VIDEO 44 - Male Survivor Awareness Day 2024 Live Event - Panel Discussion on Healing -Part 2

[00:00:03] Welcome to the Healing for Male Survivors podcast. This is a podcast for male survivors of sexual abuse and assault, whether as a child or as an adult. Know that you are not alone and the abuse was not your fault. My name is Mike Chapman. I'm a certified recovery life coach and also a survivor. Let's find hope and healing together.

[00:00:28] And welcome back to part two of Male Survivor Awareness Day 2024, where we continue our discussion on options for healing.

[00:00:43] We had mentioned techniques, therapeutic techniques that can be used by clinicians and some by others.

[00:00:52] I know Kevin and I, and probably some of you others, have gone the non-professional route as far as group supports. I was on Male Survivor for a long time, still am, but very, very active when I was first going through it.

[00:01:08] I think that was helpful. Men's Weekends like Men Healing, which is specifically for survivors or any of these other men's groups that are out there for weekend retreat experiences that go deep into healing, such as Marked Men for Christ and Edge Venture.

[00:01:28] And there's several others out there and there's several others out there and asthma material as well that offer all kinds of healing opportunities that are not necessarily licensed therapeutic options, but really, really effective and very helpful.

[00:01:44] So any other techniques we've mentioned, EMDR, brain spotting, group therapy, these group experiences, internal family systems, cognitive behavioral therapy. Kevin?

[00:01:58] One of the things we talk about a lot, especially if you're not able to find therapists, there's groups available like Celebrate Recovery and so forth.

[00:02:07] And I love Male Survivor. That's one of my favorite ways. And especially because you can go on there anonymously.

[00:02:14] Yes.

[00:02:15] And post your story and also ask questions of other survivors or even just exploring it sometimes to see that other men are going through recovery group right away or get a therapist right away is to journal or to get it out of your, get your story out of your head somehow.

[00:02:34] Journal, write it down, go to Male Survivor, put your story out there.

[00:02:40] It's really important to get it out of your head and get in writing somehow or tell your story.

[00:02:47] If there's someone safe you can talk to and, you know, won't judge you, won't, you know, question you just to be able to tell your story and get out because that actually puts it in a place in your head.

[00:02:59] Because until then, it's just this thing that you're trying to repress or you're trying to, you know, deal with without actually dealing with it.

[00:03:08] And so I think journaling is a huge help, especially when you're first trying to get recovery, first trying to get healing.

[00:03:16] Yes, absolutely.

[00:03:18] And episode I just released in the past few weeks on ACEs, which is Adverse Childhood Experiences.

[00:03:27] And it's, go to the episode, it describes it, it gives you the test as part of the episode.

[00:03:33] But it's, you get a score of one to 10, depending on how many yes answers to a specific set of possible childhood traumas that this official study that happened in San Diego several years ago was on.

[00:03:47] And I was at an online workshop and they had a presentation by an expert on ACEs.

[00:03:54] And one of the participants went up and she asked this expert, okay, I got a nine, which anything four and above is like really, really bad.

[00:04:03] How it affects long-term social, mental health, physical addictions, so forth.

[00:04:10] All these different things that have a huge higher percent chance of happening if you have a score of four above, she had a nine.

[00:04:19] What can I do to lessen the effects of a high ACE score, which means someone who's had a whole bunch of childhood trauma?

[00:04:26] And his answer was autobiographical journaling is the most effective way to lessen the effects of trauma, which is a theme of my podcast.

[00:04:39] Tell your story, whether it's here on the podcast, if it's journaling by yourself, going on Male Survivor, telling your story there.

[00:04:47] That's what I did when I first started doing that because I'm not writing on a piece of paper.

[00:04:51] That's not me.

[00:04:52] But I can put stuff on a post and pour my heart out.

[00:04:56] And it's kind of nice because you get all this feedback.

[00:04:59] The one drawback about Male Survivor specifically, though they're wonderful, not very faith-friendly.

[00:05:06] They have one little area on spirituality.

[00:05:08] So if you want to talk about that as part of your healing process, it's often not only not welcomed but kind of shunned unless you put it in there.

[00:05:18] That's something I wanted to do within Husband Materials.

[00:05:21] So we do have a sexual abuse and assault survivors fellowship group, small group within the main Husband Materials community, both of which are free.

[00:05:31] Links in the show notes, as a safe but faith-based place where you can also share your story for sure.

[00:05:39] And Luke?

[00:05:39] Yeah, I first shared my story with Kevin.

[00:05:42] It was a great experience just to be able to share my story.

[00:05:46] I found like SCSA is another one.

[00:05:50] You know, it's all survivors.

[00:05:52] And it's separate groups.

[00:05:53] So it's females and males.

[00:05:55] Right.

[00:05:55] And just being able to sit with another survivor and share your story.

[00:06:01] And that's survivors of childhood sexual abuse?

[00:06:03] And it's like a 12-step-ish group that's out there?

[00:06:07] I would say 12-step.

[00:06:08] It's just we meet every Saturday.

[00:06:11] Okay, so support group.

[00:06:13] Yeah, support group.

[00:06:14] Yes.

[00:06:14] And I know there's others out there.

[00:06:16] I know ASCA, A-S-C-A, is another one for abuse survivors.

[00:06:21] And there's several out there.

[00:06:23] And I will list as many as I can in the show notes.

[00:06:26] But yes, great concept.

[00:06:29] And especially if you cannot afford a therapist and have no insurance or don't have the resources.

[00:06:34] Though Lori would say, you can find the resources.

[00:06:38] There's all kinds of resources out there.

[00:06:40] And there's funds.

[00:06:42] And there's grants.

[00:06:43] And there's all kinds of things.

[00:06:46] So if you really want to find the resources to go see professional therapy, it's out there.

[00:06:54] If you feel like, yeah, there's nothing out here.

[00:06:57] Or you live in a rural area and there's not much out there.

[00:06:59] There's tons of lay or peer groups out there.

[00:07:05] And therapists and life coaches and so forth.

[00:07:08] Like brain spotting specifically is a technique that does not require you to be a licensed therapist.

[00:07:15] So many are able to add that into their toolbox and use that when working with clients.

[00:07:24] Any other techniques we haven't mentioned?

[00:07:26] Doug, anything to add?

[00:07:27] Grounding.

[00:07:28] At least if I find something triggering me, you know.

[00:07:33] Yes.

[00:07:33] I always use grounding or box breathing just to work through that.

[00:07:38] And in fact, in the last episode I just posted, in fact, yesterday it was on a panel discussion on triggers that Luke was a part of.

[00:07:48] And we mentioned all kinds of different grounding techniques on that as well.

[00:07:54] And links to those techniques on those show notes as well.

[00:07:58] So, yes, there are several that Luke mentioned and I mentioned as well on there.

[00:08:04] So, yeah, that's another thing.

[00:08:05] So, if you feel riled up or your mind's going a mile a minute, just doing these grounding techniques, breathing, anything that can calm the central nervous system, extremely helpful.

[00:08:19] Doug, anything to add?

[00:08:20] Not that I can think of off the top of my head.

[00:08:22] Kevin.

[00:08:23] I think we're hitting a lot of those.

[00:08:25] Yes.

[00:08:25] I have found out for me at the beginning, you know, I didn't get a therapist right away.

[00:08:30] I read a lot of books.

[00:08:32] Well, not a lot.

[00:08:32] There were only a few available back then.

[00:08:34] But music was an amazing therapy for me.

[00:08:38] And it was helpful in just being able to release emotions.

[00:08:43] Emotions that I wasn't able to, you know, I was afraid to release before I actually got into therapy and so forth.

[00:08:51] And music is still a really big therapy for me.

[00:08:55] And there's so many bands and musicians and songs that have helped me through this process.

[00:09:02] One of the most recent is Marcus Mumford's latest album.

[00:09:06] I don't know if you guys have heard it.

[00:09:07] Yeah, he's an artist who, yeah, he was part of a different music group.

[00:09:13] But then as far as his solo career, he was a survivor of abuse as well.

[00:09:19] And he has a whole album dedicated to his experiences and his healing as a survivor and that whole process.

[00:09:27] And yeah, definitely a hearty for explicit from what I understand.

[00:09:31] It is, but it's phenomenal.

[00:09:34] And it's very cathartic.

[00:09:36] It's just very cathartic.

[00:09:37] And it will, it does for me bring up a lot of emotions.

[00:09:41] But yeah, music has been a huge, and I know for other people that were in my male group and so forth, that music was really a cathartic process.

[00:09:52] Music and dancing.

[00:09:53] And also at times, just art, being able to draw.

[00:09:58] Sometimes that brings it out of you.

[00:10:00] If you can't write it down, if you can't tell your story, being able to draw just pictures of what's in your head.

[00:10:06] What's what you're, you know, what you're picturing, what you're, what you remember.

[00:10:11] Being able to draw that is sometimes easier for some survivors.

[00:10:16] Right.

[00:10:16] I know art therapy, very helpful.

[00:10:19] And when I went to that men healing, they do weekends of recovery, secular group.

[00:10:25] They did some art therapy, and that was very helpful for me.

[00:10:28] And then with a survivors group that I work with, we went on an art therapy weekend about a couple months ago.

[00:10:38] And yeah, I came up with two art pieces myself, and it was just so healing.

[00:10:44] And from what I've learned, any kind of creative endeavor is all right brain.

[00:10:50] And guess where trauma is stored?

[00:10:52] Also, in the right brain.

[00:10:54] So these creative endeavors, music, poetry, paint, anything like that can access those inner trauma wounds that are stored deep within the right brain that art therapy doesn't touch.

[00:11:12] And you can access things.

[00:11:14] And I've told the story before at that same men healing weekend.

[00:11:19] There was a guy who drew and painted a whole bunch of art on his spare time and then showed us his portfolio on his phone.

[00:11:28] And we had just listened to a story.

[00:11:30] And it's like, oh, it's great that you use your healing journey in your art.

[00:11:33] He said, no, I don't.

[00:11:34] It's like, dude, you just told this story.

[00:11:37] This painting right here.

[00:11:38] Okay, this triangle.

[00:11:39] And that's the river that you're talking about.

[00:11:42] And that's this.

[00:11:42] And he's like, no, it's not.

[00:11:44] And all of us looking at his portfolio, it's like totally his inner child was painting and expressing all of his traumas through the artwork subconsciously.

[00:11:55] And he didn't even realize it until we pointed it out.

[00:11:58] And then every single picture had something to do with the story that he had told us.

[00:12:03] And he never made that connection until we pointed it out.

[00:12:06] But, yeah, the story wants to be told.

[00:12:10] The truth wants to come out.

[00:12:12] And it will find ways to do it for sure.

[00:12:16] Anything to add to that, Doug?

[00:12:17] No, I definitely think art therapy is a great way.

[00:12:21] And any artistic expression is going to tap deep into your mind and your emotions and is a great way to help you express emotion that's there.

[00:12:34] So I think art therapy is a wonderful technique and music therapy as well.

[00:12:39] Yes, exactly.

[00:12:41] Luke?

[00:12:41] I find animal healing as well.

[00:12:43] Oh.

[00:12:44] I have a couple of dogs.

[00:12:45] If I'm just if I get wound up or even if I'm just having a day, you know, petting that dog.

[00:12:51] Right.

[00:12:52] Yeah.

[00:12:52] Fur babies, for sure.

[00:12:54] That's a good grounding technique, actually.

[00:12:57] But especially if they're tuned into you.

[00:12:59] And they train dogs as PTSD therapy dogs.

[00:13:02] And they're specifically trained to help people dealing with trauma and help us calm down and so forth.

[00:13:09] So, yeah, that's excellent.

[00:13:11] Next question.

[00:13:12] We've talked about things that have worked.

[00:13:15] What have you tried and it hasn't worked?

[00:13:18] Anything that you've tried and hasn't worked.

[00:13:20] I know I'm trying to think.

[00:13:22] I tried a lot and a lot of it was at least a little bit helpful.

[00:13:26] I know talk therapy helps a little bit, but not a lot.

[00:13:30] But it did help me.

[00:13:31] It did help me quite a bit.

[00:13:33] Two therapists, three therapists ago, my current therapist, the one before that, the one before that, that one was female.

[00:13:40] And very, very helpful, but didn't really help with the trauma, but helped with some of the side issues like pornography addiction.

[00:13:48] She helped me beat that.

[00:13:51] And support groups helped.

[00:13:52] What didn't help within Celebrate Recovery, they had, at the time, they specialized in groups.

[00:13:59] And the only thing that made sense for me, because I didn't really, wasn't addicted to substances, was really it was a pornography addiction group.

[00:14:08] But it was sexual issues.

[00:14:11] So I figured, okay, that's the closest fit.

[00:14:12] But it was not strong leadership.

[00:14:15] And they kept saying, yeah, yeah, I fell again this week.

[00:14:19] I fell again this week.

[00:14:20] And that was the same question, the same statement all the way around.

[00:14:24] No winning, no even trying.

[00:14:26] These are things that I did.

[00:14:27] And every week, it was like going around saying, yes, I fell again, I fell again, I fell again.

[00:14:33] That was not helpful.

[00:14:34] That did not help me at all.

[00:14:36] And it got rather frustrating.

[00:14:39] And because I would go, well, I'm working on all this stuff for my healing and da, da, da, da, da.

[00:14:43] And everyone else was like, yeah, okay.

[00:14:46] Because when I went there, I was, porn wasn't my thing.

[00:14:49] I was still dealing with all this other stuff going on.

[00:14:51] That was maybe one of the least helpful things.

[00:14:54] Celebrate Recovery as a whole, very helpful.

[00:14:56] Their large group meeting is very helpful.

[00:14:58] But that one particular small group meeting, I ended up going to some of the other, like an A to Z group, which is like everything.

[00:15:04] That was a little bit more helpful.

[00:15:06] Yeah, that one group didn't really help.

[00:15:08] So what have you guys tried?

[00:15:10] Well, one thing that I would say is that I think sometimes the church environment and Christianity can be naive when it comes to this subject.

[00:15:19] Absolutely.

[00:15:19] You know, just telling you to pray about it, you know, to rush to forgiveness, to forgive your perpetrator.

[00:15:28] Those things aren't helpful.

[00:15:30] We kind of term that spiritual bypass.

[00:15:32] You know, when people are just throwing spiritual, religious, biblical things at you.

[00:15:38] I believe in all those things, but they have to be done in the correct process and at the correct time when you're at a certain point in your healing where you're ready to do that.

[00:15:50] But, you know, I think too many times people are told that they need to forgive, they need to reconcile, they need to move on.

[00:15:59] I think there are a lot of religious and spiritual cliches and things that people are told that are not helpful and are counter-therapeutic to their healing.

[00:16:11] And so I think you have to be real careful about trying to address this kind of issue inside of a real heavily conservative Christian vantage point.

[00:16:24] Because, yeah, I've seen a lot of harm done that way.

[00:16:27] So, right.

[00:16:29] Yes.

[00:16:29] And I'm a strong conservative Christian.

[00:16:32] Right.

[00:16:33] So it's not like I'm knocking that at all.

[00:16:35] But I've seen a lot of people hurt by not being allowed to tell their story, not being allowed to take the time and the process of healing and certain expectations being thrown on them that are just not realistic.

[00:16:52] Right.

[00:16:52] Let me add to that.

[00:16:54] What was, I'll go around, what was the worst thing that someone in a church environment told you about healing and this issue?

[00:17:03] And I'll start because, yeah, you brought up this memory.

[00:17:07] Someone who was in a church recovery situation, the leader, it's like, Mike, why aren't you done dealing with all this stuff?

[00:17:16] You should be done dealing with all this stuff by now.

[00:17:18] And no, this is a healing journey, lifelong process.

[00:17:23] And he was the newly appointed head of their recovery ministry in this particular church.

[00:17:30] No, it's a process.

[00:17:32] And I'm going to be dealing with, yeah, a lot of stuff happened.

[00:17:36] And it's going to be a lifelong healing process.

[00:17:39] But that was, yeah.

[00:17:42] And I knew not to be involved with that group anymore.

[00:17:44] So, Kevin.

[00:17:47] Well, I haven't had any unfortunate experiences in church, fortunately.

[00:17:53] I've been very accepted.

[00:17:55] But one of the things I wanted to say that doesn't work is having expectations sometimes can be really difficult,

[00:18:03] especially expectations of how someone's going to react when you tell your story,

[00:18:07] especially if they're involved in the story somehow.

[00:18:13] If it's like if your perpetrator was a relative and you tell the other relatives about it or, you know,

[00:18:18] having expectations can often make it more difficult.

[00:18:22] If you're having expectations of what will happen when you do forgive someone,

[00:18:28] that can also blow up in your face.

[00:18:31] So just being careful with what your expectations are when you tell your story,

[00:18:36] when you go to forgive someone, when you confront your perpetrator.

[00:18:42] You know, the expectations can sometimes be a pitfall, can be a trap.

[00:18:47] And it's better not to have overwhelming expectations of what's going to happen.

[00:18:54] So that was for me at the time my expectations were so overwhelming.

[00:19:00] It prevented me from talking about it, prevented me from confronting people,

[00:19:04] prevented me from, you know, doing the work that I need to do because my expectations were,

[00:19:10] you know, everything in the world is going to end.

[00:19:11] My life's going to be over.

[00:19:13] You know, things are going to just blow up.

[00:19:15] Right.

[00:19:16] Yeah.

[00:19:16] Let me put a pin in expectations because I want to go around the room with that one, too.

[00:19:20] Going back to negative church experiences, Luke, anything you want to share on that?

[00:19:25] No.

[00:19:25] Doug, anything you want to share on that?

[00:19:28] I would say that neither one of these, I think, happened to me personally,

[00:19:32] but I have been in the presence of situations where, just like I said before,

[00:19:39] or that a person is told that they need to forgive very quickly because, you know, you can't have an unforgiving heart.

[00:19:47] And the other thing is being in a Christian world that you're not allowed to be mad or angry at your perpetrator.

[00:19:56] You know, anger is seen as sin and that you're not allowed to be angry.

[00:20:01] And I very much do not agree with either one of those things.

[00:20:06] You have a right to be angry.

[00:20:08] You know, the Bible says be angry and sin not.

[00:20:11] So anger is not a bad emotion.

[00:20:12] You can be angry and you can.

[00:20:15] And I believe that forgiveness is a process.

[00:20:18] It's not an event.

[00:20:20] Right.

[00:20:20] And that takes time.

[00:20:23] Jesus expressed anger and did not sin.

[00:20:25] Absolutely.

[00:20:26] And shoving those emotions down and pretending they're not there, any emotion, is not healthy.

[00:20:34] And there's no good or bad emotions.

[00:20:37] They just are.

[00:20:38] They just are.

[00:20:39] They're information.

[00:20:42] Yes.

[00:20:42] Emotions are information.

[00:20:44] Exactly.

[00:20:45] Now, going back to expectations.

[00:20:48] Yeah.

[00:20:49] Sharing your story.

[00:20:50] It's for you.

[00:20:52] Just like asking forgiveness.

[00:20:53] It's for you.

[00:20:54] It's not for the other person.

[00:20:56] And when you share, you don't know how they're going to respond.

[00:21:00] And I know with disclosure.

[00:21:03] Yeah.

[00:21:03] That's why a lot of men end up disclosing into little tiny chunks and just testing the logic to see how well that is received.

[00:21:11] And, oh, it's well received.

[00:21:13] Well, I might give them a bigger chunk next time.

[00:21:15] But if you do a huge disclosure, you don't know necessarily about how someone is going to respond.

[00:21:23] So, yeah.

[00:21:24] And people have their own stuff and their own filters.

[00:21:28] And, yeah.

[00:21:29] So, be careful.

[00:21:31] And you don't have to tell your story to everyone.

[00:21:37] And you don't have to tell all of your story when you tell your story.

[00:21:42] You can tell just the highlights, just surface level.

[00:21:47] You can go deep.

[00:21:47] You can go way deep depending on who you're talking to.

[00:21:51] And, yeah.

[00:21:52] You don't have to give all the great details every time you tell it.

[00:21:56] Absolutely not.

[00:21:57] Though that is helpful to at least tell someone somewhere, even if it's your own journal, to get it out of your head.

[00:22:06] Like we said earlier.

[00:22:08] Absolutely.

[00:22:09] One expectation that I think is unhealthy is you should be over this by now.

[00:22:14] Yes.

[00:22:15] Yes.

[00:22:16] You know, it's been 15 years ago.

[00:22:19] It's been 30 years ago.

[00:22:20] It's been 45 years ago.

[00:22:21] You should be over this by now.

[00:22:23] Well, there are some things you don't ever fully get over.

[00:22:26] Right.

[00:22:27] And there are ways that it still affects you years and years later.

[00:22:32] You can have, you know, a look, a song, a painting.

[00:22:37] Anything can be a trigger of past memories and will bring the abuse back up.

[00:22:45] So that expectation of you should be over this.

[00:22:47] I don't know that you're ever over it.

[00:22:51] You can find meaning for it.

[00:22:53] You can bring purpose around it.

[00:22:56] You can find all kinds of healing.

[00:23:00] But that doesn't mean you're over it as if it never happened.

[00:23:04] Right.

[00:23:05] Right.

[00:23:05] It's a part of you.

[00:23:06] It's a part of your story.

[00:23:08] Absolutely.

[00:23:09] Next question.

[00:23:10] What can non-survivors do to help survivors heal?

[00:23:15] Luke?

[00:23:15] Well, for me, I mean, my fiancee is my biggest support.

[00:23:20] And just her being there for me and reminding me, like, especially if I'm triggered, reminding

[00:23:26] me to breathe, reminding me to do those techniques, those breathing techniques and the grounding

[00:23:32] techniques.

[00:23:33] And really just being there for me and telling me it's going to be okay.

[00:23:39] Right.

[00:23:40] You know, and that's what I need sometimes is just someone to tell me I'm okay.

[00:23:45] In my head, I'm not okay.

[00:23:48] And I'm all kinds of crazy.

[00:23:50] And I'm all over the place sometimes in my own head.

[00:23:54] And she kind of helps me, helps bring me back down to earth.

[00:23:58] And I think that's real helpful, a shoulder to cry on.

[00:24:02] Right.

[00:24:02] Absolutely.

[00:24:03] So just being there for us, even though you, especially those who have heard our stories

[00:24:11] and know what we've gone through.

[00:24:14] Yeah.

[00:24:14] Just be there for us.

[00:24:16] And yes, sometimes we'll need a shoulder to cry on if we're having a really bad day or

[00:24:21] we're especially triggered.

[00:24:22] Absolutely.

[00:24:23] Anyone else?

[00:24:24] I think it's important to not judge, but accept, especially if they're just first revealing

[00:24:32] their story.

[00:24:33] Don't question them.

[00:24:35] Why did it take you so long?

[00:24:38] Why did you wait?

[00:24:39] Why didn't you tell anyone?

[00:24:40] Did you go to the police?

[00:24:42] That's one of the hardest questions for a survivor, especially a male survivor to answer.

[00:24:48] Did you go to the police?

[00:24:49] Well, why not?

[00:24:50] Or I know for me, I had some people that reacted really strongly in a way that they wanted to

[00:24:56] be aggressive about it.

[00:24:59] Right.

[00:25:00] They don't want to go to their house and beat them up.

[00:25:02] Yeah.

[00:25:02] Or, you know, you should call the police.

[00:25:06] You should, they should be arrested.

[00:25:08] And that did not work well for me.

[00:25:11] That was really, they basically made me regress and hide more.

[00:25:16] Yes.

[00:25:17] So just accept where they are.

[00:25:20] I think one of the good things you can do is ask them why they're sharing their story

[00:25:25] with you and what is it right now that they need?

[00:25:29] Why are they doing it right now?

[00:25:31] Not ask them, why have you waited so long?

[00:25:33] But what's going on?

[00:25:35] Why are you feeling, you know, are you having suicidal thoughts?

[00:25:39] Are you wanting to do something dangerous?

[00:25:42] Are you in danger?

[00:25:44] That's one of the most important things you can ask someone if they're first telling their

[00:25:48] story is, are you in danger?

[00:25:50] Are you still in a relationship with this perpetrator?

[00:25:53] Are you safe?

[00:25:55] And if not, how can you get to a safe place?

[00:25:59] Right.

[00:25:59] And with disclosing to authorities so many horror stories out there that, I mean, men tend

[00:26:06] to wait up to, on average, 25 years to disclose.

[00:26:09] So you're dealing with statute of limitations.

[00:26:11] Plus it's he said, he said, or he said, she said.

[00:26:14] There's no evidence.

[00:26:15] So the police will take a report, but they will not do anything even right after it happens.

[00:26:22] Not that people are, the survivors are in a frame of mind to tell right away.

[00:26:28] That's the gap in disclosure.

[00:26:31] But even when they do, they'll get victim blamed or it's even more traumatizing to disclose

[00:26:40] to authorities.

[00:26:40] So many horror stories about that.

[00:26:43] And that's why so many choose not to.

[00:26:46] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:26:47] Doug?

[00:26:48] I agree with all those things.

[00:26:50] Like the person should really focus on listening.

[00:26:54] Don't make value judgments.

[00:26:56] Don't make any kind of judgments.

[00:26:58] Don't make interpretations of what the person is telling you.

[00:27:02] Don't become overly emotional.

[00:27:03] I think it's another one.

[00:27:05] Like don't jump into that.

[00:27:06] Well, I just want to go kill that person.

[00:27:09] Or, you know, I want to go beat that person up.

[00:27:12] You know, that's not what the person needs.

[00:27:14] They don't need you to rescue them.

[00:27:17] They just need you to be with them in the moment.

[00:27:20] It's very much like sitting with someone after a death.

[00:27:24] They just need your presence to be there with them as they tell their story.

[00:27:29] They need to be heard.

[00:27:31] They need to be assured that they're being heard,

[00:27:34] that you understand, empathize with them.

[00:27:38] Don't sympathize with them.

[00:27:40] You know, I can understand how you feel that way.

[00:27:43] Not, oh, that's so terrible that happened to you.

[00:27:46] You know, you must feel awful.

[00:27:48] You know, that's not really helpful.

[00:27:50] But to just be there and to be a friend and to be a support,

[00:27:55] thank them for their story,

[00:27:56] encourage them about their bravery in being able to say this

[00:28:01] and how difficult it must have been for them to do that

[00:28:05] and that you're honored to hear their story

[00:28:07] and share in this moment with them.

[00:28:10] Right.

[00:28:10] And make sure you believe them.

[00:28:12] I told my sister several years ago,

[00:28:14] and right away she said,

[00:28:16] I believe you.

[00:28:17] Those are the first words out of her mouth.

[00:28:19] And that was so helpful and healing for me

[00:28:24] just to know that she believed me.

[00:28:27] That's the best things you can say out the gate.

[00:28:30] I believe you.

[00:28:31] Because who would make up this stuff?

[00:28:33] And why would you make up this stuff?

[00:28:35] So, yes, please believe.

[00:28:38] Absolutely.

[00:28:40] Anything else?

[00:28:41] What can non-survivors do to help survivors heal?

[00:28:44] Luke, you wanted to add something?

[00:28:46] Yeah, just to throw it off with what Doug was saying.

[00:28:48] But I think one of the harder things for me was

[00:28:51] when I tell my story,

[00:28:53] just like some people have heard my story,

[00:28:55] and they just,

[00:28:55] oh, I'm so sorry that it happened to you,

[00:28:58] or acting like they know what it's like.

[00:29:01] You know, you can't imagine what this is like

[00:29:03] unless you've been through it.

[00:29:05] And I think it's just,

[00:29:06] for me, it's a really hard thing for years.

[00:29:09] I'm so sorry that it happened to you.

[00:29:11] And just this,

[00:29:12] what it seems like lack of sympathy,

[00:29:14] and it might not be.

[00:29:16] But, again, it's really just about being there for that person,

[00:29:20] not saying,

[00:29:21] I'm sorry this happened,

[00:29:22] or, you know,

[00:29:23] just be there,

[00:29:24] and I believe you.

[00:29:25] Right.

[00:29:26] Absolutely.

[00:29:27] I think one of the things that's really helpful

[00:29:29] is also to reassure them

[00:29:31] it wasn't their fault.

[00:29:33] You don't blame them for it.

[00:29:35] It wasn't your fault.

[00:29:36] You didn't deserve it.

[00:29:38] It should never have happened to you.

[00:29:40] Right.

[00:29:40] Yeah.

[00:29:41] And it's not your shame to hold.

[00:29:42] It's the perpetrator's.

[00:29:44] Right.

[00:29:45] They have the guilt and the shame

[00:29:47] belong on the perpetrator,

[00:29:48] not on you.

[00:29:49] Right.

[00:29:50] Absolutely.

[00:29:52] Any final thoughts?

[00:29:53] Douglas, we'll start with you.

[00:29:54] No, I'm just so thankful that

[00:29:56] we have a day and a time

[00:29:58] where people can be recognized

[00:30:01] for being a survivor,

[00:30:03] and that they have come through this,

[00:30:05] and that they can have a voice,

[00:30:08] and that there is someone who can hear them.

[00:30:10] I think we've just had

[00:30:11] kind of an open dialogue tonight,

[00:30:13] but a lot of really important things

[00:30:14] have been said,

[00:30:15] and I hope it proves to be meaningful

[00:30:17] for somebody out there,

[00:30:18] no matter what point they are at

[00:30:20] in their journey.

[00:30:22] Absolutely.

[00:30:23] Absolutely.

[00:30:23] Thank you, Doug.

[00:30:24] Let's go to Luke.

[00:30:25] Any closing thoughts?

[00:30:27] Not really.

[00:30:27] I mean, I'm grateful to this,

[00:30:29] just to be able to be here

[00:30:31] and participate in this,

[00:30:33] and I am grateful for a day

[00:30:34] that survivors are recognized.

[00:30:37] Right.

[00:30:37] You know, we're not recognized,

[00:30:40] but we...

[00:30:41] Acknowledged.

[00:30:41] People see, yeah, recognize that...

[00:30:44] Right, exactly.

[00:30:45] ...we've been through this,

[00:30:46] and we're surviving this.

[00:30:48] Remember, it's not your fault.

[00:30:50] Absolutely.

[00:30:51] It's not your shame,

[00:30:51] it's the perpetrator's shame.

[00:30:53] Absolutely.

[00:30:54] Kevin, final thoughts?

[00:30:55] There is healing.

[00:30:57] There is hope.

[00:30:58] It's not always easy at first,

[00:31:00] especially at first.

[00:31:01] It can feel like it gets worse at first

[00:31:04] when you're first going through it.

[00:31:05] Sometimes you have to go through

[00:31:06] some really hard stuff.

[00:31:08] Absolutely.

[00:31:09] Get to the healing and hope,

[00:31:11] but there is healing.

[00:31:12] There is hope.

[00:31:13] The process is worth it.

[00:31:14] It's so much better

[00:31:16] to do the work,

[00:31:17] to do the hard stuff.

[00:31:19] Get through it,

[00:31:19] because your life will be

[00:31:21] so much better

[00:31:22] than just stuffing it

[00:31:24] and coping with it

[00:31:26] and just living with it

[00:31:29] and coping whatever ways

[00:31:31] you're coping.

[00:31:32] I know the ways I cope,

[00:31:33] we're just so unhealthy.

[00:31:35] So there is healing

[00:31:37] and there is hope

[00:31:38] and you can do it.

[00:31:39] You've been through

[00:31:40] the worst already.

[00:31:42] Absolutely.

[00:31:44] Do I have any final thoughts?

[00:31:46] I'll second Kevin.

[00:31:47] You can find

[00:31:48] Hope and Healing

[00:31:49] even if you feel

[00:31:50] you don't have resources.

[00:31:51] There's tons of free stuff

[00:31:52] out there,

[00:31:53] tons of support groups

[00:31:54] you can take advantage of

[00:31:55] online,

[00:31:56] in person.

[00:31:58] You just have to ask.

[00:31:59] And if you need to ask,

[00:32:00] you can contact me,

[00:32:02] all of our contact information

[00:32:03] will be in the show notes

[00:32:05] as well.

[00:32:06] Reach out.

[00:32:07] And I think

[00:32:09] one recent quote

[00:32:11] I heard,

[00:32:13] chase your pain

[00:32:14] and you will find

[00:32:15] your healing.

[00:32:16] So do not

[00:32:17] step it down.

[00:32:18] Try to

[00:32:19] numb it with substances.

[00:32:22] Try to ignore it.

[00:32:24] Face it head on

[00:32:25] and you will

[00:32:27] find your healing.

[00:32:29] And

[00:32:30] thank you so much

[00:32:31] for my guests

[00:32:33] including

[00:32:33] Dan Carlson

[00:32:34] and Doug Carpenter

[00:32:36] and Luke Wiersma

[00:32:37] and Kevin Bolger.

[00:32:38] One more thing, Kevin?

[00:32:39] Yeah.

[00:32:40] I just want to say

[00:32:41] to anyone listening

[00:32:42] or anyone

[00:32:42] watching

[00:32:43] that your story

[00:32:44] does matter

[00:32:46] and your story

[00:32:47] can help others,

[00:32:49] can give someone else

[00:32:50] the courage

[00:32:50] to share their story

[00:32:52] to come forward.

[00:32:53] So you might not

[00:32:55] even know it

[00:32:55] but you can be

[00:32:56] helping someone else

[00:32:57] to get the healing.

[00:32:59] Absolutely.

[00:33:00] And that's a theme

[00:33:01] of my podcast

[00:33:01] Power of Story.

[00:33:02] It not only helps

[00:33:04] your own healing

[00:33:04] as we found out

[00:33:05] from the Ace Guy

[00:33:06] but sharing it

[00:33:08] inspires others

[00:33:09] to find healing

[00:33:11] when they hear

[00:33:11] your story

[00:33:12] and it's like

[00:33:13] this guy got help

[00:33:14] I can get help too.

[00:33:15] So absolutely.

[00:33:18] And

[00:33:19] again

[00:33:19] healing

[00:33:20] is out there.

[00:33:22] There are

[00:33:23] additional episodes

[00:33:24] on my podcast

[00:33:25] you can find out

[00:33:26] more

[00:33:26] polarlifeconsulting.com

[00:33:28] slash podcast

[00:33:30] for all my

[00:33:31] previous episodes

[00:33:32] including

[00:33:33] featuring

[00:33:34] these three men

[00:33:35] here

[00:33:35] and Dan Carlson

[00:33:36] and new episodes

[00:33:38] every week

[00:33:39] we record

[00:33:40] Tuesdays

[00:33:41] if you want

[00:33:41] to join us live

[00:33:42] for future

[00:33:44] podcast episode

[00:33:45] events

[00:33:45] information on that

[00:33:47] is on

[00:33:48] polarlifeconsulting.com

[00:33:49] slash live

[00:33:51] and

[00:33:52] thank you so much

[00:33:54] and

[00:33:55] we'll see you

[00:33:56] next time

[00:33:56] on the

[00:33:57] Healing for Male Survivors

[00:33:58] podcast

[00:34:02] If you would like

[00:34:03] to learn more

[00:34:03] about my coaching

[00:34:04] with Polar Live

[00:34:05] Consulting

[00:34:06] where I provide

[00:34:07] one-on-one

[00:34:07] coaching

[00:34:08] and group

[00:34:09] coaching

[00:34:09] both with a

[00:34:10] focus on

[00:34:11] healing

[00:34:11] for male

[00:34:12] survivors

[00:34:13] reach out to

[00:34:14] me at

[00:34:15] polarlifeconsulting.com

[00:34:16] that is

[00:34:17] polar spelled

[00:34:18] p-o-l-a-r

[00:34:19] I would love to

[00:34:21] hear from you

[00:34:21] I want to

[00:34:22] hear your story

[00:34:23] if you would

[00:34:24] like your story

[00:34:25] featured on this

[00:34:26] podcast

[00:34:26] contact me

[00:34:27] via my

[00:34:27] website

[00:34:28] if you like

[00:34:29] this podcast

[00:34:30] please rate

[00:34:31] and review

[00:34:31] because that's

[00:34:32] how other

[00:34:32] people can

[00:34:33] find me

[00:34:33] and I really

[00:34:34] want to spread

[00:34:35] this message

[00:34:35] of healing

[00:34:36] and hope

[00:34:36] to others

[00:34:37] and remember

[00:34:38] you are not

[00:34:39] alone

[00:34:40] healing

[00:34:41] is possible

[00:34:42] and the abuse

[00:34:43] was not

[00:34:44] your fault

[00:34:44] let me repeat

[00:34:46] that

[00:34:46] the abuse

[00:34:47] was not

[00:34:48] your fault

[00:34:49] see you next

[00:34:50] time on

[00:34:51] the Healing

[00:34:52] for Male

[00:34:52] Survivors

[00:34:53] podcast