse.
[00:02:14] Not in a traditional sense.
[00:02:15] Not in a traditional sense.
[00:02:16] So it's crazy to come back to our own clubhouse where we have a culinary arts program,
[00:02:22] you know, a fitness program, our construction program, youth build, and so many other things.
[00:02:28] So that's wonderful that you were able to come back just a couple days ago and say hey to the crew.
[00:02:33] Okay.
[00:02:33] Now we can't forget about my second guest.
[00:02:36] Okay.
[00:02:37] This is Jesse Hoyleen.
[00:02:39] Did I say that right?
[00:02:40] Yes, you did.
[00:02:41] Okay.
[00:02:41] And he's 18 years old.
[00:02:42] He attends Northwestern University.
[00:02:44] And just tell a little bit about yourself, Jesse.
[00:02:48] Yeah.
[00:02:49] Yeah.
[00:02:49] I was born in Ethiopia.
[00:02:51] Moved to the USA.
[00:02:53] And been living in Minneapolis kind of ever since I was young.
[00:02:57] It's kind of a little bit.
[00:02:59] About myself.
[00:03:00] Okay.
[00:03:00] Okay.
[00:03:01] So there's a reason obviously why I brought you guys here.
[00:03:04] I mean, honestly, I see you both as leaders.
[00:03:09] Okay.
[00:03:11] But before we dive deep into this, we have to kick it off in the most traditional sense.
[00:03:18] And let's just start with a couple of quotes because that's what I love.
[00:03:21] That's what I love.
[00:03:22] You know, we live for quotes.
[00:03:24] So let's see what you guys think about these.
[00:03:27] And also, let me know if you've heard about these quotes before.
[00:03:29] Okay.
[00:03:30] So Frederick Douglass, he said, if there is no struggle, there is no progress.
[00:03:38] Do you agree with that?
[00:03:40] No struggle.
[00:03:42] If there's no struggle, there is no progress.
[00:03:44] I mean, that's logical.
[00:03:46] That's very logical.
[00:03:49] If there's no...
[00:03:51] It's almost like if there's nothing to fight for, why are you fighting?
[00:03:55] Mm-hmm.
[00:03:56] So if there's no struggle, there's no end goal to put in work for, there's nothing, there's
[00:04:03] no progress.
[00:04:04] There's nowhere to go.
[00:04:05] So that makes sense.
[00:04:07] Okay.
[00:04:07] Yeah.
[00:04:08] How do you feel about that, Jesse?
[00:04:09] I think like if there's no...
[00:04:11] Yeah.
[00:04:11] Like he said, if there's no struggle, there's no progress.
[00:04:12] I think also if there's...
[00:04:15] Yeah.
[00:04:16] If there's no struggle, there's also no regression too.
[00:04:19] I think both...
[00:04:20] It's a push and pull on both sides, right?
[00:04:22] Like you have to fight for something in order for it to happen.
[00:04:25] But on the flip side, when you fight for something, something else might happen that pushes
[00:04:29] something down rather the opposite way.
[00:04:32] But I think, yeah, that's a quote that's pretty logical.
[00:04:34] Like you said, like that's what life is, a struggle to progress, a struggle to be a better
[00:04:43] version of yourself, be a better, yeah, just more evolved.
[00:04:47] And not only was...
[00:04:49] Not only can you take this quote in a...
[00:04:53] What is it?
[00:04:54] In an outer sense?
[00:04:56] That's what I'm saying is like external, right?
[00:04:59] But what I'm saying is you can also think about this quote in a personal sense.
[00:05:04] You know, if there's no struggle, if you're not facing any struggle, then there's no progress.
[00:05:10] You know, so both of you guys and we could...
[00:05:13] We'll dive into how you guys are leaders specifically, but as the leaders that you guys are in the
[00:05:18] community, would you say that without the struggles that you've gone through, do you
[00:05:24] think that you would be a leader today?
[00:05:26] Absolutely not.
[00:05:27] Yeah, I have to agree with that.
[00:05:28] Not the best leader.
[00:05:30] I mean, there's leaders.
[00:05:32] Everyone's a leader in their own right.
[00:05:33] But are you a good leader or are you just someone who people can get behind because of the simple
[00:05:41] fact that they're too cowardly to do so?
[00:05:44] Yikes.
[00:05:45] Well, let's not say cowardly.
[00:05:47] I mean, that's pretty extreme, but they just don't want to take the accountability of being
[00:05:51] a leader of their own life.
[00:05:53] So it's easier to get behind somebody else.
[00:05:55] So it's good to hear.
[00:05:56] It's good to hear that you guys agree with Mr. Frederick Douglas.
[00:05:59] Okay.
[00:05:59] Here's another one.
[00:06:00] This particular quote is one of my favorite quotes.
[00:06:04] Of course, Michael Jordan famously said, I've missed more than 9,000 shots in my career.
[00:06:11] And then he went on to say, I've lost almost 300 games.
[00:06:16] 26 times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed.
[00:06:21] I failed over and over and over again in my life.
[00:06:26] And that is why I succeed.
[00:06:29] I just love that quote because, yeah, you miss 100% of the shots that you don't take.
[00:06:36] For sure.
[00:06:37] You know what I'm saying?
[00:06:38] I mean, I know it's cheesy, guys, but it's actual truth, you know?
[00:06:42] Yeah.
[00:06:43] Yeah.
[00:06:43] So, you know, those are just some things to get us thinking.
[00:06:47] But there's also another famous saying, and I hear it all the time when it comes to leadership,
[00:06:53] but people say you can't pour out of an empty cup, you know?
[00:06:58] But do you believe that your cup always has to have something in it to fill the cups of other people?
[00:07:06] Yeah.
[00:07:07] I think to some degree, yes.
[00:07:09] I think you just realistically, like you can't drive a car on an empty tank.
[00:07:13] You just can't.
[00:07:15] And if you're not able to have enough for yourself, then you can't help others.
[00:07:19] It's kind of like the, like we were just joking about the airlines earlier, but like,
[00:07:23] kind of like the idea of airlines, right?
[00:07:25] You can't put on somebody else's mask before your mask is not put on.
[00:07:28] And so I think like in that respect, I think if you're serving out of your own capacity,
[00:07:34] your own knowledge without, you know, either A, collaborating with others,
[00:07:40] or B, like learning from other people, you're just not going to be as full and as multifaceted in your leadership.
[00:07:50] And I think like other people in the context of community, in the context of church,
[00:07:55] in the context of just like time with the Lord, I think like that's really, really crucial to your leadership.
[00:08:02] And serving out of an empty cup is recipe for disaster, recipe for leaders to mess up in a way that's detrimental to others.
[00:08:15] Like, let me put it this way.
[00:08:16] I think like leaders who serve out of an empty cup, out of an empty cup, tend to have an empty type of leadership.
[00:08:26] Like, there's just no substance.
[00:08:29] There's no, yeah, substance or like depth to the leadership.
[00:08:33] So here's the thing.
[00:08:35] And Otis, you over here, you know, saying, like you co-signing, you know.
[00:08:42] It's interesting, yeah.
[00:08:43] But here's the thing, y'all.
[00:08:45] So you're saying that you can't serve out of an empty cup, right?
[00:08:51] But here's the thing.
[00:08:53] Let's just say that you're a leader, right?
[00:08:55] You could be a big brother.
[00:08:56] That's a leader.
[00:08:57] You could be a youth worker.
[00:08:59] That's a leader.
[00:09:00] You could be a teacher.
[00:09:01] That's a leader.
[00:09:02] You could be a manager.
[00:09:03] That's a leader.
[00:09:03] You could be a single father.
[00:09:05] That's a leader, right?
[00:09:08] But life happens.
[00:09:10] Life happens.
[00:09:11] And let's just say that, you know, you're going through something crazy.
[00:09:16] You know what I'm saying?
[00:09:16] Like you lose somebody that you love and you're down bad.
[00:09:20] Or, you know, you lose your job.
[00:09:23] They deny you because you have a disability and you're considered to be a liability.
[00:09:28] So that's why they don't hire you.
[00:09:30] You know, you're struggling to pay bills.
[00:09:32] Or stuff is just going crazy.
[00:09:34] People around you, it's just all bad, right?
[00:09:37] So you're empty.
[00:09:39] You know what I'm saying?
[00:09:40] You can't.
[00:09:40] It's like it's so difficult to pour into people or to leave people because you're just down bad and you're the one that needs help.
[00:09:47] So in that situation, does that mean that you're no longer a leader at that time?
[00:09:54] So that means that you always have to have something in your cup to pour out?
[00:09:57] Well, I think that's what makes you, what makes a leader a leader too is the ability to be like a human.
[00:10:08] So usually, and that's why I was kind of saying like, okay, well, in my mind I was like, okay, what's the difference between a leader and an idol?
[00:10:15] Do you know what I mean?
[00:10:16] Because an idol doesn't have the ability to fail.
[00:10:19] You know, they're held to a certain standard to where if they do something wrong, they're just canceled.
[00:10:24] You know, they don't have the ability to be empty.
[00:10:28] And so a leader is, you know, similar, but they have the ability to fail.
[00:10:35] They have grace as a leader.
[00:10:37] Yeah.
[00:10:38] From the people that are either following them, you know, because there's people who do things that are contrary to a lot of people's ideologies,
[00:10:48] but they still are willing to follow them because they understand that they're a human.
[00:10:56] You know what I mean?
[00:10:57] So I think going back to your question as far as being empty, I don't think anyone's completely empty.
[00:11:07] Yeah.
[00:11:08] Well, I don't think any leader is completely empty, but who is pouring into them and where are they getting their source of strength or source of ideas or things of that nature from as to why they can still lead?
[00:11:22] Like, where is that going?
[00:11:25] Yeah.
[00:11:26] Yeah.
[00:11:26] And I would also say, like, a huge proponent, especially in my life, where in terms of when I've been leading and I've felt empty or felt, like, drained in a lot of sense is, like, like you said, like, where am I getting my energy from?
[00:11:42] Like, like, I don't know.
[00:12:09] It's a human thing to need rest, right?
[00:12:11] They say, like, you age when you don't sleep.
[00:12:14] Like, you just get tired, right?
[00:12:15] You, like, you're counting down your days when you don't sleep.
[00:12:21] And I think, like, yeah, rest is important as a leader because once you hit the empty light, you need to, like, take time to rest.
[00:12:28] Yeah, I like that.
[00:12:30] We're talking about leadership.
[00:12:32] I like what you said, Otis, when you were saying that, you know, you don't think that anyone is empty.
[00:12:40] You don't think that anyone is empty.
[00:12:42] Everyone has something that they can give or some wisdom they can provide.
[00:12:51] Maybe that's how I interpreted that, you know, like, even though you're going through the hardest struggle, like, you still have something in you that people can take for themselves on a positive note.
[00:13:01] So we're definitely going to get into it.
[00:13:04] And in our next segment, we're going to get into your personal stories as leaders, okay?
[00:13:10] This is Holy Culture Radio with The Man Up Club Presents.
[00:13:13] All right, guys, we are back with Otis and Jesse.
[00:13:16] We're talking about leadership.
[00:13:18] Let's dive a little bit deeper into your personal leadership stories.
[00:13:22] You know, you're saying all these things about leadership, but the people got to know, like, what is it that y'all doing or how y'all going to be talking about this?
[00:13:29] But who is you, though?
[00:13:30] Okay.
[00:13:32] So, okay.
[00:13:35] Jesse, let's start with you first.
[00:13:37] How do you know that you're a leader?
[00:13:40] Oh, that's a great question.
[00:13:43] I think in the sense that, like, I make decisions that carry weight in a lot of things.
[00:13:52] I also just tend to have that type of role where it's like people go to me for advice or what I say has carried some weight.
[00:14:02] And I say that cautiously because, I mean, yeah, I don't know.
[00:14:06] It's just kind of weird.
[00:14:08] Give an example.
[00:14:09] So you say people will be going to you for advice.
[00:14:11] Is that your friends?
[00:14:12] Is that family?
[00:14:13] Is that pretty much everybody?
[00:14:14] Yeah, it's a lot of people.
[00:14:15] I think friends, family.
[00:14:17] Yeah, friends and family mostly.
[00:14:19] I guess those are, like, the two categories of life.
[00:14:22] What's some stuff that people be asking you?
[00:14:24] Should I get a divorce or not?
[00:14:25] That's crazy.
[00:14:27] I'm so serious.
[00:14:28] What?
[00:14:29] I mean, that is a weighty topic.
[00:14:32] I was not ready for that.
[00:14:33] Yeah.
[00:14:35] What?
[00:14:35] I was not ready for that.
[00:14:37] That's actually crazy.
[00:14:38] How are you?
[00:14:38] I would take a leader.
[00:14:39] You 18, ain't you?
[00:14:40] Yeah.
[00:14:41] How is somebody going to ask an 18-year-old should I get a divorce or not?
[00:14:44] I mean, yeah.
[00:14:48] That's crazy.
[00:14:49] Okay.
[00:14:49] Okay.
[00:14:50] But, you know, like, things from that, like, that big of a nature to, like, yo, should I,
[00:14:55] like, or how do you view this topic?
[00:14:57] What would you do in this situation?
[00:15:00] I'm being very general now because I just basically said something very specific.
[00:15:04] Okay.
[00:15:05] Okay.
[00:15:05] Yeah.
[00:15:05] I think, like, just anything from big to small.
[00:15:07] I think, like, as a leader, like, the range of, like, domain in sense of, like, how your
[00:15:13] influence on others should range from big to small.
[00:15:16] Mm-hmm.
[00:15:17] Mm-hmm.
[00:15:17] I think if you're a leader and it's just specifically, like, just big decisions, I feel like that's
[00:15:21] really hard for people to personify you or see you as a human.
[00:15:25] Mm-hmm.
[00:15:26] Let me say this.
[00:15:27] You know what I love about Jesse's answer?
[00:15:29] I love that he didn't even say a title.
[00:15:32] You realize that?
[00:15:33] He didn't say a title.
[00:15:35] He just talked about the influence that he has on other people.
[00:15:38] Mm-hmm.
[00:15:39] Okay.
[00:15:39] Light bulb.
[00:15:41] Otis, before you answer this, that's not going to, I'm not discouraging you from saying a title.
[00:15:46] You could say, like, this is a space for you to be proud.
[00:15:49] Okay?
[00:15:50] Okay.
[00:15:50] Proud.
[00:15:51] Okay.
[00:15:51] Like, brag on yourself a little bit.
[00:15:53] So, yeah.
[00:15:54] How do you know that you're a leader?
[00:15:55] Um, I can agree with Jesse.
[00:15:59] Just, like, when people put you there is when you become a leader.
[00:16:04] Um, oftentimes a leader doesn't want to be a leader.
[00:16:09] All right.
[00:16:09] And people don't make the best decisions.
[00:16:13] Mm-hmm.
[00:16:13] Or they don't trust themselves with the decisions that they have already made.
[00:16:16] And so they want a third party to come and help them make a decision.
[00:16:21] Or they want someone's opinion.
[00:16:24] Yeah.
[00:16:25] And they typically want someone who is humble or who doesn't make a lot of hasty, instant decisions.
[00:16:36] Mm-hmm.
[00:16:36] They want someone who can think and process the whole picture.
[00:16:41] And that typically is me.
[00:16:43] Okay.
[00:16:44] That's fire.
[00:16:45] That's a fire ending.
[00:16:46] Yeah, I got you.
[00:16:47] Uh, Otis, are you, would you say that, um, you're a unbiased, uh, person?
[00:16:54] I try to be as most, I try to be.
[00:16:57] Yeah, I mean, obviously everyone has biases.
[00:17:00] But, like, would you say that, you know, people, when they bring things to you, you can, you're the person that can look at something and it's not weighted on one side just because you're their friend or whatever.
[00:17:09] But it's like, you know.
[00:17:10] Yeah.
[00:17:11] Usually when people come to me, I ask them a question with their question.
[00:17:15] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:15] So, for example, they be like, hey, Otis, what do you think about X, Y, Z?
[00:17:19] And I'd be like, do you want me to be honest with you or do you want me to listen to you?
[00:17:22] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:23] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:23] And depending on their answer is when I will be a leader.
[00:17:27] So, if they want me to listen to them, I will be a friend.
[00:17:31] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:31] And if they want me to be a leader or if they want an honest opinion, I will be unbiased as I possibly can and give them a range of ideas or a range of perspectives so that they can make a general personalized decision.
[00:17:47] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:48] Come on, Otis.
[00:17:49] Okay, because, okay, this is the thing.
[00:17:52] I love that answer because leaders, great, I believe that great leaders, they know how to assess a situation and adapt to that situation.
[00:18:06] You know, they know how to assess an issue, you know, assess a state of mind that somebody's in and respond accordingly.
[00:18:16] Right?
[00:18:17] Okay, so let me be specific, y'all.
[00:18:18] So, like, for example, let's just say me and Otis are friends.
[00:18:22] Okay, let's just say we're besties.
[00:18:24] Mm-hmm.
[00:18:25] And I'm going through a horrible breakup with my man.
[00:18:30] And, you know, I'm in a very emotional state.
[00:18:35] But the guy that broke my heart, he was, you know, emotionally abusive to me.
[00:18:40] Oh, wow.
[00:18:46] Right.
[00:18:47] And, you know, there was more than that.
[00:18:50] So it's like, if I go to Otis, I'm like, Otis, like, I don't know if I should forget.
[00:18:54] Like, he broke up with me and stuff.
[00:18:55] But now, and then he takes me back.
[00:18:56] He wanted me to get together with him.
[00:18:58] Like, I don't know what I should do.
[00:19:00] It's like, from the answer you gave me, I'm thinking like, okay, maybe you would talk to me from two different perspectives.
[00:19:08] Like, okay, do you want me to tell you the truth about your situation?
[00:19:11] The reality.
[00:19:12] And what you need to do?
[00:19:14] Or.
[00:19:15] And I wouldn't even say need.
[00:19:16] I would say should.
[00:19:17] Should.
[00:19:18] Or what you could do.
[00:19:20] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:20] Because I don't, as a leader, you don't want to tell people what they're going to do.
[00:19:23] That's good.
[00:19:24] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:24] You want to give them an option so that they feel like it was their decision.
[00:19:28] That's a little mind thing for you.
[00:19:30] But, yeah, to go back to your possible solution, it'll be like, well, what you could do is X, Y, Z.
[00:19:39] And then it'll be like, okay, well, what do you really want to do?
[00:19:43] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:44] What is your heart telling you to do?
[00:19:46] And what is the logical aspect of that?
[00:19:49] So you like to make people think.
[00:19:51] You have to make people think.
[00:19:52] Mm-hmm.
[00:19:52] That's good, bro.
[00:19:53] Because if you don't make them think, you have to think.
[00:19:57] And as the leader, I'm not here to think for you.
[00:20:00] I'm here to propose an option for you to make your decision.
[00:20:04] Because I'm not here to make you.
[00:20:07] I'm not here for you.
[00:20:08] I'm not here to live your life for you.
[00:20:10] Okay.
[00:20:10] So here's the thing, though.
[00:20:12] I'm going to play like, quote, unquote, the devil's advocate.
[00:20:15] Mm-hmm.
[00:20:15] Because I like your answer.
[00:20:17] Like, I make people think.
[00:20:18] And I believe that good leaders do that.
[00:20:19] But there's also another side to leadership, which is, okay, a lot of people think, you
[00:20:24] know, being a leader is being able to make decisions for other people.
[00:20:29] For sure.
[00:20:30] You know what I'm saying?
[00:20:31] Um, telling people what to do.
[00:20:33] Showing people the right way and encouraging them to go that way.
[00:20:37] Mm-hmm.
[00:20:37] You know?
[00:20:38] Because a lot of times there's people who are not in the right mind to make a good decision.
[00:20:43] You know what I'm saying?
[00:20:44] Mm-hmm.
[00:20:45] And there's a ton of situations where that is true.
[00:20:49] That's legit.
[00:20:50] So how do you...
[00:20:52] Is it a balance for you?
[00:20:54] It has to be a balance, you know, for everything.
[00:20:56] Um, I work with kids, so there always has to be a level of dominance, I guess you could say.
[00:21:05] Or...
[00:21:05] Authority is a better word, that you have to assert, um, for people to respect your leadership.
[00:21:12] Right.
[00:21:13] Um, but like I said, when you tell people what to do, they're typically going to do the opposite.
[00:21:19] Mm-hmm.
[00:21:20] So if I tell you what to do, especially when it's a heart emotion, like, I really feel this
[00:21:26] in my heart of hearts.
[00:21:27] This is what I want to do.
[00:21:28] Like, if I tell you that's not, that's not logical.
[00:21:31] That's not the best thing to do in a situation.
[00:21:33] They're going to be like, you know what, I hear you, but...
[00:21:36] Yeah.
[00:21:37] And we don't need any buts.
[00:21:38] We need an answer.
[00:21:41] So I'm not going to tell you what to do because I've dealt with enough people to realize that
[00:21:46] majority of people will say, I hear you, but...
[00:21:50] So I just give you an option, and what you do with that is up to you.
[00:21:53] Yeah.
[00:21:54] But I've done my job as the leader to propose a solution, and if you take my solution,
[00:21:59] you know where to come back for another one.
[00:22:01] Mm-hmm.
[00:22:02] Hmm.
[00:22:04] Jesse, fill in this sentence.
[00:22:08] I'm proud of myself for.
[00:22:12] Because I think it is so important for leaders to build themselves up.
[00:22:18] Okay?
[00:22:19] Sure.
[00:22:20] Like, it could be anything.
[00:22:22] It could be anything.
[00:22:23] Just thinking about your life, whatever.
[00:22:26] Yeah, I guess I've never asked myself that question.
[00:22:28] Which is, that's a good thing.
[00:22:30] Yeah.
[00:22:30] I'm proud of myself for.
[00:22:32] And you can even just say it back, too.
[00:22:34] You ain't got to fool in it.
[00:22:35] You can say it back.
[00:22:35] Yeah, I guess I'm proud of myself for...
[00:22:37] Not, uh-uh, uh-uh.
[00:22:38] Not I guess I'm proud of myself for.
[00:22:41] I don't...
[00:22:41] All right.
[00:22:42] I'm proud of myself for in Affirmative.
[00:22:44] I'm proud of myself for loving well.
[00:22:47] Mm-hmm.
[00:22:47] I think...
[00:22:48] And I guess I'll fill that in a little bit.
[00:22:50] But I think, like what Otis was saying, like, part of love is knowing when to, like,
[00:22:57] kind of let go and take off your hands off a situation and be objective.
[00:23:03] Um...
[00:23:03] I think there's also a part of being a leader that is important in the fact that, like,
[00:23:09] you have to meet someone where they're at, right?
[00:23:11] Mm-hmm.
[00:23:12] Um...
[00:23:12] A lot of times, like, to push back slightly on what Otis was saying, like, and agreeing,
[00:23:16] but, like, I think part of a leader is also knowing when to meet someone where they're at.
[00:23:20] And that may not be...
[00:23:21] Mm-hmm.
[00:23:23] Um...
[00:23:23] May not be giving them a situation saying it's up to you to decide, though it could be.
[00:23:28] Mm-hmm.
[00:23:29] I think also sometimes it's walking with them through their decision.
[00:23:33] Mm-hmm.
[00:23:33] I like that.
[00:23:34] That's a good one.
[00:23:35] I like that.
[00:23:35] Because I think...
[00:23:36] Or walking them through a decision that you were like, yeah, I think this would be the
[00:23:40] best idea for you.
[00:23:42] Like, for instance, like, um...
[00:23:44] This is a very simple example, but, uh...
[00:23:47] Like, there's kids that I teach, right, who...
[00:23:50] Um...
[00:23:51] This summer who were like, yo, I have a situation where I think, like, I could do this, and I
[00:23:58] want to do this, but you say this would probably be detrimental to you, so how do I walk in
[00:24:03] the way that's not detrimental?
[00:24:04] You know what I mean?
[00:24:05] Mm-hmm.
[00:24:05] And I think, like, especially for me, I'm a Christian, so I believe that, like, with leadership,
[00:24:10] with Christian leadership, it's so much weightier in the sense of, like, walking with someone
[00:24:15] through a decision.
[00:24:16] Um...
[00:24:17] I think I see a lot of leaders who just walk with people just to...
[00:24:21] Or who just give someone a solution and just zip out as quickly as possible.
[00:24:24] Yeah.
[00:24:25] And I think that is a form of leadership, kind of, like, leaving it up to them.
[00:24:30] But a lot of times, people aren't emotionally ready for that.
[00:24:33] Right.
[00:24:34] It's, like, kind of like the difference between college and high school, right?
[00:24:36] People are...
[00:24:37] Teachers are holding your hand in high school and elementary school, like, hey, are you
[00:24:40] getting the assignment done?
[00:24:41] And, hey, lock in.
[00:24:42] Right?
[00:24:43] And it's like, nah, I think we need people to actually sometimes meet people where they're
[00:24:47] at in that sense.
[00:24:48] Mm-hmm.
[00:24:48] That's good.
[00:24:49] Yeah, I like that, Jesse.
[00:24:50] Otis, are you going to say something?
[00:24:51] No.
[00:24:52] Okay, okay.
[00:24:53] I like that.
[00:24:53] I like that, too.
[00:24:56] What we're going to dive deep into is leadership and spirituality.
[00:24:59] That was a great...
[00:25:01] That was a great thing that you brought up, Jesse, because, you know, you said you're
[00:25:05] a Christian.
[00:25:05] Otis, are you a Christian?
[00:25:06] I am.
[00:25:07] Okay.
[00:25:08] Okay, so we can speak on that perspective then.
[00:25:11] So we'll go ahead and dive into leadership and spirituality.
[00:25:16] If you guys are Christians out there, even if you're not, you know, we can take a look
[00:25:20] into leadership and spirituality.
[00:25:22] All right, guys, we are back with The Man Up Club Presents.
[00:25:24] We're talking to Jesse and Otis about leadership.
[00:25:26] And we were just getting into leadership and spirituality because Jesse had brought that up.
[00:25:32] So, Jesse, what are your thoughts about that last question I asked you when I asked you
[00:25:37] to fill in the sentence, I'm proud of myself for?
[00:25:41] And then you said loving myself?
[00:25:43] I think that's what you said, right?
[00:25:43] No, I said, like, loving well.
[00:25:45] Okay, loving well.
[00:25:46] But yeah.
[00:25:47] I don't know.
[00:25:48] I think, like, my gut instinct is kind of like, ugh.
[00:25:51] I don't like the word proud because I think, like, especially within the Christian context
[00:25:56] and the church context, like, we talk about proud as, like, something that's, like, something
[00:26:02] to kind of a disease.
[00:26:04] Like, you don't want that.
[00:26:05] Mm-hmm.
[00:26:06] And I think, like, good leaders are able to recognize places where they find they're proud.
[00:26:12] He can't even say it, y'all.
[00:26:15] Because it's hard, right?
[00:26:15] As a Christian, he can't even say it.
[00:26:17] That's crazy.
[00:26:18] I think, like, because it's really such a slippery slope.
[00:26:19] And I think because it's a slippery slope, people just cut it off.
[00:26:23] Mm-hmm.
[00:26:24] And I think that maybe people, like, majority of people, I think a lot of people cut it
[00:26:27] off prematurely, right?
[00:26:29] Like, cut off the idea of, yeah, so this is going to be, this is seeping into arrogance
[00:26:34] and pride, and that's negative.
[00:26:36] And we don't want that.
[00:26:36] We can't possibly have that in our churches where leaders are proud of themselves.
[00:26:39] And I think there's a difference between being proud of yourself just for yourself's sake
[00:26:43] but being proud of yourself because you've seen how far you came and who's brought you.
[00:26:48] You know what I mean?
[00:26:50] Otis, what you thinking about, you know, this idea of being proud as a leader?
[00:26:56] I mean, when you talk about leadership, you're talking about people following somebody or
[00:27:03] following an idea or following a way of life, especially in this social media age.
[00:27:07] Like, there's so many people that are, we're all following each other, okay?
[00:27:12] Like, literally, we're following each other on social media, but also what we're watching
[00:27:16] on social media, it influences us.
[00:27:19] Like, you know, so what are you thinking about this whole idea of how proud of yourself you
[00:27:26] should be or what you should recognize being proud of?
[00:27:31] Um, well, living in the Kanye West era of social media, everyone is like, they want to be them.
[00:27:40] They want to be it.
[00:27:41] They want to be her.
[00:27:42] They want to be him.
[00:27:43] I'm him.
[00:27:44] I'm her.
[00:27:45] With a capital H.
[00:27:46] Yup.
[00:27:46] Um, and I mean, there's a level of healthy confidence and then there's arrogance.
[00:27:55] Hmm.
[00:27:56] And the difference is being able to recognize that you're gone too, you've gone too far.
[00:28:02] Yeah.
[00:28:02] Or you're overstepping or you're not allowing someone else the ability to make a choice or,
[00:28:10] you know, it's, it's, it's a thin line between arrogance and confidence.
[00:28:14] Um, and you can kind of tell which is which by just people's actions.
[00:28:19] Um, and, you know, just going back to the, the church aspect of it, um, you know, pride
[00:28:26] is the devil, you know, like that J. Cole song.
[00:28:30] Um, but it's like, well, I'm proud of you.
[00:28:34] Yeah.
[00:28:35] What does that mean?
[00:28:36] If you say, I'm proud of you because a lot of people hear that or not a lot of people
[00:28:41] hear that.
[00:28:41] Right.
[00:28:41] Right.
[00:28:42] So when they do hear it, especially as, you know, Christians, it's like, why are you, what
[00:28:47] are you, what are you saying?
[00:28:49] Yeah.
[00:28:50] Well, if you substitute the word proud for confident, it will be like, I'm confident in
[00:28:57] your abilities.
[00:28:58] So it's almost, it's, it's, it's one of those words you have to not be careful with, but just
[00:29:04] understand what you're saying.
[00:29:06] Okay.
[00:29:06] And why you're saying it.
[00:29:07] Do you think that the word proud is bad or negative?
[00:29:12] No.
[00:29:13] Okay.
[00:29:13] It's just too much of anything is not good for you.
[00:29:16] That's right.
[00:29:16] So if you have too much pride, you're arrogant.
[00:29:20] If you have nothing at all, you have low self-esteem.
[00:29:22] That's right.
[00:29:23] And I think that's a form of pride too.
[00:29:24] I think low self, like.
[00:29:26] It is.
[00:29:26] In the sense of like, when we are, don't, when we look at ourselves, I think pride is
[00:29:31] essentially in a stripped down definition is, and arrogance is looking at yourself.
[00:29:35] Mm-hmm.
[00:29:36] Just plain out simple.
[00:29:38] So when you're arrogant, you're looking at yourself too much as a puffed up sense.
[00:29:41] But then also pride can be, yo, no one loves me, dog.
[00:29:45] Mm-hmm.
[00:29:46] And like, you look around, you have a supporting group of people.
[00:29:48] Right.
[00:29:49] And you're just constantly looking inward to yourself to find something.
[00:29:52] So like, I agree with you a hundred percent that way.
[00:29:55] Wow.
[00:29:55] That's very interesting.
[00:29:56] I have, I, you know, I never really thought about a low self-esteem as a form of pride.
[00:30:05] Yeah.
[00:30:05] Because like, going back to the Christian, you know, ideology, like, do you know who's
[00:30:10] in you?
[00:30:11] Yikes.
[00:30:12] Like, if we're going, if we're talking biblically, greater is he who is in me than he who is in
[00:30:16] the world.
[00:30:17] Mm-hmm.
[00:30:17] Also.
[00:30:19] Walk in, knowing that, walk in that belief.
[00:30:22] Yeah.
[00:30:22] And you will have something, you know, going back to the, well, I don't have enough to be
[00:30:27] a leader or I don't have enough to pour into somebody else.
[00:30:29] Mm-hmm.
[00:30:29] I mean, that, your influence is not for you.
[00:30:33] Yeah.
[00:30:33] It's for someone else who's similar.
[00:30:36] We're going through a similar situation that you have possibly overcame already and you
[00:30:43] need to pass it on.
[00:30:44] Yeah.
[00:30:44] I love this because, you know, I also, as a Christian myself, I've also had the problem
[00:30:52] with a lot of Christians being deathly afraid of accepting compliments.
[00:30:58] Mm-hmm.
[00:30:58] You know?
[00:30:58] And if you're a leader, it's just like, okay, you gotta be, like you said, like, you gotta
[00:31:04] be proud of yourself.
[00:31:05] You gotta know who you are.
[00:31:06] You gotta know whose you are.
[00:31:08] You know what I'm saying?
[00:31:08] And it's like affirming yourself.
[00:31:11] Like, okay, I am the king's daughter.
[00:31:13] Yeah.
[00:31:13] You know, for you guys, I am the king's sons.
[00:31:15] You know, like, I am the head and not the tail.
[00:31:19] You know, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
[00:31:24] And, you know, God made us with these hands, with this mouth.
[00:31:29] Made in his image.
[00:31:30] We're made in his image.
[00:31:31] Right?
[00:31:32] Yeah.
[00:31:32] And so it's like, we need to be proud of that.
[00:31:36] Yeah.
[00:31:37] I'd like to ask a question.
[00:31:38] I know that's probably not, like, traditionally how we do this.
[00:31:40] No, go ahead.
[00:31:41] Go ahead.
[00:31:41] I think, like, because I know we talked about this a lot in previous calls, but, like, what
[00:31:47] does it look like for a leader to serve?
[00:31:50] Like, in the sense of, like, sometimes there's a lot of leaders who will be like, yo, I've
[00:31:55] been puffed up to this position, so I'm not going to serve because I don't want it to look
[00:32:00] like I'm actually, like, below, like serving is beneath me.
[00:32:04] And I've heard this quote quite a bit coming up.
[00:32:07] Like, if leadership is above you, or if serving is below you, then leadership is above you.
[00:32:13] Say that again.
[00:32:14] If leadership.
[00:32:15] If serving is below you, then leadership is above you.
[00:32:17] What do you guys think about that quote?
[00:32:18] If serving is below you, meaning.
[00:32:21] Like, you.
[00:32:21] You won't do it.
[00:32:22] It's not for you.
[00:32:23] Yeah.
[00:32:24] Then leadership is above you.
[00:32:26] Like, you can't attain it.
[00:32:26] You can't be a leader.
[00:32:27] Yeah.
[00:32:28] That makes sense.
[00:32:29] Yeah.
[00:32:29] Or it's like, if you're not willing to serve, then why do you think leadership is possibly
[00:32:34] in your purview?
[00:32:34] Yeah.
[00:32:35] Right.
[00:32:35] I agree with that.
[00:32:36] Like I was saying, like, leadership or your gifts, your talents, they're not for you.
[00:32:44] So as a leader, your job is to serve those you're leading.
[00:32:49] Yeah.
[00:32:50] You know?
[00:32:50] So if you're not willing to help those, like, what's the point of being a leader?
[00:32:56] You might as well just follow.
[00:32:57] Right.
[00:32:58] Yeah.
[00:32:58] Yeah.
[00:32:58] And there's nothing wrong with following.
[00:33:00] No, absolutely not.
[00:33:01] Let's talk about that.
[00:33:01] Let's talk about that because there's many, many leaders or people aspiring to be leaders
[00:33:07] who think leading is just about leading.
[00:33:09] No.
[00:33:10] Leading is not about leading, dog.
[00:33:12] Leading is about following the one who is the leader.
[00:33:15] Right.
[00:33:15] And just ushering people into his presence.
[00:33:17] I play at my church.
[00:33:19] And one of the things my pastor constantly says, shout out to Yoni, is leading in worship
[00:33:24] is not putting yourself on stage and saying, look at me and then look at God.
[00:33:28] Leading in worship is ushering people through the presence of God.
[00:33:31] Right.
[00:33:31] It's better to be outside the door of heaven and the throne room of God ushering people
[00:33:36] in his presence than just being anywhere else.
[00:33:38] You know what I mean?
[00:33:39] And so it's like, are we content with just being the guy who's the usher?
[00:33:42] Right.
[00:33:42] Like, and that's something that I had to ask myself in my own leadership journey, my own
[00:33:46] spiritual journey is like, am I content just being that guy?
[00:33:49] Just being the usher?
[00:33:51] Or like, and it's a heart check.
[00:33:53] It's a heart check.
[00:33:53] Right.
[00:33:54] Am I content just sitting there and just being like, hey guys, come to the presence of God.
[00:33:58] Here it is.
[00:34:00] Yeah, I think this whole conversation, this whole segment is about a heart check because
[00:34:05] you know, we're exploring when it comes to leadership and spirituality, we're exploring
[00:34:11] the thin line between cockiness and confidence, you know, arrogance and humbleness, you know,
[00:34:21] being humble.
[00:34:21] So like you said, it is a heart thing.
[00:34:25] I think that you have to know who you are in order to, you know, represent yourself.
[00:34:33] Like if I'm somebody, I know that, I know that, you know, I'm a selfless person and I
[00:34:38] show it through my actions and people's feedback to me is, is, you know, it's good as far as
[00:34:45] like, they don't think that I'm overshadowing them or, you know, then I can say, yeah, hey,
[00:34:49] I, I, I have pride in the way that I carry myself, you know, in the position that I have.
[00:34:56] Yeah.
[00:34:57] But also leaders have weaknesses.
[00:34:59] Right.
[00:35:00] Yeah.
[00:35:01] So, and, and let's, let's get into that too.
[00:35:04] And also I know you guys want to get into leadership and following.
[00:35:08] We talk about leadership, leadership, be a leader, be a leader.
[00:35:10] Everybody say be a leader.
[00:35:11] They want to be a leader, but y'all leader.
[00:35:15] Would you agree that leaders are also followers?
[00:35:17] Others, every great leader was once a follower.
[00:35:21] And that's right.
[00:35:22] Yeah.
[00:35:23] Simple.
[00:35:24] Yeah.
[00:35:24] If they're not following somebody there, I mean, if it, like, like we said, going back
[00:35:29] to the cup, right?
[00:35:30] If we're not getting poured into by other people, then what are we like?
[00:35:34] That's the definition of following somebody, right?
[00:35:36] My mentors are not just my mentors just to compliment me and hype me up.
[00:35:39] They're to pour into me and I follow them in that sense.
[00:35:42] Right.
[00:35:42] And as you have your mentors, you're pouring into other people.
[00:35:45] Exactly.
[00:35:45] So you can be simultaneously a, and I don't know if I said that right.
[00:35:50] Yeah.
[00:35:51] Yes.
[00:35:51] A leader and a follower.
[00:35:54] Yeah.
[00:35:55] Newsflash.
[00:35:55] Okay.
[00:35:56] Like being a follower is not a bad thing, y'all.
[00:35:59] Because Mr. Dean, he said it at the Man Up Club during a mandatory Man Up session.
[00:36:04] And he was talking and he said that, you know, being a follower, if you're following the right
[00:36:11] thing, that's great.
[00:36:13] And thumbs up.
[00:36:14] Right.
[00:36:15] You're following the right thing.
[00:36:16] So be a follower.
[00:36:17] Yeah.
[00:36:18] It's just to make it in more, not urban, but to more, to make it in more present speech.
[00:36:27] What does your algorithm look like?
[00:36:30] That'll tell me who you are.
[00:36:32] Yeah.
[00:36:32] So if your algorithm is like, or what does your followers look like?
[00:36:36] Are you only following one person and that person is garbage?
[00:36:40] Or are you following a multitude of people and you're getting multiple perspectives?
[00:36:46] And then when you put out something, it's fresh.
[00:36:50] Yeah.
[00:36:50] It's the same.
[00:36:52] It's the same idea.
[00:36:53] Yeah.
[00:36:53] That's why you have a following.
[00:36:55] I love that question, Otis.
[00:36:57] Like everybody who's listening right now, take a look at your social media.
[00:37:01] Open up your Instagram.
[00:37:02] Open up your Facebook.
[00:37:04] Open up Twitter.
[00:37:05] Okay.
[00:37:06] We know.
[00:37:07] Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[00:37:09] No.
[00:37:09] We're not going back that far.
[00:37:11] Okay.
[00:37:12] No, I'm just playing.
[00:37:13] But that's carbon dating.
[00:37:15] I'm just kidding.
[00:37:16] But no, like I do like that question because, and speaking of being proud, that's one thing
[00:37:21] that I actually am proud of is if you go on my Instagram, like I got two Instagrams.
[00:37:29] I got a personal Instagram, like personal blog, and then I have my artist Instagram and
[00:37:34] I have my sister, we sister, little bro Instagram.
[00:37:36] But on my personal page, when you look at my algorithm, my feed, it's like motivational
[00:37:43] quotes.
[00:37:44] It's, you know, it's of course friends and family, people that I used to know from school
[00:37:49] and stuff like that.
[00:37:50] But there's some people that I will, I'll get rid of because they, all they post is just,
[00:37:56] you know, them twerking every night or whatever.
[00:37:59] Like, and I'm not saying that to be just mental.
[00:38:01] I'm just saying that if that's your whole lifestyle though, if that's your whole lifestyle,
[00:38:04] y'all, come on now.
[00:38:05] Let's go up.
[00:38:06] Yeah.
[00:38:07] So we're going to dive into it, y'all.
[00:38:09] We're going to dive into it.
[00:38:10] We're going to dive into it.
[00:38:11] All right.
[00:38:11] We're back with Otis and Jesse.
[00:38:13] Been talking about leadership, delving into leadership and spirituality.
[00:38:17] We just left off talking about your life in a sense of an algorithm.
[00:38:24] You know, what you follow is kind of like what you're going to end up becoming.
[00:38:30] Um, so one thing that we haven't touched on that we need to touch on when talking about
[00:38:36] leadership is struggles because not everybody's perfect.
[00:38:40] Okay.
[00:38:41] I'm not perfect.
[00:38:43] Otis, you ain't perfect at all.
[00:38:44] And Jesse, you ain't perfect either.
[00:38:46] Okay.
[00:38:47] So as a leader, I want y'all to take a moment to think about a time where you have failed.
[00:38:56] Okay.
[00:38:57] You have failed.
[00:38:59] You could be an older brother and people who are listening, you could be an older sibling,
[00:39:03] but you failed as, you know, maybe you led your siblings down some path or it may be,
[00:39:08] it wasn't even that deep, but it's more so like you got them in trouble because of what you did,
[00:39:13] you know, and now you're dealing with the guilt of it.
[00:39:16] Um, anything, you know, cause, cause we, we real people out here, you know, it's like,
[00:39:22] we have to know how leaders struggle, how they failed in order to bounce back.
[00:39:27] Cause that, that's the real leadership is how do you bounce back from a situation?
[00:39:31] How do you respond to the situation?
[00:39:32] So, um, and also our struggles teach us things.
[00:39:36] So, uh, Jesse, I'll start with you.
[00:39:39] How have you honestly failed?
[00:39:42] Uh, it's crazy.
[00:39:43] Um, I'll give a very quick scenario.
[00:39:47] Um, I think with, uh, being present is the biggest thing for me as a, um, as a leader,
[00:39:55] as an extrovert, as a person who loves people.
[00:39:58] Um, I think being present has been my biggest, like failing as a leader, um, and not loving
[00:40:05] people in the moment, um, where they're at, um, is a struggle for me.
[00:40:10] And there's, there's a time when, um, I won't get too specific because it's personal for them,
[00:40:16] but like, yeah, I, someone came to me for advice and I was distracted and then they ended up doing
[00:40:24] something detrimental to themselves.
[00:40:27] And obviously one can only think like, if I had been present in that conversation, if I had put my
[00:40:34] phone down X, Y, and Z, or if I had focused on them in their, in their need, what, what could have
[00:40:40] happened?
[00:40:41] You know what I mean?
[00:40:41] And not to put pressure on myself, that's unnecessary, but I think we, I struggle with
[00:40:46] guilt, um, with, you know, not being present.
[00:40:50] And what does that, where does that put me now in places and in a place in their life?
[00:40:54] Right.
[00:40:55] And so I've been, ever since then, I've been really trying to be intentional about how,
[00:40:58] how I'm present with people.
[00:41:00] Um, a lot of things that I meet a lot of people, a lot of people.
[00:41:04] And one of the things I genuinely ask them their name, it's something that is really simple,
[00:41:10] but for me, it's really hard to know.
[00:41:12] Like, yo, what's your name?
[00:41:15] Right.
[00:41:15] And then asking them questions about themselves.
[00:41:17] I think that's, that's hard as a leader to do well, because I think a lot of leaders
[00:41:23] just talk to hear themselves talk.
[00:41:24] And that's honestly a weakness of mine.
[00:41:27] Okay.
[00:41:28] I love the vulnerability.
[00:41:29] That's real.
[00:41:30] Otis.
[00:41:33] So I'll take some of your points because I agree with them and I have similar, it's almost
[00:41:38] like, it's, it's like an oxymoron really.
[00:41:41] Like it's very hypocritical.
[00:41:44] Like being present for me is also a struggle because I can think so much in the future that
[00:41:51] I'm not present or I think about the past and how, you know, I'm always thinking about
[00:41:58] something.
[00:41:59] So it's hard to be present with certain people.
[00:42:04] Patience, being patient with like children, for example, like, why can't you just listen?
[00:42:10] Or people who like to bump their head and it's like, bro, you don't have to do that.
[00:42:17] So being present, being patient, listening is a, it's like a forgotten skill.
[00:42:24] So, um, really listening, not like hearing people, but like listening.
[00:42:30] And then, um, yeah, it's like the things that would make you not a good leader is the things
[00:42:36] I struggle with.
[00:42:38] So it's like, that's why I said like, it's not that I want to be a leader all the time,
[00:42:43] but oftentimes who is going to stand up and be a leader?
[00:42:48] It's one of those things where you're like, who wants to go to eat or who wants to go out
[00:42:55] to eat?
[00:42:55] And you're like, okay, well, where do you want to go?
[00:42:57] Where do you want to go?
[00:42:58] Where do you want to go?
[00:42:59] And they all give you different places to go.
[00:43:01] And then you take them all into consideration.
[00:43:03] You're like, well, we don't have, that's not the most for our health or like healthiest
[00:43:10] place or it's not the most, you know, good for our, um, bodies funds.
[00:43:17] Certain times.
[00:43:18] Budget family is real, bro.
[00:43:19] Yeah.
[00:43:20] So it's like, I hear you guys, but what's the best option?
[00:43:24] You guys have not given me a good option yet.
[00:43:26] So it's like, uh, we're going here.
[00:43:29] And it's not that I wanted to say that.
[00:43:31] It's like, you look around the room and no one is making a, no one's making sense.
[00:43:37] Okay.
[00:43:38] Okay.
[00:43:38] You're bringing me to something.
[00:43:39] Like leaders also have to make tough decisions.
[00:43:42] Yep.
[00:43:42] Okay.
[00:43:43] So, oh, and yapping.
[00:43:45] I'm very good at yapping.
[00:43:47] Same, bro.
[00:43:48] Yeah.
[00:43:48] Like, like he was saying, like, sometimes I just like to hear myself talk.
[00:43:52] And as a leader, you shouldn't be talking to listeners.
[00:43:56] You don't need to be talking the whole time.
[00:43:58] You know, I find it interesting that you're saying this, like, as y'all, y'all are, you're
[00:44:04] saying this weakness of yours is like listening sometimes with people.
[00:44:08] Mm-hmm.
[00:44:08] But in the beginning of this episode, you were saying, um, one of, one of the best traits
[00:44:16] of being a leader is being able to let other people make their own decisions and think it
[00:44:21] out for themselves.
[00:44:21] Mm-hmm.
[00:44:22] And what I'm drawing from just how that all came full circle is that, you know, sometimes
[00:44:28] the person that you are becoming, and if it's a leader for you, it's a leader for you,
[00:44:33] but the person that you are becoming, you're being tested with the things that you struggle
[00:44:38] with.
[00:44:39] Exactly.
[00:44:39] Exactly.
[00:44:39] Or your weaknesses.
[00:44:41] Mm-hmm.
[00:44:41] Like you just said verbatim, hey, you know, I struggle with patience.
[00:44:45] Mm-hmm.
[00:44:46] Apathy.
[00:44:47] Apathy is real, bro.
[00:44:49] Like, eh, I don't want to leave these people.
[00:44:51] They're not worth it.
[00:44:52] Explain apathy.
[00:44:53] Apathy is just not caring.
[00:44:54] Yeah.
[00:44:54] You just get to a point where you just don't care.
[00:44:57] Indifference.
[00:44:58] Very indifference.
[00:45:00] Nonchalant.
[00:45:00] Like, extreme indifference.
[00:45:03] Like, I could care if this goes up.
[00:45:05] I could care if this goes left.
[00:45:06] I could care if this goes inside out.
[00:45:09] And that's especially dangerous, dude.
[00:45:11] And it is very dangerous if you're a leader because, like I said, if you're not going to
[00:45:16] take the accountability within yourself, who's going to do it?
[00:45:20] No one's going to do it for you.
[00:45:21] Yeah.
[00:45:22] So if you're around people who struggle, like people who need you to, like, either not,
[00:45:29] I don't want to say hold their hand, but, like, just be present with them, like we were
[00:45:32] saying.
[00:45:33] Mm-hmm.
[00:45:33] You have to put that to the side.
[00:45:35] Like, you have to be present enough to be like, they need me.
[00:45:38] Mm-hmm.
[00:45:39] Yeah.
[00:45:39] I can't be thinking about myself right now.
[00:45:41] Okay.
[00:45:41] So here's the thing, guys.
[00:45:43] What keeps y'all going?
[00:45:44] I'm going to toss that ball to Jesse.
[00:45:47] What keeps you going?
[00:45:49] Like, within leadership?
[00:45:50] Like, what keeps me going?
[00:45:51] I mean, yeah, you can answer that within leadership, but you can also answer that in real life.
[00:45:56] I mean, just in everyday life.
[00:45:58] Like, you striving to work towards the goals that you have.
[00:46:00] What keeps you going?
[00:46:01] I think 100% without fail is God and his track record.
[00:46:06] I'd be remiss if I didn't say this on this podcast, but God has been too faithful to me
[00:46:10] to not have him be a reason why I keep going.
[00:46:15] Time in and time out, there's been times where I've failed tremendously, fumbled the bag,
[00:46:20] and God's been like, no, no, no.
[00:46:22] It's not about you.
[00:46:23] It's about me and what I'm doing through you.
[00:46:26] And regardless of any situation, you can point to any point in my life,
[00:46:29] and I'll say God has done remarkable things.
[00:46:32] So without a doubt, God has really done, has been somebody, has been something that has kept me going.
[00:46:39] Faith that he won't fail me.
[00:46:40] And I believe that leaders fight for purpose within themselves first and then others.
[00:46:48] And it's such a bloody fight.
[00:46:50] It is such a bloody fight to fight for purpose within yourself when you feel purposeless.
[00:46:55] Absolutely.
[00:46:56] And I have been miserable as a Christian before.
[00:47:00] And one thing that has gotten me out of it, and newsflash, you can be a miserable Christian.
[00:47:04] You can be a miserable Christian.
[00:47:05] What has gotten me out of it is Ephesians 2, 11, 10 through 11.
[00:47:11] For we are his workmanship, created for works in which he's prepared in advance for us.
[00:47:16] So not only do I have a worker, a person who is above me, creating me for something good,
[00:47:24] but it's prepared already.
[00:47:26] So meaning he saved me, not just for me to just be for myself.
[00:47:30] He set me free from sin, not just for me to go back to sin.
[00:47:33] He set me free to do the works he's prepared in advance for me to do.
[00:47:36] So now I have a purpose.
[00:47:37] Now I can't be lazy.
[00:47:39] You know what I mean?
[00:47:40] Now I can't just be apathetic.
[00:47:41] Now I actually have to lock in.
[00:47:42] You know what I mean?
[00:47:43] Right.
[00:47:44] So that keeps me going for sure.
[00:47:45] That is amazing.
[00:47:47] Oh my gosh.
[00:47:49] Come on, y'all.
[00:47:50] Come on, Pat.
[00:47:51] No, because, no, but I, like, actually, what you guys don't know about Jesse,
[00:47:56] what he told me before the podcast is that he is actually going to school for pastoral studies,
[00:48:02] you know?
[00:48:03] So come on, Casta.
[00:48:05] Okay.
[00:48:06] Get the degree first, y'all.
[00:48:08] No, don't do that.
[00:48:09] Don't listen to that.
[00:48:10] That's not true.
[00:48:11] Okay.
[00:48:11] That's what's up.
[00:48:12] Otis, what keeps you going?
[00:48:15] Hey, I don't know how I could follow that up.
[00:48:18] Man, stop it.
[00:48:19] No, like, honestly, like, that's so real.
[00:48:23] Like, you can try other things, but like you said, like, as a leader, you fight for purpose.
[00:48:29] So if you have a purpose that's just solely in yourself, I mean, what happens on those days where you don't feel like a leader?
[00:48:37] Or you feel apathetic or you've given up?
[00:48:41] It's just a real thing.
[00:48:43] Like, leaders give up too.
[00:48:44] Yeah.
[00:48:45] So it's like, what do I do on those days where I'm not enough?
[00:48:50] I mean, something else got to pour into me.
[00:48:53] Yeah.
[00:48:53] So that main thing is the word, God.
[00:48:58] Yeah.
[00:48:58] Those affirmations that come from the Bible, like, greater is he who is in me than he who is in the world.
[00:49:05] Or I'm called, you know, I'm a chosen generation.
[00:49:10] I'm a chosen priesthood, royal priesthood, you know?
[00:49:13] Yeah.
[00:49:14] I, you know, one thing that keeps me going.
[00:49:19] I recently went to a networking event in the Twin Cities, specifically in St. Paul for the Man Up Club or on behalf of the Man Up Club.
[00:49:29] And one of the things that I heard was, you know, maybe I'll butcher it, but it's this idea that you have to keep going or you should keep going because of the people that you haven't even met yet.
[00:49:47] Yeah.
[00:49:48] There are people that you haven't even met yet that will benefit and receive blessings and goodness and just everything because of what you're doing.
[00:49:57] Yeah.
[00:49:58] So keep going, y'all.
[00:49:59] Keep going.
[00:50:01] Keep going.
[00:50:01] So, oh my gosh, I hate to end this episode about leadership because this has been so good.
[00:50:07] But you guys, you know, this has been a conversation about leadership.
[00:50:12] And thanks to Otis and Jesse, we have just been chopping it up all about leadership.
[00:50:17] You have the power to be a leader.
[00:50:21] Anybody out there and everyone out there.
[00:50:24] Okay.
[00:50:25] So continue, continue to shine brightly.
[00:50:29] This has been the Man Up Club presents on Holy Culture Radio.
[00:50:33] You guys tune in with us for another episode.