In this episode, Pastor Phil, Pastah J and Rami Nashashibi, explore the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the impact of systemic issues on the Palestinian community, and the role of art and hip hop in expressing and addressing trauma. They discuss the importance of understanding the nuanced history, confronting urban segregation, and engaging with the Palestinian artistic movements. The conversation emphasizes the need for Americans to be aware of structural inequities in the region, to seek diverse perspectives, and to prioritize truth and humanity over one-sided narratives.
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[00:00:12] You're on pastor Phil. Welcome to Church on the Block, real talk about hip-hop, church and the streets with my great co-host Pastor J and Rockboy on Holy Culture Radio, Sears XM
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[00:00:27] Yo, welcome back to Church on the Block, real talk about hip-hop, the church and the streets, Holy Culture Radio, Sears XM Channel 1 for Zero
[00:00:37] Yo, we are coming back with a part two man of my friend, a good friend, just like Rabbi Steve's a good friend talking about Israeli Hamas, Palestinian conflict man
[00:00:49] We're so far removed from a lot of that history, Americans man we just focused on what's going on in my town but don't really realize the effect that American government and other entities how they're affecting the broader world around us
[00:01:04] So, Rabbi Nasheibi man is a good friend of mine, he is the founder and founder executive director of Amman Central which is inner city Muslim Action Network
[00:01:17] We were talking with him last week, as he was talking about Israeli history with Palestine, some see it as colonialism, others see it as a political kind of move so we're going to continue on with
[00:01:34] with Rami man and hear more from him and maybe be able to talk a little bit more about it at the end so stay with us
[00:01:42] It's like coming to the United States and not confronting, it's like what the great white evangelical writer talks about Jim Wallace, America's original city
[00:01:50] Israel also is seeped in a colonial history that has displaced a lot of people that has confronted military occupation apartheid
[00:01:58] I was with a great Jewish family that's a great philanthropic family that support, we don't get a grant from them
[00:02:04] We now do their foundation that's based in the East Coast for some great arts work, they come out of a great family
[00:02:12] And many of those and their tradition are progressive on a lot of issues I met with one of those family members in Jerusalem and she was very supporting a lot of great efforts
[00:02:21] and wanted to talk to me about Rami, I'm struggling with the term apartheid being used on us, right? I.e. Israelis inside Israel
[00:02:30] I said, well listen, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. First of all, who would be the best arbitrators of determining what apartheid looks or feels like?
[00:02:46] Let's talk about it. Maybe the people that lived through apartheid, right? Maybe the people that actually lived through apartheid and fought to dismantle it, i.e. the South African folks, Mandela, Bishop Tutu, to know what's similar
[00:03:04] So let's first start there. Let's first start there. And without fail, every black South African that has been part of the experienced apartheid and visited Palestine, Israel, this is apartheid!
[00:03:23] Unequivocally, you got two judicial systems. You got a military court, you got a civilian court, you got second class citizenship for the Palestinians inside Israel
[00:03:33] You have two sets of roads, you have license plates, these people can't travel like you can travel. Me as a Palestinian American, I can't go back and have the same rights that a Jewish American has
[00:03:46] Come on now! Right, right. So that was one I said to my sister. The other thing I said is I said listen, what was her response to that?
[00:03:55] Well, you know, she had the even more powerful response to the second day, which I said system. Look, most of my stuff of course comes out of the experience of Chicago.
[00:04:05] Two of the great sociologists of our of the 20th century wrote a damning text that made America confront the realities of post-industrial ghetto and what we created, right?
[00:04:17] Called American apartheid. Douglas Maxie, Nancy Deighton. A book that makes us confront the realities of urban segregation, of what disinvestment, what redlining, what restricted covenants, what does, you know,
[00:04:33] They're just the realities of that. That was a text deliberately written to agitate America to confront the realities of inner city urban segregation and using the metaphor of one thing that America said, not willingly by the way.
[00:04:54] No, never willingly. I mean, it wasn't let's not get a twisted to Mandela now is like on the walls of Congress folks but you know he was not, you know, not like not unlike you had Muhammad Ali lighting the torch.
[00:05:06] You know, but you did not like that brother back in the day. You did not like Mandela. He was on your terrorist list. Right?
[00:05:13] Right. Exactly. So, so the realities of confronting this are very difficult because powerful resources even within the community. So like even in this moment today, as we think about what continues to happen, the death toll continues to amount.
[00:05:35] It is absolutely clear that Netanyahu again, to his credit, if he deserves any credit, he deserves credit. The man is doing what he said he would do.
[00:05:46] They never had any intention of everyone's asking what's the day after now they want they want that place level. They want to displace as many of them. They want them out, bro.
[00:05:55] They want to drive these same people back into across into Egypt into Blamable.
[00:06:02] They want to full exercise full control over the Gaza Strip again. Meanwhile, the lives the first into Father in 87 was sparked by the conditions and Gaza Strip in the spread.
[00:06:14] Meanwhile, you know, settlement activity that's taking over settlements that everywhere across the West Bank is expanding the lives of Palestinians the way they live even to rebuild anything.
[00:06:26] My family lives in Jerusalem if they try to rebuild their bathroom and they have to get a permit for ever to get to build a plaster fall. We can't even sit in there.
[00:06:36] And we dare rebuild it. It's then licensed. If someone then claims they could come and demolish the entire home.
[00:06:43] What collective punishment exists on a scale? If your son is caught throwing stones or activity stuff, the Israeli soldiers have done where they will then impose upon the family.
[00:06:53] They will demolish homes of the family. They will uproot olive trees from the family because your kid was so, you know, absolutely pushed to the edges did some crazy thing.
[00:07:04] Right. Either throwing stones or stat, you know, knife, tack, whatever. So what happened when the if you will the prison walls of Gaza broke and the horror of what unfolded should it be persecuted?
[00:07:20] Absolutely. But should it be understood in complete context? Absolutely. Can you can you have context and still stand with human suffering? Absolutely.
[00:07:28] And what about the human suffering in Gaza? Look, that's why sometimes, yes, there is a quote unquote complicated history and yes, you should understand it.
[00:07:37] But sometimes again, you know, it's a look lead into the instincts of the young brother Redvale. You're the young hip hop artist.
[00:07:44] Look what he did three months this is like two months ago. One of his shows massive out of 20 black kids white kids Jewish kids.
[00:07:53] Massive. He had five. He had at that point, I think it was 4000 names scroll on the back of his screen.
[00:08:02] He said all those names didn't make it to the age of five.
[00:08:07] Don't let he said don't let them say it's complicated. That shit ain't complicated.
[00:08:17] Yes, sir. That shit ain't complicated.
[00:08:20] Under five.
[00:08:22] That ain't complicated. No, our bombs, we have dropped over the amount of two atomic bombs on that narrow strip.
[00:08:32] Now we're probably getting close to three atomic bombs. We have literally incinerated bodies of four year old six year olds.
[00:08:40] These are our moms. And anytime you say even a ceasefire, even to even suggest the ceasefire, you get associated with what that other side of the barbers.
[00:08:51] You must be supporting commands.
[00:08:53] Right, right.
[00:08:54] Our brother from the West side of Chicago.
[00:08:57] Who emerges as the first black man to be mayor in this city after hell watching as audacity to cast the tie breaking vote.
[00:09:06] That gets castigated by others as somehow standing with barbarrism. Savagery, even though a month before the first resolution was unequivocally about condemning in no absolute uncertain terms the the horrors and atrocities on the seventh and stand with you.
[00:09:26] They had already passed that resolution.
[00:09:29] Why are we being bamboozled into accepting that like,
[00:09:34] Treasuring the sanctity of Palestinian life is in favor of the sanctity of Jewish life. That's that's one or the other.
[00:09:41] Yeah.
[00:09:42] You know, so we are in that moment right now and people have to understand we got kids are getting docs you got black kids on universities.
[00:09:49] And God knows is there anti-semitism absolutely and has that has anti-semitism needs to be confronted on all and every single levels. Absolutely.
[00:09:57] Let's not get it twisted. We need to do that at the same time. Let's be very real about who is being punished right now. Yeah, right.
[00:10:04] What would you say? Sorry to interrupt you. Yeah.
[00:10:07] What would you say?
[00:10:09] Folks can do like like in the context of locally, you know, we talk myself with our mayor and whatever and wherever you're listening to where you're at.
[00:10:22] Maybe there's some things politically that you can measure people to do.
[00:10:25] Well, I think first and foremost, we need to become better educated. Let's start reading a little bit more. Let's start understanding.
[00:10:30] Brothers and sisters like let's start reading. Yeah, because because there is no such thing as balance right now. You are being so skewed.
[00:10:38] Even even your progressive media venues have never given you a fraction of the Palestinian voices be very real right now.
[00:10:44] So just being able to read and go read Michelle, like go read trusted sources.
[00:10:49] We're not talking about like go receive Michelle Alexander's editorial in the op-ed in New York Times two years ago.
[00:10:55] Why the woman who wrote the new Jim Crow had to come out and say, look, I've been ignoring this and then all of a sudden a woman that is being celebrated.
[00:11:07] What happens to her? She starts getting hit. She starts getting why did same thing with Tana Hasse just for being able to because Tana Hasse was brought there.
[00:11:15] Go look at go listen to some go go read Mark Lamont's book on you know, on Palestine and Israel.
[00:11:22] And he lays out a real clear coherent argument there is in no way shape or form.
[00:11:27] We cannot accept the silencing of people like Bernie Sanders of others by suggesting just by getting by just becoming aware that somehow that gets equated with the evil history of anti-Semitism.
[00:11:42] That is that's evil history that needs to be condemned for what it is.
[00:11:47] Any one of those tropes right I walked through the ship Memorial three times at least right the Holocaust Memorial and like any human being I'm gut you know it's gut wrenching right so we stand against all the tropes that the Christ killer trope all the tropes that were used
[00:12:05] right to persecute Jewish communities.
[00:12:07] Oftentimes not only but for a vast majority of those times in European settings over the last thousand years right and we have to understand now has that happened among other communities yes and has and can African American express anti-Semitic tropes absolute
[00:12:25] can Palestinians yes should it be should it be checked absolute yes but let's be honest in this moment right now the most the people that are being punished even in this country right for being for daring to question speak on university campuses.
[00:12:42] We cannot disassociate that the first the most prestigious institution of higher learning in the world.
[00:12:50] Right after hundreds of years.
[00:12:54] Has now what the first black woman president.
[00:12:59] And you're going to try to disassociate right you're going to try to tell me that yes I had nothing to do with her was it badly worded could she have been a little bit what's she trying to be a little more legal but that had to do again with not that we there's a very powerful movement.
[00:13:19] That I don't think is animated by the things that are going to move us forward as a community and ask collectively as a community by constantly punishing black and brown people specially in this country that have already experienced tremendous trauma from being able to just even question being asked the right questions even saying
[00:13:39] Palestine even wearing kaffir other people wearing even things young power black students they're not just standing with the solidarity for Palestinian suffering because they may know a lot that's just that's in the Constitution of the black American experience right.
[00:13:54] You're going to start with stuff from wherever you see it and you don't really need a lot of expert like red veil you don't need a lot of critical race theory or graduate university kind of break down to give you the complexity of it like you keep getting right right.
[00:14:09] Hip hop is a movement that infuses because you don't take hip hop seriously because it's been so bastardized and marginalized you don't understand the kind of knowledge that has been disseminated over the last 50 years in hip hop that is in that is infused people that are on margin with the ability to understand and align and see right.
[00:14:28] I just read black thoughts memoir two days ago just the brilliance that has been in that emerge on the streets that also created that same brilliance created the human tapestry through all through which all of us can connect our stories.
[00:14:43] That was the brilliance of hip hop aesthetic and that's where I want to think we should leave down in this conversation my mom because that's the whole forward.
[00:14:50] I hope forward is that we find the kind of that sacred cipher what I was talking about that what we do on Saturdays the spiritual wisdom of the cipher and how that kind of infused itself into hip hop culture.
[00:15:03] Number one cipher.
[00:15:05] It's an emoji, its origins first of all the word cipher and logically comes from the Arabic word ancient American word siphon right.
[00:15:15] Zero.
[00:15:17] What does the cipher and zero have to do with anything with the zero obviously was by the way, the great ancient African Muslim contribution to advancement in civilization.
[00:15:29] There is no technological innovations without the ones in the zeros the math algebra right algebra comes from algebra.
[00:15:36] Right.
[00:15:37] The great of great African mathematicians that introduced great concepts like the idea of the zero.
[00:15:45] But the zero also became a metaphor for what no beginning, no beginning, no beginning, no ending.
[00:15:52] Right.
[00:15:53] And the zero was the ultimate kind of metaphor of the divine because in the zero in that when you sat in the cipher when you sat in a cipher, right you are all kind of seeing each other.
[00:16:04] You're all in there with one another and you brought the divine into that space.
[00:16:08] You brought higher consciousness into that space and in that space irrespective of where you were coming from and that's why when the, you know, when our brothers brought it into hip hop culture they were able to translate like you had you had Jewish kids, black kids, Puerto Rican kids, you know Dominican kids, they would get in the cipher and everyone could spit in the cipher.
[00:16:28] Everyone saw each other in cipher.
[00:16:30] Right.
[00:16:31] You can hear each other in the cipher.
[00:16:32] You can lift each other in cipher.
[00:16:33] Right.
[00:16:34] And I think the cipher in my mind is the ultimate metaphor for what spiritual human liberation needs to look like in the 21st century.
[00:16:42] And that's where we need to go.
[00:16:43] We need to bring each other back into these sacred ciphers.
[00:16:46] We need to be honest in those spaces.
[00:16:48] We need to spit sacred truth.
[00:16:50] We need to lift up those who are suffering, whoever that's wherever that suffering is and be and be fearless in being able to call out the forces that are perpetuating that suffering, even if we ourselves are complicit with those forces.
[00:17:06] I mean this is powerful.
[00:17:08] This is beyond powerful.
[00:17:10] Yo, this is incredible.
[00:17:12] What I mean, Rami is breaking down.
[00:17:14] We're going to take a break right now.
[00:17:16] We'll be right back.
[00:17:17] And we'll come back and finish our conversation with Rami.
[00:17:19] I got a couple of interesting questions to talk through about my experience and my trip to Israel.
[00:17:27] So go right there.
[00:17:29] Wow, not a lot of shows just talking about this kind of stuff, man.
[00:17:33] So we are into it with Rami.
[00:17:37] Rami's a good friend of ours, man, as well as, like I was saying with Rabbi Steve.
[00:17:42] And so, you know, before the break I was just talking about my experience, about to talk about my experience in Israel.
[00:17:51] And so we're going to get right into the trip in a little bit about my experiences as well.
[00:17:57] So look, do you think and a part of my going is opportunity through my friend and you know as well Rabbi Steve is to find where I can bring hip hop in that space.
[00:18:11] And what I'm saying is as the healing force in a context of all the history, all the pain, who's there rocking on the mic?
[00:18:22] Who's there engaging in the arts?
[00:18:24] The arts is that art for them to transformation.
[00:18:27] That is how we see this space.
[00:18:29] How can we find that space where those issues can be confronted, how those issues can create that confrontations can bring healing.
[00:18:37] And how there can be ownership of what has happened in that space.
[00:18:41] So through the arts, through hip hop, through a deep, so sometimes the most to me hidden spaces or moms on the corner say we pray over here every Tuesday at two o'clock.
[00:18:51] That is one spot.
[00:18:52] And I was like, how does that spot get so peaceful?
[00:18:54] Right.
[00:18:55] Because 10 years they've been praying.
[00:18:56] So I'm saying my effort is to find that to be able to say.
[00:19:01] That's powerful by the way that praying on the corner does mask, right?
[00:19:04] That's that.
[00:19:05] That resonates across the globe.
[00:19:09] Remember that documentary pray, The Devil Back to Hell about the sisters in the library area, right?
[00:19:13] Who they literally precipitated one of the most significant political transformations in the 20th century by praying together.
[00:19:21] So I don't want to remind you.
[00:19:22] Listen, someone like yourself that's rooted in experience and rooted in sincerity and rooted in being just a beautiful human being.
[00:19:31] I told you this, leaning into your third eye, leaning to like leaning to knowing what is true.
[00:19:38] And then you got a peak game, bro, even from the people that we love sometimes.
[00:19:42] Exactly.
[00:19:43] We were just talking about a situation before we started the podcast.
[00:19:46] You know, sometimes people with quote unquote the best of intentions or stated intentions may come into our communities and say, I want to do a quote, quote program.
[00:19:55] Yeah.
[00:19:56] I would like to talk to all of you are formerly incarcerated and get there in areas.
[00:20:01] What are you doing?
[00:20:02] Well, I want them all to talk about the moment they got shot.
[00:20:06] Okay.
[00:20:08] You want them to memorialize their trauma in a book that how does that lead to their liberation?
[00:20:15] Right?
[00:20:16] Because our because we've just spent the last three years saying they are more than the moment they got shot or shot somewhere.
[00:20:22] Right.
[00:20:23] Why are we creating platforms across the country that that's the only story you get associated with?
[00:20:30] Exactly.
[00:20:31] So sometimes efforts, but some of the people associated with those efforts are really honestly animated by the best of intentions.
[00:20:40] And I say this to you as you get ready to embark over there.
[00:20:45] Hip hop has existed.
[00:20:46] Exactly.
[00:20:47] Let us be careful not to perpetuate some of the motifs that come along with kind of colonial white savior complex.
[00:20:58] Right?
[00:20:59] We need to go to Ghana to save people.
[00:21:01] We need to go to to ground.
[00:21:03] No, no, no.
[00:21:05] In fact, oftentimes we need to go to kind of get it.
[00:21:07] Get saved.
[00:21:08] Get saved.
[00:21:09] Right?
[00:21:10] Get connected.
[00:21:11] Get saved.
[00:21:12] Get saved.
[00:21:13] Get connected.
[00:21:14] Get saved.
[00:21:15] Right?
[00:21:16] So, you know, we have Palestinian hip hop artists, the Palestinian hip hop artists in Gaza, the Palestinian hip hop artists inside Israel that have been trying to create platform to connect my brother Tamar Nafar from a group called Dem.
[00:21:26] He's like the OG.
[00:21:27] He's like the rock him of hip hop inside Israel connected to him before you go.
[00:21:32] So, we have a tour in the community that he grew up in inside Israel called lead, which, you know, we saw the poverty saw the drug deal saw thing very similar to certain circumstances and inner city communities and these are Palestinian Israelis inside.
[00:21:47] It's a powerful artistic collaboration. I mean, I want you to meet my dear beloved brother Reverend Mitri who leads the only Palestinian cultural art university in the entire Palestine.
[00:21:58] It is a university filled with brilliant kids from all over Palestine Gaza West Bank Ramallah creating film movie art all over it's an only art university built under occupation in the ancient city of Bethlehem by our priest.
[00:22:13] And my friend Roberto, I believe was there that hip hop.
[00:22:18] So, so, so, so point being that the movements are there artistic expression is there and we should connect with it black Jerusalem was a vehicle that we created to connect with we perform there you know, during I even performed with them and we our intention was to hopefully in Charlotte God will continue to do that but what
[00:22:39] I'm sharing with you is among the things that I think are absolutely critical is art cannot thrive without also what makes some of those programs unbearable for people, you know, even if they don't have all the language that fully articulated something
[00:22:56] I feel flunky because you're not coming in here and if you're not helping us address the core systemic issues that are creating the conditions that are generating the kind of moments of trauma, and you just want to capitalize on the trauma.
[00:23:11] Right, you will just want to tell a story about the trauma you want a good story.
[00:23:15] I want my mom to eat next week.
[00:23:17] I want my cousin who's coming home from a 30 year bit to have a job so that he doesn't get caught up in the same type of trauma that got incarcerated 30 years ago.
[00:23:26] I want to make sure you're dealing with some of the systemic deep institutional root issues of poverty in my community, my brother and sister, and if you're going to devote some of those resources.
[00:23:35] God knows we know and I don't want to just be a landing pad for a great idea that you can copy it on 32nd floor of a building downtown.
[00:23:42] Right, right.
[00:23:43] Right.
[00:23:44] I want to be more than that.
[00:23:45] I want to make sure that five years from now this institution is five times as at least five times if not 10 or 15 times more endowed with resources and with more opportunities so that it can grow so we can build institutions.
[00:23:58] My point being as as Americans when we go and we visit with our brothers and sisters Jewish Muslim Christian inside the land, the sacred land.
[00:24:06] We need to be attentive to some of the structural forces that are creating the neckly and how we contribute to it and I think our greatest contribution is to be able to kind of be able to find ways to break down the barriers that are preventing people from speaking to that issue.
[00:24:20] Yeah, see, to me, and MC is just they've been speaking those issues, I'm sure.
[00:24:25] Right.
[00:24:27] To me, that's the only.
[00:24:29] I mean, I'm at the only is the most powerful and yet, like, whatever that that that historic voice of these artists there has been like yo, this is a this is not those soft like whatever, but whatever and however cats have been saying what they've been saying to bring this attention to me is always in that
[00:24:56] that that that peculiar place that you would never look or never see or throw off to me is that space where that healing can take place or has been taking place. You just need to jump in and with the the boldness of cats would say and do and speak
[00:25:15] the truth what's going on amongst and miss the complications with that may cost them right.
[00:25:20] That's the example is one I'm trying to know I agree look and I think that I think when we create when we create again go back to the sacred cipher, the sacred cipher for me creates a space within the sacred cipher right that I call like the majestic middle.
[00:25:37] There's a middle ground in that space that connects all our marginal experiences together.
[00:25:43] And that's not just I don't want the middle to be confused with some weak distant neutrality.
[00:25:49] No doubt.
[00:25:50] The middle in my mind, I talk about it as and I've been writing about it as the kind of, you know, person and forces that kind of brings synaptic tissues together that connect issues together.
[00:26:05] And now you feel connected to another person on the margins that you were not otherwise not as connected to because I'm holding the middle.
[00:26:12] So I'm holding the center of that cipher.
[00:26:15] Yeah, I'm keeping you all together.
[00:26:17] I think those are the forces that we need in this moment.
[00:26:21] Yeah.
[00:26:22] And that person needs to be able to understand the narrative everybody in those spaces while still being able to speak truth.
[00:26:30] Yeah.
[00:26:31] To speak honestly, to speak openly.
[00:26:34] Because when you bring that level of truth, even confronting your own people, then you bring.
[00:26:40] Okay now the start of where this healing can take and I can trust you better right.
[00:26:47] Right.
[00:26:48] I can trust you back like yeah.
[00:26:49] And yet that truth is covered up camouflage.
[00:26:52] Yeah.
[00:26:53] Justified.
[00:26:54] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:26:55] And I think that's why we need to get to raw spaces.
[00:26:57] And again, that's what that's what the hip hop aesthetic allowed us to do right is like there was no pretense.
[00:27:02] We were able to kind of speak to the stuff honestly.
[00:27:04] We spoke to kind of the raw story telling and then we were able to see ourselves in one another in very, very powerful ways.
[00:27:10] And it's a reason why that that as a conduit, you know, one of the brothers that I'm talking about Tamron when I first connected with him.
[00:27:17] And among the times back in 2005, we had just had taken into the streets.
[00:27:21] And I came back and I was, you know, he him and his brother stayed in a real small little apartment in the house and they had small room and I was literally laying on the floor in the middle.
[00:27:31] And we were he was showing me, you know, at that time I forgot what software they were using to kind of, you know, have all their rhymes.
[00:27:38] He was showing us on the rhymes.
[00:27:40] Now they learned English off MCs.
[00:27:42] Yeah.
[00:27:43] Right.
[00:27:44] They learned English from like the lyrics of MCs and on his screen.
[00:27:48] He had a screensaver, a quote from an MC that said, how are you going to do your homework if your homes will work?
[00:27:56] And I said, that's one below.
[00:27:58] That's one below 70% of folks in America that listen to hip hop don't even know one below one below from binary stars on a gram.
[00:28:07] Right.
[00:28:08] Yeah.
[00:28:09] I said, I was just with him.
[00:28:10] Right.
[00:28:11] Like you know what below you're all the way over here.
[00:28:14] You're tapping into underground hip hop consciousness all the way from here.
[00:28:18] Point being the force of hip hop in that moment was to be able to create a lexicon that allowed people across the globe to still become very, they still were very Palestinian and cited like positive beats.
[00:28:32] But they're also connecting to global universal language that at the time wasn't just code for language of the market or empire.
[00:28:41] Now what we still need to do in 2024 is try to still those of us who still love the power, the intrinsic organic power of the old school hip hop.
[00:28:51] We're busy extricating the powers of empire and the capital because most people when they just they think about hip hop, they think about the market, they think about that McDonald's commercial, they think about the soup hall, they think about all these things.
[00:29:06] They don't see it as a liberatory spiritual force anymore.
[00:29:10] And I think for someone like yourself, Pastor Phil, you've lived it.
[00:29:14] You're grounded in it.
[00:29:15] You're grounded in experience.
[00:29:17] So I think whatever you are in the world, you bring that and I hope and pray that the trip, you know, again, you know, becomes a vehicle for that.
[00:29:26] And we'll stay in conversation.
[00:29:28] Yeah, I can and I make sure we connect.
[00:29:30] You know, but this is this is why the spaces that we operate in on the West side on the South side and Inglewood, Launday, you know, those are still the spaces of reckoning in America.
[00:29:41] Right.
[00:29:42] Why, you know, five decades after the assassination King, do we still linger in these conditions?
[00:29:50] Yeah, it was just a Montgomery piece of justice joint, you know, and seeing you the threads.
[00:29:57] I just read because I've been doing a lot of reading.
[00:30:00] And it's been on my shelf forever.
[00:30:01] I read Native Seven, but I never read Blackboard.
[00:30:03] I just read Blackboard.
[00:30:05] And then right after I read Blackboard, I read a brother, Kaisie Leymart.
[00:30:11] Have you heard him?
[00:30:13] He brother wrote a memoir called Heavy.
[00:30:17] He's out there, Deep Deep Brother.
[00:30:19] And it's like three decades later he's writing in Jackson, Mississippi.
[00:30:23] And I'm like, the experiences of this brother three decades or four decades later.
[00:30:29] It was almost like I'm reading Reminiscent.
[00:30:31] Like it's not too different from Richard Wright in Jackson, Mississippi.
[00:30:35] You know, and then those experiences that drove to the connections of what I saw last night in the play are still so familiar to our brothers that we're dealing with right now.
[00:30:45] So point being, you know, you're rooted in real work that is about reconciliation, about justice and real communities.
[00:30:53] And I think that gives you an insight and instinct that God willing is your ability to be able to be a source of light, a source of truth.
[00:31:01] And I think we have to lean into that more than ever in these moments.
[00:31:05] You know, and I would just say also just, you know, please at the very least the ceasefire at the very least continue to find your educate, you know, yourself on some of the things that are happening.
[00:31:17] Those are your dollars. When I came back from the White House, I made sure that because a lot of media wanted to know because I was the only Palestinian talking to Biden.
[00:31:25] So a lot of media interest.
[00:31:27] And they made sure that I started turning down all the media and I said, OK, we'll cold press conference. We held it on the lot on 63rd racing.
[00:31:36] That way I brought all the media to England.
[00:31:38] And I said, look, I want to talk about what's happening there also in the context of what is not happening here.
[00:31:45] Why are we talking about sending billions upon billions upon billions to a state that is so absolutely in violation of international law of codes of ethnic Geneva conventions.
[00:32:00] Again, it took the South Africans.
[00:32:02] You're going to claim that they're going to claim that their objective or that their motive to bring Israel to the International Court of Justice was anti-semitism.
[00:32:11] Wow.
[00:32:12] Is that what drove them really South Africans?
[00:32:15] Right.
[00:32:16] Right.
[00:32:17] They brought your sister the International Court of Justice because they can smell and they have a history of understanding what, you know, the type of catastrophic apocalyptic violence that you are inflicting upon a civilian population looks like.
[00:32:36] Wow.
[00:32:37] They know it.
[00:32:38] They know it.
[00:32:39] And it doesn't mean that they do not value the life of Jewish folks any less.
[00:32:42] That's right.
[00:32:43] That's not even a conversation.
[00:32:45] No, no.
[00:32:46] That's not even a piece of the world.
[00:32:47] And I think we need to find our ways to continue to read up on this, to educate, create spaces and it should come from love.
[00:32:55] And I'm having those conversations with some of my Jewish brothers and sisters that I know.
[00:32:59] You got a whole arm of love.
[00:33:01] Yeah, this love thing, man.
[00:33:03] Make sure you check that out.
[00:33:04] Yeah.
[00:33:05] I mean, yo, okay.
[00:33:06] So, people go look for whatever you listen a few things.
[00:33:12] Could you repeat those?
[00:33:13] Repeat.
[00:33:14] All right.
[00:33:15] I really look.
[00:33:16] Mark Lamont Hill wrote a very powerful book with another author called Except for Palestine.
[00:33:22] I think that's a great primer.
[00:33:23] Wow.
[00:33:24] Rashid Khalidi just wrote.
[00:33:25] Dr. Khalidi wrote a really powerful book.
[00:33:28] Israeli journalists and Heret's newspaper is an Israeli newspaper actually gives you some great editorials by that you won't even read sometimes in the Chicago Tribune.
[00:33:42] There are Israeli journalists that are speaking more truth to power than a lot of even American journals.
[00:33:47] Find these alternative sources.
[00:33:50] I look at some of the places and spaces online that are giving you an opportunity to understand the history of things like the neck that if you don't know that term and a K B a about the what's called the cat.
[00:34:04] He doesn't know the history of the past.
[00:34:05] He doesn't know the history of the past.
[00:34:06] He doesn't know the history of the past.
[00:34:07] So, to understand that catastrophe in English, the 1948 displacement of Palestinians that coupled with the history of the formation of state Israel to understand these types of kind of historical factors, you know, occupation 101, there's a documentary that lets you better understand the basics of occupation.
[00:34:24] And God, please, brothers and sisters, if you travel.
[00:34:29] difficulty in these but I always encourage make sure you go to places like Bethlehem
[00:34:35] Mm-hmm. Make sure you insist that you go to refugee camps, right?
[00:34:39] Make sure you insist there are signs that the Israeli government places outside of places like Ramallah that
[00:34:46] discourages people going and says you're at risk of death
[00:34:50] And I'm like, you know this idea that just visiting Palestinian places
[00:34:56] You can die. I mean when you're keeping people from the truth like that
[00:35:02] You know went to Jericho, the mayor of Jericho's a Palestinian African brother and he wanted
[00:35:08] He was talking to the rabbi with us. He wanted her in his home. They're pleased don't leave
[00:35:13] People, these are beautiful people. They just want you to understand their plight
[00:35:17] That they don't control the water. Yeah, they don't even control the water that they live by
[00:35:23] Right, but like electricity. So so my appeal is to my brothers and sisters Jewish Muslim Christian and otherwise
[00:35:30] Please just be open-minded. Greg. Don't buy no being pro-Palestinian
[00:35:36] You know, I don't like these terminology because it's one people against another just be pro-truth be proven
[00:35:42] Being be someone that loves you know to stand with those who are suffering whether those are genuinely Jewish folks
[00:35:49] Muslim folks Christian folks and in this case the Palestinian community as people have known for decades
[00:35:56] Michelle Alexander is not an anti-Semite. Right. Cornel West is not an anti-Semite
[00:36:01] You know, Angela Davis is not an anti-Semite
[00:36:05] Sherry Chisholm was not an anti-Semite
[00:36:09] Jackson Jesse Jackson is not an anti-Semite. These are people that love people
[00:36:14] They stand and we know that their synagogues know that here, right?
[00:36:19] But they've tried to illuminate the kind of broader human tragedy our mayor is not an anti-Semite
[00:36:26] That's right. I'm mad just not
[00:36:28] By standing with and calling for a cessation of violence in no way shape our form is
[00:36:35] Devaluing Jewish life is no way shape our form
[00:36:39] Aligning with a terrorist outlaw organization
[00:36:42] And if we're gonna call out Hamas as you should you should also care call out
[00:36:47] Governments that are an absolute violation of every every say really, you know agreed upon
[00:36:56] Notion of what international law is what Geneva conventions are what basic human rights are
[00:37:02] So that's my appeal to brothers and sisters that may be listening and just beautiful to be with you
[00:37:07] This is good. Yeah, yeah, this church on the block man. We on the block
[00:37:16] Virtual on the block
[00:37:26] Yo stay tuned stay tuned we're gonna
[00:37:30] unpack this
[00:37:31] More more as you listen and do something do something like like don't be
[00:37:37] Intimidated by those around you don't be intimidated by
[00:37:44] What what you don't know learn study, you know being able to have a way in which you can speak truth to power
[00:37:52] With with the knowledge you have but don't
[00:37:55] Come with a skewed aspect of some Fox news nonsense or some other stuff that is created
[00:38:01] One-sidedness and even to our own government to our own people don't be intimidated
[00:38:09] Because you get your own listen to one side
[00:38:12] Not to study the whole picture and oftentimes that's how oppressors do they keep the information
[00:38:17] I'm gonna do you in such a way where
[00:38:20] You side with them and even I got your own people while you're getting hoodwinked as well
[00:38:25] That was such a great interview with Romney. This is the second part
[00:38:29] We're so thankful for him, you know when we
[00:38:33] Come back after this little break right here
[00:38:36] Pastor Jay and I gonna break some stuff down
[00:38:38] You know what what I experienced in Israel what he's experiencing Israel and our understanding of what's going on
[00:38:43] From breakdown with Ronnie we read that church on the block
[00:38:46] John Pastor Phil welcome to church on the block
[00:38:50] Rami is so dope with all the daggum history. Oh my goodness man
[00:38:59] And you know as a as a
[00:39:01] As a brother that we know and love and serve with in this city and you know
[00:39:05] He spoke
[00:39:06] Elequently with President Obama's got a MacArthur genius award. I mean he is an advocate for peace for both in Chicago
[00:39:14] Bringing Palestinians and Jewish community together and had been doing that for years
[00:39:19] and now in this
[00:39:21] Horrific time, you know, it's different when you got like family there, right?
[00:39:25] You got people on the ground and you're hearing things that are going on
[00:39:29] You know, you really want
[00:39:32] Those who've been partnering with you to share in both
[00:39:35] The way of peace the way of peace right?
[00:39:39] Mother Teresa says is great quote that we say at the firehouse all the time that
[00:39:44] Whenever there's an absence of peace it is because we forgot that we belong to each other
[00:39:51] You know when I forget when I forget that I belong to you
[00:39:58] Them now I see you as an op I see you as something something other than you know
[00:40:02] And there's a lot of history, you know in Israel's and about their efforts
[00:40:07] To try to bring peace in the two-state nation and all that kind of stuff that we could barely scratch the surface of I
[00:40:14] think to bring some kind of
[00:40:18] Quality conversation without having people together on this call on the show to talk about this
[00:40:23] So Jay, I mean you you spend some time in Israel. Do not not wartime. I don't think I mean I don't
[00:40:30] Did you get it? Did you know did you get it? Did you get a chance to go?
[00:40:34] To Palestine or Gaza?
[00:40:37] Yeah, so I've had a chance to go twice
[00:40:41] The first time I went I
[00:40:44] Was in I was studying so I went to study at Jerusalem University College
[00:40:50] since I'm outside of
[00:40:53] The the old city walls. So it's probably I was there for three weeks
[00:40:59] in the
[00:41:01] Geographical and historical settings of the Bible. So that trip but I had a lot more freedom because I was a student and
[00:41:09] And and and it wasn't wartime, but there was high
[00:41:14] Hostility so this was in who Lord. Let's do this 2024. So this must have been our similar. It must have been like 2014
[00:41:22] When I went and there was high hostility. So there was some
[00:41:27] Some activity going back and forth, but it wasn't like it is now nowhere near
[00:41:33] But yeah, it was volatile and I remember
[00:41:36] I have a good friend
[00:41:40] Sammy Deepa squal a who's a part of Christian career development association who's from Jordan and
[00:41:47] He had connected me with some
[00:41:50] Palestinian Christians who were doing
[00:41:53] Peace like bridge building peace work in the area
[00:41:57] They lived in Jordan
[00:41:58] Well, I had a chance to to go to spaces that some other classmates didn't know we get they will come get me
[00:42:03] And so I did get to to to experience like the other side of the present
[00:42:11] The present narrative in in Israel Palestine
[00:42:14] So I was thankful for that
[00:42:16] But even before I got a chance to do that feel like the differences were palpable. I
[00:42:22] Remember, you know staying in Jerusalem and then us traveling. I mean because we went we did the entire
[00:42:29] Over those three weeks and imagine. So as we travel
[00:42:33] Israel into Palestine, it was like clear that there was a marked difference between the two spaces
[00:42:39] That's what I already is concerned as far as the way they were
[00:42:42] Policed I mean everything I tell people if you from Chicago area being in Jerusalem was like being an old park
[00:42:48] You know I'm saying and being in Palestine was like being in right like it was that mark
[00:42:53] You know the difference was was that start?
[00:42:56] And so it started making me ask questions like well, what kind of narrative are we getting back home because I don't hear
[00:43:02] Yeah
[00:43:03] When I'm back home, you know, I mean I just hear all you know
[00:43:07] The the the narrative of what them fighting or them wanting to land it but not like one of power versus
[00:43:14] You know kind of you know inequity or one of like rich and poor
[00:43:19] I didn't see one of like oppressed in oppressor. I didn't have that narrative before I went
[00:43:24] Until I experienced it myself and so so then I started having to ask myself hard questions like
[00:43:31] Well, I know what I'm experiencing what I'm feeling as I travel from space to space in Israel in Palestine
[00:43:37] And how it feels to be on a bus and have somebody come in and check your passport and have guns on all my band
[00:43:44] But then I had to ask myself questions about like why was this the way it was?
[00:43:48] So I wouldn't just create a one-sided narrative that man. They are pressing people right it
[00:43:53] I asked questions about why this, you know Israel was deciding to
[00:44:00] To police things the way they were and so I think the longer I was there
[00:44:03] The more I had to realize that the story was more nuanced and I even wanted to
[00:44:07] and that
[00:44:10] You know, but the impact was still the same
[00:44:13] Okay, yeah, especially on me as somebody who does ministry and lives in a marginalized space
[00:44:19] I felt it. It wasn't like something somebody had to tell me about right recently Laundale went again in
[00:44:27] 2020 what's this 2024 2022 and
[00:44:31] I
[00:44:32] Knew what to expect and so I had a very different like mindset morning
[00:44:37] But our tour guide was a palestinian Christian
[00:44:41] Sorry
[00:44:49] So I
[00:44:51] I'm thankful that I had the opportunity to learn from
[00:44:56] someone who
[00:44:57] Gave us a tour of the area but also have relationships on both sides of the aisle. So he was born Palestinian
[00:45:04] Lived in Israel. It was good friends with Jewish folks and all I had much respect, but then also was a Christian Wow
[00:45:11] So we got such a new watch. I mean he talked to everybody. We heard every side
[00:45:15] We you know, we heard the good the bad ugly we saw him. No, we didn't have the
[00:45:20] Kind of typical tour. Yeah, you know
[00:45:23] Yeah, thank for that both times that I've gone that I've had the opportunity
[00:45:27] To be exposed in ways that maybe that the typical tourist is not yeah
[00:45:31] Yeah, that's important to have you know again man all we look at is
[00:45:36] You know, maybe seeing in maybe every once in a while we'll look at
[00:45:41] You know the global news, you know, yeah BBC is something
[00:45:46] We concerned about what's happening on 16th Street and did this happen these police really do this in the neighborhood
[00:45:52] We're so and that's important to be caught up in that
[00:45:55] But the reality is when somebody who say Hamas comes to the US
[00:46:01] Because us they feel US is supported Israel in some kind of way and now we wonder why that building blow up downtown
[00:46:07] We didn't do no we didn't under y'all why y'all over this way?
[00:46:10] Do we don't understand all the nuances that America has done or America?
[00:46:15] And or doesn't even have to be Hamas. I mean there have been people
[00:46:19] Who were pilots dropping bombs and you know, they were in California for the military
[00:46:25] And they got drones and they dropping bombs in Iran and other places we like la la la la la la
[00:46:31] And not knowing what's festering the hate
[00:46:35] In a whole another world man. And so, you know when we went just here recently
[00:46:40] I didn't get a chance to go the Gaza didn't get Palestine. They were like he's coming to checkpoints
[00:46:46] I had nobody
[00:46:48] To go with me who may have been from the area the pre the pastor was going to try to meet
[00:46:53] It was holy week, so he couldn't really come through because he was busy
[00:46:57] And he and he runs an art university. I wanted to get the best of both worlds
[00:47:01] But he's gonna we're gonna continue to build but we went with
[00:47:06] Some great leaders that are friends of ours and I'm Shalom Rabbi Steve who they know
[00:47:11] Rami and Rami knows them and there's a
[00:47:14] You know some language to doctor
[00:47:16] I mean that Rabbi Steve even mentioned when we talked to him that
[00:47:19] Israel needs to atone for its way in which it's handled the relationship with those in in Palestine and Gaza and having
[00:47:28] You know recognized that it hasn't always been like
[00:47:33] Favorable or or just in those spaces and I appreciated that but you know when we went man
[00:47:38] It was it was some horrific stuff that
[00:47:40] Hamas which Palestinians don't embrace their actions as by as terrorists
[00:47:46] Yet they know that they've taken over the government and I don't know the only way I could think of
[00:47:52] That having happening is that there was a threat. There was threat to a brilliant insightful passionate
[00:47:59] Palestinians were like we cannot not happen if we vote the other way
[00:48:03] They're gonna find us and you know other other torturous things
[00:48:06] I would believe but one one group says this one group has to be eliminated, you know, then it becomes beyond
[00:48:14] You know beyond
[00:48:19] Any kind of human imagination the torture of it all like when we were there and we went to the caboose where
[00:48:25] Israeli families live together in community and they talked about how when Hamas came over
[00:48:31] And landed on their roof because they were kind of parasailing paragliding through
[00:48:36] It's 6 30 in the morning on October 7th, and we're saying eliminate the Jews in
[00:48:42] Eliminate the Jews in Arabic and and they killed some people
[00:48:47] They would take their phones in the caboose and film them in the caboose
[00:48:52] As they kill and send that video to everybody on their phone. That's beyond
[00:48:59] Human that's like somebody who's a who's a serial killer that is that is the kind of mentality and you could cope
[00:49:07] Cloak it with it's a religious
[00:49:10] Justification in there in their mind, but this same person you're killed was created in the image of God
[00:49:15] And they may not what if they weren't even Jewish?
[00:49:17] They were just like the mind from Chicago come over to see somebody and
[00:49:22] It's your your religious
[00:49:25] Motivation is off because this is is this even a Jewish person. So, you know, we really really appreciate it
[00:49:32] Rub I Steve and the team we stayed in Jerusalem into the old city went to the Gaza border
[00:49:37] And we met some families whose kids were kidnapped and still wanting them back
[00:49:42] We met a dad who's both both of his sons were kidnapped and you know, he's
[00:49:47] 70 something time out. I wish I could go over there, you know, I'm 70
[00:49:51] I got dialysis, you know
[00:49:53] Anybody, you know
[00:49:55] If our of our kids were caught at the border cuz because they had some weed
[00:49:58] And they didn't know they supposed to get in there and some Russian jail man, we going over to Russia
[00:50:02] We're gonna go find we're gonna we're gonna find the twins won't be fine. It's wins. It's over
[00:50:09] But and our only human reality like I said, you know once before bridges, you know walked on on both sides
[00:50:16] We've got to find those voices. I think maybe even through artists through artistry
[00:50:22] Can be those voices to say, you know, this is not right
[00:50:26] How we see Israel policing us
[00:50:30] This is not right with tortures
[00:50:33] terrorists attacking Israel
[00:50:35] Israel owning up to what has been done that has created this police state and
[00:50:42] figured out a way where the Palestinians can have can be empowered not to
[00:50:48] Not to welcome or not to adhere to, you know terrorists
[00:50:53] You know coming through now I'm saying all that but I'm not an American. I'm African-American American, right?
[00:51:00] I'm not I'm not owning the history
[00:51:02] I'm not owning right, you know this this has been history for it says the 30s
[00:51:08] You know, there's been a lot of accumulated
[00:51:11] Stuff that we don't know why that that that we don't the Palestinians know who Israel knows
[00:51:17] And what that has meant to to the people but we in America need to find a way to pray first of all and to pray
[00:51:25] You know for God's peace
[00:51:27] and for justice
[00:51:31] Mercy, you know and for I mean, I don't know what's happening with the hostages by what they are being taken care of or not
[00:51:38] But they're different hostages that are dying in those spaces like that, right?
[00:51:42] So whatever bargaining chip that was going to be it begins to
[00:51:46] Dwindle
[00:51:48] You know for people who may be upset like we don't condone genocide
[00:51:52] We don't condone like people not being able to get the the
[00:51:57] Supplies that they need, you know food and water
[00:52:01] And in health care and supplies are all the things that are happening. That is no way what we're doing here
[00:52:07] Wrong is wrong and it is wrong the way that
[00:52:11] Our brothers and sisters and guys are being treated like if people can't get basic necessities like food and water and and health care that
[00:52:19] That's not there's no condoning that
[00:52:22] And there's no condoning like murdering people like our terrorist group coming. We just want to completely
[00:52:30] Make sure you understand that what we're saying is we don't condone the evil that's happening there
[00:52:35] But we also don't want to sit over here in the comforts
[00:52:39] America and in like we truly understand the depth and and the
[00:52:44] The trauma that goes along with this story that's been going on for decades
[00:52:49] We think we know reading doesn't make it real
[00:52:52] Man and watching movies don't make it real until you live that thing every day
[00:52:57] And until you have to understand the trauma and fear that people are
[00:53:01] Dealing with everyday, you'll never understand the sponsors. So this is why we leave with prayer
[00:53:06] This is why we're leading with a prophetic call for unity and peace and for people over here to stop hitting themselves against each other and say
[00:53:14] Man, we want unity and how can we be a part of healing?
[00:53:18] You know not restorative that is record, you know, not justice. That's our retribution, right?
[00:53:23] But justice that or that's what that's what we talking about. How do we see things get better?
[00:53:27] So we're not flaking out. We're not, you know playing the oh both sides. No, we're not wrong
[00:53:33] Right exactly
[00:53:37] Yeah
[00:53:41] Right like killing people is wrong not allowing people to get what they need. Yeah, yeah all day
[00:53:47] We're not fans. I'll say this public. We are not fans of the way the president
[00:53:52] Exactly
[00:53:54] Israelis are either desert that's so crazy
[00:53:57] and
[00:53:59] The reality of him co-signing he's signing over Trump. He loved Trump. You know I'm saying
[00:54:04] Right
[00:54:07] I just don't want people to get the idea that we just trying to play both sides and be the right now
[00:54:12] I'm confident type thing. Yeah, if you've been listening to our show at all, you know, that's not right
[00:54:16] We won't bring we real talk
[00:54:19] And we recognize that when we're there we're guests we only can get what's given to us
[00:54:24] We don't live it day in and day out of people who do live something right here in North London on the west side
[00:54:30] We know what it feels like for people who are not here to be pontificating about
[00:54:34] Yeah, that's what we were exactly and we don't want to exactly want to make sure that we say this is wrong
[00:54:39] This is wrong. We don't know the depth of history but that gummit
[00:54:42] We need people to be alive man to live in their life
[00:54:46] They can be transformation and change to take place
[00:54:49] Because we believe in a God that can do that kind of stuff funky in a funky way man
[00:54:53] Muslims Christians non-believers can live together
[00:54:57] harmoniously man and
[00:54:59] Be able to still love each other walk with each other go to work with each other man and and do life
[00:55:04] There's so much more to life than trying to find ways in which to cause harm
[00:55:10] And and depravity to people we say this one bar man real quick. I don't know how we can put it on but basically
[00:55:17] This doc this guy went to the doctor man
[00:55:20] He said ma'am doc man my knee hurts man my knee hurts man something's going on with my knee and
[00:55:26] He said pointed to me so he points to this part of the knees odd hurts doctor did x-ray
[00:55:32] Didn't see nothing. He said me sure she didn't even I don't know
[00:55:34] I know when I point to my when I do this on my shoulder my shoulders hurt
[00:55:39] He said many x-ray the shoulders like man his shoulder
[00:55:41] So what are you sure they in my back and you pointed to his back and his back
[00:55:45] Back means it was going on. He said, let me see your hand
[00:55:49] He took that man's hand x-ray the man's finger the man's finger was jacked up. He said everywhere you point
[00:55:54] That's where you're hurting that you pointed the wrong stuff man. That's the issue
[00:55:58] We dealing with the wrong thing we we pointed the wrong stuff
[00:56:01] We need to look at how can we be more human and and and and and
[00:56:07] both in
[00:56:09] Occupancy and non occupancy and human with each other and let life happen and a flourish life man and not pursue death
[00:56:17] And to prove pursue harm with one another man. Yo, this is past the field we're past the J
[00:56:23] past the T is with us in in in spirit
[00:56:29] We thank y'all for listening man church on the block we'll be back next week man channel 1 4 0
[00:56:34] Holy culture radio serious XM. See you next week. Tell your friends to tune in next week. Tell your friends to tune in
[00:56:41] Yes, yes, it's gonna be hot next week. Check it out