55 - Live Interview with Dr. Mark Barber

[00:00:03] Welcome to the Healing for Male Survivors podcast. This is a podcast for male survivors of sexual abuse and assault, whether as a child or as an adult. Know that you are not alone and the abuse was not your fault. My name is Mike Chapman. I'm a certified recovery life coach and also a survivor. Let's find hope and healing together.

[00:00:28] And welcome to the Healing for Male Survivors podcast. This is your host Mike Chapman, part of Polar Life Consulting and I have a live audience. If you ever like to join us live for future podcast episodes, you can learn all the details about joining us at polarlifeconsulting.com slash live.

[00:00:51] Today with me I have Mark Barber, Dr. Mark Barber in fact, who is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and trauma. A majority of his abuse occurred in the church. Curious to learn more about that.

[00:01:07] Mark Barber, Mark began an earnest search towards wholeness 20 years ago. The healing journey has included battles with PTSD, anxiety, same sex attraction, isolation and working to have a healthy understanding of God, which I totally understand.

[00:01:22] He is currently a board certified family physician. So Dr. Mark, and he's working for the University of Texas. He's been married for 37 years, having four adult children and six grandchildren. Ooh, grandpa goals. I have two adult children and no grandchildren, but they're either one are married. A little jealous, but that's okay.

[00:01:45] He is involved with multiple emotional healing organizations, including Brothers Road, Husband Material and Edge Venture. And I was honored to work with Mark at the last Husband Material retreat for 2024 and was lovely to work hand in hand with them to help men find healing.

[00:02:07] He also has played keyboards and piano for worship teams since childhood. He is also an avid gardener. So welcome, Mark Barber. And we're going to start this off like we do all other episodes with four questions.

[00:02:29] Now it's time for four questions, that part of the podcast, when we get to know our guest a bit better by asking a few questions. Let's go. So, Mark, what is your favorite food memory? My favorite food memory is a pie my mom used to make, rhubarb custard. It was absolutely phenomenal. My mom was a great cook. Yes. Did you grow your own rhubarb? Because I know sometimes you can grow it wild.

[00:02:57] We did. This was in Michigan, so we grew our own rhubarb. Wow. Yeah. I remember in elementary school, there was a park in the back of the school. And yeah, there was the rhubarb growing like it was a weed on the edge. And we'd take it out and chew it. And it's like really sour and bitter. But it's like it was cool because it was rhubarb. But yeah, how interesting. And I'm sure it was made with lots of love. It was definitely lots of love and lots of sugar.

[00:03:26] Oh, of course. We're all with rhubarb. You kind of have to do that. So what is your favorite Christmas or holiday memory? So I grew up on a farm, a dairy farm. I had this amazing Christmas. I think I was like seven. My parents went all out and got me like every piece of toy farm implement I could want. Wow. New combine, wagon, baler. That Christmas, I remember thinking I was like king of the world.

[00:03:53] I had everything anyone could ever want in their life. Wow. That's excellent. So how big was your farm? Well, we farmed about 300 acres when I was younger. And then as my dad got older and retired, he sold off parts of it. Wow. So lots of farm animals, I'm assuming? Yeah, we did dairy, but we mainly had just cattle. And then I had chickens when I was a teenager.

[00:04:22] Oh, okay. Wow. So what is your favorite church or house of worship memory? Yeah. So the church question is a little trickier for me. So I'm going to go out of the church to answer this for favorite. Okay. It was actually an edge venture weekend I did probably 15 years ago where we had like 60 or 70 guys all just praising God and singing the healer and some of the Chris Tomlin songs.

[00:04:49] It was just a wonderful place to be in that space of safety and invite God's presence. It was a Sunday morning church service. That's one of my all-time favorite periods of worship in my life. Nice. So for those of us who are not familiar, what exactly is edge venture? So edge venture is an emotional healing weekend for men who are struggling with anything.

[00:05:15] So it is Christian-based. It started in Michigan. I believe they've added there's one in Tennessee, I think, and maybe one in Iowa. If you're a Christian that's struggling, it's a good place to go and find healing. Wonderful. Yes. I've gone to several men's events and you have men worshiping together is just so cool because that doesn't happen very often.

[00:05:39] I mean, even in church, I mean, maybe a quarter or less of the guys even try to sing unless they're up on stage. So yeah, I'm in that quarter usually. Yeah, and husband material, the guys all singing How Great Thou Art. That was absolutely beautiful that Sunday. Yeah, yes, yes. And what is your favorite scripture or any inspirational quote that has helped you on your spiritual journey?

[00:06:08] And what about it speaks to you? So my current quote, and I tend to change these every few months, but Jeremiah 1.5, Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I sanctified you. I love that scripture. And what about that speaks to you? Because it lets me know that originally I was loved by God and was desired and wanted and basically loved by God. Right. Right. That makes a lot of sense.

[00:06:38] So with your love for God, even though it sounds like part of your story involves some really bad church hurts, tell us your story. And like a lot of us, I know my story, it kind of bounces all around the timeline as things get disclosed. So feel free to go wherever you need to go, backward and forward in time, whatever you need to do.

[00:06:59] And then let me know how it's been going on your healing journey as well and what things have worked and what things haven't worked that you've tried as part of your healing journey. And then I'd love to know more about what you're doing these days, including your work with Edge Venture and all those other men's groups and the fact that you're a doctor and you're also kind of a life coach, I guess, and working with men in other ways and helping them find healing. So I'd love to learn more about all of that.

[00:07:28] So let's start with your story. Okay. So, yeah, let me jump into my story. So it kind of has what I think of as three parts. The first one, I was about 10 and I got invited over to a family member's house to spend the night with my nieces and nephews. And the family member had taken on a foster child who was 17. So I was 10, he was 17.

[00:07:53] And he showed an interest in me, which was very different from my sister's boyfriends, shall we say. I have three older sisters and their boyfriends absolutely did not want me around at all. And anyway, so it was a contrast. Anyway, so he invited me into his bedroom one night. It was just him and I. And I made my bed on the floor. And before I knew it, he invited me into his bed. I didn't. I was very much not sexual.

[00:08:21] I just didn't think those thoughts. And so anyway. So you know where this story is going, I'm sure. He invited me into his bed. I didn't, before long, he had his hands down my pants. And how old was he and how old were you? I was 10 and he was 17. Wow. I remembered all the feelings in my body of just being a little boy and being touched in that way. And I had never experienced anything like that.

[00:08:48] And I remember just being completely overwhelmed and just feeling like I was going to either blow up or disappear. And this one, Ani, he asked, I won't get into too many details here, but he asked to do different things to me. And I didn't say no, but I also, I think, made it pretty clear I wasn't really interested in doing any of the things he wanted to do to me. He attempted like rectal penetration and things like that. So this got pretty involved.

[00:09:17] Actually, I was freaked out and overwhelmed to the point I just said to him, I'm going to sleep. I just remember saying, I'm really tired. And I just went to sleep. And I think at this point with the, just knowing now what I know, I think what I basically did, it just almost went like into a catatonic state and just put myself to sleep just from being overwhelmed. Do you think he continued even after you had fallen asleep? I'm sure he did. Yeah. Okay.

[00:09:43] In the morning when I woke up, he was standing over my bed naked with an erection with stuff coming out of his penis that I didn't know what that was. That just freaked me out. So I quickly got myself together, grabbed my blanket or whatever and left the room. And honestly, it didn't. Somehow my brain just kind of packaged it. It was a weird experience, but it didn't really have a context. So I didn't know what to do with it.

[00:10:11] I just, it was just like one of those things, you know, oh, well, I've never done that before, but now I have. And I didn't particularly like it, but it didn't seem to have any impact. And I wouldn't say I forgot about it, but it just wasn't a big, a big deal for me. Until about four to six months later, I heard a couple other family members talking about homosexuality. And I didn't know what that was.

[00:10:32] And so I asked and I learned that it was males having genital contact with each other or having sex with each other. And it occurred to me that I had engaged with that with Ed. And I immediately had just this wash of guilt and fear, like I was going to go to hell for what I had done. And I desperately wanted to find someone to talk to, to explore that with.

[00:11:01] And I tried to reach out to a couple people. One was a church leader. One was somebody in my family. By just putting out little pieces of my story, like a fleece. Right. Well, and that's true. We talk about disclosure. And most men, first it takes an average of 25 years from the time the abuse ends to the time of your first disclosure. But when people, when men do tend to disclose, it's a little piece at a time to test the waters.

[00:11:28] It's like, okay, I'll give them this little snippet of truth and we'll see how they handle it. And then, okay, then we might go a little bit deeper just to test the waters and see how they take it. And that's a very normal response to trying to disclose this horrific truth that you have no idea how it's going to be received. So, yes, please continue. Exactly that, Mike. Exactly that. Unfortunately, even though the people I attempted to talk to were very good, wonderful people, it's not that.

[00:11:58] I didn't know what to say, how to say it, which, of course, I would have been probably about 11 at this time. So I kept searching. And so at this time, my mom and dad decided to go to different churches. My mom wanted to follow a real conservative branch of the holiness religion. My dad was a little more moderate, which most of us would consider my dad's religion to be a little more than normal. My mom was quite extreme.

[00:12:22] Anyway, at my mom's church, there was another youth leader who took an interest in me. He was not a pastor, a youth leader. He was also 17. At the time I was 11. And he showed an interest in me. He offered to pick me up after school a couple of times. So my mom or my family arranged that to happen. So after a couple of visits with him, I opened it just, I was like a dam bursting.

[00:12:47] And I just opened up everything that had happened between me and the first guy. And he was very empathic and feeling and kind and loving. And then he turned to me and said, well, if you want me to help you with this, I'm going to have to see your penis. And I remember thinking, well, this is really bizarre, but OK.

[00:13:11] Anyway, so there began that descent into hell, which is what it ended up being. I didn't know it, but he had a big history of sexually abusing multiple boys in the neighborhood in church. So he had a method and he had experience and he knew what he was doing. He was very, very good at sexually abusing boys.

[00:13:37] So he began this mind educational program for me to learn that having an erection was a sin, a wet dream was a sin. Noticing somebody that you're attracted to is a sin. And we began to have sessions together where he would pull down my pants and I would have my genitals hit by, he always carried a comb in his pocket.

[00:14:06] That was a common thing boys did in the 80s. Right. Yeah, I remember. I have those combs. Yeah. So he would pull my pants down. And this happened in the basement of the church frequently. I would basically do confession and then I would have my genitals hit for confessing the sins that I just kind of talked about.

[00:14:25] So he would use sin and repentance and so forth to then physically abuse your genitals as some kind of penance. Correct. So did this? OK, so. But it sounds like he did more than that as well. Well, in part, I guess for him being willing to help me with this, my job was to then give him oral. Wow. OK, mind blown.

[00:14:55] So logically, that means he would have an erection. He would then have an ejaculation. But somehow he was immune from those sins? Yeah. Somehow? I mean, to an adult brain, this is absolutely crazy. To a scared 11-year-old that thought they were going to die and go to hell every night, this was somewhat logical. Now, I figured it out.

[00:15:23] It's not like I stayed in a stupid state. You did grow up to become a doctor, so you've got some kind of sense in there. Yes. So, yeah, so this happened, I don't know how many times. It was many dozens of times. It often happened in church. It went on a lot longer than I should have allowed it to happen. But that's part of the grooming. He used his spiritual position to groom you into thinking, well, I need to do this or I will go to hell. Yes.

[00:15:53] He had some literature that he'd accumulated over time. Oh, I'm sure he did. He probably wrote some of it. Yeah, I remember him showing me pages in a book about it being how sinful it was if a boy had a wet dream. Wow. It's in the Bible. It's like, yes, if you have a nocturnal admission, then you're just, you're considered unclean. But, I mean, so is being on, a woman being on their cycle.

[00:16:20] You know, you're temporary unclean, and so you just have to do ceremonial washing, blah, blah, blah, for a couple days. And that's it. But it is mentioned. But it doesn't say, this is a horrible sin. If this happens, it's just, you're temporary unclean, just like all these other things. And so you're ceremonially unclean. But that's all it says. But to have someone use that position, and that's why clergy abuse, which includes church leaders who are not ordained,

[00:16:48] anyone in that leadership position, it's a double abuse where you're not only abused physically and sexually, but also spiritually and taking advantage of that. And because they are the representative of God to you and to skew that. And so many do not come back from that. I've talked to so many survivors who have church or clergy abuse as part of their story.

[00:17:14] And they've just turned away from church altogether, turned away from any kind of organized religion. Some will choose to do some, and some have been on my podcast before, some kind of spirituality in their healing, but not organized religion, especially not the one that they came out of from the abuse. So, yes, please continue. Right.

[00:17:38] So, yeah, Mike, one of the things that it's taken me actually a lot of years to sort out was when I was 11, he was God's representative. And the things he did to me were from God. Now, they weren't in reality, but at the time, I was having my genitals beat because God wanted them to be beat.

[00:18:05] I was having my genitals beat because I was having an erection, because I was having wet dreams, or because I noticed somebody that was attractive. And so that created a lot of just chaos in my understanding of what kind of a God is it that we're serving? You know, it feeds into that. And the other thing about a really conservative religion, there's a big component, at least for me, in the religion I was raised in,

[00:18:31] of setting yourself apart, being separate from the world, being different from the world. So pulling yourself out, being different, and then suffering for the cause of Christ was put right into that mix. So that was also a part of my genitals being hit was I was suffering so I could be a good Christian. And, you know, honestly, I know that theologically this is profoundly messed up. I'm not. Yes. I'm a very active, very happy Christian now.

[00:19:01] So I'm not anti-Christian at all. But it is a very powerful force, and it can really be twisted and messed up in a kid's mind like you were just talking about. Absolutely. Absolutely. So please continue. How did this continue? How did that end? Whatever happened? So that's kind of like phase two was the situation with the church leader. I started to become quite jumpy, quite anxious, and I think quite a bit of that was the PTSD.

[00:19:28] I've already been a high-energy, anxious person anyway, but this just put it into high gear. For some reason, my dad decided to yank me out of a really good school and put me into a really horrible school. I do not know why that was decided. At age 13, I got yanked and put into a school where I knew almost no one. It was like 25 minutes from my house, so I knew nobody.

[00:19:54] And the first day in class, in algebra class, JV team was in there, and a kid behind me dropped a MacBook behind me on the floor and made a huge, loud crashing noise. And I jumped, and the whole JV team saw that. And so I started getting bullied just mercilessly from day one, hour one.

[00:20:20] And so over the next few months, I was threatened to be killed multiple times. I'd get shoved and hit and groped and tripped, and it was just absolute bullying. And so many teachers burned out and could care less. It was like I didn't – there was a couple teachers that, you know, would try to keep people online, but a lot of the teachers just turned an eye. They didn't care. So was it just because of that?

[00:20:48] I know working with you, you're on the shorter side, and I'm on the taller side. Were you short statured in that time? Because I was always – I was a late bloomer, and I was always on the short end. If you lined up all my classmates, I would be way towards the bottom, not the shortest, but maybe like the bottom three or five. No, I wasn't – I mean, I was probably pretty close to my height now, which is – I was 5'10". Okay. Obviously, there were guys that were a lot bigger than I was. Right. So you didn't stand out as being extra short?

[00:21:18] No, I was a farm kid. So, you know, I could – one-on-one, I could stand up for myself, but you take six boys. I can't stand up for six. Right. You play football. It's just no freaking way. Right. So, unfortunately, one of the slang words that were really common in the 80s to use if you're going to bully somebody was the word faggot. I got called that, and I didn't know it, but at that school, that's what everybody got called.

[00:21:45] But to me, it meant somehow that they knew about my past. And I was 13 at this point, so I didn't have mature adult thought processes going on. And so I started to feel like I had this tattoo on my head that said I wanted to engage in behaviors I didn't want to engage in.

[00:22:12] And I didn't know how I was communicating that. I didn't know how they picked up on that. In reality, they hadn't. But, again, I didn't know that. So I began to be – lots of shame, just feeling really defective. So the previous year in my good school, I was actually quite popular. I had a lot of friends. I was very well connected. I tend to be a really good student. So I had absolutely no shortage of friends. So I went from that to absolutely like the absolute bottom of the bottom in the new school.

[00:22:42] And, of course, at least I couldn't. I couldn't go home and just tell my family, hey, you know, I'm being brutalized at school and it's living hell. I tried to share a little bit, but anyway. So you did not disclose that to your parents? I did not. No. My parents knew none of this stuff until I was an adult. So nobody in my family. I became incredibly depressed and withdrawn when I was 14, 15.

[00:23:10] I had bought a couple scalpels and I would sit on my bed at night with a scalpel and pray and try to ask God to help me to come up with one reason why I should live another day or instead of slitting my carotid artery or my wrist. For some reason, I would usually find something to look forward to, to want to survive longer.

[00:23:32] When I got to 15 or so, I started having anger, which was not really allowed in my home growing up. And I started setting boundaries. I look at it now. It was very, very healthy anger. I started setting boundaries with the guy at church who was abusing me, saying no, saying what we were or we're not going to do. But the abuse was continuing through this time as well. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:58] What happened is, as I went through all these experiences, I completely, I started to hate men. I hated masculinity on a certain level. Right. And my whole world of men collapsed into one, the one man who was abusing me at church. That was the whole world of safe men in my life. Outside of some family members. I have some, I have actually a really great family, so I'm not dissing on my family here.

[00:24:27] But I didn't have friends or companions that I felt like I was a part of. So my world really, really shrunk. And then the abuser at church, basically when I started withdrawing from him, he was basically like, well, you're too old for me anyway. I'm going to dump you and I want you to help recruit other kids for me.

[00:24:50] And it was this deep awareness that just hit me like a ton of bricks that I was just absolutely being used. I had been abused, used. I was being thrown out. It was just this horrible realization that somebody I thought on a certain level had cared for me absolutely didn't at all. I was just being used. Yeah, we're all meat. Exactly.

[00:25:17] When I got to 11th grade, so I was 16, I was setting boundaries, taking care of myself. Told my mom I was not going to go to that church anymore. I started going to my dad's church and got away from him. So my 11th and 12th grades started kind of rebalanced. I had a girlfriend. So at this point, it had gone on for what, a good six, seven years with this guy?

[00:25:45] Yeah, 11 to even touching into 17 a little bit. Wow. So if he started at 17, then he was what, 23, 24 by the time it ended? Yeah, he was married and had kids by this time. Wow. Wow. So I love Janita Fisher's book, Healing the Fred Men Itself. It's an IFS book. But she talks in there about the going on with normal life part.

[00:26:11] I, it started, starting at 16, I really worked at going on with my normal life part. My grades suffered, by the way, when I was in the middle of this god-awful period. I'm sure. So my grades went back up. I got in the honor society. I was doing good. I had got a girlfriend, was dating, had a car. I left for college at 17. And again, I was, I was pretty good in school.

[00:26:37] So I went to a Christian college, had a really good experience there. I was dating. I had friends there. I seemed to fit in. The awkwardness or whatever from high school was gone. I was still incredibly isolated and alone, though. I was very uncomfortable and felt very unsafe to be on a, in a college dorm with a bunch of guys. Oh yeah, I'm sure. I could not settle into that as being safe.

[00:27:06] So I constantly kept my guard up, constantly didn't share anything that I thought might come back to haunt me in any possible way. Dated some girls, met my future wife, fell in love. We got married. And of course I did premarital counseling and I told somebody about my past and was told, you know, just get married and it'll all go away. Of course it will. Yes. Marriage. And that you won't have any stress in your life and all your sexual problems will suddenly disappear.

[00:27:36] Yes. That's right. Yes. Doesn't happen that way. And then of course, Mike, when you're told that stuff and it doesn't work, it was my fault. Of course. I was more screwed up because A, I was so messed up God couldn't even take it all away. And B, if I knew what I was doing in the marriage, I wouldn't have any problems because that's what the preacher told me. Right.

[00:28:00] So, so many well-meaning individuals, spiritual individuals giving crap advice. And I've heard crap advice myself. It's like, no, no. Yeah. But obviously you were able to get past that. So you disclosed to this marriage counselor person. Was that your first disclosure ever about what had happened? Yeah. And that was only a partial.

[00:28:29] I probably just told him I was sexually abused and didn't go into much, much detail. And again, I mean, he was a, he was a good guy. It's no shade on him. And how old were you at this point? So I'd have been like 20. Okay. And then I did try to see a therapist, but it was, I didn't have any money. And so it was just people that were more into crisis management and I wasn't really suicidal.

[00:28:58] So I just got kind of the 20 minute talk and told the suicidal kind of thing. But so I was a couple of years into marriage and I kind of, I became really depressed. Really? I was suicidal and I kind of made a decision. I was either going to, I was going to apply to medical school and I was either going to get in or I was going to commit suicide. That was my career path juncture. And I applied to medical school and I got in.

[00:29:26] So I had kind of eight wonderful years because I just shut off everything. I packaged everything up, put it in a box, became a robot and just studied really hard. And in medical school, you are really, really rewarded for that behavior. Right. Not emotional, just being a walking computer or a walking Spock. You, you really get a lot of accolades for doing that. So that's what I did. Interesting.

[00:29:52] I chose similar career with the interpreting where, yeah, you put your own personality aside and you serve these two individuals that you're or whoever, sometimes multiple people that you're working with. And you are as neutral as possible. You move your own self and put it to the side so you don't have to feel. You just use these other people's words and you go from language A to language B. And yeah, you're a robot.

[00:30:18] And yeah, you devote your life and your attention to it and you're awarded for it. And then you become this wonderful interpreter. But yeah, it's not horribly healthy at all. No. Yeah. My poor wife noticed that it wasn't healthy also. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. Likewise. Yeah. She did not want to be married to Spock. So anyway, she had to endure those painful years when I was completely emotionally gone.

[00:30:46] But so I got off training and then I'm in my late 20s. And just horror hit me that as I started to have time to reflect and think and feel and be again and just, you know, instead of working 110 hours a week, I was working 50, 60. And I had time to think and feel. And that was really uncomfortable. Right. So and then it took me a few years to kind of get my bearings.

[00:31:13] But that's when I really said, OK, if I'm going to stay alive, I've got to do some I've got to figure out a pathway to do some healing. I'm going to have to reach out and get some help and get some therapy. And right. So at what point did you finally disclose what had happened to your wife? So my wife and I were best friends before we got married. Right. Before we started dating, I should say. So we had shared each other's stories.

[00:31:38] So my wife, within like just a few weeks or a month or two of knowing me, she knew all my crap or a lot of it anyway. Oh, so you did disclose to her. Yes. So her and I shared each other. She she's also been through some rough things. And so we we kind of we developed a really, really close, bonding, intimate friendship just on sharing stories. We go on walks together on campus and we were both dating other people. So it wasn't that it was just right. You became friends.

[00:32:08] Yeah. Yeah. And so a lot of female friends in college, too. Yeah. That was very common. Yeah. So my wife never had to go through like any kind of traumatic disclosure or because she knew she knew she knew what she was getting into when she married me. Right. How did that go when you first told her as friends what had happened? What was her response? Well, I think because we were just friends getting to know each other, we were really able to just do what I know now to do.

[00:32:36] And that's just be loving, accepting, tolerant, curious, you know, nonjudgmental because we weren't like married or raising kids together or something. She didn't have me have a need for me to be other than what I was. So it really allowed for a safe place for us just to open up and share what our struggles and fears and pains were. So. Right.

[00:33:02] Now, going back to this youth leader person, did you ever disclose to church leadership what happened? I did. A couple years after I was married, somehow I got wind that he was abusing a couple other kids in the community. I don't remember now, but somebody called me and kind of wanted me to intervene. So I came home. I told my parents what had happened.

[00:33:30] Because I was not living at home anymore. I was married. Then called a church meeting and it was the abuser and then his dad and a couple church leaders. And he admitted, you know, I only shared like 10% of what happened, but he admitted it. I mean, he was kind of caught right handed. So it was like.

[00:33:54] Anyway, that actually ended up in some pain in my life a little bit in that the blowback from some of the other church people were, well, you're equally guilty for this because you did it too. Absolutely. And victim blaming is. Yeah. And it was like, I never tried to pretend I was innocent of anything, but anybody who said that to me did not have any clue the depth of what had happened to me or the ages that had happened.

[00:34:24] And it's like, you know, before you say stuff, you really should make sure you know what you're talking about. Anyway, frustration and anger. It does make me mindful as a church member to, at least I try to be, before you pass judgment or make statements flippantly, you know, be really careful that you know what you're talking about. Right. So what were your parents' responses, especially your mother, because that was her church for a long time? Yeah. I mean, it was devastating to my mom. Absolutely devastating.

[00:34:54] I remember her crying for weeks. But, you know, my dad was the World War II generation and he, I tried to talk to him a little bit and he just couldn't talk to me on any kind of personal or emotional level. It was just like, well, that's too bad that happened and let's move on. You know, literally that's kind of what he said. Right. Wow. So you have gone through the disclosure process. You've been married for several years.

[00:35:21] So sounds like you started to also look into healing from a lot of this stuff. So what kind of things did you go through to further your healing journey? So initially I did the classic therapy route. I really struggled to find a therapist I could be comfortable with. During my suicidal feelings before med school, I had tried to talk with a therapist who kind of really wounded me. It was a female.

[00:35:50] And she was like, well, when you were being sexually abused, did you get erect? And I'm like, well, yeah. Well, then you must have enjoyed it. So you must be gay. Wow. My gosh. And so that really stuck deep within me. Right. Yeah. So it made me really uncomfortable feeling safe with a therapist again. But anyway, he was a good therapist. And I did the piecemeal of the story. Right.

[00:36:19] And of course, a lot of the story, we never actually went down into. So therapy was limited for me. I didn't really start getting great healing until I started being able to do experiential weekends with groups of men where I could feel safe. My first one was New Warriors, our mankind project. And we had small groups. And there was a couple of men that we were always there every week. We did small group together. And we had time to open up and share whatever we were struggling with.

[00:36:49] And over the course of a year or two, those guys got to know everything about my story. And this was not a Christian thing, but I was able to be in the presence of other adult men and feel safe and feel heard and feel loved and feel like I wasn't defective, like I wasn't a screw up, you know, unshamed.

[00:37:12] So that was the place where I kind of fell in love with experiential weekends and decided then and there this was something I wanted to do in my life. So then I got involved with Brothers Road and Edge Venture and I've done multiple other things as well. Right. And now Husband Material. And Nobleman. Yeah, the list is quite long. I've been blessed to be able to do lots of different things.

[00:37:36] And I've got to learn how to do psychodrama, which I did that in part to learn how to do my own work. But I really enjoy doing it. I really enjoy getting into other men's pain and stories and help them. And there's just something really beautiful to enter into a man's story and see the healing and the pain and shame lift. It is so beautiful. It's so sacred.

[00:38:03] And to be honest, Mike, it's the closest I feel to God. Even though it's not in church, it is the most spiritual. It is the most enlivening to see the Holy Spirit come in and just heal the painful wounds. There's nothing else like that experience for me. So it's a little bit like an addiction, to be honest. Right. Yeah, it totally is. I know I've been doing that a lot with Husband Material over the last few years and was thrilled to be able to team with you this fall.

[00:38:33] And, yeah, it's a profound experience helping men heal. And I know I went on Marked Men for Christ, which is similar to Edge Venture. They did that to me, especially the releasing anger thing, which is what we both worked through. And getting to my station, I was first in line and just poured out all this anger that I knew I was holding in and had a huge release.

[00:38:59] And I called the family member who abused me every name in the book and just poured it out and just loud. And I was first in line. And I had all these men behind me. It's like, well, dang, he went there, didn't he? Knowing how healing that was for me and to be able to bring that to other men. Yeah, it's just fabulous. But I like how you describe it. It's like this spiritual, heavenly experience.

[00:39:29] And you really feel God's presence and the work of the Holy Spirit in these sessions with men, for sure. So it sounds like you doing that. But it's like this vicarious healing. Instead of vicarious trauma, it's vicarious healing by helping other men heal and get through their stuff that kind of helps you with your own. To me, there's like a redeeming quality a little bit. It's like I can take the pain that I experienced and help make a positive out of it. Right. Right.

[00:39:59] And he's going to share my first cycle, my first weekend idea with the New Warriors. And I did a massive anger piece. And in my life, I had never used four-letter words, like literally, like never. Right. I shoved three adult men. One of them was like 260 pounds. They were holding a mattress. And I shoved them all across the room. I was so angry. Wow. Wow.

[00:40:28] But it was such a catharsis. And of course, usually when you're done with that level of intense anger, you know, you just collapse in a puddle of tears. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thankfully, well, I did not trust myself to, because I'm kind of big, to not hurt someone on the other end. So, yeah, my station was nice and safe, where it was a whole bunch of gym mats piled up, and then a few piled up in front of the pile. And then I kneeled down on the short pile, and then it was a tennis racket.

[00:40:58] And I could just go to town on my knees, nice padding, which my old body appreciated, and would go to town on this huge pile of mattresses with barely the edge of the tennis racket. And it's going to town on that thing. Yeah, just releasing, and yeah, every name I could think of. And yeah, it was so, so freeing, for sure. Healing weekends, check. Yeah, those have been helpful for me as well.

[00:41:28] What other things have you, it sounds like, yeah, therapy wasn't a huge hit for you. Have you done any other attempts at working on your own issues, your own healing?

[00:41:38] So, I've had good therapists, but one of the struggles I have had, and I've really, just in actually this year, I've really started to understand what I did to slow down my own healing was I was not open and authentic with my therapists enough to go into my story. What exactly happened to me? What were the stories I took on? What were the messages?

[00:42:05] Going over and over those with excruciating detail. My personality, maybe, I needed to have done that. Right. And instead, I would be with a therapist, and I'd be like, well, I'm representing God here, and I don't want him to think these kinds of things happen in churches, so I'm not going to share this part of my story and that part of my story. But when I did that, I just took my own healing away from myself. Right. Exactly.

[00:42:32] I know I just released an episode on ACEs, Adverse Childhood Experiences, and someone who was an expert on ACEs shared at some kind of conference recently, and someone in the audience came up, and she said, okay, it's a test, and it's points one to ten on how many specific adverse childhood experiences you've had. And it was a study. Go watch the episode. I explained the whole thing. But it's a scale of one to ten.

[00:43:01] Ten means you've had ten different types of really severe traumas in your life, and she had a nine. It's like, okay, now, if you have a really high score on this, what can I do to counteract the effects? And part of the study is all of these social, physical, emotional, mental effects that having several extreme childhood experiences has on you, and it's profound statistic-wise. All these huge things.

[00:43:30] How can I lessen the effects of all these traumatic experiences? And his answer was autobiographical journaling, telling your story, getting it out, however that is, whether it's with another person, writing it out, sharing it on a podcast like we're doing right now. All these things are so tremendously healing, getting it out.

[00:43:53] So all those pieces in your head, those things that you felt you could not disclose, it's like that stuff festers inside of you. For those of us with repressed memories, I mean, it's still there, and we have to figure out how to get that out and tell our stories. So we can heal, and that's one of the most healing things you can do when you've had a whole bunch of traumatic experiences is tell your story.

[00:44:21] So I want to remind our audience members who are joining with us live that if you have any questions for Mark, you can put them in the chat. And a reminder, you can be as anonymous as you would like. We will only say your name if you manually type it in with your question. So please continue. What else have you done on your healing journey?

[00:44:43] So I totally agree with the journaling, and I heard that over and over again, but it took me a lot of years before I started doing it. And now I frequently will journal 20 to 30 minutes a day, not necessarily about my past, but whatever is up for me. It is a very powerful tool. And if people are telling themselves they don't have time, yes, they do.

[00:45:09] And they can't say I can't afford to journal because anybody can afford a free app on their phone or their computer, or they can buy a ream of paper. You know, it really is an easy thing. So there's a book I kind of what you were going off. Henry Crystal wrote a book called Integration and Self-Healing, and he's like the godfather of PTSD. He's a very well-known. He was in the concentration camp as a little boy in Nazi. Oh, my goodness. And so he got out.

[00:45:37] And anyway, he's got some really good points in the book. Whatever thoughts, memories, things come into your mind, you need to pay attention to those and spend time thinking about what they have to say to you, what emotions are involved with them. I often hear trauma survivors are like, well, I've been over this story seven times. I'm tired of it. It's like, no. If parts of your story are popping into your mind or into your dreams, pay attention to those.

[00:46:06] Go talk to somebody about it. Share. I don't care if you shared it 15 times. Things that pop into your head, they're doing that because they have something else they want to say to you. Yes, I know. When 2019, I started really digging into my own healing and got on Male Survivor, which is a wonderful form for male survivors of abuse, and started telling my story there. You can go on anonymously.

[00:46:34] They recommend it because it's very public, very open, and very Google-able. And so they stress anonymity, and I was just able to pour out my heart in a safe place knowing my name wasn't attached, so I could just pour out. And because it's a forum, you not only have this wonderful safe place you can pour it out and get it out, you get feedback. And so many other people who have been there, they've got thousands of men.

[00:47:01] And it's been around for like close to 20 years now, so 20 years' worth of posts from thousands upon thousands of male abuse survivors are on there sharing their stories, their struggles, their healing, what works, what doesn't. And they're there for you, and it's a wonderful environment. I have tried to replicate that within Husband Material and the CSA Fellowship group we have on there. Similarly, safe place. You can go and share your story.

[00:47:30] And what's lovely about it, you can give feedback. So yeah, and I continue to share stories when I face stuff I share on there. And it's been so healing to know it's a safe place, but then other men can hear it too and go, wow, just share space with you and also give you support, give you feedback if you're requesting that.

[00:47:57] And it's a wonderful part of my healing. And it's like, oh, well, you know, you probably have PTSD. Really? What does that look like? And so they share resources. So it's like, oh, okay. And you learn so much more having this group who can support you and then also educate you, sharing their wealth of experience and knowledge as they've gone on the healing journey.

[00:48:25] And that's part of the healing is bringing others along with you and sharing what you've learned on your healing journey. And another goal of this podcast for sure. So anything else in your healing journey? I think maybe the final thing I'd put a plug in here for is I was really isolated and alone. And the story I told myself is I didn't know how to be a friend. And so I didn't have close friends.

[00:48:49] And I didn't want to take the risk of the friends I did have in sharing from deep within me because then I was afraid I'd put that friendship in jeopardy. But learning to trust and realizing that as I share deeply from myself, most people tend to do the same. And your friendships get richer, deeper, and they're just much, much more fulfilling.

[00:49:11] So for my journey, having a group of male friends has been really, really important, not to mention just flat out fun and enjoyable. Just a quality of life in immense ways. I don't think you can really do this kind of work alone. You need, you need, kind of the story I tell myself is I was damaged in community and I need community to heal. So. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. I've heard that as well.

[00:49:40] That any kind of recovery issue, addiction stem from hurts and hurts come from trauma. And yeah, you heal in community for sure. So. So. You've found healing. Now, what are you doing these days? I mean, you're a doctor, but then you're involved in all these men's groups as well. And you've got kids and you've got grandkids. So what's going on these days with Mark? So, yeah, I stay pretty busy.

[00:50:10] I have a, I have a really nice life. I bought a little farm down here in Texas. So I have lots of things to keep me busy. Oh, sure. How big is your farm now? It's only 40 acres down here. It's a little. It's only 40 acres. It's a little farm. But a big part of my, of this kind of thing now is, is just mentoring, being in touch with

[00:50:33] other men, serving on weekends, trainings, but just developing friendships and mentoring guys. I got several men that have been really, really, really deeply traumatized. Don't have very many resources that they can really turn to. And so I've acquired some guys I work with that have had just unbelievable amounts of trauma

[00:51:00] acted onto their body and onto the genitals. And it's, I just, it feels really good to even have friendships with those kinds of people just because it's a place where everybody's comfortable talking about the ramifications of that level of trauma. That type of trauma maybe is a, is a better word. Yeah. Speaking of which you went through a lot of physical stuff with that church leader person,

[00:51:26] any kind of long-term damage down there from all of the stuff he did? And kids just fine. Yeah, that's true. That's true. There, there's other ways and any issues like with the, with your wife or anything, or just the memories. I know that it's, they say the marital bed and yeah, totally thoughts always creep in from fire stuff. Yeah. Oh gosh. Yes.

[00:51:55] I mean, I, I have many layers of issues to work with. So, I mean, and I'll, I'll keep this superficial here, but one of the issues was learning that my genitals were like a curse from God. Like they needed to be punished and they were not to be enjoyed. They were, they were the source of evil. Working through that, that was a big challenge. And then, and then God forbid to start think of, wow, not only is it okay to have male anatomy,

[00:52:24] but it actually might be okay to enjoy having male anatomy. And so, you know, there's like all these little layers of the onion that you, you go through start peeling away some of this trauma stuff. And that's a unique perspective to have and to come out of. And it sounds like, yeah, you've been able to connect with a lot of men who have had similar

[00:52:46] experiences, not just the sexual abuse, but specifically that genital torture kind of things, which yeah, that's can very much be a part of abuse stories. And the fact that you're a doctor too, doesn't hurt either because you have that medical knowledge. And so, you know how things work and how things can be damaged and not damaged and healed and so forth. So yeah, that's wonderful.

[00:53:16] You're in a very unique position to have the knowledge mixed with the experience that you have. So you're uniquely qualified to work with a whole bunch of men with a whole bunch of hurts. Yeah. It is sad. You know, I've worked with men that can't conceive that it is okay to have a penis. Yeah.

[00:53:40] And to get that out of someone's head is really, really difficult for some people. I thoroughly enjoyed Drew's podcast within Husband Material. And he talks about penises. He has a whole episode on penises and a whole other podcast on testicles. And both very, very healing, talking about the blessing of those things.

[00:54:07] And yeah, just being able to embrace them because that's how God designed us. And yeah, and how healing those are. And I'll put those in the show notes as well. So, and we do have someone from the audience. Thank you, Mark. I really appreciate your honesty and openness. Very real. I was also abused by clergy. Have PTSD and hypervigilance.

[00:54:33] I can relate so much to your emotional rollercoaster, especially as a teen. And thank you, Mike, as well. Thank you. So any response to that, Mark? I appreciate it. I would guess if he and I could hang out together, we would probably feel like kindred spirits. Oh, for sure. For sure. And any final thoughts for our listener out there? Stick with healing.

[00:55:00] I, you know, I've met a lot of people that have worked so far. And then they're like, you know, I'm just going to go into drugs or alcohol and bury this. And, you know, boy, I get that. But, but boy, stick with it. There is healing. This stuff can be healed. It just, it's a lot of work. It's painful work. But just stick on the journey. And if one thing doesn't work, then try something else. Persevere. Absolutely.

[00:55:25] And if you find therapists, sometimes, like your experience, Mark, you don't always find a good therapist right away. Sometimes you have to go through several before you can find someone who is effective and won't blame you for all the things that happened. Yeah. The horrible, horrible, horrible. Wow. Well, thank you so much, Mark, for sharing your story with us today. And thank you for being with us.

[00:55:53] And we'll see you next time on the Healing for Male Survivors podcast. If you would like to learn more about my coaching with Polar Live Consulting, where I provide one-on-one coaching and group coaching, both with a focus on healing for male survivors, reach out to me at polarlifeconsulting.com. That is polar spelled P-O-L-A-R. I would love to hear from you.

[00:56:22] I want to hear your story. If you would like your story featured on this podcast, contact me via my website. If you like this podcast, please rate and review because that's how other people can find me. And I really want to spread this message of healing and hope to others. And remember, you are not alone. Healing is possible. And the abuse was not your fault. Let me repeat that. The abuse was not your fault.

[00:56:49] See you next time on the Healing for Male Survivors podcast.