682. What it Takes to be an Artist with Mike Mack

[00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of the Cooling Solution. Thank you so much for tapping in. I'm so excited

[00:00:16] because I had a conversation with Mike Mack about what you need to do to become a great

[00:00:22] artist and this applies to each and every one of you listening right now. Why? Because we are

[00:00:28] left brain, right brain people. God gives us gifts and talents to do the factual, the logical, the

[00:00:34] statistical if you will but he also gives us gifts and talents in the form of arts and we can use

[00:00:41] both sides of our brains. It's whether we tap into it or not and Mike drops a number of gems

[00:00:48] having booked over 300 events, having helped some of the best artists in Christian hip hop.

[00:00:54] He is one of if not the leading booking agent in Christian hip hop so he's got a little experience

[00:01:01] and so this one is longer than normal because there's so many gems and I wanted to let each

[00:01:06] and every one of those gems shine for your benefit. Let's tap in. I kind of think you

[00:01:12] as the booking artist development expert, you got a lot of titles brother. Okay. You know

[00:01:18] artist development, promotions, booking, management. What did I miss?

[00:01:24] That's it. That's it? You sure? No, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I coached my daughter's

[00:01:30] fifth grade basketball team this year. There you go. Coach, you know what I'm saying? Bro,

[00:01:34] have you watched the NCAA finals? The women's? Oh yeah. I'm not new to it. I'm true to it.

[00:01:39] I've been watching women's basketball for a few years now. What's my daughter? I got two

[00:01:44] daughters. What's my daughter took interest? She's 10. Okay. When she took interest, I was like,

[00:01:48] all right, I got to help get these ratings up so that when she wants to play she can pay.

[00:01:52] Don't be telling everybody tune in, tune in. With some of the drafts, I think

[00:01:55] at WNDBA season is going to be crazy. It's amazing what they did this year for college

[00:01:59] basketball is extraordinary. The women's tournament was definitely better than the men's

[00:02:04] tournament. Yeah, I agree with you 200%. 200%. Well man, thanks for coming down to the

[00:02:09] Holy Coach offices. I think you're the first in this room. The last person we had come through,

[00:02:14] we had to shoot him off because this room wasn't even done. So you're the first to bless this room,

[00:02:19] bro. Yeah, let's do it. Let me say some crazy stuff. Ask me some rough questions and

[00:02:23] we can get the room set off properly. So for those that don't know Mike Mack,

[00:02:28] how would you describe your journey through Christian Hip Hop?

[00:02:32] Man, my journey, I'm not even sure how I describe it. Long and sufficient. I've learned to a base

[00:02:40] in a bound. I think is what I tell people all the time. I've learned how to be happy when

[00:02:44] the milk and honey is flowing and I've learned to be cool when I've been

[00:02:47] in a desert land in the industry. But I'm the most proud to say that I've been in

[00:02:52] the industry for like 15 years and I'm not angry. That's a good one. I said,

[00:02:58] I'm not angry. I haven't given up on the Lord and I'm still here. I'm still standing and I'm

[00:03:05] eating too. Bro, you know what? Some may hear that and feel like, man, that's a low bar.

[00:03:10] 15 years not angry, but you have to put it in perspective. That's not a low bar at all.

[00:03:13] When you think about the number of people who've kind of come through and are no longer here

[00:03:18] or they're kind of here, but they're internally shooting shots or they left for

[00:03:23] a shooting shot. To your point, man, 15 years are still like not angry.

[00:03:27] That's legit longevity. That's longevity. And I really hope, man, we see a day where

[00:03:33] you watch, what's coming up? Is it Bruce? Not Bruce Priesting. Billy Joel's coming out

[00:03:37] with something. Man, those are decades. Yeah. I'm looking forward to that for us.

[00:03:42] That's different. When you could perform for two hours, you could travel anywhere in the world.

[00:03:46] Absolutely. Where you could not have put out an album in 10 years and then do a tour and

[00:03:51] tour the whole country. Right. Now, to give some people some credit,

[00:03:54] let me get some people some flowers while we're here. Kent and Jones. A couple weeks ago,

[00:03:59] we got the hip hop hall of fame opening. My boy set. I mean, I forgot how many hits Kent had

[00:04:05] from hit to hit to hit to hit. But to your point, Billy Joel, you're talking a couple hours.

[00:04:09] Yeah. Hours. You're not at Springsteen yet. But yeah. He's dope. He's dope. Garf Brooks.

[00:04:16] Certain names you just say like, you know, Aerosmith. I'm looking for us to have those days.

[00:04:22] Yeah. At least a few. Yeah. So what made you launch Elevation Conference? I know that's your baby.

[00:04:28] Yeah. Elevation Conference basically started because there was nothing like,

[00:04:32] there was nothing really developing and geared towards artists and creatives in the New England

[00:04:35] area. It started off more as a traditional youth convention. All my Pentecostal Baptists out

[00:04:42] there. It was a convention when I got ahold of it. And we just slowly started transforming it

[00:04:48] into more of a conference over the years. And then it was so I was being done through my church. But

[00:04:55] then one day it was just like, man, this doesn't really fit into the church context in the same

[00:04:58] way that it did before. We're probably not going to break out and do the type of stuff that

[00:05:03] you do at a youth convention. Gotcha. And so we actually pulled it out of our church and

[00:05:08] made it independent in its own organism and its own action. And we found that the people congregated

[00:05:14] to the most of what the biggest need was, it was for young creatives, young leaders, young pastors.

[00:05:21] And so that's just who we began targeting over that time. And just myself being so highly

[00:05:26] integrated into Christian hip hop space has just made sense to really lend towards and

[00:05:30] pastor those artists. And so that's what we try to develop. And that's what we try to work

[00:05:34] towards really people and I don't know if the word urban context, but urban context.

[00:05:39] Because that's where I live. I live in the hood. And that's where I've been. And so we want to speak

[00:05:42] to those people. And I think it's a kind of a small subset when you talk about young African

[00:05:48] Americans in Christian in the ministry in music, but still urban still have edge. A lot of people

[00:05:55] will look like I'm your neighbor, youth pastor, right? Like I don't know that I look like

[00:05:58] that many neighborhood youth pastors across the country. And so for the people that look

[00:06:03] like me and look like you, like how do I speak to them? How do I develop them? And then how do I

[00:06:08] help others be able to speak to them also? So it's not just about speaking to them directly. It's

[00:06:12] about creating other lines of communication and channels to be able to speak to them.

[00:06:16] That's good. How many years now?

[00:06:18] We think it's eight. It's kind of hard because of the Thanos snap that happened

[00:06:23] in the middle of it being the vid. So three years we lost and one year we did it.

[00:06:29] So we lost two years because of the pandemic. And so I kind of lost track. I don't really pay

[00:06:35] out of actually don't really care that much to pay attention, but I think this is year eight.

[00:06:37] I always ask my team it would be year 10. But I'm just proud of the fact that we're still

[00:06:42] standing. And then again, longevity is underrated. But when we look at stuff that's

[00:06:47] that can really impact specifically our culture in urban Christian music,

[00:06:51] there's not a lot of events like that. So there is there is flavorfest still.

[00:06:56] Thank God. Legacy is kind of coming back. Kingdom Choice is there. But there's not a lot of things

[00:07:03] that are just geared towards cultivating Christian hip hop culture. So I'm super excited and

[00:07:08] enthused and love the fact that I'm able to do something like that. And that's how I know that

[00:07:12] it's worth it because I could do another conference that's really CCM or just a traditional

[00:07:17] bring in a giant preacher that everybody knows, bring in elevation worship and sell

[00:07:21] 5000 tickets. That could be done. But then it's like, all right, what if I just did something

[00:07:26] specifically for Christian hip hop and specifically for young urban creatives? Like

[00:07:30] and you fill that room with people, is there a hunger for that? And so every year that we do that,

[00:07:34] it feels very edifying. It feels very much worth it, even though it's very challenging because

[00:07:38] again, it's a small subset of music. Yeah, it's not a it's not a million Christian hip hop

[00:07:42] fans out there. And so to be able to do that is great. Well, I've been there three times,

[00:07:47] I think, and it's done with excellence. What helped you develop the team that you have and

[00:07:53] has kept that team in place? I think I wish they were here to speak for themselves. But I think

[00:07:59] I think a lot of it is consistency. Being someone who's dependable, having a clear vision.

[00:08:06] If you're going to follow along with what I do with elevation,

[00:08:09] but you have to buckle your seatbelt and really have big faith and be willing to put

[00:08:14] yourself out there as my team, the people who work with me, I'm not going to name

[00:08:16] your names because I might forget one of them. But they're also integral in making my chaos make

[00:08:21] sense and trying to contain it, because I'm a vision guy. I don't really, I'm not a big detail

[00:08:26] person. I'm a big picture. I'm a macro person. So I have to surround myself knowingly with

[00:08:32] micro people. Right? Knowing my own weaknesses, even though daylight as an accountant.

[00:08:37] Do you? Yeah, I didn't know that. I would have never guessed that.

[00:08:39] It's ridiculous. I would have never...

[00:08:41] I don't look like an accountant.

[00:08:46] You don't come across as an accountant. It's not about the look. I've talked to you a lot of times,

[00:08:50] man. I would have never guessed accountant. Yeah, accountant. Absolutely not.

[00:08:54] Finance for the past 10 plus years. I cannot see you in a 10th year.

[00:08:56] Just sitting there balancing journal entries, transactions. People trust me with their money.

[00:09:01] No, that's the shocker for me today. That's it. I don't know why. I don't know how. But

[00:09:05] by the grace of God, yeah, I've been doing accounting at Boston University for years.

[00:09:09] Look at that. Look at that. So that shows you that left brain, right brain thing.

[00:09:12] Left brain, right brain is real. I'm very much left and right brain. But so my team is a lot more

[00:09:18] of those micro detail oriented people who can keep me stabilized. Because when I go into elevation,

[00:09:24] let me tell you what it's like, me playing in elevation. It's been a different place every

[00:09:28] year pretty much. Every year I've come. Every year has been a different spot.

[00:09:32] In every year, in every aspect of the conference, I try to lean on the Lord

[00:09:37] to sift through stuff for me. Like even where it's going to be, how it's going to be there,

[00:09:42] who's going to be there. I usually send out a bunch of invitations for people like,

[00:09:46] hey, I'm not going to pay you full price. But if you actually really care about the culture,

[00:09:50] you want to come make an impact, let's do it. I'm trying to make it reasonable. I'm

[00:09:53] not going to waste your time. But whoever comes comes. And so a lot of times what that means

[00:09:58] is I don't even know who's going to be there. Like right now, if you ask me who's for sure

[00:10:03] going to be at elevation this year, I got like, yeah, I'll be there. I got 50% of the lineup.

[00:10:09] That's dope. And so we live on this fringe of like, if you're going to rock with me on this,

[00:10:14] like you really have to be fearless. And I approach it in a completely fearless manner.

[00:10:18] Like I'll have glimpses of what I feel like of what the Lord is going to show me is going to happen

[00:10:21] there every year. But knowing exactly what's going to happen, I don't even seek to know that.

[00:10:25] I kind of just go in there and I'm like, Lord, what are you going to do? This is going

[00:10:28] to be crazy. Sometimes I'm in the back watching. I remember last year for a great example,

[00:10:32] at the worship session, what the Lord showed me was that we were going to do a worship songwriting

[00:10:38] workshop. And then that was going to bleed somehow into a concert. Right? And so I knew who was supposed

[00:10:43] to be performing at the concert. But I didn't really know when and how that makes sense. So the

[00:10:48] people who are coming to me before the concert was supposed to start, they're like, when's the

[00:10:51] concert start? I'm like after worship, after the songwriting, they're like, what time? I'm like,

[00:10:56] when that ends? And so the DJ is like, what does that mean? The sound man is like, what

[00:11:03] does that mean? And I'm like, that's what it means. When this ends, this is going to turn into that.

[00:11:08] And so the beautiful thing is I got to explain it to my team two months in advance and say,

[00:11:12] hey, this is what's going to happen. And I don't know what that looks like.

[00:11:15] That's crazy. And they're like, oh, okay.

[00:11:18] And then so when it happened, they're like, oh, like so Scooty Woff is supposed to perform.

[00:11:23] He comes up to me by the sound booth and he's like, so what's like you want me to rap? Because

[00:11:27] this doesn't feel like a rap environment. I'm like, no, probably not. And then the DJ is like,

[00:11:31] yo, should you want me to go up on stage and get my table set up and start spinning music?

[00:11:36] I was like, you'll be able to tell. So you're really fluid. Oh, man, fluid. Okay.

[00:11:40] So I'm like, we'll see what the Lord does. We'll see how we'll see what the vibe is like.

[00:11:43] And then somebody was up there worshiping and they did spontaneous. They had people

[00:11:46] coming up from the audience singing songs spontaneously. And then one of the worship

[00:11:51] leaders was up there singing. And it was just a point where I was like, all right,

[00:11:54] Scooty now it's time for you to go. Interesting. And then he went up there and Scooty did not rap.

[00:11:58] He didn't rap at King of Choice Awards. Yeah, it was yeah, he moved with that move. Okay,

[00:12:04] but basically you're basically saying then you create the scaffolding, but then you leave room

[00:12:08] after the spirit to move. It's not a conference. It's not like built in. Maybe that's the

[00:12:14] Pentecostal Convention aspect of it. But it's just like, I want to be able to move like

[00:12:18] that. And it's terrifying. Elevation comes with turbulence. Elevation comes with fear.

[00:12:25] But we're at the highest point in the plane and it rocks a little bit and it's nervous.

[00:12:28] And you can't see like my flight today, I looked out the windows because there was

[00:12:32] a lot of turbulence and we did one of them big dips where you'd be like, I thought I was not

[00:12:36] a friend. Well, you also were flying Frontier. I flew Frontier. So I'm a man full of faith.

[00:12:39] I'm just joking. Hey, Frontier, if y'all want to sponsor, we're down. Y'all need a sponsor.

[00:12:43] Y'all need a sponsor Frontier, holler at me. But so it was one of those moments where the plane

[00:12:47] really rocked. I looked out the window and I couldn't see anything. And it's just like,

[00:12:52] do you still trust that the plane is going to land now that you can't see anything or now

[00:12:55] you're scared because you can't see? Like would have seen the ground and everything there

[00:12:59] made me feel better? Maybe. But when we're in elevation, like you can't always see when you

[00:13:03] look out the window, you know, always know what's there, but you got to trust that you're

[00:13:06] going to get to the destination. That's good. A lot of years, the Lord just tells me the

[00:13:09] destination. He doesn't tell me what's going to happen. Particularly now, knowing that

[00:13:12] you're an accountant, when you go into this conference every year, how are you feeling

[00:13:16] in terms of just that the investment and the return? Like how are you thinking about that?

[00:13:20] I'm going not expecting to make any money, hoping to break even and being willing to sacrifice it.

[00:13:27] Hoping to break even. Hoping to break even. When do you feel like you feel assured?

[00:13:31] Is it a day or two before the conference? Is it really not until the conference is happening?

[00:13:35] When do you feel like, yeah, we'll break even? Oh, no, I don't always get that feeling.

[00:13:41] I'm hoping to break even. Last year, we did not break even. Last year,

[00:13:49] no, we took a hit last year, but last year was also, I felt like the one of the most

[00:13:52] gratifying experiences ever. And so it's like, I find it interesting to think about the things

[00:13:58] that we're willing to pay for. And I'm like, Lord, if I was to tithe $5,000 in my company's

[00:14:04] business revenue to do this conference, could I look at it like that? Am I willing to make

[00:14:07] a $5,000 sacrifice to make this event happen and for it to be an amazing experience, even if it's

[00:14:12] for 200 people? Are you willing to do that? Or is this the only way that you're going to do this

[00:14:18] is if you make money from it. I've never gone into elevation thinking of making money.

[00:14:22] Most concerts that I promoted throughout my career of promoting concerts and booking shows,

[00:14:27] I didn't go in thinking I was going to make money. I was going and thinking about the purpose

[00:14:31] of the show. Yeah, like do I want to put on a great event? I want to bring great shows

[00:14:37] to Boston because shows are not happening in Boston. And I feel confident in saying 10,

[00:14:41] 15 years ago when we first started doing concerts, concerts weren't happening in Boston

[00:14:45] at all. And so during that time, I feel like we laid a really strong foundation for there

[00:14:49] to be events and now a lot more shows do come to Boston. There's a lot more touring artists

[00:14:54] and acts. And I will take some credit for that. I'm willing to say like we helped

[00:14:58] build that foundation. Absolutely. I will say that a lot of events that didn't do

[00:15:02] non-secular shows and weren't doing Christian shows were willing to take a chance because

[00:15:06] they knew that I was a promoter and that there was a way to help it make money and all of our

[00:15:10] shows made money so that they were more willing to take on more shows. There was a lot of tours

[00:15:14] that they would have said no to before that they will call me. There's artists out there who got

[00:15:18] to do shows in Boston where the venues call me and say, well, this make money? Can this make

[00:15:23] money? And I had to green light it before they would say yes. The interesting thing to

[00:15:27] your point of taking credit, man, is speak to some of the artists that have blossomed

[00:15:31] since coming through an elevation cover. Man, I think last year is a great example because

[00:15:36] I had Scooty Wop and Not Clyde and Miles Minnick were all there at the same time.

[00:15:40] And I had them stay together in a residence together and they spent the whole time building

[00:15:47] and growing their relationship. What people don't realize about elevation is you come to

[00:15:51] elevation even as an artist, the goal is for you to be touched, for you to experience something,

[00:15:56] for you to be moved. So when somebody like Miles comes and he's having a great year last

[00:15:59] year, and I'm like, yo, can you come to elevation and do something? Like he came

[00:16:04] sacrificially, but he was blessed. I'm not looking for something and I'm not looking to make

[00:16:09] money as I just said. And we didn't make money. But so I'm still gonna make sure you have an

[00:16:13] extraordinary time that you're blessed that you get paid something. And like I said,

[00:16:18] those guys left blessed. Miles, and I feel like I could say this, Miles was like, yo,

[00:16:23] I saw some stuff here at elevation, I got to implement at Glowfest. Like you and I impacted

[00:16:28] the way that he's going to do Glowfest. That's good. You know, when I saw it was

[00:16:31] I went to Glowfest right after that and I could see it like, yeah, he added in an element of

[00:16:34] worship and stuff like that because he saw it could be effective. And he saw how we did it at

[00:16:38] elevation. That's good. And it was rocked by that even I bet Scootie's performance at the Kingdom

[00:16:41] Choice Awards is impacted by what he felt at elevation. Because I'm like, yo, you don't go

[00:16:46] in there with your preconceived notions of what you're going to do at a performance,

[00:16:50] not as a Christian artist. You got to go in there just like any other pastor,

[00:16:54] any other minister, you got to come in and check the room. You got to see what the Lord

[00:16:57] says about your set. That's good. A lot of artists coming in there. I know a lot of

[00:17:00] artists who do adjust their set when they get to the venues, which is great. And a lot of

[00:17:04] artists need to take more time to adjust their sets based on what the Holy Spirit is telling them.

[00:17:08] That's good, man. That's so good. You'll be like, what are people,

[00:17:11] when I walk into a space, what does this audience need to hear? Out of my catalog,

[00:17:15] what do I got that they need to hear or what do I need to touch up so that I can make

[00:17:19] a great deal of that? I'm yielding to the Holy Spirit. You got to yield to it.

[00:17:22] As Christian artists, like, yeah, you got bops, like, yeah, you got stuff that

[00:17:25] people expected here. But I see, like, school he didn't do, he didn't do spin back. He might not

[00:17:29] have did that. Yeah, you don't always do it there because there's a confluence of that.

[00:17:34] He sang. He sang, man. Because he's a worshiper. He sang, bro. And it was good.

[00:17:38] And it's good. It was good. Yeah. He sang. It was unexpected, but it was really good.

[00:17:43] Something you said, man, you said there's not a million Christian hip hop listeners or audience.

[00:17:49] Say more about that. I mean, I'm saying in Holy Culture Radio, so I can't tell you

[00:17:53] nothing. You couldn't quantify from me with metrics. But I mean, I think if we look at the

[00:17:58] pool of audience and the pool of listeners that we have on Holy Culture Radio and we compare to

[00:18:03] the pool of listeners and audience that you might hear on Sway in the Morning Show or Shady Aftermath,

[00:18:07] whatever Hymn Nims channel is, and we look at the unique listeners. I'm sure there's...

[00:18:12] So I'm going to venture into Deep Waters because I'm talking to a radio guy and say,

[00:18:17] I think that Christian Radio in Christian Hip Hop probably has more devout return locked in listeners

[00:18:24] and then you probably get more like unique listeners happening in a monthly timeframe on one of those

[00:18:30] other stations. Meaning, you'll have somebody who might be like in the car in a rental and they

[00:18:34] don't know what to do. They'll turn on Shady Aftermath and just listen to it casually as a

[00:18:37] unique listener. What we'll find for you is probably die hard. People lock in every time

[00:18:42] when we'll listen to that station every day because when you're a Christian and you're locked

[00:18:45] in and you're a CHH fan, you probably don't have that really diverse catalog of different

[00:18:50] stuff that you're listening to. Somebody like me personally, I don't listen to anything but CHH

[00:18:54] in gospel and some CCM. So I've got three stations. If I'm secular and I don't care and

[00:19:00] all I listen to is Drake, Drake's on every station so it doesn't matter. So there could

[00:19:04] be 20 different stations I choose to add any given moment. I don't have 20 stations I

[00:19:07] can listen to at any given moment. I'm not listening to Drake. I don't care what's going

[00:19:11] on. I don't care what's going on. I don't care what's going on. He got beef right now. If I hear

[00:19:16] his diss track, it's because somebody played it for me. I heard his last diss track. PB played

[00:19:21] it for me. Shout out to PB. I wouldn't know what's going on and I wouldn't care. I still barely care

[00:19:26] but for all y'all who are tapped in, I'm sorry. I know the culture. I also, you know what?

[00:19:30] Stop there for a second though man. I always feel conflicted. Like as a media guy, some days

[00:19:34] I feel like I should know but I don't care to know. And then I'm blessed when I think about

[00:19:39] I've got 18 shows. So that means at least 18 show hosts and DJs and so they gotta cover.

[00:19:46] So just so you know sometimes when I look ignorant about certain things happening in a

[00:19:50] secular hip hop, it's by choice. Yeah. For me it's by choice. I pay attention to the news.

[00:19:55] So I'll pay attention to headlines. I'll read stories but I won't listen to music.

[00:19:59] I'll watch a lot of guys' interviews too. I will do that too. I will read some of

[00:20:03] the stories. So we're not ignorant and we're not trying to be, you know, what is it?

[00:20:07] So heavily minded saying so. Yeah, be separate. No, it'll be good. Yeah.

[00:20:10] Yeah. Like that's not what that means but so we're not trying to be that.

[00:20:14] Right. But we're also just not ingesting the food.

[00:20:16] I don't want the content. Yeah. I don't look at the menu. I know what every restaurant is

[00:20:19] serving on their menu but I'm not gonna go in there. Well said. I love that bro.

[00:20:23] I don't want to get sick. That's gonna be a clip. It's gonna be a meme.

[00:20:26] Yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one.

[00:20:28] Praise the Lord. We've watched the gospel industry contract I think two, three years in

[00:20:31] a row now and when you talk to people about why it's contracting I think the answer is

[00:20:35] always the same. The gospel industry continues to appeal to aging and dying demographic.

[00:20:42] Well if you want to bring, you know, younger folks in the church, new wineskins for new wine.

[00:20:45] Yeah. We're here to be partners. We're not trying to replace you.

[00:20:48] I think the unfortunate part about, I don't know, unfortunate necessarily but

[00:20:52] the driving factor ends up being well we also have to realize that this is the church.

[00:20:58] Right. This is the church. This is the church's mentality.

[00:21:01] That maybe even the black church is just getting older by itself and thus the music of the sound

[00:21:08] of the black church is also getting older by itself. And there's, I see a lot in our area in

[00:21:14] New England, there's not an embracing of young leadership in that young leadership having

[00:21:21] that young sound. You know it kind of just, to be honest, just in general.

[00:21:25] Yeah. I say that as a correlation. As long as the church is here, the music and the sound

[00:21:30] that comes from it is going to be at the same place. The sound is not going to leave

[00:21:33] where the structure is, where the church body is. So like, you know, in the CCM church might be a

[00:21:39] younger, my skew younger, the black gospel church, like my church in my community,

[00:21:43] the mom and pop churches across, you know, New England, across Boston.

[00:21:48] I see all their leaders being 70 years old. That's good. Excellent point.

[00:21:53] And I'm going to be listening to rap.

[00:21:54] And let's just say this for all of us. We're all getting older, a little longer in the tooth.

[00:21:59] We have to have succession. We have to have people to come behind us. Like, don't be the bishop that,

[00:22:04] you know, while you're on your hospital bed, decide who succeeds you.

[00:22:08] We all need to be planting those seeds now.

[00:22:10] Of course succession plans.

[00:22:11] Yeah. That's too late.

[00:22:12] It's not the best plan.

[00:22:14] Sometimes the church was retirement plan is death.

[00:22:18] And old corporate life is like, that's a forcing function. We don't want that forcing

[00:22:21] function. I mean, plan it out. And so, and you know, you want more life in the church.

[00:22:25] I don't think anybody argues that. Right? And so take the time to partner with us,

[00:22:30] learn it. Don't let the misunderstanding or lack of understanding of certain words and rhythms

[00:22:35] be the barrier. You know what I mean? Elevation conference this year,

[00:22:38] you add a new element to it. Talk about that.

[00:22:42] So we, I'm taking a crazy endeavor.

[00:22:45] And I'm trying to go further in the hole.

[00:22:47] Yeah, further. Right. My accountants, speaking of accounting, I got two accountants.

[00:22:51] They're both just like, what are you doing?

[00:22:53] Yeah. What is up with this dude?

[00:22:54] And they're trying to figure out how to make the money make sense.

[00:22:57] Shout out to them. Shout out to Alu and Liz. I will say y'all by name.

[00:23:00] Thank you for correcting my paths.

[00:23:03] But so we're instituting something called the Elevation Project.

[00:23:06] So the Elevation Project is a dream that I've had for probably like five years now.

[00:23:10] Was really unattainable at one point, but the idea is we're going to hand select 10 artists

[00:23:16] based on applications that we're going to fly from anywhere in there in the country,

[00:23:20] fly them to Boston for a week long artist development intensive program.

[00:23:24] So they're going to come here, they're going to come to Boston.

[00:23:27] We're going to bring in a bunch of different teachers and instructors on different course

[00:23:30] work material. And we're going to do what we can. They have them as prepared as possible

[00:23:35] for being successful artists, not just successful Christian artists,

[00:23:39] but being holistically successful artists. So we're going to talk pub,

[00:23:42] we're going to talk radio, we're going to talk accounting, finance,

[00:23:46] marketing, social media strategies, what it's like to be a Christian in the market.

[00:23:50] What are some of the roadblocks and the challenges that we face?

[00:23:52] But what are some of the stupid discussions that we have as Christian artists that we don't

[00:23:56] really need to be having about like what's a Christian artist and what are you allowed to do?

[00:23:59] You're flying them in.

[00:24:00] We're actually going to fly them in. So it's basically an all expense paid trip.

[00:24:04] We're not taking you to lobster every night, but we're going to help you with your meals

[00:24:08] with lodging, flight, some meals and then the coursework.

[00:24:13] And we're going to throw some other cool activities and stuff in there too,

[00:24:16] because I like to have a good time. So I think we got our 10. We're going to start

[00:24:20] announcing them. And then we're going to do more about announcing who the instructors are going

[00:24:24] to be, who are some of the people that are going to be on the panels. We're probably going to

[00:24:27] spend $3,500 to $5,000 on each student that makes it into the program.

[00:24:33] I was doing a math in my head. And so yeah.

[00:24:36] Just a flight and a lodging. I mean already a lodging.

[00:24:38] Right unless you've got them bunk beds in the back of the event facility,

[00:24:43] you know, we got them in a nice spot. We got some cool spaces we're going to use,

[00:24:46] some cool restaurants and experiences we're going to do. And then I'm bringing in speakers.

[00:24:49] So I'm paying for all the speakers to come. All the speakers are going to come in and be

[00:24:53] involved in the program. So it's going to be a really unique experience. I don't think anybody's

[00:24:57] ever just, I don't think anybody's done this before that I know of, especially in our space,

[00:25:02] it's artist development at a high level. I've never heard about this in our space.

[00:25:04] Yeah. And in a secular space, they don't really do it either.

[00:25:06] Yeah, I've never heard this.

[00:25:06] So there's not too many things to compare to.

[00:25:10] Right.

[00:25:10] But I think it's going to be amazing. I hope to be, hope it to be game changing.

[00:25:13] I hope at least, you know, to impact at least half the students come out

[00:25:17] being really prepared for market and maybe a few of them will break.

[00:25:20] Yeah.

[00:25:20] You already said you're going to be involved in, in a special way that we still not telling anybody.

[00:25:25] That's right.

[00:25:25] That's right.

[00:25:26] Holy coach is going to be involved.

[00:25:27] Rapzilla is involved.

[00:25:28] Track. Same thing. Do your research.

[00:25:29] Ask the people who won last year what Holy Coach did for us.

[00:25:32] Yeah.

[00:25:32] It's just a good job.

[00:25:33] I mean, and that brings us to the plug because the plug is going to happen again

[00:25:36] this year, May 31st, the Elevation Conference.

[00:25:38] There you go.

[00:25:38] And the plug has broken multiple artists over the years.

[00:25:41] People don't realize like just from attending the plug, 50 people probably played records last year,

[00:25:46] which is crazy.

[00:25:47] Right. We had 50 artists show up to Boston to play their records for us.

[00:25:51] And the panel was dope.

[00:25:52] I didn't even, you didn't even tell me who was going to be on the panel with me on the plug.

[00:25:55] It was myself, Aaron and what's the name from BT.

[00:25:59] Cam.

[00:25:59] Cam. I mean it was dope panel man.

[00:26:01] It was good.

[00:26:02] Yeah. We have PB, PB's in the building.

[00:26:04] Yeah, PB. Yep.

[00:26:05] Ray Rock was in the building.

[00:26:06] Ray Rock was helping us host.

[00:26:08] And so we got all these artists who come in and they play their records for a whole room full of

[00:26:12] other artists.

[00:26:13] So then you start building relationships with other artists to not take the time to

[00:26:18] get their radio, get their song played for you is idiotic.

[00:26:21] Like I don't know why you would not want to do that.

[00:26:23] Like if I was an artist, I'm flying wherever you're at and I'm trying to get my music

[00:26:26] played for you.

[00:26:27] Aaron, who's a genius when it comes to events and planning.

[00:26:29] And then to be able to play your music for someone who directly works at BET.

[00:26:33] BET. Directing the gospel video channel and all that stuff for BET.

[00:26:38] Yeah. This is wild.

[00:26:40] And then like I'm the number one booking agent in the space.

[00:26:42] Absolutely.

[00:26:43] These are the opportunities in our space that I feel like people take for granted

[00:26:47] to be able to come in and be able to hit all those markers to be like,

[00:26:50] yo, I could see somebody from radio.

[00:26:52] Yes.

[00:26:52] From event planning, from booking and from television all at one time.

[00:26:56] We talked about some of this on our drive here man.

[00:26:59] I feel like sometimes when we look at a lot of different businesses,

[00:27:02] there's a part of the recipe that helps business be successful.

[00:27:05] Right? There's always the, you're an accountant.

[00:27:08] You want predictable numbers?

[00:27:09] Yeah.

[00:27:10] You want to know like, okay, in a certain business industry and vertical,

[00:27:14] you know the return should be 3X or 5X over 12 months or 18 months so on and so forth.

[00:27:20] I think that's one that's incredibly difficult to do in an artist and creative space.

[00:27:25] Right?

[00:27:26] But what happens is people can often look at a pattern they think they see developing

[00:27:30] and say, I want to follow that pattern.

[00:27:32] To that point, are there any patterns that you say, you know what?

[00:27:36] There is some credence to this one, that one or this one.

[00:27:40] Like are there any things that you're seeing right now that you say, yeah,

[00:27:42] that's worth following a little bit.

[00:27:44] That's worth dabbling into.

[00:27:46] We're not really.

[00:27:46] As far as marketing strategies and stuff.

[00:27:48] Just even just developing as an artist.

[00:27:50] Take any artist that's been, you know, pits in the round for a while and whether

[00:27:53] it's chasing the six-week Spotify algorithm or whether it's praying spray,

[00:27:59] praying, excuse me.

[00:28:01] What do you see that you go, yeah, I think those people doing those things are onto something.

[00:28:07] Oh, yeah, hard workers.

[00:28:08] Yeah.

[00:28:11] I think 9 out of 10 times they're hard workers and they have thick skin.

[00:28:16] You know, they're willing to put their money up and really grind for a long period of time.

[00:28:21] I think once you have those formulas and you do that for 10 years,

[00:28:25] if you do that for 10 years and you're grinding and you're consistent with your

[00:28:28] content, your creation and you're continuing to develop as an artist

[00:28:33] and you want to put money up for certain things, if you're not having success after that,

[00:28:37] probably I would wager you might.

[00:28:40] Maybe your music is just not good.

[00:28:41] We got a, we got, all right, bro.

[00:28:43] You just said a couple of things that I think we just got back up on real quick, bro.

[00:28:47] I hate to make it sound so matter of fact.

[00:28:48] Yeah, we're not skimming over this.

[00:28:50] Listen, we're going to dig in.

[00:28:51] First of all, you said 10 years.

[00:28:54] You know how many people are probably passing out just thinking about 10 years?

[00:28:57] Oh yeah.

[00:28:58] Do you think hard worker, who's the name that comes to mind?

[00:29:03] Three names when you say hard worker and not at the KB LaCray level.

[00:29:07] Let's go next level.

[00:29:09] I don't want to insult somebody by saying they're not at the KB LaCray level.

[00:29:11] Okay, I'm sorry.

[00:29:12] I'll say.

[00:29:13] Let me say this way, not on national tour right now.

[00:29:15] Yeah, not a national tour.

[00:29:16] Um, I don't know how to, I'm gonna have trouble just differentiating that,

[00:29:20] but I'll say somebody a random name although I'll say no big deal,

[00:29:24] credibly hard worker.

[00:29:26] Bonday, work ethic is amazing and then the business acumen to go with it.

[00:29:33] I think whatever it was, whatever it is that she decided to do,

[00:29:36] she would have been successful.

[00:29:37] There's certain people like that.

[00:29:38] Yeah, hard work.

[00:29:38] Like Dilley's just a super hard work.

[00:29:40] He's locked in, he's always creating, always on socials.

[00:29:44] Derek Minor.

[00:29:45] Derek's absolutely.

[00:29:46] Derek during COVID probably made more money than everybody else.

[00:29:51] When everybody else started making less money, he started making more money.

[00:29:53] I'm trying to tell you Derek did some incredible things to me.

[00:29:56] Yeah, publishing what he did on the publishing side.

[00:29:58] Even just recently taking all those people that's universal,

[00:30:01] getting pub deals for artists who've never sat in a pub boom before.

[00:30:04] Probably didn't know what publishing was before he called them.

[00:30:07] Like opening those doors.

[00:30:08] Like I think that that's incredible.

[00:30:11] And then on the other side, even just like the business side,

[00:30:13] I would say Doc Watson, Ryan in incredibly hard, Miles.

[00:30:17] Miles lives on.

[00:30:19] Miles, I can't get Miles out of my feed.

[00:30:22] I have to block Miles if I don't want Miles out of my feed

[00:30:24] because Miles is always on there and he's always engaging.

[00:30:26] He's working.

[00:30:27] He's working, working, working, working, working the algorithm.

[00:30:30] Like there's people who are just working

[00:30:32] and they will have success whether you like their music or not.

[00:30:35] But they're just working so hard.

[00:30:36] It's like unavoidable.

[00:30:38] I say for me, I'm a hard worker that became unavoidable.

[00:30:42] I got all my business connections from going across the country,

[00:30:46] flying to every show that I could and showing up and helping

[00:30:49] and building, showing up to people's shows, helping them with their shows.

[00:30:52] That's how I got cool with Doc and Dirk.

[00:30:53] I will fly out to everything that they was at

[00:30:56] and introduce myself over and over again.

[00:30:58] Like it's me again.

[00:30:58] It's me again.

[00:30:59] It's me again.

[00:30:59] It's me again.

[00:31:00] And they did a show out South by Southwest.

[00:31:02] I showed up.

[00:31:03] I was like, what can I do?

[00:31:04] They're like, you do shows?

[00:31:05] Yeah, I do shows.

[00:31:06] Okay, can you help with the production?

[00:31:07] By the end of the show, I was running the stage.

[00:31:10] Like that's work.

[00:31:11] That's good.

[00:31:12] That's not nobody.

[00:31:12] That's not me in the DMs.

[00:31:13] That's not me just expecting somebody to give me

[00:31:16] a handout.

[00:31:16] I don't have no respect for people who expect handouts

[00:31:18] because I didn't expect to hand out.

[00:31:19] So you spent your own money?

[00:31:20] Yeah, that's why I said 10 years in the game.

[00:31:22] I said to get successful at RIS.

[00:31:24] Yeah, I'm 15 at 20.

[00:31:25] And I'm just now making good money or like I'm cool now

[00:31:29] where it all makes sense.

[00:31:30] But 15 years in the game, a grind and to get to that point.

[00:31:34] Do you think it's still sometimes this phenomenon

[00:31:36] of we think people pop up overnight when in all reality

[00:31:39] they can work for four minutes?

[00:31:40] As part of the misconception is the industry,

[00:31:42] part of the industry's marketing method

[00:31:44] is to make sure that if you're like an artist,

[00:31:46] you're single.

[00:31:47] Even if you're married, portray yourself as single.

[00:31:49] So everybody can be a sex symbol and everybody can get both genders

[00:31:53] to appeal to your music.

[00:31:55] And then to make you look young is always,

[00:31:57] it's just, these are people don't realize

[00:31:59] that these are tactics of the industry.

[00:32:00] Right.

[00:32:01] Right.

[00:32:01] Like people in the movies who are playing high school students,

[00:32:04] they'd be 40.

[00:32:04] Right.

[00:32:06] Exactly.

[00:32:06] It's because of makeup and a hat.

[00:32:08] Exactly.

[00:32:08] Like I'm 40.

[00:32:09] Like I got my hat backwards.

[00:32:11] I took five years off my life.

[00:32:12] Exactly.

[00:32:12] Just my hat backwards.

[00:32:13] Exactly.

[00:32:14] But you know what I mean?

[00:32:14] So people in the industry who are thinking that there's overnight success,

[00:32:17] you're looking at Kendrick's, like Kendrick looks like a young dude.

[00:32:20] Kendrick's like about 40.

[00:32:21] Yeah.

[00:32:22] Most of people don't hit their stride until they're 30.

[00:32:24] Right.

[00:32:24] Most people don't put out their best work

[00:32:27] until they get into their 30.

[00:32:28] You know what I mean?

[00:32:28] Like the first couple albums you might have one that gets you pop

[00:32:31] but you don't hit your blueprint until you're like 30.

[00:32:33] You don't want to championship in the NBA until you're 30.

[00:32:36] You get, what's that, 28, 29 is like the year where

[00:32:38] most players, great players when they're first chip.

[00:32:41] Jordan, Bron, Yokech,

[00:32:44] there's like very few exceptions.

[00:32:45] If you look at the age, so people take for granted the age part

[00:32:49] and because of social media, everybody on social is young.

[00:32:52] Right?

[00:32:52] Right.

[00:32:53] So you expect, while you're young, you should be able to do it too.

[00:32:56] Yeah.

[00:32:56] But if you don't realize there's 250 million influencers

[00:32:59] on these social channels, yeah, it is 50 out of big.

[00:33:03] But that's a .0001%.

[00:33:06] Hey listen, don't skip the data.

[00:33:08] That's like Spotify numbers.

[00:33:09] That's like Spotify numbers.

[00:33:10] Oh man.

[00:33:11] It's like playing Pop Warner ball back in the day

[00:33:13] when you're in a neighborhood, right?

[00:33:14] And you play everyone played on the Pop Warner team.

[00:33:17] And some of us got to play in high school, very few to college.

[00:33:21] And if you knew someone who wanted to NFL, that was a neighborhood victory.

[00:33:25] Yeah.

[00:33:26] Okay.

[00:33:26] And I think you have to think about the same thing with influencers.

[00:33:28] Just because there's low barriers to entries,

[00:33:30] please research the numbers.

[00:33:31] If you just search how many people are successful influencers,

[00:33:37] you'll pull up some charts and it will show you.

[00:33:39] Okay.

[00:33:40] Clearly.

[00:33:41] And how do you think those people work?

[00:33:42] Like the dude Kai, I don't even follow him like that,

[00:33:44] but I'm pretty sure you just stream 24 hours a day

[00:33:47] for an extensive period of time.

[00:33:48] Absolutely.

[00:33:49] And you do two videos on IG a week

[00:33:51] and you feel like you're supposed to blow.

[00:33:52] Anybody I've seen talk about it says it's minimal four videos a day.

[00:33:57] Minimal.

[00:33:57] Most people are not built for that.

[00:33:58] Minimal.

[00:33:59] Most people don't want to edit four videos a day.

[00:34:01] Minimal.

[00:34:01] Yeah.

[00:34:02] Yeah.

[00:34:02] That's just not real life.

[00:34:03] And if people just think that, you know,

[00:34:04] I'm going to drop one and it's going to go viral.

[00:34:05] They drop one and it doesn't go viral and they get discouraged.

[00:34:08] Right.

[00:34:08] No, you got to be willing.

[00:34:09] If you're not willing to invest in whatever it is

[00:34:11] that your dream is, like I said, for 10 years without seeing fruit.

[00:34:14] Right.

[00:34:15] Do it for 10 years to be able to get this stuff to start working.

[00:34:18] If you're not willing to do that, then you're not really hungry.

[00:34:21] You're not hungry.

[00:34:21] Or at least you're not hungry for that.

[00:34:22] You got a dream.

[00:34:23] You know, it's just a dream.

[00:34:25] Yeah.

[00:34:25] You're not hungry for that.

[00:34:26] That's good, man.

[00:34:27] What's one for the artist that'll watch it, man?

[00:34:31] What's one common mistake that if they fixed it,

[00:34:35] could make just magnitude a difference?

[00:34:38] I'll stick to touring because I'm in booking.

[00:34:40] And we kind of touched on it a little bit earlier in our conversation.

[00:34:43] But I think selling out to the church shows for too long is detrimental to a lot of artists

[00:34:49] in our space because it doesn't allow them to create true fans and have a real core

[00:34:53] audience and draw in hard ticket value, hard ticket draws where you know a certain amount

[00:34:58] of people will come to you anywhere and be able to sell a certain amount of tickets.

[00:35:02] So how often does someone call you and say, hey, man, I've been doing this.

[00:35:06] I've got some singles.

[00:35:07] Shoot, I dropped an album.

[00:35:09] Mike, get me booked up.

[00:35:10] All the time.

[00:35:11] And what's your response?

[00:35:12] No.

[00:35:13] Why?

[00:35:14] Because it's unrealistic.

[00:35:16] What makes you unrealistic?

[00:35:17] I'll have artists that haven't put out music in five years pop up and say,

[00:35:20] yo, I'm about to get back into it.

[00:35:23] How can I get some more shows?

[00:35:24] What makes you say it's unrealistic?

[00:35:25] What do you look at and you say this doesn't, this, this, these don't add up?

[00:35:29] My first question is when you're thinking about booking and even like your price points

[00:35:33] and all that stuff and doing shows or when should I tour?

[00:35:36] The answer is always the same.

[00:35:37] Who's checking for you?

[00:35:39] Who looking for you?

[00:35:40] Right.

[00:35:40] Who cares that you ain't did an album in five years?

[00:35:42] Right.

[00:35:43] When you say you're doing a show, go prove yourself.

[00:35:47] Prove it to yourself.

[00:35:48] So I'm going to play the artist.

[00:35:49] I've got 5,000 monthly Spotify listeners.

[00:35:53] They're across these six cities.

[00:35:56] I know those cities.

[00:35:57] These Houston Dallas, this LA, this Atlanta, this Nashville.

[00:36:00] Okay.

[00:36:01] But so how much challenge do you do this?

[00:36:03] Go to any one of those five cities where you have your highest amount

[00:36:06] of monthly listeners every month and do a show and see how many people show up for your show.

[00:36:11] Why did you rattle off those cities?

[00:36:12] Because those are the top five cities.

[00:36:15] Period.

[00:36:15] For everyone.

[00:36:16] Everyone.

[00:36:16] They're not special.

[00:36:19] Oh my God.

[00:36:19] Did y'all hear that?

[00:36:20] It's not you.

[00:36:21] It's not you.

[00:36:22] You hurt someone right now.

[00:36:25] Is that matched with Jauzy?

[00:36:26] For the most part.

[00:36:27] Yeah, of course.

[00:36:28] For the most part.

[00:36:28] It's probably more him than it is you.

[00:36:31] If you listen to one of our spots, if you're a dedicated

[00:36:34] culture radio listener, you'll hear one of those promo spots say a number of cities.

[00:36:39] Houston, Dallas, this that and that.

[00:36:41] Holy culture radio.

[00:36:42] And we picked those because those are the large parts.

[00:36:44] That's where the product is.

[00:36:46] So the four P's of business was a product price place in promotion.

[00:36:53] So your music being popping in those cities, if you're a Christian hip hop artist,

[00:36:59] it probably doesn't have anything to do with you.

[00:37:01] It's just that's where people listening to the music.

[00:37:03] And that's where the highest concentration of those fans are.

[00:37:06] When your top city is Nebraska and you're not from there, it's like, oh shoot,

[00:37:10] like how you getting 20,000 monthly listeners in Nebraska?

[00:37:15] Because nobody's doing that.

[00:37:16] You're getting the same listeners that everybody else gets because

[00:37:19] your fan is a fan of the genre.

[00:37:22] They're not a fan of you.

[00:37:25] So and conversely, if you're in a city like where we're near, Philadelphia,

[00:37:28] which is not one of those cities and your numbers are really banging,

[00:37:31] and it's like, man, you've cultivated a nice market in your hometown.

[00:37:35] It's because you're probably actually an artist.

[00:37:38] Yeah.

[00:37:38] And most probably actually.

[00:37:40] Most people are not actually artists.

[00:37:43] Most people are just these cookie cutter fillings that just fit a type.

[00:37:46] Peace of pride, actually.

[00:37:47] See what happens to you after you have your play, bro?

[00:37:49] I just want to make sure you understand the increase in the energy.

[00:37:55] I have breakfast.

[00:37:56] I have breakfast finally at three o'clock in the afternoon.

[00:37:59] You asked me the good questions now before it was just rattling off some stuff about you.

[00:38:02] But now you guys are going to ask a direct question.

[00:38:05] This is how I talk to artists.

[00:38:06] Because y'all don't need me to lie to you for anything.

[00:38:09] But for you, if you want to be successful,

[00:38:10] there's certain things that you got to do.

[00:38:11] You got to actually be an artist.

[00:38:12] You got to develop your own fans who's checking for you.

[00:38:15] You know how many emails I get where they say,

[00:38:18] I'm looking for an artist for $4,000 who you got.

[00:38:23] They didn't hit me up and say, yo, I'm looking.

[00:38:25] Can I book Jay Bonnie?

[00:38:29] Whatever your name is out there,

[00:38:31] you think people are really checking for you like that?

[00:38:33] Half the time they're not.

[00:38:34] Half the time they just want a Christian hip hop artist.

[00:38:36] Yeah.

[00:38:36] And I can name six people and they'll be like,

[00:38:38] which one of those six are you?

[00:38:39] They don't know them.

[00:38:40] Do they trust in you and your judgment?

[00:38:42] Half the time they don't care.

[00:38:43] Half the time they just like,

[00:38:45] I'll take obviously this one's available.

[00:38:49] These artists that are signed to my label,

[00:38:51] these are artists that I suggest.

[00:38:53] Most of the time they're coded.

[00:38:54] But it's pretty interchangeable.

[00:38:57] Because the artists are pretty interchangeable.

[00:38:59] There's only so many artists with a really,

[00:39:00] really unique concrete brand

[00:39:03] where people will go anywhere in the world to see them.

[00:39:06] And they specifically are just like,

[00:39:07] yo, I got to see this artist and I got to pay to see this artist.

[00:39:10] And you know who those artists are

[00:39:12] because those artists go on tour and they do well.

[00:39:14] And if they're not doing that,

[00:39:15] then that means they probably can't.

[00:39:17] Whoa, Mike.

[00:39:19] Listen, I'm not going to edit this out.

[00:39:21] I mean, this is just raw truth.

[00:39:23] But man, I know it's painful for some folks to hear

[00:39:26] many artists are interchangeable.

[00:39:28] Yeah, most of them are interchangeable.

[00:39:29] It could be anybody in most of these spots.

[00:39:32] I remember one time a DJ said something

[00:39:34] I thought was so interesting.

[00:39:35] I don't want to say his name

[00:39:36] because I didn't get his previous clearance,

[00:39:37] but we were talking about somebody who did a song.

[00:39:39] And as we were in the conversation,

[00:39:41] he said, oh, anyone could have done that song.

[00:39:43] Yeah, he said, you know,

[00:39:46] that song has nothing tied to him and his brand

[00:39:49] or his story or anything.

[00:39:50] Anyone could have done that song.

[00:39:51] And he went on.

[00:39:52] I think he I'm inferring a little bit,

[00:39:54] but it was almost like you need to do songs

[00:39:56] that are memorable relative to you,

[00:39:59] your brand and your story, your audience.

[00:40:02] Right.

[00:40:03] And so I remember when he said that,

[00:40:04] it really, really hit me.

[00:40:05] So for you outside of hard work,

[00:40:08] that consistency, that time investment,

[00:40:11] are there any other things that kind of break

[00:40:13] through that crest where you go?

[00:40:14] Yes, I am willing to work with you.

[00:40:16] I am willing to see what we could do to get you booked

[00:40:20] outside of those factors that you people switch with?

[00:40:22] That's I mean, that's pretty much it.

[00:40:23] And then other factors just like,

[00:40:25] yo, I want to make money too.

[00:40:26] I have a business.

[00:40:26] Right.

[00:40:27] So it's like you for radio, like I love you.

[00:40:29] But if your song stinks, I can't put you on serious.

[00:40:31] That's right.

[00:40:32] Don't get me started.

[00:40:33] Yeah, I can't, right?

[00:40:34] It's not my fault.

[00:40:35] It's nothing is business.

[00:40:37] And so for me, it's like,

[00:40:38] yeah, I'd love to book everybody for shows,

[00:40:40] but everybody's just not checking for most people.

[00:40:42] Do me a favor on that.

[00:40:43] I'm sorry, man.

[00:40:43] It's like tangent.

[00:40:44] Do me a favor.

[00:40:46] Don't also say, well then,

[00:40:48] what you're playing must not have the word in it

[00:40:51] because I won't play, we won't play your song.

[00:40:53] That's not it.

[00:40:54] Yeah.

[00:40:54] I'm going to tell you that's not it right there.

[00:40:56] What we're playing has the word in it,

[00:40:57] whether it's direct, whether it's through storytelling,

[00:41:00] metaphoric, et cetera.

[00:41:01] Don't make this about the songs aren't substantive enough

[00:41:05] because we won't play your song.

[00:41:07] That's not the problem.

[00:41:08] Yeah.

[00:41:08] If you play your music on your Instagram

[00:41:10] and nobody wants to hear it,

[00:41:11] it's not going to change when you play it on fully culture.

[00:41:14] It'll be louder.

[00:41:15] Yeah, it'll be louder.

[00:41:16] But if you play your music for your friends

[00:41:17] and they don't really rock with it,

[00:41:18] do your friends play your music when you're not around?

[00:41:21] When they're not around.

[00:41:22] I'm telling you, I may take some notes.

[00:41:24] Mike's asking some hard questions.

[00:41:26] This is stuff that you guys ask yourself as an artist.

[00:41:28] How many artists do you look at and you're like,

[00:41:30] I see brand.

[00:41:31] Right.

[00:41:31] I know exactly what this guy stands for.

[00:41:34] I know exactly who this guy is.

[00:41:36] Right.

[00:41:37] And a lot of times that kind of leads itself

[00:41:39] to the more of that success and that not being

[00:41:41] interchangeable.

[00:41:41] Drake is just such a specific guy.

[00:41:44] Right.

[00:41:45] When you start categorizing other people by them,

[00:41:48] that's how you know it.

[00:41:48] It's kind of like a Drake sounding dude.

[00:41:51] Like people on CHH should be like,

[00:41:53] yo, what's he sound like?

[00:41:54] You'd be like, well, you got that Drake kind of vibe.

[00:41:57] Like that's when that association comes in.

[00:41:59] You know what I mean?

[00:42:00] That's artistry.

[00:42:02] So one of the things that's interesting, man,

[00:42:04] and I love that you're an accountant by the way now.

[00:42:06] Like I feel like there's something else we have in common.

[00:42:09] We both have this affinity for numbers.

[00:42:11] How would you tell an artist to check their homework?

[00:42:14] Like what would you say in terms of,

[00:42:15] you really want to know where you are?

[00:42:18] Here's some things you should look at.

[00:42:19] Is it the Spotify monthly numbers?

[00:42:20] Is it chart metrics?

[00:42:21] How do you think about it?

[00:42:22] Yeah, chart metrics is better than the Spotify monthly numbers,

[00:42:25] I guess.

[00:42:26] For me, the ultimate barometer is go do your own headline show.

[00:42:32] And who comes to see you?

[00:42:35] In your hometown?

[00:42:36] Your hometown.

[00:42:36] And like I said, even if you want to cheat,

[00:42:38] it's cheating.

[00:42:39] Your hometown, you can't do a live show at your hometown

[00:42:43] and sell it out.

[00:42:44] And I mean, if you're new, I guess I understand that.

[00:42:47] 100 seats, 150 seats.

[00:42:48] Yeah, if you've been doing shows for a long time

[00:42:50] and you can't sell out your hometown.

[00:42:51] Yeah.

[00:42:52] I've been to a spot.

[00:42:53] I'm just showing, I just like numbers.

[00:42:55] Let's do 100.

[00:42:56] I mean, just because I don't want to make anybody cry,

[00:42:58] but like 100 should be easy.

[00:43:01] A layup, that should be a layup.

[00:43:02] Yeah, that should be a layup in your city.

[00:43:04] And I'm like, if you've been doing music for five years,

[00:43:07] let's start, let's give some type of milestone.

[00:43:09] Like you've been doing music for five years for real.

[00:43:11] You got a couple of projects.

[00:43:13] You got an album and two EPs and three singles.

[00:43:17] You can't do a show at your hometown.

[00:43:19] You need to reevaluate things.

[00:43:20] Do people still build up hometown bases though?

[00:43:22] And I'm asking this genuinely, man.

[00:43:24] Again, they need to be.

[00:43:25] They should be.

[00:43:25] Is it still important?

[00:43:26] They have to be.

[00:43:26] It should be important, right?

[00:43:27] That's what I'm saying.

[00:43:28] And that's why I say it's part of the checklist.

[00:43:30] Like you should be able to do hometown shows.

[00:43:32] All the artists out there, I encourage every single

[00:43:34] artist out there to have a consistent hometown show.

[00:43:36] Like I feel that way, but when I say it,

[00:43:38] I feel like I'm old school,

[00:43:39] but I grew up in that era of, man,

[00:43:41] you start with your block.

[00:43:42] Your block rolls with you.

[00:43:44] You spend out to the neighborhood.

[00:43:45] You spend out of your zip code.

[00:43:46] And you like almost concentric circles.

[00:43:48] You can keep widening that, right?

[00:43:49] Social media has kind of helped blur that.

[00:43:53] But you should be able to do that.

[00:43:54] But it's counter to building a good business

[00:43:56] in this, as an artist, right?

[00:43:57] Exactly.

[00:43:57] Yeah.

[00:43:58] Yeah.

[00:43:59] Because it's widespread.

[00:44:00] Like you want to have a concentrated base

[00:44:01] where you know like I can always do this here.

[00:44:03] I can have great success.

[00:44:04] Yeah.

[00:44:04] And again, that's before social media,

[00:44:06] but there was a lot of great artists

[00:44:07] who built their foundation.

[00:44:08] That's why we had the coasts.

[00:44:09] We had West Coast Sound.

[00:44:10] We had Houston Sound.

[00:44:12] Absolutely.

[00:44:12] We had down south sound.

[00:44:13] Because those guys owned their market.

[00:44:16] And that allowed them to do all the other stuff

[00:44:18] because they owned their market.

[00:44:19] And that gave them a sound and a unique position.

[00:44:22] I think Caleb's a good example of that.

[00:44:23] Caleb Gordon's a good example of that.

[00:44:24] Because he was killing the idea of being Floridian, right?

[00:44:29] That was a huge part of his foundation.

[00:44:32] And so he built a firm foundation on that.

[00:44:34] And then expanded and he's doing more stuff all over the place.

[00:44:38] Right.

[00:44:38] But that's a good foundation.

[00:44:40] And that's something that a young artist,

[00:44:41] doing that as a young artist,

[00:44:43] that doesn't really happen that much anymore.

[00:44:45] But if you're the only rapper in Wisconsin, again,

[00:44:48] bro, you own Wisconsin.

[00:44:49] Right.

[00:44:50] Own it.

[00:44:50] Why not own Wisconsin?

[00:44:51] Own it.

[00:44:52] I owned Boston for like 10 years before I stopped doing shows.

[00:44:55] Like, I was like, dudes was just,

[00:44:57] if I wasn't doing shows, they weren't happening.

[00:44:59] And certain people seem like that.

[00:45:00] What's his name?

[00:45:01] The down south shorty or something like that?

[00:45:03] You know what I'm talking about?

[00:45:04] No.

[00:45:04] I can't think of his name, bro.

[00:45:05] Sorry, shorty.

[00:45:06] When I see his videos,

[00:45:08] it looks like it's the whole neighborhood.

[00:45:10] Now whether he's making it look like that or not,

[00:45:13] it always feels that way.

[00:45:14] There's a couple of people who want to come up.

[00:45:16] Then there's other people when they come up,

[00:45:18] you feel a strong social presence,

[00:45:20] but you don't feel a strong community presence.

[00:45:22] Yeah.

[00:45:23] Yeah, it's tough to build like that really song,

[00:45:25] really strong social presence

[00:45:27] that really has a strong brand tied to it.

[00:45:30] And that's the key to, again,

[00:45:31] that's the key to that success.

[00:45:32] That's the key to artistry.

[00:45:33] But then your social physical presence

[00:45:36] should be supplementing that.

[00:45:37] You should have both.

[00:45:38] Why not have both?

[00:45:38] We're just in, I think it's an anxious world

[00:45:39] where people are just gonna go outside.

[00:45:41] Yeah.

[00:45:42] First of all.

[00:45:42] It is an anxious world.

[00:45:43] Yeah, people aren't really going outside, but

[00:45:45] again, if you want to be an artist,

[00:45:46] you should be able to sell out a hometown show.

[00:45:48] Every artist that ever goes on tour,

[00:45:50] the most excited tourist spot is always their hometown.

[00:45:53] That's good.

[00:45:54] Who's on your roster now?

[00:45:58] No.

[00:45:59] You should know who they are.

[00:46:00] No, I'm just playing.

[00:46:02] No, go ahead.

[00:46:04] Hey man.

[00:46:05] I'ma play this back.

[00:46:06] No, no.

[00:46:06] We're gonna keep looping this back too.

[00:46:08] He couldn't, he don't remember y'all.

[00:46:09] I don't love y'all.

[00:46:10] That's crazy.

[00:46:10] No, I'm just saying what you're good at.

[00:46:12] It's crazy because like,

[00:46:13] I have the artists that are signed to Invite Only,

[00:46:15] but then me personally, the reason why I feel like

[00:46:18] I'm actually an asset to the space

[00:46:20] is because I will book a show for anybody at any time,

[00:46:22] if I can.

[00:46:24] I'll book shows for every random artist

[00:46:26] that I could find.

[00:46:26] So meaning even when you get that phone call,

[00:46:28] if they're not on your roster and you think it's a good fit.

[00:46:30] It doesn't work for anybody else.

[00:46:32] Bats.

[00:46:33] I booked Bats a show last year

[00:46:35] because geographically, I knew he was close

[00:46:37] to where the show was

[00:46:39] and based on the amount of money they couldn't do travel.

[00:46:41] So I was like, I got a guy who might be able to drive there

[00:46:43] because he lives close.

[00:46:45] And I booked that show for Bats

[00:46:46] and that's the only show that I booked for him.

[00:46:47] Gotcha.

[00:46:48] Because it just worked.

[00:46:49] I booked shows for Mission

[00:46:51] because just because, you know, he's out there

[00:46:53] and I'm like, oh, you looking for somebody out there?

[00:46:54] Is he in West Coast?

[00:46:55] Yeah, he's in West Coast.

[00:46:56] Yeah, Sac Romero.

[00:46:57] Okay.

[00:46:58] But so like Miles, like,

[00:47:01] those people who are not on my life,

[00:47:02] I booked tons of shows for Miles.

[00:47:03] Miles is not signed to me.

[00:47:05] I booked art, you know, but that's just my thing.

[00:47:07] Like, I'm like, yo, if I can't put money

[00:47:09] in anybody's pocket,

[00:47:09] I want to put money in anybody's pocket.

[00:47:11] That's good.

[00:47:11] I booked shows for La Cray and Andy.

[00:47:13] They didn't even know it was me.

[00:47:14] That's good.

[00:47:14] I just, I ran the play.

[00:47:16] Sounds like there's gonna be some commissions due.

[00:47:19] Right.

[00:47:20] Exactly.

[00:47:20] They don't even know.

[00:47:21] Like, but I run the play.

[00:47:22] Like one year I got to do Mike Todd's

[00:47:24] stage for transformation conference.

[00:47:25] Gotcha.

[00:47:26] So I booked the whole lineup

[00:47:27] just to help out

[00:47:28] and just to make sure that I went smooth

[00:47:29] and that could be a one-stop shop

[00:47:31] because I know all the other agents.

[00:47:32] But I made the whole showcase together

[00:47:34] for them basically.

[00:47:34] That's good.

[00:47:35] I didn't get paid from about one or two people.

[00:47:36] That's good.

[00:47:37] But doesn't matter.

[00:47:37] I run the play.

[00:47:38] Actually, spoiler alert, this is gonna be weird.

[00:47:41] I care about the space.

[00:47:42] Bro, that's not weird, man.

[00:47:45] That's not weird.

[00:47:45] I think there's several of us that do.

[00:47:47] Yeah.

[00:47:47] You know what I mean?

[00:47:48] We're several.

[00:47:50] And that means five or less.

[00:47:51] Less than 10.

[00:47:52] Less than 10.

[00:47:54] Then I know of.

[00:47:54] I'm a pessimist.

[00:47:55] Let me qualify that.

[00:47:58] That I know of.

[00:47:59] That you know of.

[00:47:59] And what I mean by that is

[00:48:02] there's nothing wrong with being an artist

[00:48:04] and being behind the scenes.

[00:48:04] But I do think there is

[00:48:06] when you're 100% behind the scenes,

[00:48:08] I do think you develop a different purview.

[00:48:10] And I think the work needs to be respected

[00:48:13] as that behind the scenes.

[00:48:14] If you and any other corporation,

[00:48:16] you're not a lot of times like

[00:48:18] you're not a server in Chipotle

[00:48:19] and incorporate running a certain department.

[00:48:23] We need more people running departments.

[00:48:25] And we need more people who want to do it.

[00:48:28] And nothing's wrong with growing your own strong business.

[00:48:30] We want your business to be strong,

[00:48:31] your ministry to be strong,

[00:48:32] but that you cared,

[00:48:33] you're concerned about the ecosystem growing.

[00:48:36] There's not a ton of people who are concerned

[00:48:37] about the ecosystem.

[00:48:38] There's a ton of people who just want to figure out

[00:48:40] how to make money

[00:48:41] and they utilize the ecosystem

[00:48:42] until it gets them to a certain level.

[00:48:44] And then once they're ready to outgrow the ecosystem,

[00:48:46] they cast the ecosystem aside a lot of times

[00:48:49] in order to be able to expand their wings

[00:48:51] as if the ecosystem is what's holding them back.

[00:48:52] Yeah.

[00:48:53] Let me ask you this.

[00:48:54] You've been in this, man, almost as long as I have.

[00:48:56] So I know I've got a couple thoughts on this.

[00:48:59] Let's say we walked into a room of investors.

[00:49:02] And let's say the investment potential in that room

[00:49:05] was, man, for the most part limitless.

[00:49:07] And they said, Mike, Mike Trigg, tell us.

[00:49:12] We got two questions for you.

[00:49:14] Tell us how much money you need from us.

[00:49:17] And just tell us a little bit about what you would do with it.

[00:49:20] What would you say?

[00:49:21] That's kind of how I came up with the idea

[00:49:23] for the Elevation Project.

[00:49:23] Really?

[00:49:24] So I have a pre-planned answer.

[00:49:25] Got you.

[00:49:25] Yeah.

[00:49:26] So somebody convicted me one time

[00:49:27] and they came to me and they said,

[00:49:29] all right, if you could,

[00:49:30] if we just funded whatever your next vision was

[00:49:33] and it didn't matter how much you needed,

[00:49:35] what would you do?

[00:49:36] And my answer was I would go across the country,

[00:49:39] find the best young artists that I feel like

[00:49:41] had the most potential, bring them all together,

[00:49:44] and then do everything I could to train them

[00:49:46] to reach their potential.

[00:49:48] And I'll bring in all the best speakers I possibly could.

[00:49:51] I'll bring in as many personalities,

[00:49:52] as many influencers as I could into that room,

[00:49:55] and give them as much information and training

[00:49:57] and build as much community and connections as possible

[00:50:00] so that when they left the room,

[00:50:02] they would be on a fast track trajectory towards success.

[00:50:05] So when they told me that,

[00:50:07] when he asked me that, I said,

[00:50:09] that's the Elevation Project.

[00:50:11] And then I felt convicted because in essence

[00:50:14] that meant that the only thing stopping me from doing it

[00:50:16] was me trying to figure out how to pay for it.

[00:50:19] And so I haven't figured out how to pay for it

[00:50:21] for the record.

[00:50:22] I'm still planning on looking at,

[00:50:24] not planning on, but looking at a deficit,

[00:50:26] taking an L to do this.

[00:50:28] But I don't care about money.

[00:50:31] I care about the kingdom.

[00:50:32] I care about God's work.

[00:50:33] I care about what He uniquely gave me,

[00:50:35] the gifts, abilities, connections to be able to do.

[00:50:38] And then I say, if I were to take all of that

[00:50:41] and squeeze the rag bone dry,

[00:50:44] it would be the Elevation Project.

[00:50:45] That's good.

[00:50:45] Because I could technically,

[00:50:46] I could churn out 10 artists

[00:50:49] that can help shift music culture.

[00:50:51] And you could turn that into a,

[00:50:54] I hate to say the word machine

[00:50:55] because sometimes that has a wrong connotation,

[00:50:57] but you could turn it into a regular process

[00:50:59] where maybe right now it's annual,

[00:51:01] it can move to by annual,

[00:51:03] and then if you got, it could move to quarterly.

[00:51:05] Yeah.

[00:51:05] Yeah.

[00:51:06] Oh yeah.

[00:51:06] We can syndicate it.

[00:51:07] We can record it.

[00:51:07] We can pitch it to TV.

[00:51:08] We can do a bunch of different things.

[00:51:10] We're going to try to do all that.

[00:51:12] But again, I always go in like,

[00:51:14] if I'm not gonna,

[00:51:15] if I didn't make any money off this,

[00:51:17] would I still do it?

[00:51:18] All those artists out there who say,

[00:51:19] yeah, I'm for the kingdom.

[00:51:20] I'm a mission.

[00:51:21] Yeah.

[00:51:21] I'm for the whatever, whatever you're for.

[00:51:24] Would you do it if you knew

[00:51:25] that you weren't ever going to make money from it?

[00:51:26] Would you still do it?

[00:51:27] That's when you know you love it.

[00:51:28] That's when you know it's mission.

[00:51:29] And I'll tell you this.

[00:51:30] I've been doing HolyCulture for,

[00:51:32] we had a 20 anniversary last year.

[00:51:35] I've been around, yeah, almost all of that 20 years.

[00:51:39] I'm not making money from HolyCulture.

[00:51:42] And I've been cool with that.

[00:51:43] Like it was always ministry for me, man.

[00:51:45] It started as cool.

[00:51:45] So all the people beating down his door,

[00:51:46] Matt, because you can't get on the radio,

[00:51:48] Matt, because you can't have stuff played.

[00:51:50] Matt, because of all this,

[00:51:50] Matt, because he wants you to pay for an ad.

[00:51:53] We don't charge for that.

[00:51:54] Yeah.

[00:51:54] He's, don't say that on the radio.

[00:51:55] We're not for artists.

[00:51:56] Don't say all that.

[00:51:57] Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[00:51:57] We charge sponsors.

[00:51:59] We need sponsors.

[00:52:00] Yeah, he needs sponsors.

[00:52:01] But you're saying it's not a money-making endeavor.

[00:52:03] And so the unfortunate part is we deal with artists

[00:52:06] who are nine out of 10 times completely in money-making endeavors.

[00:52:09] Completely, the strategy is for them,

[00:52:11] is how they're going to make money.

[00:52:12] How they're going to generate wealth.

[00:52:14] And meanwhile, you're over here trying to prop them up.

[00:52:16] Meanwhile, I'm over here trying to care for their spirituality

[00:52:19] and trying to help fans and everybody grow.

[00:52:22] And then we have the front face with artists

[00:52:23] who are for the most part trying to figure out

[00:52:25] how they're going to get rich.

[00:52:26] Yeah.

[00:52:26] Yeah.

[00:52:27] It started off as, it started off as God's work.

[00:52:29] And then it became how am I going to pay all my bills

[00:52:31] and not have to work a day job?

[00:52:32] I want to do music full-time means

[00:52:34] I just don't want to have a day job.

[00:52:35] I want to be able to rap all the time.

[00:52:37] Right.

[00:52:38] And you know, I struggle with that, man.

[00:52:39] I struggle.

[00:52:40] I mean, I'll be the first one to tell you,

[00:52:41] like I prayed for a long time for years,

[00:52:43] maybe before I left the corporate space

[00:52:44] to do this full-time and asking the Lord to provide a way.

[00:52:47] Like, Lord, if you're calling me to it,

[00:52:49] help provide a way for me to do it.

[00:52:51] You know what I mean?

[00:52:51] And the Lord provided a way for us to do it.

[00:52:54] And so, but yeah, I mean, I walked away from a corporate life

[00:52:58] and could have continued to move up and see sweet

[00:53:01] and do other things.

[00:53:02] But it's like, nah, this is where my heart is.

[00:53:04] This is where my purpose is.

[00:53:05] This is where my calling is as a part of God's kingdom work.

[00:53:11] You got to have purpose.

[00:53:12] You got to know, like if we're really Christians, right?

[00:53:16] Like I said, we're really artists.

[00:53:17] We're really Christians.

[00:53:17] If we're talking to you, if we're not talking to you,

[00:53:19] then this doesn't apply to you.

[00:53:20] But you should have some purpose wrapped up in this.

[00:53:22] Got to have purpose.

[00:53:23] And that's why.

[00:53:25] Got to.

[00:53:25] I'm off to preach.

[00:53:26] That's why we should not be looking at Instagram

[00:53:28] and seeing 65 artists doing the exact same thing

[00:53:31] with the exact same message

[00:53:32] in the exact same style, format of the exact same way.

[00:53:37] There's no way.

[00:53:37] That's my shop fire, gentlemen.

[00:53:39] There's no way.

[00:53:40] Who's being creative?

[00:53:41] Why is everybody in a field with a microphone

[00:53:42] hanging from the sky while you're wrapping your 32?

[00:53:45] He said it.

[00:53:45] He said it.

[00:53:46] I wasn't even playing on a same time.

[00:53:47] Whoa, he said it.

[00:53:48] That might be deployable.

[00:53:49] But I'm saying like-

[00:53:49] I'm not editing.

[00:53:50] I'm not editing.

[00:53:51] No, I don't want you to edit.

[00:53:52] I'm saying like, how can we lack creativity

[00:53:57] as Christian artists?

[00:53:58] I think it's our problem.

[00:53:59] We lack creativity.

[00:54:00] We were scared in it.

[00:54:01] Maybe the church has trained us not to be so free

[00:54:03] as to just do whatever we feel like God has implanted in us.

[00:54:06] But we have to be the first to do something at some point.

[00:54:08] Why do you think there's so much imitation?

[00:54:11] Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

[00:54:13] People see it and they say,

[00:54:14] well, I guess this is what works.

[00:54:16] And I think people-

[00:54:17] I think maybe there's a lack of actual creatives.

[00:54:21] Like maybe a lot of these artists just really aren't creatives.

[00:54:23] Or do you think there's a perception that that is the formula?

[00:54:27] Yeah, I think that's part of it.

[00:54:28] I think they see it and they're like,

[00:54:30] oh, this is what you got to do.

[00:54:31] But again, how are you differentiating yourself?

[00:54:33] If there's 40 artists who are all doing that same exact thing,

[00:54:36] are your bars going to differentiate you from everybody else?

[00:54:39] At least the way that you shoot going to differ.

[00:54:42] If you're not even-

[00:54:43] Some artists don't even go as far as to change the way that they shoot it.

[00:54:47] Like I said, they're in a field.

[00:54:49] They're on the street, it's hanging down.

[00:54:51] They're in a staircase.

[00:54:54] Those are like the three-

[00:54:55] You know what I mean?

[00:54:55] And then there's a few other people who might do their snippets

[00:55:00] in a different fashion,

[00:55:01] but it's like everybody's got the same formula.

[00:55:03] And as long as you're chasing what the formula is

[00:55:07] and what's been done

[00:55:08] and what you feel like has been successful,

[00:55:09] as long as you're chasing that, you'll never be ahead of it.

[00:55:11] Yeah.

[00:55:12] So the ones that get ahead are the ones who do a first

[00:55:15] and have great success and is new and is cool and is unique.

[00:55:18] Those are the ones that explode.

[00:55:20] You're never going to explode being the copycat.

[00:55:22] You're always going to be that dude that's kind of like Uzi Vert

[00:55:25] or that dude that reminds me of Chance

[00:55:28] or like I want to be a Tory Kelly type artist.

[00:55:30] People are always saying that type of stuff.

[00:55:33] I can't tell you how many times I've heard,

[00:55:34] I want to be like a Tory Kelly and kind of do both.

[00:55:39] You think Tory Kelly was looking at that?

[00:55:40] Like I want to be a Tory Kelly.

[00:55:41] No, she had a vision and hopefully it's from the Lord

[00:55:44] and she walked in it and it created this.

[00:55:47] I think Chandler Moore probably had a vision,

[00:55:50] saw what the Lord was having to do and walked in

[00:55:52] and was in position and became this incredible

[00:55:55] worldwide almost known worship leader.

[00:55:58] But it wasn't a formula that he was following

[00:56:00] that we've seen.

[00:56:01] But now every time you turn on YouTube,

[00:56:04] you're seeing people just copy that Chandler,

[00:56:07] that Maverick City's format.

[00:56:09] And now they're all just cookie cutters.

[00:56:11] And so you're never going to be the one that explodes

[00:56:13] and breaks it open as long as you're copycating

[00:56:15] the following.

[00:56:16] What's new? What's different?

[00:56:17] What a guy? That's why even for me, that's my standard.

[00:56:20] With elevation, I'm like, yo, nobody's doing this.

[00:56:22] So that's why I'm doing it.

[00:56:24] I'm not trying to do what everybody else has done.

[00:56:25] I am a creative.

[00:56:26] I'm actually a creative.

[00:56:28] So I'm actually doing different stuff.

[00:56:29] You're actually what you're doing is unique

[00:56:31] and cool and different.

[00:56:33] And nobody else has the, I was gonna say,

[00:56:35] Cajones to do.

[00:56:37] Had to catch myself.

[00:56:38] Yeah, to do what you're doing, to do what I'm doing.

[00:56:40] Who else is going to spend,

[00:56:41] I'm going to spend like 50 grand

[00:56:42] to fly 10 artists to Boston

[00:56:44] so that I can do artist development.

[00:56:45] That's almost ridiculous.

[00:56:47] It's almost silly that I'm going to do that

[00:56:49] and risk all my money.

[00:56:51] But that's what creatives do.

[00:56:52] We got a burning desire to do something different.

[00:56:55] Have a burning desire to change the world.

[00:56:57] I don't have a burning desire to look at anybody else

[00:56:59] and say, oh, I should do that.

[00:57:02] Oh, I want to recreate passion.

[00:57:03] Yeah.

[00:57:04] Oh, I want to recreate all this other stuff.

[00:57:06] There's a lot of people who just wake up

[00:57:07] and say, man, that's amazing.

[00:57:08] I want to do that too.

[00:57:09] That's good.

[00:57:09] I don't say that.

[00:57:10] No.

[00:57:10] I don't say that.

[00:57:11] 200%.

[00:57:12] While your artists wake up in the morning,

[00:57:14] y'all see somebody else in your grid,

[00:57:15] and you say, oh, I want to do that.

[00:57:16] Oh, I can do that too.

[00:57:18] Nah, don't do that.

[00:57:19] What you got?

[00:57:21] What did God give you?

[00:57:22] What's your unique plan?

[00:57:23] And that's it.

[00:57:24] What did God give you?

[00:57:25] What did he give you?

[00:57:26] God gives a vision to a person, not a committee.

[00:57:29] And so I would just challenge you

[00:57:31] to go into your prayer closet, your prayer rug,

[00:57:33] whatever it is, and ask God for real unfolded.

[00:57:37] Like it's the Great Commission,

[00:57:38] not the Great Suggestion.

[00:57:39] We all must go ye there for baptizing.

[00:57:42] In the name of the Father, Son of Holy Spirit.

[00:57:43] Right?

[00:57:44] What's your, where are your arms in that work?

[00:57:47] Yeah.

[00:57:48] You know what I mean?

[00:57:48] And ask for real because from a spiritual sense,

[00:57:52] the Lord has something for you.

[00:57:53] Yeah.

[00:57:53] We got unique fingerprints,

[00:57:55] unique gifts and talents.

[00:57:56] Put the work.

[00:57:57] You do what I'm saying?

[00:57:57] And then from a business sense,

[00:57:59] if the spiritual doesn't get you,

[00:58:00] just think about it from a business sense.

[00:58:03] There's a thing called Blue Ocean Strategy.

[00:58:05] I'm sure you familiar with it right?

[00:58:06] Either you can swim with the sharks

[00:58:07] or now water is already red

[00:58:09] and you think you're going to be a better shark.

[00:58:10] Or you can go out somewhere where no one is.

[00:58:12] Yeah.

[00:58:13] Right?

[00:58:13] Wayne Gretzky would say it's not about where the puck is,

[00:58:15] it's where the puck's going.

[00:58:16] Yeah.

[00:58:17] Right?

[00:58:17] So same thing like you, you spending money,

[00:58:19] we spending money, right?

[00:58:20] But we think it's part of,

[00:58:22] I think we know and God has told us

[00:58:24] as a part of the mission.

[00:58:25] You do what I'm saying?

[00:58:26] And you got to go,

[00:58:27] people said when I thought about doing radio,

[00:58:29] six, six, seven, eight.

[00:58:30] Why don't you just do some Spotify playlist?

[00:58:32] Yeah.

[00:58:32] That's not even almost the same.

[00:58:34] I couldn't even,

[00:58:35] you know what I mean?

[00:58:35] It was like, what?

[00:58:37] Why don't you,

[00:58:38] Chet, why are you trying to do that?

[00:58:39] Just do some Spotify playlist,

[00:58:40] bro and blow them up.

[00:58:41] Yeah.

[00:58:41] Ah, we trying to touch millions.

[00:58:43] God has called us to touch millions.

[00:58:45] Yep.

[00:58:45] Yeah.

[00:58:46] That's what I get all the time,

[00:58:47] every year elevation.

[00:58:47] Man, why don't you just,

[00:58:49] man, why don't you,

[00:58:50] man, and then people,

[00:58:51] and the best part is when people try to

[00:58:52] tell you to follow a model

[00:58:53] and then that model dies.

[00:58:56] Like I've been told to copy like other conferences

[00:58:58] and those conferences don't exist,

[00:58:59] the mind still does.

[00:59:00] Yeah.

[00:59:00] Yeah.

[00:59:01] Yeah.

[00:59:01] That's good.

[00:59:02] That's amazing.

[00:59:02] It's good learning, right?

[00:59:03] Yeah.

[00:59:04] And you get to walk by and just...

[00:59:05] I'm like, no.

[00:59:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:59:07] No, that's not it.

[00:59:07] That's not it.

[00:59:08] You're doing that.

[00:59:08] Nope.

[00:59:09] You're doing that.

[00:59:09] All right, man, as we wrap up,

[00:59:12] shoot, you don't drop so many gems.

[00:59:13] I was going to ask you to drop one final gem.

[00:59:15] It's hard for me to do that.

[00:59:15] I mean, you've talked about the hard work,

[00:59:17] differentiation of 10 years.

[00:59:19] Don't think you can tool when you're not ready.

[00:59:21] Any last thing you want to close with, brother?

[00:59:24] Yeah.

[00:59:24] I just think, I mean,

[00:59:26] again, just as an industry,

[00:59:27] just as Christian creatives

[00:59:29] and even specifically in the Christian hip hop market,

[00:59:32] we got to go back to being different.

[00:59:34] We got to go back to being creative.

[00:59:35] Yeah.

[00:59:36] We got to start taking a little bit more risk.

[00:59:38] I encourage all the artists out there

[00:59:39] do hard ticket shows,

[00:59:41] figure out how to do hard ticket shows.

[00:59:42] You think everybody understands what hard ticket means?

[00:59:44] Just break it down for a second.

[00:59:45] Okay, so hard ticket shows means

[00:59:47] somebody got to pay to come see you

[00:59:48] and it's your liabilities on you.

[00:59:51] I go to Boston.

[00:59:51] I rent a venue.

[00:59:53] I put on my own show.

[00:59:54] I say, come buy tickets and come attend.

[00:59:56] It's very different from me just going to a church

[01:00:00] and they already have a youth night

[01:00:01] and I say, can I bring an artist to you?

[01:00:03] That's a zero liability situation.

[01:00:06] I'm talking full liability.

[01:00:07] Put the bag on yourself.

[01:00:09] Yep.

[01:00:09] Bet it on yourself.

[01:00:10] All you artists who do 50 shows a year

[01:00:13] but every single one of those shows

[01:00:14] is you pop it up at a youth group.

[01:00:17] I venture to say you're not truly expanding

[01:00:19] and not truly embracing what it means to be an artist.

[01:00:23] At some point, people have to pay to come see you.

[01:00:25] We play the church circuit in Christian hip hop.

[01:00:28] The unfortunate blessing is

[01:00:30] you can have a song that goes crazy on Holy Culture

[01:00:33] and you could get booked at churches all across the country

[01:00:36] just because of that.

[01:00:37] That's cool.

[01:00:38] But the church is paying them.

[01:00:39] The church will pay them.

[01:00:40] But they're not taking any economic risk.

[01:00:42] No economic risk.

[01:00:42] So they take the economic risk.

[01:00:44] It's not a hard ticket sale.

[01:00:44] Yeah, it's not a hard ticket sale.

[01:00:45] And because if you play that circuit,

[01:00:48] now you are that.

[01:00:50] Now that fan base is like almost your end all be all.

[01:00:53] You're never going to outgrow that.

[01:00:54] You're never going to expand outside of that.

[01:00:56] You're kind of just like I said

[01:00:57] an interchangeable piece within that circuit

[01:00:59] because they might flip on the radio tomorrow

[01:01:01] when we hear a different artist.

[01:01:02] And that'll be just their new one then

[01:01:03] that they just tap into whatever song is hot that month.

[01:01:06] You got to figure out how to build up your own structure.

[01:01:08] Don't take every church show.

[01:01:10] Don't take every don't pop up at every church conference.

[01:01:12] Don't take every free performance.

[01:01:14] People need to pay to see you.

[01:01:15] You're going to be an artist.

[01:01:16] You're the product.

[01:01:17] People got to pay to see you.

[01:01:18] You got to have some value.

[01:01:19] You got to equate some value to yourself.

[01:01:21] Don't be everywhere doing everything.

[01:01:23] That's good.

[01:01:24] Hey y'all, a lot of nuggets.

[01:01:26] And I make money off that.

[01:01:27] That's the great I say it on time.

[01:01:28] I make the most money off church shows.

[01:01:30] Do you?

[01:01:31] Yeah.

[01:01:32] Because again, it's a B2B sale.

[01:01:33] It's like easy.

[01:01:34] It's easy.

[01:01:35] They call me they're like, yo, we want this dude 10 grand.

[01:01:38] I'm like, bet off.

[01:01:39] I'll make it happen.

[01:01:40] Take your commission roll.

[01:01:42] But at the end of the year, I say, hey bro,

[01:01:43] you really should take less of those.

[01:01:45] But as long as you do.

[01:01:46] Think about that.

[01:01:47] Think about that.

[01:01:48] The person who could earn off of it saying,

[01:01:50] I'll take less for the betterment of your career.

[01:01:53] I do because I book a lot of church shows every year.

[01:01:55] I'm at since starting Invite Only,

[01:01:56] I probably had like 300, 400 shows booked.

[01:01:59] And it's just not a strategy that you can use

[01:02:03] throughout the entirety of your career.

[01:02:05] Like we said, Billy Joel's, you got to pay to see Billy Joel.

[01:02:08] Billy Joel not going to be on no free nothing.

[01:02:10] You think Billy Joel walking anywhere

[01:02:12] lets you see him for free?

[01:02:12] You're crazy.

[01:02:13] You got to pay to see 50.

[01:02:15] You got to pay to see Drake.

[01:02:16] Why in our industry, you don't got to pay to see nobody.

[01:02:19] And just so y'all understand again, Mike is booking.

[01:02:22] You're booking one day.

[01:02:23] Sorry, Derek Minor, John Keith, Kenan,

[01:02:26] Juan Day, Portia Love, Not Clyde,

[01:02:30] done a lot for Miles Minnick.

[01:02:31] No big deal.

[01:02:32] I booked mad indie tribe shows.

[01:02:34] I think every indie tribe show that's happened,

[01:02:35] I probably booked it.

[01:02:37] Yeah, bro.

[01:02:38] It's just like the list goes on.

[01:02:39] Like I said, I have booked LaCrae, Andy, KB.

[01:02:42] I have booked almost every year.

[01:02:45] I've booked and doing book for Marty, social club.

[01:02:48] Yeah, bro.

[01:02:50] I'm touching the whole industry as far as that goes.

[01:02:53] But again, I know what's really like

[01:02:56] what's really a template that can cause expansion

[01:02:58] and what's a template that will keep you kind of in a space.

[01:03:01] Yeah.

[01:03:01] And it's cool if you want to play the church,

[01:03:03] you'll be fine.

[01:03:03] But you can caramelize yourself.

[01:03:05] You can be fine.

[01:03:05] Yeah, but you'll caramelize yourself.

[01:03:07] Yeah, that's good.

[01:03:08] All right, y'all, until next time,

[01:03:10] you know what it is, holy culture.

[01:03:11] Thank you, brother.

[01:03:12] Peace.