54 - Live Interview with Michael Skinner

[00:00:03] Welcome to the Healing for Male Survivors podcast. This is a podcast for male survivors of sexual abuse and assault, whether as a child or as an adult. Know that you are not alone and the abuse was not your fault. My name is Mike Chapman. I'm a certified recovery life coach and also a survivor. Let's find hope and healing together.

[00:00:28] And welcome to the Healing for Male Survivors podcast. I'm your host, Mike Chapman. And with me today is Michael Skinner. I will introduce him in a moment.

[00:00:41] And if you would like to join us live, you can learn more about doing so on my website, polarlifeconsulting.com slash live. And remind my live audience, if you would like, you can put your Q&A in the chat room and you can be as anonymous as you would like.

[00:01:04] We will only state your name if you manually type it in with your question. And let me read Michael's bio, at least part of it.

[00:01:15] Michael Skinner is an award-winning advocate, educator, writer, and critically acclaimed singer, songwriter, guitarist, addressing the issues of trauma, abuse, and mental health concerns through public speaking, writing, and his music.

[00:01:30] He has spoken at the National Press Club, a keynote speaker for a conference at the UN, the State Department, and Georgetown University on sexual exploitation and trafficking of children and adults.

[00:01:44] And he is also part of the groundbreaking Oprah Winfrey shows that address the issues of males sexually abused as children.

[00:01:52] Definitely be asking him about that.

[00:02:23] He has appeared on many TV, radio, and internet shows and has been the subject of many news articles regarding child abuse and mental health.

[00:02:32] And he's also a frequent and sought-after blogger on several websites and writer of articles for mental health publications.

[00:02:40] And there's more to his biography. I'll put that in the show notes.

[00:02:43] And we want to welcome Michael Skinner.

[00:02:46] And we're going to start off like we do most guests most weeks with four questions.

[00:02:53] Now it's time for four questions, that part of the podcast when we get to know our guest a bit better by asking a few questions.

[00:03:00] Let's go.

[00:03:01] So, Michael, what is your favorite food memory?

[00:03:05] Well, I have two, I don't want to say dishes, I was going to say dishes, foods that I liked.

[00:03:11] Ever since childhood, they're a comfort source for me.

[00:03:15] One is rice pilav.

[00:03:17] Cool.

[00:03:18] Okay.

[00:03:18] The other one is I slice up potatoes, you know, fry them up in olive oil and butter in a pan and they're browned on each side.

[00:03:27] Then scramble up some eggs, mix that together and melt on cheese.

[00:03:31] Those have always been a comfort food for me, especially after I've done a presentation or anything where I'm speaking.

[00:03:39] I won't have it tonight because it's late.

[00:03:40] But if I was doing something during the day and I come home, that might be one of those dishes might be something I would make.

[00:03:47] Wow.

[00:03:50] I have something about them from childhood that has lingered to this day.

[00:03:55] Interesting.

[00:03:55] And you're able to go get for yourself.

[00:03:57] Nice.

[00:03:58] I'm a decent cook.

[00:04:00] Yeah.

[00:04:00] Well, good.

[00:04:01] I know my comfort food is oatmeal and my wife hates oatmeal.

[00:04:05] So, yes, I get a big bowl of oatmeal and then brown sugar and maple syrup and that kind of thing.

[00:04:13] And, yeah, especially if I'm not feeling well, I'll make that for myself.

[00:04:17] And it just, yeah, it's warm and cozy and, yeah, brings back those childhood memories for sure.

[00:04:21] So what is your favorite Christmas or holiday memory?

[00:04:25] There's a lot involving, you know, my children when they were younger.

[00:04:29] But there's one specific that always sticks with me.

[00:04:35] It was one Christmas and the two youngest, I had five daughters when I was married.

[00:04:40] For some reason, as they were unwrapping their gifts and taking up the bows and the ribbons, they started sticking them all over me.

[00:04:47] And that got the older ones doing it.

[00:04:49] So pretty soon I was just covered in bows and ribbons.

[00:04:54] They were having a ball.

[00:04:54] It was just, it was nice.

[00:04:57] It was very warm.

[00:04:58] It was very tender.

[00:04:59] Right.

[00:04:59] Wonderful.

[00:05:00] Kids like messing with dad.

[00:05:02] And, yeah, that's, they make for good memories for sure.

[00:05:05] Speaking of which, what is your favorite childhood memory?

[00:05:09] This memory is huge for me for my whole life.

[00:05:12] So I'm nine years old.

[00:05:15] It's February.

[00:05:17] February, I'll be 10 in a few months.

[00:05:20] But that's when the Beatles appeared on the Ed Sullivan show.

[00:05:23] Oh, yeah.

[00:05:24] You are.

[00:05:24] I saw them and I was just transformed.

[00:05:27] I, I wanted to be like them.

[00:05:30] I wanted to learn to play the guitar and sing.

[00:05:33] I want, I was just mesmerized by, I always loved music because that was a coping skill for me and way of escaping.

[00:05:44] Right.

[00:05:44] I was listening, but now it's like, oh my gosh.

[00:05:46] Because I, up to that point, I just said, I'm going into the military.

[00:05:49] I already had my mind made up to go into the military, but I saw them and that was, Mike, that just transformed my life.

[00:05:57] Wow.

[00:05:58] I got myself to play the drums, got in the local band at the age of 12, started gigging.

[00:06:03] And here I am today, made a living as a drummer.

[00:06:06] And then I went into the music business.

[00:06:08] And then in the mid nineties, I picked up the guitar and that also has brought me great joy.

[00:06:13] But I just love listening to music.

[00:06:14] But the Beatles on the Ed Sullivan show, that was, that was a transformative moment.

[00:06:21] Yes.

[00:06:22] Wow.

[00:06:23] Yeah.

[00:06:24] I don't think I was born.

[00:06:26] When did they play?

[00:06:27] It was 64, I think.

[00:06:28] Yeah.

[00:06:29] Yeah.

[00:06:29] Yeah.

[00:06:30] I was, I was born in June of that year.

[00:06:33] So I think I might've been inside my mom still when that happened.

[00:06:37] But yeah, that was definitely a huge milestone for a lot of people.

[00:06:41] But that inspired you to go into music.

[00:06:43] That's wonderful.

[00:06:44] How wonderful.

[00:06:44] So what is your favorite scripture or any inspirational quote that has helped you on your spiritual journey?

[00:06:51] And what about it speaks to you?

[00:06:54] There's a quote from Khalil Gibran.

[00:06:57] And there's a lot of quotes that I love, but this one, I love this.

[00:07:02] Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls.

[00:07:06] The most massive characters are seared with scars.

[00:07:10] Khalil Gibran.

[00:07:12] And that just speaks to me for, I've met and presented to thousands of people across this country.

[00:07:20] And I've just met folks, you know, survivors of childhood sexual abuse, trauma, abuse in all its forms.

[00:07:28] And I'm just amazed, poverty, racism, the things that people have gone through.

[00:07:33] And they're just wonderful human beings.

[00:07:35] So that, that, that speaks to me.

[00:07:38] Right.

[00:07:39] Right.

[00:07:40] Wonderful.

[00:07:41] And great segue.

[00:07:43] I want to hear your story.

[00:07:45] And I know like a lot of people, our stories kind of bounce around the timeline as things get divulged.

[00:07:52] So wherever you want to start and back up and move forward, however you want to do it.

[00:07:57] And then I would love to hear more about your healing journey, what things have worked, what things haven't worked that you've tried.

[00:08:05] And where you are today.

[00:08:08] And then somewhere in there, we'll talk about Oprah.

[00:08:10] Okay.

[00:08:11] And if I fail to hit one of the key points that you've laid out, feel free to ask a question or if someone else has something, I don't stand on ceremony.

[00:08:22] So let's see.

[00:08:24] I live in New Hampshire.

[00:08:25] I've been here now for the past few decades.

[00:08:27] And I love it here.

[00:08:28] But I was born in Boston, Massachusetts and lived there and in Cambridge, Massachusetts till the age of six.

[00:08:35] And we moved to a small town.

[00:08:37] When I say we, meaning at that point, it was my parents and I'm the oldest.

[00:08:42] I was the oldest of five siblings.

[00:08:43] At that point, there were just three of us, me and my two brothers.

[00:08:47] We moved up to Billerica.

[00:08:48] And why this was important, because we moved out of the projects.

[00:08:52] I heard, you know, I didn't know what the projects meant when I was a kid.

[00:08:55] I just heard the name projects.

[00:08:56] But now we moved to Billerica, to a ranch, and across from us lived the fire chief.

[00:09:02] Diagonally across several hundred yards was the lieutenant of the police department.

[00:09:06] But what was cool about this place in Guessing was across the street from me was this huge field and all these woods.

[00:09:14] And the same thing up above us, because there was just two houses on our street at that point.

[00:09:18] This was a town that still had a working dairy farm that used to deliver the milk to the house.

[00:09:24] There was a lot of horse farms.

[00:09:25] There was a lot of farm country.

[00:09:26] And this was only 18 miles outside of the city.

[00:09:29] So this was huge.

[00:09:30] Why this was huge for me, this ties in with the healing.

[00:09:33] I mentioned the Beatles, but it was listening to music was one of my coping skills.

[00:09:38] The other was nature, escaping to the forest.

[00:09:41] Why escaping to the forest when I lived in this little house with two parents?

[00:09:45] We lived in a working class, middle class community.

[00:09:50] My parents were the two pedophiles.

[00:09:52] Part of my parents, friends, I termed later in life, I would term my father's group of friends as a group of thugs because they're all big men.

[00:10:01] One was thrown off the police force back then for brutality.

[00:10:06] So one can only imagine how bad he was in the 60s.

[00:10:10] Right.

[00:10:10] Because they really did that back then for sure.

[00:10:13] Yes.

[00:10:13] One of his other friends was an outlaw biker.

[00:10:18] Again, this giant of a man.

[00:10:20] And he was always good to me, but I was afraid of these people.

[00:10:23] I was just a skinny, asthmatic kid.

[00:10:25] And then his other friend was a builder contractor who lived in this affluent town called Lexington, Massachusetts, which is probably 20 miles from us.

[00:10:35] There was a group.

[00:10:36] Some of them were pedophiles.

[00:10:37] I can't say if all of them were.

[00:10:39] I don't know.

[00:10:39] But my mother was also the pedophile.

[00:10:43] But her group, you know, she quoted scripture while she was abusing me, brought me and my brother to a congregational church.

[00:10:53] There was a pastor and several others.

[00:10:55] It wasn't the whole church.

[00:10:56] You know, I don't paint the whole.

[00:10:58] There was just some of them.

[00:10:59] And I'm just a little guy being abused by these SOBs.

[00:11:05] So I heard scripture.

[00:11:06] I heard all.

[00:11:07] So that was my life growing up.

[00:11:10] So that's why those forests I could escape.

[00:11:14] That was part of my healing.

[00:11:15] I just didn't know it.

[00:11:17] But intrinsically, I knew what I needed to heal was music, listening.

[00:11:20] Then later teaching myself how to drum.

[00:11:24] Because I shared with you the story about the Beatles being a powerful moment for me.

[00:11:28] There's a downside to that, too.

[00:11:31] For whatever reason, in that moment, seeing them, I just jumped up and said, I want to be like them.

[00:11:36] I want to play like the Beatles and play the guitar and sing.

[00:11:40] I was just, you know, just the nine-year-old boy just excited.

[00:11:44] My dear mother looks at me.

[00:11:46] Who do you think you are?

[00:11:47] You know, that scorn that you're like, you'll never be like that.

[00:11:50] And with my father, I don't like calling them mother and father.

[00:11:54] But for the sake of convenience, I'll just.

[00:11:57] He always usually had the F-bomb before every adjective with him.

[00:12:00] But so I was effing lazy, effing stupid, effing I'll never do anything.

[00:12:05] Who that.

[00:12:05] And that just.

[00:12:06] I couldn't sink into that couch deep enough.

[00:12:10] Right.

[00:12:11] And I probably dissociated.

[00:12:12] That was another coping skill of mine.

[00:12:14] It was a great coping skill as a child.

[00:12:16] But it's a pain in the ass as an adult.

[00:12:19] Right.

[00:12:19] Very true.

[00:12:20] But very common for a lot of us.

[00:12:22] Yes.

[00:12:22] So I had music to listen to.

[00:12:27] I had the nature just sitting in that forest, just observing all the animals.

[00:12:31] Because it was just like, it was like a nature preserve.

[00:12:34] And soon in time, I built a three-story tree fort there.

[00:12:37] And I built little bridges across the streams and the brooks.

[00:12:40] It was just, it was my getaway place, Mike.

[00:12:43] And it was just.

[00:12:44] That's still to this day in my healing.

[00:12:47] My backyard.

[00:12:48] I have a modest lot of land that my house sits on.

[00:12:51] Behind me is this huge forest with the river and all the animals.

[00:12:55] And I just, every morning I go out there with my cup of coffee.

[00:12:58] And I'm out there for a good half hour to 40 minutes.

[00:13:00] Just absorbing all of that.

[00:13:03] So it's still my healing.

[00:13:06] So it's been music in nature for me.

[00:13:09] So unfortunately, my parents saying, you can't do that.

[00:13:14] That put a mental block on me learning to play the guitar.

[00:13:18] I thought I couldn't.

[00:13:19] But what I found was, I was always tapping to the songs that were playing.

[00:13:24] And I was drumming.

[00:13:25] And I realized, I can play the drums.

[00:13:27] So I taught myself to play the drums.

[00:13:29] But I wasn't going to tell them.

[00:13:31] And then I ended up in the local band, like I said.

[00:13:34] But again, so this was a huge healing component for me.

[00:13:39] Because all this abuse was still going on.

[00:13:41] It went up until I was a young teenager.

[00:13:43] And how it stopped, I'll be mindful of the people listening.

[00:13:48] I'm not looking to upset anyone.

[00:13:50] But this is how we heal.

[00:13:52] I had to threaten my mother.

[00:13:54] I think I was 12 or 13.

[00:13:56] You'll never touch me again.

[00:13:58] But with my father, it wasn't until like 14 or 15.

[00:14:02] And he could still kick the living crap out of me.

[00:14:06] At that point, I had learned how to fight.

[00:14:08] And I was in a lot of fights and all the rest of that.

[00:14:10] And that was our only bonding time.

[00:14:12] He wanted to hear about the fights I was in.

[00:14:14] If I was sticking up for my siblings or someone else.

[00:14:17] But I had to threaten him with a knife, what I would do to him.

[00:14:21] And I'm not going to get graphic here.

[00:14:22] That what I will do to him if he ever touches me again.

[00:14:26] So that stopped the physical.

[00:14:28] But that didn't stop the psychological terror.

[00:14:30] So it was that learning to play the drums later in life.

[00:14:35] Learning about music and healing.

[00:14:37] That drums is a great way to get out your angst, your rage.

[00:14:41] And I was in a very successful...

[00:14:43] I was making money at the age of 12.

[00:14:46] Playing at parties.

[00:14:47] Junior high dances.

[00:14:48] Then eventually high school dances.

[00:14:50] I was playing in bars when I was 15 and 16.

[00:14:52] That's how I made a living.

[00:14:54] And supported my ex-wife and three daughters at the time.

[00:14:58] Bought a home.

[00:14:59] And then I went into the business of music.

[00:15:01] But all that abuse would still creep up.

[00:15:05] So my addiction...

[00:15:07] When I was younger, I drank too much.

[00:15:08] Up until probably like around 20.

[00:15:11] And I cut that back.

[00:15:12] I didn't realize it was...

[00:15:14] I was just trying to suppress what I used to call...

[00:15:17] Just like these little snapshots of ourselves.

[00:15:20] That's what would come up into my head.

[00:15:22] All those snapshots of the abuse.

[00:15:25] And then I would...

[00:15:26] The little Polaroid snapshots.

[00:15:27] And I'd try to stuff them down.

[00:15:28] How I stuffed them down.

[00:15:29] If it wasn't drinking and fighting and promiscuity.

[00:15:32] It was working.

[00:15:33] I was an extreme workaholic.

[00:15:35] So that made me great to be in business.

[00:15:37] In the music business.

[00:15:38] I was very successful with that.

[00:15:40] But I was always on the go.

[00:15:42] I didn't realize until later in life.

[00:15:44] Learning about trauma and its impact.

[00:15:46] That was my way of flight.

[00:15:48] Every time something started to come up.

[00:15:50] I need to go on a business trip.

[00:15:51] And I really didn't.

[00:15:52] You know, I didn't.

[00:15:53] So I was always in that fight or flight mode.

[00:15:57] And sometimes freeze.

[00:15:58] So it was the abuse of my parents.

[00:16:00] It was the sexual deviancy of them.

[00:16:03] But they were also physically abusive.

[00:16:07] My father...

[00:16:07] I still have the pains and stuff.

[00:16:09] And the neck injuries.

[00:16:10] All the rest.

[00:16:11] Because he used to strangle me.

[00:16:13] And shake me.

[00:16:14] And then toss me.

[00:16:15] Like I was a beanbag.

[00:16:17] So it was a hard life.

[00:16:20] But I had a good life while in music.

[00:16:23] Part of the healing during that time period was being in the band.

[00:16:28] I got to meet my bandmates' parents.

[00:16:31] I got to see good parents.

[00:16:34] Parents who loved their children.

[00:16:35] Who asked them, how was your day?

[00:16:38] Who asked me, how was my day?

[00:16:40] You know, Michael, do you want to stay for supper?

[00:16:43] You want to have, you know, let me make you a cup of coffee.

[00:16:47] These little moments were huge for me.

[00:16:49] So the band gave me a sense of self-worth and accomplishment.

[00:16:54] But it also gave me a community.

[00:16:56] It gave me my first peers, if you will.

[00:16:59] Right.

[00:16:59] And so music was my savior.

[00:17:02] And I think all of us intrinsically know what we need to heal.

[00:17:07] Mm-hmm.

[00:17:09] Myself as a child, it was that nature.

[00:17:12] It was music.

[00:17:13] And then it was finding community.

[00:17:16] And I found it through a band.

[00:17:19] Right.

[00:17:19] And it just...

[00:17:20] One thing that I have mentioned in previous podcasts, that any kind of creative outlet,

[00:17:26] I believe it's right-brained.

[00:17:27] And the right brain is where we store trauma as well.

[00:17:31] So any kind of creative outlet allows you to access and process those traumas that are stored.

[00:17:41] And so any kind of outlet, poetry, song, music, even just writing, painting, all of that

[00:17:49] can really help in the healing process.

[00:17:52] So that's...

[00:17:52] You're right.

[00:17:53] That is exactly what you needed, was to find something creative to allow you to heal.

[00:18:01] For sure.

[00:18:02] And then there was an even bigger healing time period with music.

[00:18:07] So the band was very successful.

[00:18:09] We were playing all the time.

[00:18:10] That was how...

[00:18:11] Making a living.

[00:18:12] And if I had a day off, I would still...

[00:18:14] When I say pound nails, I had friends of mine who were in the...

[00:18:17] You know, I'd go...

[00:18:17] I could build a house or put a roof on, you know, on a Monday or Tuesday.

[00:18:21] If I wasn't gigging that night.

[00:18:23] Or sometimes I would do it, even if I was gigging.

[00:18:25] You know, when you're 18, 19, and 20, you can do all kinds of things, right?

[00:18:29] Right.

[00:18:30] You know, because back in those days, if you were playing in Massachusetts, you were playing

[00:18:34] till 2 a.m. in the morning.

[00:18:35] So...

[00:18:36] Oh, yeah.

[00:18:36] They were late nights.

[00:18:37] Playing in New York, sometimes they had you playing till 4 a.m.

[00:18:41] Anyways, so the band is successful.

[00:18:43] We're doing well.

[00:18:44] But myself and the bass player always wanted more.

[00:18:47] So long story short, we hitched up with some musicians who had once toured across this country.

[00:18:53] They were a few years older than us.

[00:18:54] And they were signed to a record company.

[00:18:56] They had one album.

[00:18:58] They didn't do 12, but they were really good musicians.

[00:19:00] And the guitar player said, why don't we go to England?

[00:19:04] And we can be the big fish in the small pond.

[00:19:07] And we were like, yes, sign me up.

[00:19:10] So myself and the bass player, my dear friend Chris, who I've now known since I was 13 years

[00:19:16] old, best friend back then, still best friends today.

[00:19:20] We went to England.

[00:19:22] We lived in Liverpool, the home of my heroes.

[00:19:25] And our idea was to just gig for three months and see where that would take us.

[00:19:29] We ended up being there two years, Mike.

[00:19:32] And we became very successful.

[00:19:34] And the band was called...

[00:19:35] Originally, we called the band American Train.

[00:19:37] Then we stopped and we just called it Train because there was no other train back then.

[00:19:42] But we called it American in the beginning to help with the promotion.

[00:19:45] But back then, we were on the same level.

[00:19:48] We were doing the same gigs as ACDC was.

[00:19:51] Now, when I say ACDC, I don't mean when they were doing stadiums.

[00:19:54] This is back when they were doing colleges, universities, rock clubs, outdoor events.

[00:19:58] So we were doing great.

[00:20:01] It was the time of our lives.

[00:20:03] Unfortunately, like so many musicians, we have horror stories of management taking off

[00:20:07] with our money and all the rest of it.

[00:20:09] Right.

[00:20:10] Screwed the band over.

[00:20:11] We had to come back after two years and it just broke the heart of the band.

[00:20:15] Myself and the bass player reformed the band with two new musicians.

[00:20:20] We still had a good band, played throughout New England and New York.

[00:20:23] Some of the stations would play our songs on the radio, but I just knew it wasn't going to be.

[00:20:29] The band in England was great.

[00:20:31] This band was good, but it wasn't.

[00:20:33] So that's when I went into the music business.

[00:20:35] But I forgot one important piece about going over to England and Great Britain.

[00:20:39] Going over there was the first time in my life.

[00:20:43] I remember sitting up on this bluff and it's this very steep, sharp, you know, if you walk off,

[00:20:49] but it's just beautiful, these rolling fields and there is the Irish Sea.

[00:20:53] It's the first time in my life I felt safe.

[00:20:56] Oh, wow.

[00:20:57] Yeah.

[00:20:58] I had this whole ocean keeping me from my pedophiles.

[00:21:02] It just unblocked so much in me in terms of healing and just bringing up stuff.

[00:21:09] And now I was writing songs.

[00:21:12] So myself and the bass player were writing a lot, a majority of the song.

[00:21:16] It just opened up something in me.

[00:21:19] And some of the songs I was writing, I was writing about dissociation.

[00:21:22] I wrote this one song called Desperate.

[00:21:26] And the band said, who, you know, the guitar, who, who the heck, what woman hurt you so badly?

[00:21:33] And my friend Chris said, Mike, I've known all your girlfriends.

[00:21:36] None of them ever treated you like that.

[00:21:38] I said, you're right, Chris.

[00:21:39] I didn't answer them.

[00:21:40] I could not tell them.

[00:21:41] I wrote this about my mother.

[00:21:43] It gave me the freedom to write songs.

[00:21:46] And it wasn't just about the dissociation.

[00:21:48] It was about all kinds of stuff.

[00:21:49] I wrote a song I still performed to this day called The Warrior and writing about the horrors of war.

[00:21:56] And, you know, it's not a good thing, you know, what people have to deal with.

[00:22:00] So it was, again, that sense of safety.

[00:22:05] Hmm.

[00:22:06] Right.

[00:22:07] During that time period was when my oldest daughter was born.

[00:22:11] And that was another transformative moment for me.

[00:22:14] I flew back.

[00:22:16] I took 10 days off from touring.

[00:22:17] And I got to hold her in my hands.

[00:22:20] And everyone always talked about love.

[00:22:21] This is the first time I really felt love.

[00:22:24] And that really changed.

[00:22:26] I was always a good guy.

[00:22:27] But I was the wild child, the rock and roll rebel.

[00:22:31] You could check all the boxes.

[00:22:33] The one thing I didn't do, I never did any illegal drugs.

[00:22:35] I know that's hard for people to believe.

[00:22:37] But I didn't do any drugs.

[00:22:38] But everything else in rock and roll, I was the heathen, if you will.

[00:22:42] But I was still a good guy.

[00:22:43] But now this helped me to turn my life around.

[00:22:46] I had to stop being responsible by someone else.

[00:22:52] So the band came back.

[00:22:54] Like I said, we gigged for a few more years.

[00:22:57] I still kept playing on the weekends, calling myself a weekend warrior drumming.

[00:23:01] But that's when I built the music business.

[00:23:03] And then in 92, all those little Polaroid snapshots just kept coming up.

[00:23:08] And they wouldn't stop.

[00:23:09] And long story short, if you looked at me back then, you would have said,

[00:23:13] wow, this guy's got it made.

[00:23:14] He's happily married.

[00:23:15] He's got five daughters.

[00:23:16] He's a homeowner.

[00:23:17] He's a successful business owner.

[00:23:19] I have employees.

[00:23:20] I had a sound and lighting company also.

[00:23:24] I had the American dream.

[00:23:27] And yet my life was starting to fall apart.

[00:23:30] And I couldn't understand why.

[00:23:32] I had been attending adult children of alcoholics meetings, trying to, what's going on?

[00:23:38] But every time someone spoke about child abuse, especially if they spoke about childhood sexual abuse,

[00:23:42] it felt like the fingernails going down the chalkboard.

[00:23:45] And that just kept, it was bringing up, stirring up feelings, emotions.

[00:23:50] And I couldn't stuff it down.

[00:23:51] I used to find relief through hiking, but it wasn't.

[00:23:54] I was in the martial arts.

[00:23:56] That wasn't bringing relief.

[00:23:57] I ended up having a nervous breakdown.

[00:24:00] And so it was as if all those Polaroid snapshots now became a movie that I had to watch.

[00:24:08] And I had to watch that whole stream of all that horrific abuse.

[00:24:13] And it just, it put me in a depression.

[00:24:15] I couldn't work.

[00:24:16] I lost my business.

[00:24:18] In a couple of years, my wife divorced me.

[00:24:21] And what was sad about this, this is why, like with Male Survivor and other support groups and what you're doing and all these other people do to reach out to support.

[00:24:30] This is what amazed me was I was having a hard time and guys that I knew from childhood wouldn't even come visit me.

[00:24:39] People I knew in music, no, everyone cut me off because now I was given the label of post-traumatic stress disorder and major depression.

[00:24:49] That made me ill.

[00:24:50] And plus he's talking about childhood sexual abuse.

[00:24:53] So it was like, you know, stay away from him.

[00:24:56] And I, that just, that broke my heart.

[00:24:59] That just, that made the healing that much harder.

[00:25:02] We can't heal in isolation.

[00:25:04] We need community.

[00:25:06] Exactly.

[00:25:07] And then part of why this is important, this long arc here, I go to the mental health center for treatment.

[00:25:15] And now all I'm hearing from these counselors, practitioners and the psychiatrists is you're mentally ill.

[00:25:22] You'll never work again.

[00:25:23] And oh, by the way, as I said, I never did any drugs.

[00:25:26] I was put on so many psychiatric medications and antipsychotics.

[00:25:31] I wasn't psychotic.

[00:25:32] It just made me a walking zombie.

[00:25:35] And that ruined several years of my life.

[00:25:37] That took time for me to come out of that and finally realize I need to get away from this.

[00:25:42] And it was when I started attending support groups for survivors of childhood sexual abuse.

[00:25:50] And they were co-ed groups.

[00:25:51] And I was starting to hear from survivors in the groups.

[00:25:54] I would drive to Boston, Massachusetts, because at that point I'm living in Manchester, New Hampshire.

[00:25:59] Right.

[00:26:00] It's only 60 miles away, but it would take me an hour and a half, sometimes two hours because of traffic.

[00:26:06] Right.

[00:26:06] But it was so worth it to go to those meetings and be validated.

[00:26:09] I was getting, I just felt like I was in a big hug being in this group.

[00:26:15] Right.

[00:26:15] Right.

[00:26:15] Listening, people sharing.

[00:26:16] And then they started telling me, Michael, you need to get away with a mental health center to heal.

[00:26:21] You need to find a therapist that understands trauma.

[00:26:27] Right.

[00:26:27] And that was, you know, the life, it was starting to click then.

[00:26:30] And the same thing, I started volunteering at this small nonprofit called the New Hampshire Incest Center.

[00:26:37] They defined incest broadly.

[00:26:39] They looked at it at anyone that had any type of power.

[00:26:43] It wasn't just in the family.

[00:26:44] So if the teacher or the priest, someone abused you, everyone was welcome into their little tent.

[00:26:50] And then hearing from them, these were people I respected.

[00:26:55] They're speaking out.

[00:26:56] They're writing articles.

[00:26:57] And they're saying the same thing to me, Michael, you need to get away from the mental health center.

[00:27:03] Because they had all been victims of the mental health centers doing the same damn thing to them.

[00:27:08] You're mentally ill.

[00:27:09] You're never accomplishing.

[00:27:10] This is your life.

[00:27:12] So I felt I had won the lottery.

[00:27:15] Contacted the trauma center in Boston, Massachusetts.

[00:27:17] At the time, Bessel van der Kolk was the medical director.

[00:27:20] Oh, wow.

[00:27:21] Yes.

[00:27:22] He wrote, body keeps the score.

[00:27:23] Yes.

[00:27:24] So I knew of him.

[00:27:25] I got to meet him back then through that New Hampshire incest center.

[00:27:29] They were a small nonprofit, but they did a lot of good things.

[00:27:33] They brought in people like Bessel van der Kolk and others to speak at these conferences.

[00:27:38] They'd get a couple hundred people attending, and that's how they made money.

[00:27:42] I felt I had won the lottery when they accepted me to go in there.

[00:27:46] And then I said, well, I can afford maybe, you know, come in once a month.

[00:27:49] Oh, no.

[00:27:51] We're going to, your abuse all happened in Massachusetts and in New Hampshire.

[00:27:54] When my mother was bringing me across state lines up to that congregational church.

[00:27:59] But again, remember I said Boston, Cambridge, and Bill Ricker.

[00:28:02] We can get this funding for, you know, victims of crime.

[00:28:07] I was able to go to the trauma center for several years.

[00:28:11] I had a psychologist, but she was just so gifted.

[00:28:15] And then I'm seeing her for a while.

[00:28:17] Then she started raising the thing about dissociation, had me take the test and all the rest of it.

[00:28:23] And when she told me, you know, I don't have the dissociative identity disorder, but I had major dissociate because I was always spacing out.

[00:28:31] And I was very angry at her.

[00:28:34] So I drove home, call her up, and I said, I don't have dissociation.

[00:28:39] I hung up.

[00:28:40] She calls an hour or two later.

[00:28:42] Michael, I hope you please come back.

[00:28:44] Please, you know, we can talk about this.

[00:28:46] So I calmed down, settled down, spoke to some friends.

[00:28:50] I said, Michael, yes, you do deal with dissociation.

[00:28:52] So she did a lot to help me heal.

[00:28:56] And then plus the things I was doing, music, nature, getting, you know, support groups, getting off the psychiatric drugs.

[00:29:04] Again, I'm not anti-medication.

[00:29:06] I'm anti-over-medication.

[00:29:08] Some of us, they have a toxicity effect.

[00:29:11] I have friends that take things for their different mental health issues, and they do fine.

[00:29:17] For me, they were toxic.

[00:29:18] Often for survivors, they get misdiagnosed.

[00:29:22] I know bipolar is a common misdiagnosed.

[00:29:26] So they're over-medicated and wrongly diagnosed on a bunch of things.

[00:29:30] So ADHD, often misdiagnosed because, yeah, if you're hypervigilant, you can't attend to school work because you're just trying to keep alive.

[00:29:39] So, yeah, you give me ADD drugs and it's speed.

[00:29:44] So it's like, okay, yeah, that is me.

[00:29:47] And, yeah, I've heard so many stories of people just getting misdiagnosed because they're not trauma-informed.

[00:29:53] They don't understand trauma and the effects of trauma on the brain, on the body, on the body chemistry,

[00:30:01] and how things can get so wacky because of the constant serotonin levels and so forth being released

[00:30:08] because you're constantly in that fear, fright, fight state, even when there's no danger.

[00:30:15] So, yeah.

[00:30:17] And a lot of them say they're trauma-informed, but they're not trauma-practicing.

[00:30:21] Right, yes.

[00:30:22] Yes, exactly.

[00:30:23] That's the thing.

[00:30:24] A question from the audience, yes, misdiagnosis is the worst for a survivor.

[00:30:29] It makes it harder to heal.

[00:30:30] Very, very true.

[00:30:32] Yes.

[00:30:33] And, yeah, yeah, like our audience member says, yes, it is very, very common.

[00:30:38] And you get the wrong medicine and it just makes it worse.

[00:30:41] So you're not able to heal because you're given the wrong medicine.

[00:30:43] That's not doing what it needs to do.

[00:30:46] But, yeah, big problem.

[00:30:48] So part of the next piece to my healing was becoming an advocate.

[00:30:53] My going to the support groups, going to that New Hampshire incessant, and I'll keep in mind,

[00:31:00] in the beginning, I could just volunteer.

[00:31:02] But after like a year or so, they asked me to be on the board.

[00:31:05] I was helping out at some of the conferences because, remember, I had a sound and lighting company.

[00:31:11] So I was really good with that.

[00:31:12] When things would go wrong, I could get in there.

[00:31:14] It just made me feel good to be able to do something again.

[00:31:18] And I always had a strong business mind.

[00:31:21] So I was able to go into their office and declutter and organize and just do a lot of things.

[00:31:26] And I just, I'd take phone calls from survivors just calling wanting to talk.

[00:31:31] And I'd just listen.

[00:31:33] And that really was the power.

[00:31:35] And I was learning.

[00:31:36] It's just listening and validating people.

[00:31:39] Right.

[00:31:39] I was just saying so many stories, hearing it at support groups.

[00:31:44] I was going to a mental health support group, hearing the same.

[00:31:47] I just got fired up because, remember, I spoke about fighting.

[00:31:50] I stuck up for people that were being picked on in school and all the rest of it.

[00:31:54] And the same thing if I was in a bar, I saw someone picking on the small guy or a woman.

[00:32:00] I'd put my nose in it and get involved.

[00:32:02] But that was my form of advocacy, helping out the smaller person.

[00:32:07] Right.

[00:32:07] Now I was learning something new that I could speak out.

[00:32:11] So I started speaking out.

[00:32:13] And I was being asked to speak at these different events.

[00:32:17] And then I taught myself to play the guitar.

[00:32:19] And now I was playing at different events.

[00:32:22] And I would donate my sound system for the use.

[00:32:26] And then people would come up to me and say, hey, we're having a conference or a workshop.

[00:32:29] We'd love to have you there.

[00:32:31] And this is our budget.

[00:32:33] We can pay you this.

[00:32:34] And I'm like, that's not what I'm doing.

[00:32:37] But I'm like, you're going to pay me to do this?

[00:32:40] Yeah.

[00:32:41] Imagine that.

[00:32:42] Yes.

[00:32:42] Imagine that.

[00:32:43] So it just one thing led to another.

[00:32:47] And I've been all across this country.

[00:32:50] So in part of my bio, it says I became a consultant and trainer with the National Center for Trauma-Informed Care, which was under the umbrella of the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration.

[00:33:03] And that's a major federal agency on mental health and trauma.

[00:33:07] And then the same thing with the National Association for State Mental Health Program directors.

[00:33:14] I was getting lots of work.

[00:33:16] I was getting lots of work on my own and also doing gigs.

[00:33:19] And I was just, but I became an advocate.

[00:33:23] I was still a musician, but I found that using music opened up more doors and I could give a keynote presentation.

[00:33:31] I could do a workshop.

[00:33:33] I could be part of a panel, whatever it is.

[00:33:36] But I always did songs.

[00:33:38] And some of my songs speak to what all of us have been through.

[00:33:42] They're my story, but it's also the collective stories that I have heard in those support groups or when people come up to me or when that elderly woman, please keep telling your story we were never able to tell.

[00:33:55] You know, those things date with you.

[00:33:58] I remember doing an event and this guy, he looked like he still could have been in the Marines, but he was a retired sheriff.

[00:34:05] I mean, he was ramrod straight and he could probably still bench press 300 pounds.

[00:34:09] And he's older than me and he firm handshake.

[00:34:12] He says, God bless you, Michael.

[00:34:14] Just keep doing what you're doing.

[00:34:15] A lot of us could not share these things.

[00:34:17] You know, you hear these things.

[00:34:18] So I just I've worked hard to be a good advocate and educator and learning all that I can about trauma.

[00:34:25] I'm still learning and trauma and abuse and mental health and its impact upon us on our mental, physical, spiritual, because the spiritual component is a huge piece to that.

[00:34:35] So it's brought me all across the country.

[00:34:37] I've met a lot of people.

[00:34:38] I'm blessed.

[00:34:39] I'm spiritual.

[00:34:41] I'm not religious.

[00:34:42] And I think you can understand why my backstory.

[00:34:44] But I have friends of all different faiths.

[00:34:49] I have friends that have no faith, but they're deeply spiritual.

[00:34:53] And I've just been grateful.

[00:34:55] I'm grateful for the roof over my head because I know when life fell apart, I had to rebuild my life.

[00:35:01] And so I have worked hard to try to voice what it's like to be a trauma survivor.

[00:35:08] And we need community.

[00:35:10] We need healing.

[00:35:11] We don't heal in isolation.

[00:35:12] And to break that mindset of shame, blame and punish the survivor.

[00:35:16] Right.

[00:35:17] Because that's really what is being done.

[00:35:20] The stigma and discrimination.

[00:35:22] And so I've been all over.

[00:35:24] I've released three CDs again.

[00:35:26] This was after being told I'd never work again.

[00:35:29] I've been part of three different books I've had chapters in that have been published.

[00:35:35] I was very proud of a piece of work that I did with SAMHSA, National Substance Abuse Mental Health Service Administration and National Association, State Mental Health Program Directors.

[00:35:46] Last year with a colleague of mine, they asked us, could we draft a workbook on healing from trauma?

[00:35:53] Because we're both trauma survivors.

[00:35:55] Right.

[00:35:55] That they could put into the correctional facility in Washington, D.C. and also in Baltimore.

[00:36:03] Wow.

[00:36:03] And so they paid us to do this, something that we love doing anyways.

[00:36:08] And so to have that published and that's in the hands of these folks in these correctional facilities and they're looking to take it further.

[00:36:18] So I was just I'm like it was it was a year ago, September, that it cleared because there's a obviously there's a whole team overlooking us and all the rest of it.

[00:36:28] Right.

[00:36:29] So that was that was great.

[00:36:32] And then for the last couple of years, I've been working on a memoir and I'm pretty much close to finishing it.

[00:36:39] I have a few more months of editing and tweaking, but now I'm going to start the process of trying to find a literary agent to try to publish it.

[00:36:47] And if that doesn't work, I'll self publish.

[00:36:50] Right.

[00:36:51] Wonderful.

[00:36:51] Wonderful.

[00:36:52] So I know a big part of the podcast here is power of story.

[00:36:57] And obviously, you sharing your stories had a huge impact.

[00:37:01] When was the first time you actually told someone about what happened?

[00:37:05] It was my ex-wife, because in the beginning, she was supportive.

[00:37:10] We used to go out.

[00:37:11] We had coffee dates either on a Tuesday or Wednesday night.

[00:37:14] We'd go down this mall in the next town over, Bedford Mall.

[00:37:18] We'd go to this bookstore and that's they had all the different coffees and stuff.

[00:37:22] And I saw this book, Toxic Parents.

[00:37:25] Oh, wow.

[00:37:27] And I picked it up.

[00:37:28] I opened it up and I'm reading this.

[00:37:31] I goes, oh, my gosh, this is my father.

[00:37:33] And I showed my ex.

[00:37:35] Look at this.

[00:37:36] And then I just opened up the next and, oh, my gosh, they're talking about my mother.

[00:37:41] So I bought that book.

[00:37:43] How old were you at that time with your wife?

[00:37:46] How old were you when you were talking to your wife about all this?

[00:37:49] 39.

[00:37:49] I was 39.

[00:37:50] Well, and when did the abuse stop?

[00:37:54] So with my mother would have been like 12 or 13, with my father was around 14 or 15.

[00:38:00] Wow.

[00:38:00] So, yeah, it was a lot of time.

[00:38:03] But then it was compounded because there were other abuses.

[00:38:08] Right.

[00:38:09] Right.

[00:38:09] And this was an epiphany for me.

[00:38:13] You know, a lot of times we just are not aware of our own abuse and its impact upon us.

[00:38:18] Exactly.

[00:38:18] When you read my bio that I spoke at Georgetown University for a conference being put on by the United Nations, the State Department and Georgetown University on trafficking.

[00:38:29] So when they asked me to present, I go, this is a great concept.

[00:38:33] But why are you asking me to present?

[00:38:36] Michael, you were trafficked as a child.

[00:38:38] I was numb because the dissociation came in.

[00:38:43] I was like, I felt like I'd been sucker punched.

[00:38:45] And so it took other people telling me, Michael, you were trafficked as a child.

[00:38:52] That I hadn't.

[00:38:53] I've worked with people.

[00:38:55] I have friends who have been trafficked.

[00:38:57] And I but I never looked at myself as thinking that.

[00:39:01] Right.

[00:39:02] Right.

[00:39:02] Exactly.

[00:39:03] That was another learning curve in here.

[00:39:06] Right.

[00:39:07] So back to your ex-wife.

[00:39:09] So how did that go?

[00:39:10] So you showed her the book about toxic parents.

[00:39:13] This is my dad.

[00:39:14] This is my mom.

[00:39:14] And then what happened after that?

[00:39:16] Things started unraveling.

[00:39:18] And I just then I had never told anyone about the abuse because I was afraid.

[00:39:23] Right.

[00:39:23] And then I just started dropping little hints about different things to see what her reaction was.

[00:39:29] And she was very supportive.

[00:39:31] Right.

[00:39:31] Just little bits and pieces.

[00:39:33] So she brought me to this counselor's office.

[00:39:36] And we're in there.

[00:39:37] And there's this female counselor.

[00:39:38] And my ex is saying, you know, he his parents were brutal, physically abusive, emotionally abusive.

[00:39:44] And Michael's starting it.

[00:39:46] And then I just said, look, I'll answer any question.

[00:39:49] But I don't I'm not going to talk about my parents.

[00:39:52] So I was cutting it off.

[00:39:53] So eventually within between that October, finding that book in December, I shared a little bit with her.

[00:40:02] And so she she was very strong in her faith.

[00:40:05] You know, right.

[00:40:07] Congregational.

[00:40:07] So through her pastor connected me with a pastoral counselor.

[00:40:13] So I don't have to meet the guy, big guy, a gentle Ben kind of guy.

[00:40:17] And I shared about, OK, the physical abuse stuff.

[00:40:19] Can I I said, can I share something with you?

[00:40:22] I feel like I'm a pervert if I say that.

[00:40:24] And he goes, what I guess I have all these little snapshots, you know, these Polaroids of my parents doing things to me and being me.

[00:40:32] I'm me being made to do things.

[00:40:34] And he just listened and listened.

[00:40:36] And he just he just gave me the space to talk.

[00:40:40] I goes, am I crazy?

[00:40:42] Am I making this up?

[00:40:42] Am I a pervert?

[00:40:43] He says, no, Michael, you're not.

[00:40:45] You're not.

[00:40:46] You were abused, you know.

[00:40:48] And he was a great guy.

[00:40:50] Right.

[00:40:51] So and I share with my ex what was being said.

[00:40:55] So she was very supportive.

[00:40:58] You know, we'll get through this.

[00:41:00] Right.

[00:41:01] It's interesting how you mentioned the process that you kind of test the waters.

[00:41:05] And it's very common for survivors, especially male survivors.

[00:41:09] You test the waters.

[00:41:11] So we're in disclosure.

[00:41:12] You'll disclose a little tiny tidbit.

[00:41:14] See how that's taken.

[00:41:15] Even though it's this huge iceberg of information and you're just cutting off a little tiny ice cube.

[00:41:20] It's like, OK, how's that?

[00:41:23] Oh, you hate that?

[00:41:24] Oh, OK.

[00:41:24] Well, I'm not telling you anymore.

[00:41:25] Or, oh, you took that pretty well.

[00:41:27] OK, well, I might give you a bigger chunk next time.

[00:41:30] And then you just do bit by bit.

[00:41:32] Then because we're all about safety and subconscious, we need to keep ourselves safe.

[00:41:37] Disclosing is a huge risk and very vulnerable.

[00:41:40] So, yeah, you test the waters and see, OK, what are you going to take?

[00:41:43] OK, all right.

[00:41:44] And then when you feel safe, then you share.

[00:41:48] But like in your case, you're still even discovering what your abuse was at that time and that you weren't crazy.

[00:41:54] And this stuff did happen and it did have a profound effect on you.

[00:41:58] I always I used to question my crazy because, you know, the floating away, you know, going up into the corner of the room, right.

[00:42:06] Right.

[00:42:07] I was down the street in the forest or it would get so bad.

[00:42:11] I'm looking at my hands and I'm who's who is this?

[00:42:15] And I'm looking in the mirror trying to figure out what I'm looking at, who I'm looking at.

[00:42:19] Right.

[00:42:20] I'm right.

[00:42:23] I didn't want to say any of this to anybody because I was afraid people would think I was crazy.

[00:42:28] And it took me a long time to finally start addressing the dissociation.

[00:42:34] And then finally, even in speaking engagements, whether it was a keynote or at a workshop, I used to do a trauma informed peer support training.

[00:42:42] So there's been different things I used to have to.

[00:42:45] You know, I have it out now as a safety thing.

[00:42:47] But I realized, you know, the chapstick was a coping thing because then I could rub it against my hand to try to pull me up.

[00:42:56] It's my thighs.

[00:42:57] You know, so and I remember a female friend of mine, a group of us were driving down to a conference that I was going to perform at.

[00:43:05] But I had room in the car.

[00:43:07] I was down in New Jersey.

[00:43:08] And I these are, you know, fellow survivor friends of mine in a support group.

[00:43:12] I got room in my car if you want to go.

[00:43:14] So we're going down there.

[00:43:15] And as we're getting closer to where the gig is going to be, because it's a long drive from Manchester, New Hampshire to New Jersey.

[00:43:23] And my friend, she says to me, Michael, you must have the softest lips in the world.

[00:43:28] I said, why?

[00:43:29] She goes, well, you keep using the chapstick.

[00:43:32] And she mentioned she asked something.

[00:43:35] Is that a coping?

[00:43:36] And then it dawned on me.

[00:43:37] I said, oh, my gosh.

[00:43:38] And it's the same thing with the water that grounds me, the cold water.

[00:43:44] So it's not that I'm thirsty.

[00:43:46] I've got a lot of healing in me, but it still brings up stuff.

[00:43:52] So I have sips of water.

[00:43:54] Or I touched a cold can, which has ice cubes in it, too.

[00:43:58] Right.

[00:43:59] I have a sip now.

[00:44:00] Right.

[00:44:00] Yes.

[00:44:01] And I'm holding up my own cup, too, because, yeah, I do that, too.

[00:44:05] I've got several different coping mechanisms, including drinking.

[00:44:10] And it took me a long time to realize, yeah, it keeps me present.

[00:44:14] It keeps me present.

[00:44:16] Yeah.

[00:44:17] So I'm better at it now, but it's still a process.

[00:44:23] I was dating a female friend, someone I knew from junior high and high school.

[00:44:28] We reconnected later in life.

[00:44:30] And I'd always had a crush on her and vice versa in junior high and high school.

[00:44:34] But I had a girlfriend.

[00:44:35] She had a boyfriend.

[00:44:36] So we were dating for a while.

[00:44:37] I remember we're at the ocean.

[00:44:39] And she says to me, Michael, unclench your fish.

[00:44:41] You're not going to get in a fight.

[00:44:43] And I wasn't even realizing I'm clenching my fish.

[00:44:46] My daughter said it to me the other day.

[00:44:48] We were out looking at foliage.

[00:44:50] We were out looking in the mountains and said, Dad, you can unclench your fish now.

[00:44:54] I'm naughty.

[00:44:55] I'm gearing up to protect myself.

[00:44:58] And so now I just, it's like, okay.

[00:45:00] But just like so many of us survivors, it's where I'm going to sit in a room.

[00:45:04] If I go to a restaurant or any type of event, I have to have, I can't, I don't want anyone behind me.

[00:45:10] I need to see what's coming at me.

[00:45:13] I've learned to make peace with it.

[00:45:14] I don't, because even when I go out in my backyard, then I realize, oh, I'm clenching my fists and I just let it go.

[00:45:20] I don't beat up on myself over it.

[00:45:22] These are things that were hardwired into our systems all these years.

[00:45:26] Because I don't need to beat on myself for something that, it's not hurting me and it's not harming anybody else.

[00:45:32] It's just, it's a coping skill.

[00:45:34] And when I, when I recognize it, I try to stop doing it, but I'm not going to lose sleep over if I keep doing it when I'm 90 years old.

[00:45:42] Right, right.

[00:45:43] Exactly.

[00:45:44] Yeah.

[00:45:44] I've got similar coping skills as well.

[00:45:47] Yeah.

[00:45:48] That would be another good podcast.

[00:45:49] I did run on weird symptoms that they recently posted.

[00:45:54] Yeah, this is slightly different.

[00:45:57] It's kind of overlap.

[00:45:58] But yeah, the things we do to keep ourselves present and, or just coping like cleanse fist.

[00:46:06] I used to mumble words with my mouth, just like slightly under my breath, very subconscious, not even realizing that I'm doing it.

[00:46:14] And it would just be like a repetitive thing.

[00:46:16] And it would just be on my lips.

[00:46:17] And then I'll use sign language now.

[00:46:20] That's part of my career.

[00:46:21] And then it'd actually be fingerspilling the word on my hand, not even realize I'm doing it.

[00:46:26] And my kids, dad, you're doing it again.

[00:46:28] But, oh crap.

[00:46:29] Okay.

[00:46:29] Yeah.

[00:46:30] Just that subconscious thing that, yeah, my brain is processing stuff and it's leaking out.

[00:46:38] And it's one of those different coping skills, if you will.

[00:46:43] I know you're taking a drink and part of me is saying, I need to take a drink too.

[00:46:46] A great relief for me is when I was able to purchase this home.

[00:46:51] I've been here now 15 years.

[00:46:53] Oh.

[00:46:53] I have a, it's a sunroom and it looks out to the back.

[00:47:00] Yeah.

[00:47:00] It's because it's all windows and it's great.

[00:47:01] But I went through divorce.

[00:47:03] I went from living in a house to an apartment for 10 years.

[00:47:07] Right.

[00:47:07] So my drum sets went into storage.

[00:47:09] Now I could set up my drum sets, my congas and all the rest of it.

[00:47:12] So I have a music room again.

[00:47:14] So I just have a ball, just playing the congas.

[00:47:18] I bet.

[00:47:19] All my drums.

[00:47:20] And again, it only lasts for five or 10 minutes because I get bored if I'm not performing with

[00:47:26] other musicians.

[00:47:27] Right.

[00:47:27] I love drumming.

[00:47:29] Don't get me wrong.

[00:47:30] But I love that synergy when you're working with other musicians.

[00:47:34] Right.

[00:47:35] But I just do it and it gets out the angst.

[00:47:39] And it's, it's interesting how the different patterns that I'm doing, because sometimes

[00:47:44] I do off times a really dissonant type of things.

[00:47:48] Like the same thing on guitar.

[00:47:49] If I'm in a really bad place, I'm going to the minor chords and the dissonant chords,

[00:47:55] but it's, it's channeling the angst, whatever's going on in me.

[00:47:59] And sometimes I'm not sure what it just, but it helps me to get it out.

[00:48:03] And I write songs out of this.

[00:48:05] It doesn't mean I'm going to publish them, but I can voice anger, sadness, grief, loss,

[00:48:11] whatever.

[00:48:11] Love.

[00:48:12] You know, I write songs, you know.

[00:48:14] So again, the music still helps me to heal to this day.

[00:48:20] Right.

[00:48:21] Right.

[00:48:22] It lets you process your emotions in a safe way.

[00:48:27] And that's really profound.

[00:48:30] And I'm sure it would be very healing.

[00:48:33] Finding safe, healthy ways to release those emotions and get them out.

[00:48:37] And creative endeavors like music, that's definitely one very effective method to express

[00:48:46] yourself and get those emotions, get those feelings out.

[00:48:48] And sounds like, yeah, you're even writing about the trauma.

[00:48:53] And it sounds like in your songs as well.

[00:48:56] And that can be so healing also.

[00:48:59] That's wonderful.

[00:49:00] So we're now an adult.

[00:49:02] So what got you to the Oprah show?

[00:49:06] You obviously started just sharing your story different places.

[00:49:09] So let me know what led up to that and what that experience was like.

[00:49:15] And this was what, late 90s, mid 90s?

[00:49:19] No, it would have been in the fall of late summer 2010, I believe.

[00:49:26] Okay.

[00:49:26] Yes.

[00:49:27] And maybe 2000, maybe 2009.

[00:49:32] But in that time period, because the staff reached out to me, because you know how your

[00:49:39] name becomes bounced around.

[00:49:42] So one of the producers called me and said, look, we're looking, we're going to be doing

[00:49:47] this show.

[00:49:48] And I said, I'd love to participate and not expecting that I was going to get it beyond

[00:49:56] this, because obviously there's tens of thousands, millions of us in this country.

[00:50:00] I just, I was honored that they called me.

[00:50:05] And next thing I know, I was part of that show.

[00:50:09] And it was quite the profound experience.

[00:50:13] In many ways, what I found nice about her and Tyler Perry, obviously the huge size, right?

[00:50:22] Right.

[00:50:22] It wasn't that.

[00:50:23] I've never previously had gone on her show and talked about his sexual abuse experiences.

[00:50:29] Okay.

[00:50:29] So I'm not caught up in, oh, movie stars.

[00:50:33] And I, you know, I respect people for what they've accomplished.

[00:50:36] But it was when the taping would stop.

[00:50:40] And if someone was having a hard time or they yelled out about something and they're really

[00:50:46] having a hard time.

[00:50:47] She went out to the audience along with Tyler Perry.

[00:50:50] Didn't love them.

[00:50:50] And it was just, you know, that wasn't choreographed.

[00:50:53] That was from the high.

[00:50:55] Right.

[00:50:55] But also before the cameras started rolling, you know, she, she apologized to us.

[00:51:00] She goes, I'm so sorry.

[00:51:01] How did I miss this?

[00:51:02] You know?

[00:51:03] So she, it was very heartfelt that I'm sorry that I missed it.

[00:51:07] I didn't realize what was going on for males.

[00:51:11] Because, you know, she's been such a staunch advocate raising awareness about childhood sexual

[00:51:16] abuse and was missing the whole thing with the males.

[00:51:19] There was also some comical times.

[00:51:20] So there's this deep sadness and uplifting.

[00:51:24] People are sharing and all the rest of it.

[00:51:26] And someone yells out, Oprah, are we getting a car?

[00:51:29] She's smiling.

[00:51:30] No.

[00:51:31] And Tyler is shaking their head.

[00:51:32] And someone yells out, are we going on a vacation?

[00:51:36] So there was still humor in this, you know, very poignant moment.

[00:51:41] So, but, and I met a lot of guys there who I'm still in contact with.

[00:51:47] I met gentlemen that I was aware of and knew through a different advocacy and things, but

[00:51:55] now I got to meet them in person.

[00:51:56] So it was just cool.

[00:51:58] I, it was just, it was a great, it was a great event.

[00:52:02] I felt honored to be part of it.

[00:52:04] You know?

[00:52:05] Right.

[00:52:06] Fascinating.

[00:52:08] So how, how did they find you specifically because you are a male survivor and they put out

[00:52:14] information or how did you get selected?

[00:52:17] To attend.

[00:52:19] And I know they flew everyone out from wherever they were and they gave, um,

[00:52:25] blown up photos of you as a child when the abuse started.

[00:52:30] So I'm going to hold that out.

[00:52:31] Uh-huh.

[00:52:32] One of the original, well, that was, they said, we, um, we need a childhood photo of you.

[00:52:38] And I thought, I didn't realize what they were going to do with it.

[00:52:41] I just, uh, so we were all surprised when we were given those photos.

[00:52:47] None of us knew that was what it was going to be.

[00:52:50] So we were all in the dark on that.

[00:52:53] It was just, we just thought they just wanted a picture of us, you know?

[00:52:57] Right.

[00:52:57] Right.

[00:52:58] So I'd been affiliated with RAINN on their Speakers Bureau and several other things.

[00:53:03] So I think that's how they found me.

[00:53:06] Okay.

[00:53:07] Because, um, I don't think Oprah would be taking my phone calls.

[00:53:14] Right.

[00:53:14] In the audience, you were not, you were not brought up on stage though.

[00:53:18] Correct?

[00:53:18] You were just in the audience.

[00:53:20] I was in the audience.

[00:53:21] Well, there's a, when they asked me about what I would say, that sort of screened me

[00:53:26] from being on the show and being interviewed.

[00:53:29] What did you, what did they ask and what did you say?

[00:53:31] And I don't want this to diminish the event, but my friends have said, I need to speak this.

[00:53:38] And when the producer was questioning me, what would you say on your abuse?

[00:53:42] And I would just say, well, I would talk about, I was abused by both of my parents.

[00:53:47] Cause that has been part of my platform.

[00:53:49] To raise awareness.

[00:53:50] Not only we male survivors out there, but there's a lot of female perpetrators to talk

[00:53:57] about.

[00:53:59] And the person interviewing me said, well, this show, we, we're just going to be talking

[00:54:04] about males, abusing males.

[00:54:07] I said, well, I, I just can't not say, you know, it was only my father.

[00:54:13] I go, so there were multiple abusers and some of them were female.

[00:54:17] And one of them was my mother and something about, well, the other producer and I will,

[00:54:21] we'll get back to you.

[00:54:22] But I knew right then that that just went my shot of being interviewed and that it made me

[00:54:29] angry and sad.

[00:54:30] But I was grateful that Howard Fratkin and Tyler Perry brought up about female abusers.

[00:54:37] Tyler Perry started talking about one of his abusers was a female in the neighborhood.

[00:54:42] We still have a ways to go, Mike, in raising awareness.

[00:54:45] And there's still blocks of, we don't want to hear this.

[00:54:49] And I, you know, this is, this is a downer.

[00:54:52] This has been a hard thing for me through the years and other survivors, because that

[00:54:56] was a key thing.

[00:54:57] I remember when I, one of the first times reaching out to a sexual assault, domestic violence

[00:55:03] center and being told we don't help perpetrators because it was a male, I'm a male voice.

[00:55:09] And I says, I'm not a perpetrator.

[00:55:11] I'm a survivor.

[00:55:12] Well, we can't help you.

[00:55:14] And I didn't know if it was just me.

[00:55:16] This was in the very beginning.

[00:55:18] And then I started meeting people around the country who are voicing the same thing.

[00:55:23] Yeah.

[00:55:24] He raised his hand.

[00:55:25] He just yelled out.

[00:55:26] This was because there was a lot being talked about when we weren't taping, when they'd

[00:55:30] started taping.

[00:55:31] And he's, and he's, he's literally crying out.

[00:55:34] He's emotionally Oprah.

[00:55:35] I'm a gay man.

[00:55:36] I've never touched a female in my life.

[00:55:38] I haven't.

[00:55:38] And yet they're calling me a perpetrator.

[00:55:41] So that brought up that discussion in there about how males were just viewed as the perpetrators

[00:55:50] only, you know, and when we're not.

[00:55:52] And then again, that females sexually abused.

[00:55:56] One of the interesting, disturbing things that I learned when I started going to the New

[00:56:03] Hampshire incest center was meeting fellow survivors, but they had lawsuits pending or some had been successful in their suit against their therapist.

[00:56:14] These were females and they'd been sexually abused by female therapists.

[00:56:19] Wow.

[00:56:20] Yeah.

[00:56:21] So that's under the radar.

[00:56:22] No one, you know, and then I, I met a few in Boston, in Cambridge that had gone through the

[00:56:29] same thing.

[00:56:30] So yeah, this whole mindset that we don't want to look at, you know, the females are abusing.

[00:56:34] Abusing.

[00:56:35] That just, I just want it.

[00:56:37] I want the trauma and abuse to end, but we have to get to the root.

[00:56:40] We have to end the trauma in people's lives.

[00:56:44] I don't forgive my parents, but I have understanding.

[00:56:48] It's some empathy for who they were as children.

[00:56:51] What they went through.

[00:56:52] They just didn't break the cycle and whatever, what was done to them happened.

[00:56:59] So we need to break these cycles of trauma.

[00:57:02] We can't punish our way out of ending child abuse.

[00:57:06] We have to go to the root cause of let's end the trauma of child abuse.

[00:57:11] Right.

[00:57:12] For sure.

[00:57:14] Yeah.

[00:57:14] Yeah.

[00:57:15] So much to unpack with that.

[00:57:17] I know personally, I was dealing with being a survivor and that episode came on and I think

[00:57:26] we were taping open at the time and I heard about it and eventually was able to watch the

[00:57:31] first episode.

[00:57:33] And yeah, I just checked.

[00:57:34] I had written about it.

[00:57:35] It was, yeah, November, 2010 was when it premiered.

[00:57:39] Seeing that audience full of men and they were all survivors and being open about it.

[00:57:47] That just touched such a deep heart of my soul watching that.

[00:57:53] So thank you, Michael, and all those other men who were brave enough to attend that.

[00:58:00] They gave a voice and like I said, power of story.

[00:58:04] And that was powerful.

[00:58:07] All those men, even just being present, saying, yes, me too.

[00:58:13] It happened to me too.

[00:58:14] And we're in a powerful moment.

[00:58:17] I mean, Dan Perry coming out, certainly.

[00:58:20] And then the Me Too movement in the late 20-teens where so many men started coming forward

[00:58:28] more and more, sharing their stories of abuse openly, including celebrities.

[00:58:33] It's such a profound impact.

[00:58:36] And that's what led me to look into my own healing even deeper at that point.

[00:58:42] So for sure.

[00:58:43] And that's power of story that you were able to do that for sure.

[00:58:47] I'm sad that, you know, there's millions of us.

[00:58:51] That was one of the startling statistics in the early 90s learning, you know, that one

[00:58:57] in four females and one in six males are sexually assaulted before the age of 18.

[00:59:01] That was like, oh my gosh, you know, so I'd be in a room.

[00:59:04] I'm counting off one, two, three, four, one, two, three, you know, one, two, three, four,

[00:59:08] five, six.

[00:59:09] And then one in five people will deal with a mental health concern in their life.

[00:59:13] But two thirds will not seek help with the stigma and discrimination.

[00:59:17] Right.

[00:59:18] That's a lot of people that are hurting.

[00:59:21] Right.

[00:59:22] But what's great about this, Mike, just like you having this show, was when I started,

[00:59:28] granted, there were other people before me and there weren't that many male survivors speaking out.

[00:59:34] So originally my website was getting all kinds of traction because I was speaking out about it.

[00:59:40] Now there's hundreds of males out there with podcasts and books and all the rest of it.

[00:59:47] It's so, yeah, it's just there's more and more of us.

[00:59:52] But I just hope someday there's no more of it.

[00:59:54] But I know that's going to take generations to end.

[00:59:57] Right.

[00:59:58] For sure.

[00:59:59] So you talked about music being a huge part of your healing and sharing your story and helping others.

[01:00:06] What other things have you done to help your healing process?

[01:00:11] What have you tried?

[01:00:12] What have you tried and hasn't worked?

[01:00:15] So have you done therapy?

[01:00:17] Have you done new age kind of stuff?

[01:00:19] There's a lot out there and some of it is effective and some of it's not.

[01:00:23] I found for myself being able to share and talk.

[01:00:26] I found EMDR helpful.

[01:00:30] Right.

[01:00:31] So you've got through sessions with a therapist on eye movement, desensitization.

[01:00:37] Realization.

[01:00:38] Realization.

[01:00:38] Yes.

[01:00:39] Because there were a few memories that would it was like I was beaten up all over again that would just knock the wind out of my sails.

[01:00:48] Right.

[01:00:49] The EMDR helped tone it down.

[01:00:53] So even now as I'm sharing this, those memories come into my head, but I can still keep talking.

[01:01:00] I don't have to say I'm sorry.

[01:01:01] I have to go.

[01:01:02] It took the power away from it.

[01:01:06] I don't know the magic of how it works, but it worked.

[01:01:09] Well, I do know.

[01:01:10] But I forget the details.

[01:01:12] I've read up on it and I've got the book on it.

[01:01:14] Another thing that has helped me is emotional freedom technique, the tapping.

[01:01:18] Yes.

[01:01:19] I do that a lot.

[01:01:20] Breathing.

[01:01:21] I still practice the martial arts.

[01:01:23] I do a lot of walking and hiking.

[01:01:26] I don't.

[01:01:27] I used to go out with a backpack, you know, for five to seven days and then camp and do the same thing.

[01:01:33] Wow.

[01:01:33] Be scaling mountains.

[01:01:35] Now I just go hike little mountains, but I go through the woods all the time and I just walk a lot.

[01:01:41] I experienced some really helpful somatic healing with a trauma trained therapist and she was really good.

[01:01:51] She was great.

[01:01:51] And I was driving 70 minutes to get to her office and she was a wonderful person.

[01:01:58] She was trained at the trauma center and all the rest of it, but she was missing half the appointments.

[01:02:02] Oh, goodness.

[01:02:03] And I found this with a couple other trauma counselors who, when I was in there, we did great stuff.

[01:02:10] But then I don't know what, when obviously there was things in their own life that they, they're missing appointments.

[01:02:17] This is not good.

[01:02:18] Right.

[01:02:18] And they were nice people.

[01:02:21] It wasn't that they were jerks, that something tuned out.

[01:02:25] So I'd have to stop seeing them.

[01:02:26] So there was a period of time somatic.

[01:02:28] After a while, it was several years ago, right up to COVID, I've heard a lot in support groups, friends of mine, survivors, they would talk about the internal family systems.

[01:02:41] Right.

[01:02:41] Yes.

[01:02:42] And so I was intrigued, but I was okay with where I was going and different things.

[01:02:47] And finally, I felt I'm done with the talk.

[01:02:52] I need to go to another level.

[01:02:53] So I reached out to a friend of mine who is a counselor.

[01:02:57] They're in support groups together.

[01:02:59] But I said, who would you recommend for this?

[01:03:03] So I started seeing this person and she was a lovely therapist.

[01:03:09] Again, I'm driving 40, 45 minutes to her office.

[01:03:12] Right.

[01:03:13] And then COVID hit.

[01:03:14] So we started doing that and it was very interesting, but there was still a part of me that was holding back because my trust issue is, I have no trust.

[01:03:26] And so this was taking a long time, but we were starting to make some inroads, Mike, with that internal family systems.

[01:03:33] Then COVID hit.

[01:03:35] Then in a few months, we started the Zoom meetings, but it was never same.

[01:03:40] So I, and she started missing meetings.

[01:03:43] So it was like, she was a wonderful counselor, wonderful person.

[01:03:47] And all I could think of COVID upended a lot of people's lives.

[01:03:52] So it wasn't being judgmental, but I just, I pulled away.

[01:03:57] I read a lot.

[01:03:58] I've got an extensive library on trauma healing, depression healing.

[01:04:03] I, and the books that I don't own, I borrow from the library or from friends.

[01:04:08] So I keep learning.

[01:04:10] I still have a stack of new books on healing from trauma.

[01:04:14] I read survivor stories.

[01:04:16] So things like that give me hope.

[01:04:18] I look for hope, healing and help.

[01:04:21] I do.

[01:04:21] I send out the month, you know, the surviving spirit newsletter.

[01:04:25] And I'm always looking for resources for that.

[01:04:27] And I love sharing stories about fellow survivors, whatever trauma they've been through.

[01:04:33] So I've always walked in the, in this lane of, I'm not just trying to say appeal to, that's not the right word appeal to, but to address childhood sexual abuse.

[01:04:45] It's all childhood trauma.

[01:04:47] I look at the whole tent of it, but obviously there's a lot of us who've been impacted by childhood sexual abuse, childhood abuse.

[01:04:54] Right.

[01:04:55] So I look at, and I share resources that helps me.

[01:04:59] That gives me sense, purpose, and meaning.

[01:05:01] I'm excited about the book.

[01:05:04] I'm excited, but it's also, it's been very hard writing it.

[01:05:08] It's up at times.

[01:05:10] I, you know, I, sometimes I take several day breaks from it because it's just too much, but I would, I'm looking forward to when I, whether published through someone or self-published, just taking that on the road.

[01:05:23] And I just, I'm going to, I want to promote it like I used to as a musician.

[01:05:26] I'll just go from place to place and pull up in my car and have books in the trunk, play a few songs, read from the book.

[01:05:33] And if people buy it or listen, great.

[01:05:35] If they don't, that's okay too.

[01:05:38] Right.

[01:05:38] Excellent.

[01:05:40] Excellent.

[01:05:41] Yeah.

[01:05:41] There's links on the Oprah episode and so forth.

[01:05:44] Yeah.

[01:05:45] I know her.

[01:05:46] The first episode is on Oprah.com from 11.5, but then the follow-up episode where she talks with wives, I believe, which was on November 12th.

[01:06:02] It's not on the site.

[01:06:03] They've got a few little snippets here and there, but not the full episode.

[01:06:06] It's like Oprah released the second episode.

[01:06:10] We want to be able to hear it and see the whole thing.

[01:06:13] They've got little snippets and descriptions of what happened on that second episode, but it's not available online, unfortunately.

[01:06:21] But that first episode is the 200 for sure.

[01:06:24] And I will add that to the show notes.

[01:06:26] Yes.

[01:06:26] And thank you, audience member, for adding that.

[01:06:29] Thank you, man.

[01:06:30] So, any final thought for our listener out there?

[01:06:36] Healing from trauma is hard work.

[01:06:39] Oh, definitely.

[01:06:40] Worth it because one of the things I've learned that trauma disconnects us from others, but it also disconnects us from ourselves.

[01:06:49] Oh, yes.

[01:06:50] Our passions, our creativity, our loves, our desires, our interests, our hopes, our dreams, whatever that may be.

[01:06:56] One doesn't have to be a professional musician or artist, dancer.

[01:07:01] It just, whatever it is that floats your boat, I say embrace that because that's a big part of healing.

[01:07:09] So, even if I hadn't made a living as a musician, I still found power in listening to music.

[01:07:16] I still do.

[01:07:18] Right.

[01:07:19] If you want to learn an instrument, you want to dance, you're cooking.

[01:07:22] We're all creative, you know.

[01:07:24] Right.

[01:07:26] So, if there's something that you would love to do, I hope you do it because, Don, you deserve it.

[01:07:33] So, it's hard, but you're worth it.

[01:07:37] Excellent.

[01:07:38] Excellent.

[01:07:38] All your dreams.

[01:07:39] That's right.

[01:07:40] Yes.

[01:07:40] And we're definitely worth it.

[01:07:42] And so much of the healing is coming to that realization that we are not worthless pieces of tissue paper disposable, but we are worth being cared for.

[01:07:54] We are worth being loved.

[01:07:56] And we're worth caring for ourselves and loving ourselves enough to say, yeah, I need to take some time for me and do something creative.

[01:08:06] And I love that.

[01:08:07] I was able to attend an art therapy workshop a few weeks ago, and I came up with two different pieces of artwork that I'm so thrilled with and so proud of and trauma-related.

[01:08:20] And it was so helpful to just put out these pieces, and they're just profound, too.

[01:08:26] Yeah, anything that you can do to help you heal creative endeavors, to help unlock some of those traumas hidden deep within the brain is so worth it.

[01:08:39] So, thank you, Michael, for inspiring creativity in all of us.

[01:08:44] And thank you for being here this week.

[01:08:45] You're welcome and honored to be here.

[01:08:48] Thank you.

[01:08:48] Yes.

[01:08:49] Honor.

[01:08:58] If you would like to learn more about my coaching with Polar Live Consulting, where I provide one-on-one coaching and group coaching, both with a focus on healing for male survivors, reach out to me at polarliveconsulting.com.

[01:09:12] That is polar spelled P-O-L-A-R.

[01:09:15] I would love to hear from you.

[01:09:17] I want to hear your story.

[01:09:19] If you would like your story featured on this podcast, contact me via my website.

[01:09:24] If you like this podcast, please rate and review because that's how other people can find me, and I really want to spread this message of healing and hope to others.

[01:09:33] And remember, you are not alone.

[01:09:36] Healing is possible, and the abuse was not your fault.

[01:09:40] Let me repeat that.

[01:09:42] The abuse was not your fault.

[01:09:45] See you next time on the Healing for Male Survivors podcast.