49 - Live Interview with Jason Mellard

[00:00:03] Welcome to the Healing for Male Survivors podcast. This is a podcast for male survivors of sexual abuse and assault, whether as a child or as an adult. Know that you are not alone and the abuse was not your fault. My name is Mike Chapman. I'm a certified recovery life coach and also a survivor. Let's find hope and healing together.

[00:00:28] And welcome to the Healing for Male Survivors podcast. I'm your host, Mike Chapman. And with me today is Jason Mellard and I will introduce him in a moment. We also have a live audience with us. If you would like to join us on future episodes, you can learn more about how to do so at my website, polarlifeconsulting.com slash live.

[00:00:55] And a reminder to our live guests, you can be as anonymous as you would like. If you have any questions for our guest, you can put those in the chat and we will only say your name if you manually type it in with your question or comment.

[00:01:11] And let me introduce Jason. Jason is the founder of Own Your Identity, where he empowers men experiencing unwanted same-sex attraction to live the life they truly desire.

[00:01:26] Jason is a certified high-performance coach and certified husband material coach like I am.

[00:01:32] He has experienced sexual abuse, same-sex attraction, and freedom from porn.

[00:01:39] Jason is committed to helping men live beyond their unwanted attractions and negative habits into a life of purpose and possibility through the power of Christ and for the glory of God.

[00:01:52] You can listen to Jason's podcast, Own Your Identity, where he provides practical tools to bring clarity and hope to men navigating unwanted same-sex attraction.

[00:02:03] And Jason also has created ssaquiz.com, which you can take the quiz to discover how much unwanted same-sex attraction is impacting your life.

[00:02:14] And you can learn more about Jason and his podcast, OwnYourIdentityNow.com, and links to all of those things will also be in the show notes.

[00:02:26] And we're going to start this episode, like we do most, with four questions.

[00:02:32] Now it's time for four questions, that part of the podcast, when we get to know our guest a bit better by asking a few questions.

[00:02:39] Let's go.

[00:02:39] So, Jason, what is your favorite food memory?

[00:02:44] Mike, thank you for having me on the podcast.

[00:02:46] And I would say my favorite food memory is on my honeymoon, where my wife and I were traveling to Barbados, and we spent $300 on an amazing meal.

[00:02:57] And that was 13 years ago, so that was even more money than it is now.

[00:03:01] Wow.

[00:03:01] And I don't remember the food that much, but I remember the atmosphere was just incredible, because the weather was perfect, and you didn't even need walls.

[00:03:09] On any of the buildings.

[00:03:11] Right.

[00:03:11] So some of it was indoors and outdoors, and we were up on this cliff overlooking the ocean.

[00:03:16] And I remember just thinking to myself, is this really true?

[00:03:20] Am I really sitting here in this amazing place with this amazing woman?

[00:03:25] You know, how could this be?

[00:03:26] This is not who I am, you know, from where I came from and all that I've been through, that I'm sitting here with this amazing, beautiful woman in this time.

[00:03:34] Wow, that was just incredible.

[00:03:35] So I would say that's my favorite food memory.

[00:03:38] Yeah, you're describing it like the ending of one of those Hallmark movies, you know, where they, yeah, so the couple meets and they have this nice romantic dinner and they live happily ever after.

[00:03:49] And yeah, cut.

[00:03:52] And yeah, I can just picture that.

[00:03:54] That sounds lovely.

[00:03:55] So what kind of food was it?

[00:03:56] Well, just local cuisine or do you even remember?

[00:04:01] Gosh, I hardly remember.

[00:04:02] What I do remember is that the water that they kept refilling our water glasses with was not free.

[00:04:08] So I think half of our bill was bottled water that they kept pouring in there.

[00:04:12] Yes.

[00:04:12] The meal was amazing.

[00:04:14] And, you know, I think the atmosphere just made it all taste better, too.

[00:04:17] Oh, absolutely.

[00:04:19] Oh, how nice.

[00:04:20] How nice.

[00:04:21] Now, what is your favorite Christmas or holiday memory?

[00:04:25] You know, you had this question that you gave me ahead of time and I thought, well, what's the first thing that would come into my mind?

[00:04:32] And a scene from a Halloween a couple of years ago came from my mind.

[00:04:36] It was a little bit surprised because I really do love Christmas.

[00:04:38] And growing up, it was actually one of the holidays that went well and really enjoyed.

[00:04:44] My dad got super excited about wrapping all the presents and seeing it open one by one.

[00:04:49] But two years ago, my son had just turned three years old and he was scootering around our really safe neighborhood with a friend of his.

[00:04:59] And it was a really nice evening.

[00:05:01] And so we were just walking along the street.

[00:05:03] All of the homes around us, you know, had great trick-or-treating and we're decorating all these kids around.

[00:05:08] And again, I'm in this another scene where I'm pinching myself thinking, I have this little guy that is just so cute and he feels so capable of scootering around.

[00:05:22] And that I've created, God has allowed me to create this really safe place for him where he's not afraid.

[00:05:28] He's not feeling, you know, vulnerable or what's coming around the next bend.

[00:05:32] Right.

[00:05:33] And it was just so poignant for me to see that.

[00:05:36] And my wife and I would just look at each other and smile.

[00:05:39] It was really a great memory.

[00:05:41] Nice.

[00:05:42] Nice.

[00:05:43] So what is your favorite travel memory?

[00:05:47] Of course, that first one would qualify as well.

[00:05:49] But sounds like you've got something else in mind.

[00:05:52] When I was in college, I got to do a study abroad trip to Italy.

[00:05:56] I was in school and we saw so many amazing things.

[00:06:00] I mean, you know, the cathedrals and, you know, Venice and all that there is to see in those places.

[00:06:06] But one of the best places that we went to was in Capri, Italy, the Blue Grotto.

[00:06:11] I don't know if you've heard of that, but it's basically an underwater cave.

[00:06:15] And these Italian guys, you know, got maybe five or six of my friends into a boat.

[00:06:21] And we went into this cave where most of the cave was underwater, but just a little bit was above water.

[00:06:27] So you're able to kind of canoe in, you know, underneath the arch of the cave and be in there.

[00:06:33] Well, the water allowed the sun to come into the water and then reflect back up inside the cave.

[00:06:39] And it was just an amazing blue light that was in there just shimmering around.

[00:06:44] And the Italian guys, I think just for effect, they started singing this really romantic song in Italian.

[00:06:49] It was just such an immersive environment in this place.

[00:06:53] You know, I just felt like I could get lost in it and be there forever.

[00:06:56] So I was just really pointed to God and his beauty and how, wow, who could think of that, you know, to create some underwater cave that you could get into where the light just shines in an amazing way and create somebody's brushes.

[00:07:09] You know, that could create such a wonderful environment and friendship around.

[00:07:13] So that was my best travel memory.

[00:07:15] Oh, excellent.

[00:07:16] Plus being in architect school and studying all the Roman architecture and understanding it, but having all that technical training to really appreciate all the different types of molding and so forth that was used and the design aspects and all of that.

[00:07:34] So I'm sure that even enhanced that travel experience for sure.

[00:07:38] It was a blast.

[00:07:38] Yes.

[00:07:40] So what is your favorite scripture or inspirational quote?

[00:07:44] And what about it speaks to you?

[00:07:48] Revelation, it talks about God coming to the door and knocking.

[00:07:52] And that is such a powerful verse to me.

[00:07:54] It's Revelation 3.20.

[00:07:56] Behold, I stand at the door and knock.

[00:07:57] If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and eat with him and he with me.

[00:08:03] It's the idea of God coming to my door, coming to where I'm at and knocking on it saying, hey, you in there?

[00:08:12] You know, I want to hang out with you.

[00:08:13] At least that's how I interpret that verse.

[00:08:15] And wanting to spend time just with me over a meal.

[00:08:18] And, you know, a meal is a time where you talk about what's going on in your day and you talk about your highs and lows and what your hopes are and what's hurting you at the time.

[00:08:28] And, you know, what are some things that are going on that you really need to process?

[00:08:31] And I could just envision being with God in that place.

[00:08:36] And I just never felt that somebody would want to come and just spend dedicated time with me.

[00:08:42] Because what do I have to talk about?

[00:08:44] Who am I?

[00:08:44] You know, am I really interesting?

[00:08:46] What do I have of value?

[00:08:48] I spent so much time trying to be other people.

[00:08:52] But why would you want to spend time with me?

[00:08:54] Especially coming so far wherever God, I thought, you know, is coming from.

[00:08:57] Of course, he's right there next to me.

[00:08:59] Right.

[00:08:59] I love that verse and it speaks to me and really spoke to me in my healing journey.

[00:09:04] Right.

[00:09:04] Oh, absolutely.

[00:09:05] I love that.

[00:09:07] So that leads us into your story.

[00:09:10] And like a lot of stories, sometimes it doesn't always go in time order.

[00:09:14] So if you need to hop around while you tell your story, that's fine.

[00:09:18] And then I know you're also a survivor of abuse.

[00:09:22] So whatever, however much you want to share about that part of your life.

[00:09:27] And then from there, move on to your healing journey.

[00:09:30] What things have you tried that have been successful?

[00:09:33] What things have you tried that were not successful or less than successful?

[00:09:37] And then what you're doing now.

[00:09:39] And it seems like you've got a whole bunch of states in the air that I'd love to learn more about.

[00:09:45] So let's hear more about Jason.

[00:09:48] Yeah, thank you so much.

[00:09:50] A couple of years ago, I did a visualization exercise and I envisioned myself meeting my younger self.

[00:09:59] And what really struck me was just how alone I was.

[00:10:04] I knew that I was by myself a lot.

[00:10:06] I knew that, you know, I didn't know how to express myself and, you know, things happened that were really difficult.

[00:10:11] But just spending time with my younger self and approaching him before he even saw me.

[00:10:16] I saw him sitting on a log and he was just drawing something in the dirt.

[00:10:19] And I just thought, wow, just that sense of aloneness.

[00:10:22] And that's really what it was like so much of the time growing up.

[00:10:27] I mean, I could be, of course, around people.

[00:10:29] I had a sister and she was a lot of fun.

[00:10:31] And we were together for the first several years of her life.

[00:10:34] And then she went off and spent a lot of time with friends.

[00:10:36] And I felt like an only child for a while.

[00:10:38] But a lot of it had to do with feeling like I wasn't seen, you know.

[00:10:43] And when you're not seen, it's a really lonely place.

[00:10:46] I grew up in a town outside of Dallas, Texas.

[00:10:50] It was kind of a small town at the time.

[00:10:52] And all of our family was in South Carolina, our extended family.

[00:10:56] My dad came here to go to Dallas Theological Seminary.

[00:10:59] And it really is a beautiful thing.

[00:11:01] He felt called into ministry.

[00:11:04] And I've got to get, you know, God credit for that.

[00:11:07] And I got to give my dad credit for stepping up to that call.

[00:11:10] I mean, it really is significant.

[00:11:11] There was a time in his life, you know, prior to him making that move where he was bringing people to Christ

[00:11:16] and really enjoying sharing his faith.

[00:11:18] And I really believe God was doing great work in him then.

[00:11:22] He came to, you know, Dallas, started going to Theological Seminary there and started pastoring a church,

[00:11:29] a little Baptist church out in the country.

[00:11:32] And it was hard for him.

[00:11:34] You know, talk about feeling alone.

[00:11:35] My dad felt really alone.

[00:11:37] Here he was away from his family, imperfect family.

[00:11:40] That was on the East Coast.

[00:11:42] And it was just the four of us here.

[00:11:44] And he'd already always felt separate from his peers, from his brothers, from his dad.

[00:11:51] My dad, as well as myself, has experienced same-sex attraction.

[00:11:56] And he always, you know, never really got over the sense that he was uniquely flawed in life.

[00:12:03] And so he was just troubled so much of the time.

[00:12:06] And it's a hard place to be.

[00:12:09] Well, it was a hard place for me to be as well, because he was not only the pastor of the church I went to,

[00:12:15] but he was also my abuser.

[00:12:18] There were a lot of times where I would find myself in bed at night, and he would be in bed with me.

[00:12:25] I'd wake up, and he would be there.

[00:12:27] And nothing X-rated happened, but there were plenty of things that caused my little mind, you know,

[00:12:33] probably from the ages of four or five up until, you know, 10, to really come up with some beliefs about who I was and about life that didn't serve me well at all.

[00:12:44] Right.

[00:12:46] I remember he would want to have us just be wearing our underwear in bed next to each other.

[00:12:52] And he would want to have our backs touching, kind of lean back to back.

[00:12:57] And I was like, this is confusing.

[00:12:58] I wonder why we're doing this.

[00:13:01] And then he would, you know, bite my ear in the middle of the night.

[00:13:07] I'm just laying there, and I'm like, okay, this adult, my dad, is biting my ear.

[00:13:12] I don't understand why he's doing that.

[00:13:15] And it kind of felt good, honestly.

[00:13:19] It was pleasurable.

[00:13:20] And it was just so confusing, and I didn't know what to say.

[00:13:23] I didn't know how to express myself in that.

[00:13:25] I didn't know if this was supposed to be normal or not.

[00:13:27] I think I was pretty sure that it wasn't normal.

[00:13:30] I think somehow you just know that as a kid.

[00:13:33] There were other things that he did.

[00:13:35] I remember he would touch me in places that I really didn't enjoy.

[00:13:39] And sometimes I would ask him to stop, and he would make an excuse for why it's okay for him to do that.

[00:13:45] And I felt like, okay, I guess I don't have a say in this.

[00:13:50] There are just a lot of instances like that where my father used me instead of pouring into me.

[00:13:59] And he didn't have much to give, really.

[00:14:01] He was a pretty empty guy himself.

[00:14:03] So it kind of makes sense.

[00:14:04] Maybe there's not a lot for him to pour into me with.

[00:14:07] I mean, he really wanted to experience the presence of God.

[00:14:10] He wanted to be somebody that communicated God's love.

[00:14:14] I know he really did, but somehow he wasn't able to receive it in the way that God wanted him to.

[00:14:21] And so then he couldn't pass it on like he would really want to.

[00:14:26] He would look at me while I was taking a shower.

[00:14:29] He would just stand there in the bathroom.

[00:14:30] I'm taking a shower and staring at me.

[00:14:34] I was like, well, this is strange.

[00:14:37] I don't know why he's looking at me.

[00:14:40] You know, what is this about?

[00:14:43] And I don't know.

[00:14:44] I just had to make sense of these really strange things when I was young.

[00:14:48] And I didn't know who to tell.

[00:14:49] I didn't know who to talk to about that.

[00:14:51] And there was a time where he had gum in his mouth and he kissed me.

[00:15:00] And as we were kissing, he put the gum in my mouth.

[00:15:04] It was this green spearmint gum.

[00:15:06] And to this day, I cannot even think about chewing green spearmint gum.

[00:15:10] Like I remember doing it one time and I was like, that doesn't do green gum, guys.

[00:15:14] Sorry.

[00:15:16] They're like, why?

[00:15:17] And I was like, I can't say.

[00:15:19] But I just don't do that.

[00:15:20] Yeah.

[00:15:20] Tastes and smells can be a very, very strong trigger for sure.

[00:15:25] And sounds like that's what you're experiencing when you even get that scent.

[00:15:29] Right.

[00:15:30] It's just bizarre.

[00:15:33] And I did something that he didn't like in that moment to stop him from doing that.

[00:15:39] And I got lectured.

[00:15:41] You know, I would say, Dad, please don't do this.

[00:15:43] And I would get this really long lecture.

[00:15:45] He would sit me down.

[00:15:46] And I don't even know, of course, what he was saying.

[00:15:49] It's kind of like peanuts.

[00:15:51] Right.

[00:15:52] Right.

[00:15:54] Yeah.

[00:15:54] I remember sitting like two feet away.

[00:15:56] And all I remember thinking is, do I look him in the eyes or do I look at his mouth as it's moving?

[00:16:00] I just kept going back and forth.

[00:16:01] And I was in this weird zone.

[00:16:02] And I thought, OK, I wonder when he's going to stop.

[00:16:05] And I wasn't there.

[00:16:06] I was just kind of separate somehow from this crazy scene.

[00:16:10] Right.

[00:16:10] But I wanted somebody to notice.

[00:16:13] You know, I wanted somebody to ask me, you know, what's going on?

[00:16:17] Because I didn't have the voice to say it.

[00:16:18] You know, Satan allowed my dad's behavior to convince me that I didn't have a voice.

[00:16:25] And I think that was one of the biggest things that came from the sexual abuse is that belief that I don't have a voice.

[00:16:34] If I do, no one's going to listen to it.

[00:16:37] And that something is inherently wrong with me.

[00:16:40] So I got passed down from him to me.

[00:16:43] And it's easy to do.

[00:16:45] I would think, what do I need to do or be to be acceptable, to know that I can just kind of show up as I am?

[00:16:54] That didn't make any sense to me to be that way.

[00:16:57] And I would see other people that seemed really comfortable with who they were and comfortable in life.

[00:17:01] And I wanted to experience that.

[00:17:03] But all I knew how to feel like I was OK was to mirror what I thought people's expectations were of me.

[00:17:10] That's who I became is whatever I thought other people expected of me.

[00:17:15] I would get a lot of praise from the older ladies at church.

[00:17:18] Again, the small country Baptist church.

[00:17:21] And that was a lot of my identity.

[00:17:22] Oh, you know, cute Jason, you know, always has a smile on his face.

[00:17:26] Well, I would end up, you know, getting sore in the cheeks because I would smile so much because I thought that's how I'm going to get some love and acceptance and attention.

[00:17:33] So if I don't have anything else, I have this smile going for me.

[00:17:37] But I had so much more, you know, so much more.

[00:17:41] And I wanted somebody to ask me more about me.

[00:17:44] What are you interested in?

[00:17:46] You know, what gets you excited?

[00:17:47] I had things that I was interested in, but I would go to my dad multiple times and I say,

[00:17:53] Dad, I just learned about algebra today in school.

[00:17:56] You know, X plus two equals four or something like that.

[00:18:01] And he's like, oh, yeah, X squared plus Y squared equals V squared.

[00:18:05] And I said, oh, OK.

[00:18:08] And that's all there was to it.

[00:18:10] And I said, OK.

[00:18:11] Or I wanted to create a computer program.

[00:18:13] My dad taught computer programming on the side as well as being a pastor.

[00:18:18] And I thought it would be really fun, you know, to make a little computer program or maybe develop a game.

[00:18:23] This is way back when BASIC was a program of choice back then.

[00:18:28] And my dad just handed me the manual to BASIC and said, well, here you go.

[00:18:34] When my dad teaches computer programming, you know, he could have sat next to me and said, oh, well, this is what the code means.

[00:18:40] And if you want to tell me what you want to create, Jason, what are you excited about?

[00:18:44] You want to create a game?

[00:18:45] You want to what do you want to have as the output?

[00:18:47] And I'll help you figure out what the steps are to get there.

[00:18:49] And we'll do this together.

[00:18:50] Wouldn't that be fun?

[00:18:51] Right.

[00:18:51] Right.

[00:18:52] But instead, my dad spent a lot of time in his bedroom with the door closed.

[00:18:56] And when I was really young, I didn't understand what he was doing behind that locked door.

[00:19:01] I just knew it was something that was more important than spending time with me.

[00:19:04] Right.

[00:19:05] My dad, you know, handled the stress that he put on himself in life was to look at pornography.

[00:19:11] And he would do that, you know, so often.

[00:19:13] He would come from work and just go into the bedroom, close and lock the door.

[00:19:17] My mom knew about it.

[00:19:19] And he would look at gay magazines, gay videos and masturbate to those.

[00:19:26] And that's what he was choosing to do with his time.

[00:19:29] And then he would come out when it was dinnertime in his tidy whities and join us at the dinner table.

[00:19:36] It was so bizarre that he would do that.

[00:19:39] One time, he would ask us around the dinner table, like, in what order do you wash yourself when you're taking a shower or taking a bath?

[00:19:47] Like, do you wash your head first, your arms first or what?

[00:19:50] I mean, I don't know.

[00:19:51] Okay.

[00:19:53] Whatever.

[00:19:53] I guess we all thought we needed to answer that question.

[00:19:57] And maybe it could have been an innocuous question in a normal situation.

[00:20:04] But looking back on it and like, see if it's getting off on that somehow.

[00:20:09] And it was just such a, unfortunately, you know, toxic environment.

[00:20:14] Right.

[00:20:15] And I just got confused about a lot of things.

[00:20:18] And I wanted to be the person, you know, that could be free and be the person that I admired.

[00:20:24] And so I spent a lot of time, you know, from that point as I grew up trying to figure out how to do that.

[00:20:29] Right.

[00:20:29] So it sounds like the abuse from your father was inappropriate touch and a lot of blurred boundaries, but nothing really beyond that.

[00:20:38] Correct?

[00:20:39] That's correct.

[00:20:40] Right.

[00:20:40] Right.

[00:20:41] Abuse.

[00:20:42] I tell people who have, they'll call it minor abuse compared to major abuse.

[00:20:47] And it's all abuse.

[00:20:48] It's all bad.

[00:20:49] It's all destructive.

[00:20:50] And it can be very harmful and very traumatic, regardless of how severe or how quote unquote minor it is.

[00:21:01] But yes, it can be horribly traumatic still.

[00:21:05] And yeah, that's you definitely had that father hunger in you wanting that love from him in healthy, appropriate ways.

[00:21:15] And you were getting those needs met in his brokenness, in his unhealthy attachment to you.

[00:21:22] You were able to get some of that.

[00:21:24] But yeah, it was very inappropriate for sure.

[00:21:27] Yes.

[00:21:27] And I know some of the things you mentioned, not having your own identity, but taking on whatever that person wanted.

[00:21:34] And that's one of those threat responses, fight, flight, freeze.

[00:21:39] That one's called fawn.

[00:21:40] You're fawning, trying to, it's people pleasing.

[00:21:43] That's me.

[00:21:44] Yeah.

[00:21:45] Yeah.

[00:21:45] Yeah.

[00:21:45] I get it.

[00:21:47] I was very much there.

[00:21:48] And I read that and it's like, oh, crap.

[00:21:50] That explains a lot.

[00:21:52] Especially a kid relating to grownups in general.

[00:21:56] And getting them to really like you.

[00:21:58] I mean, I was always teacher's pet, all of that.

[00:22:01] And yeah, it's not healthy.

[00:22:04] You should be hanging out with the other kids, you know, not striving to get these attention from adults because you got that empty spot inside of you.

[00:22:15] Trying to earn their love by taking on whatever role you think they want to see in you.

[00:22:23] So, but it is a response for sure.

[00:22:26] And it gets learned when bad stuff happens.

[00:22:30] Okay.

[00:22:31] Well, if I'm more proper, I'm more what he wants, then the bad stuff won't happen.

[00:22:36] That often has nothing to do.

[00:22:38] One has very little to do with the other.

[00:22:39] But that's how our little child mind thinks that I need to do better to not make these things happen for sure.

[00:22:49] Yes.

[00:22:49] I wanted to feel confident.

[00:22:50] I wanted to feel excited about life.

[00:22:53] I wanted to feel engaged in what I was doing.

[00:22:56] Right.

[00:22:56] But it didn't work to be authentic and to be me and to express my true self.

[00:23:03] That didn't work.

[00:23:04] Right.

[00:23:04] I didn't realize that's what was happening at the time.

[00:23:08] And so, yeah, I still wanted those feelings.

[00:23:11] And then I realized I got those feelings when I did what other people expected of me or what I thought they expected of me.

[00:23:18] Or when I achieved a certain success or status, then I felt those things.

[00:23:25] And I got addicted to that, you know?

[00:23:27] Right.

[00:23:27] We all want to feel good.

[00:23:28] We want to move towards pleasure and away from pain.

[00:23:31] Yeah.

[00:23:31] And especially in the church environment, because I know your father was a pastor.

[00:23:36] Is that right?

[00:23:37] Yes.

[00:23:38] Yeah.

[00:23:38] And so a pastor's kid.

[00:23:40] So you got the whole church environment, too.

[00:23:42] And yeah, it's so easy.

[00:23:45] Yeah.

[00:23:46] Churches love, maybe not intentionally, but love to have codependent members because they're all people-pleasing.

[00:23:52] And then they get all the volunteer work out of them until they totally burn out and leave.

[00:23:56] And then you're replaced with more codependent people coming in.

[00:23:59] It can be very unhealthy unless a wise pastor is really good at keeping balance and teaching that and modeling that.

[00:24:09] And the last church I attended, we just moved to a new area.

[00:24:13] So don't quite have a home church yet.

[00:24:15] Where we used to live, he was very good at modeling.

[00:24:18] And it's like, okay, find an area of need that you don't necessarily like to serve and one area that you really, really feel called to serve, something that really lights your fire.

[00:24:27] And that's it, too.

[00:24:28] That's it.

[00:24:29] Don't do any more.

[00:24:30] Spend more time with work, family, whatever.

[00:24:33] Have that healthy balance and try to encourage that whenever possible.

[00:24:38] Yeah, I think that's a very healthy perspective for some people.

[00:24:42] They can spend all their lives in church and then neglect their children and neglect their families and neglect other responsibilities.

[00:24:51] Yeah, that's definitely a healthier perspective.

[00:24:54] So when did you first disclose your story about what happened with your father to anyone?

[00:25:01] Whether confront your father about it, siblings, wife, mother.

[00:25:07] Yeah, right.

[00:25:08] Not for a long time.

[00:25:10] Not until after college, after I had a nervous breakdown.

[00:25:15] I ended up in the emergency room and life just wasn't working.

[00:25:19] And there's a lot of things that my dad did give me that were positive.

[00:25:23] One of the things that I've learned that I can do as a survivor who's empowered and can make my own choices in life is I can choose to honor him.

[00:25:34] I've forgiven him.

[00:25:35] I think that really came from God.

[00:25:37] And I don't have to just see all of his faults, but I can say he taught me the value of a good education.

[00:25:43] He did teach me the value of being open.

[00:25:47] And when he realized he had a lot of issues, he did seek to get some help.

[00:25:52] And he did set an example of that, probably the first in his family line of choosing to go to counseling, choosing to really work on himself.

[00:26:01] And I'm not sure that I would have started my recovery journey without his emphasis on communicating to me that that would be a powerful thing.

[00:26:09] It started out in a 12-step group.

[00:26:11] He suggested that I go to Al-Anon because he had an issue with alcoholism as well.

[00:26:16] And he could kind of tell I had some codependent type behaviors and mindset.

[00:26:21] It says, I have described to you.

[00:26:22] And that was really helpful.

[00:26:24] And I also started going into counseling.

[00:26:27] And gosh, it was not too long into counseling that after talking for a while, that counselor suggested, hey, I think that there is abuse in your family.

[00:26:37] What you're describing is sexual abuse because I hadn't put the label on it.

[00:26:42] You know, I knew all those weird little things, you know, happened, but I hadn't put that label on it.

[00:26:48] And I didn't even know how to acknowledge that something was kind of wrong with my family, that we weren't a healthy family.

[00:26:54] I didn't know how to productively say there was a lot of unhealthy patterns in my family.

[00:27:00] Right.

[00:27:01] And from a child's perspective, that's normal.

[00:27:04] It is.

[00:27:05] And you just assume everyone else has the same thing.

[00:27:08] Oh, you mean your father doesn't sleep in your bed at night?

[00:27:11] Really?

[00:27:12] And how could I say or think that I'm living in a family that's not normal?

[00:27:17] Because my identity was to be normal.

[00:27:20] Like my identity is everything is good and everything is okay.

[00:27:23] I can help you.

[00:27:24] Right.

[00:27:25] So I had to decide to really acknowledge first that there was a lot of brokenness that was in my family and that I had experienced and moved from acknowledgement to acceptance.

[00:27:37] But that was a big gap right there between those two things because I didn't like it.

[00:27:42] I remember after that counseling appointment when he said that, he shared, Jason, that was sexual abuse.

[00:27:47] And it sunk in.

[00:27:49] I'm somebody that was abused sexually.

[00:27:52] Right.

[00:27:53] From that counseling appointment, I had been invited to a wedding that was happening a couple hours later.

[00:27:59] And it was so weird to be sitting in this marriage ceremony of one of my friends.

[00:28:04] And all I could think about was, oh, my goodness, I've been sexually abused.

[00:28:09] You know, that was so big and so profound of a piece of news.

[00:28:14] And putting that label on it.

[00:28:17] Yeah.

[00:28:18] It's mind-blowing for sure.

[00:28:20] It is.

[00:28:20] And I think, yeah, we, right.

[00:28:23] Uh-huh.

[00:28:23] Right.

[00:28:24] Absolutely.

[00:28:25] We would call it non-contact sexual abuse, even though, yeah, you had like the ear biting and so forth.

[00:28:31] But because, yeah, the genitals weren't involved, it would be mostly classified as non-contact sexual abuse.

[00:28:38] But still very disturbing.

[00:28:40] The voyeurism, watching you shower, all of that just being inappropriate.

[00:28:46] Yeah.

[00:28:47] Blurred boundaries.

[00:28:49] Yeah.

[00:28:50] There's a lot of unhealthiness for sure.

[00:28:54] So did you, when did you disclose to family members or did you?

[00:28:58] And how did that go?

[00:28:59] I have.

[00:29:01] I'm trying to think who I disclosed to first.

[00:29:04] I would just say little things here and there, probably, just in little bits.

[00:29:08] And it wasn't until after I had gone to counseling one-on-one and then joined a recovery group for adult males who had experienced childhood sexual abuse that I felt empowered to confront my dad.

[00:29:23] And we practiced it during that group session.

[00:29:26] I had a chair and I practiced confronting him about it.

[00:29:31] And I don't think it's a requirement, of course, that everybody does that.

[00:29:35] Not at all.

[00:29:35] Right.

[00:29:36] But I knew that for me, if I was going to experience somewhat of a decent relationship with him, it was something that needed to be done.

[00:29:44] And I wanted a better relationship with him.

[00:29:46] That was important to me.

[00:29:48] And I wanted to do that.

[00:29:50] Right.

[00:29:50] And that seems important because you still had a close relationship with your father.

[00:29:56] You still, it's not like you, like I did, moved across the country and had no contact with him because my father was my abuser as well.

[00:30:04] You maintained the relationship all along this entire time.

[00:30:10] Yeah.

[00:30:11] More or less.

[00:30:12] It was not a good relationship at all, but I wanted it.

[00:30:16] I wanted a relationship.

[00:30:18] I wanted something.

[00:30:19] I knew for what I wanted, this is the next step I felt like in getting counsel as well.

[00:30:27] And I had a lot of people supporting me in that.

[00:30:29] And I said, hey, can we meet up?

[00:30:31] And we met in a safe place outside.

[00:30:34] And I just listed off all the things really specific that I had experienced from him as a kid.

[00:30:43] And he owned it.

[00:30:44] He owned everything.

[00:30:47] And that was really powerful for me.

[00:30:50] It really was nice.

[00:30:52] I didn't know quite what to expect.

[00:30:54] He could have been defensive.

[00:30:55] He could have.

[00:30:55] What was his response?

[00:30:57] What did he say?

[00:30:58] Yeah.

[00:30:58] He said, it's all true.

[00:30:59] It's all true.

[00:31:00] And I'm sorry.

[00:31:01] Did he have an explanation?

[00:31:03] Did he experience any of these kind of things when he was a boy from family members?

[00:31:07] Or where did all of this come from?

[00:31:09] Because oftentimes, those who experience sometimes perpetrate.

[00:31:13] Not always.

[00:31:15] But did he give any kind of background or where all that came from to help you understand it better?

[00:31:21] Sure.

[00:31:22] He didn't say that he experienced any sexual abuse in any way.

[00:31:28] Except the thing that he talked about is his parents got divorced at the end of high school.

[00:31:34] And his dad was having an affair kind of all during high school.

[00:31:36] And his dad would hang out with my dad occasionally.

[00:31:41] You know, his father was very rough and tumble.

[00:31:44] And my dad was sensitive.

[00:31:45] And they didn't really have a lot in common.

[00:31:49] But my grandfather would share all of his sexual exploits that he had with the woman that he was having an affair with, with my dad.

[00:31:56] And describe in detail all the things that he was doing with her to him.

[00:32:01] And I don't know why he would do that.

[00:32:05] And that's the only type of sexual abuse.

[00:32:09] Because I think that is sexual abuse.

[00:32:10] That would classify, yes.

[00:32:12] Also, non-contact sexual abuse.

[00:32:14] Yeah, that would be inappropriate.

[00:32:15] Even though it sounds like your father was like a teenager at the time.

[00:32:18] Right.

[00:32:20] But still, yeah, that's very inappropriate.

[00:32:23] For sure.

[00:32:24] Yeah, my grandfather was a very harsh man.

[00:32:27] There was a time when they were going to go to a football game.

[00:32:32] And my dad was climbing a tree in the front yard.

[00:32:35] Maybe he was seven.

[00:32:36] I'm not sure.

[00:32:36] And he fell out of the tree.

[00:32:39] And somehow, as he did that, he cut his mouth.

[00:32:43] Wow.

[00:32:43] He cut his mouth, you know, probably about an inch from the side.

[00:32:47] And he was bleeding all over the place.

[00:32:48] And the thing his father told him was,

[00:32:51] Oh, how could he do this?

[00:32:52] You know, we're going to miss the game.

[00:32:53] He had to go to the hospital and get stitches.

[00:32:55] And for the rest of his life, he's had a scar right there on his face from that incident.

[00:33:00] And I think every time you look in the mirror, you're reminded of something where your dad didn't care about you getting hurt because a dumb game was more important than you.

[00:33:10] I know that's really hard.

[00:33:12] You know, I totally get it.

[00:33:14] Of course, he doesn't make what he did to me right at all.

[00:33:17] But I really empathize with him.

[00:33:21] His dad didn't see him.

[00:33:22] And he didn't see me.

[00:33:24] And I wish my dad had been seen.

[00:33:26] I wish my dad had felt comfortable expressing himself.

[00:33:30] And that's why a lot of the work I do now, I do it because I want people like myself, people like my dad to be seen and to believe that they have a voice and that they have a compelling future in life.

[00:33:43] I think about my dad when he was the age of 16 years old, hearing this sexual exploits, you know, from his father.

[00:33:52] But inside, he actually was attracted to guys.

[00:33:55] That must have been really hard.

[00:33:56] You know, here he is.

[00:33:57] His dad is talking all about women in a real sexual way.

[00:34:01] But, you know, my father is like, yeah, but I actually am getting a hard on by the guy, you know, on TV or whatever.

[00:34:10] And it's got to be a really hard place to be.

[00:34:14] So I really empathize with him.

[00:34:16] And, you know, I think about him sometimes.

[00:34:18] You know, I actually printed out a picture of him in high school when I was recording one of my podcasts one time and just had it in front of my face, kind of right around the camera.

[00:34:30] And during that podcast, I just I talked to him.

[00:34:34] I talked to my 16 year old father because I love that guy.

[00:34:38] You know, I love I love his younger self and and I can love all of my father.

[00:34:44] I get to choose to do that.

[00:34:45] And I like to do that.

[00:34:48] My dad committed suicide six years ago.

[00:34:51] It was really, really hard.

[00:34:54] Right.

[00:34:54] I was very angry at him.

[00:34:56] You know, for four years, I just felt every anniversary of his death and on his birthday, another wave of grief.

[00:35:06] And again, we didn't have a great relationship.

[00:35:10] But it was a loss of a lot of the good things, you know, that were there about him and a loss of the possibility of what could be.

[00:35:18] But I remember the fourth year after his death was especially hard.

[00:35:22] And I was so curious as to why that was.

[00:35:25] And when I thought about it more, it was because he wasn't there for the birth of my son.

[00:35:31] Two girls and a boy.

[00:35:33] And gosh, how cool would it have been, you know, for my father to be there and me and my son and for us to have this multigenerational male experience.

[00:35:43] But now I'm the oldest guy, you know, in the Mellard tribe here, you know, me and my son.

[00:35:48] And it's beautiful, but I miss him.

[00:35:51] And it was last year, though, in talking about choosing how I want to feel and being empowered with that is I'm like, you know, I could go through another round of grief on year six and just kind of see however that is.

[00:36:01] And that would be totally fine.

[00:36:02] But I really decided to look at it with a different perspective and say, you know, how could this be something that would inspire me this year, the anniversary of his death?

[00:36:12] And it inspires me because I realize that life is short.

[00:36:15] And I want to live every day with my son to the fullest that it can be.

[00:36:20] We did get more connection prior to his death.

[00:36:23] I'll start working backwards for my story a little bit.

[00:36:25] How's that?

[00:36:25] Yeah, I was wondering, that was what I was going to ask you, how much time between the time you disclosed and he owned up to it, but to the point of his suicide and what were those years like?

[00:36:38] Yeah.

[00:36:39] Three months before he died, you know, we started talking a lot more.

[00:36:42] He called and reached out to me.

[00:36:44] And there were times that we would connect and sometimes we wouldn't.

[00:36:49] There was times that he would be, would estrange himself from the family and change his phone number.

[00:36:54] He was living here in the Dallas Metroplex at one time.

[00:36:57] And I had no idea actually where he was.

[00:36:59] I didn't know his new email or his new phone number.

[00:37:02] And I would think to myself, maybe I'm just going to run into him at the mall, you know?

[00:37:08] And then he got to a place where he was really hurting and he called and he reached out and he wanted to talk like every day.

[00:37:16] And I was, I was happy to, you know, I was there for him.

[00:37:20] And two weeks before he died, we went to Six Flags, just the two of us.

[00:37:23] That was always our safe place.

[00:37:25] As a kid, we would go to Six Flags, my sister and my dad and I, and sometimes my mom.

[00:37:31] And as crazy as, you know, life was, nothing bad happened there.

[00:37:35] Right.

[00:37:35] He went there, he and I, and it was really a special time, but I could tell something was kind of different.

[00:37:40] He had left my mom after college to go into the gay lifestyle.

[00:37:47] And that was really what led him to estrange himself, you know, from the family and pull back in a lot of ways and pull back from God.

[00:37:54] And he told me, Jason, leaving your mom, you know, 15 years ago was the worst decision I'd ever made.

[00:38:00] And at that point, he's 66 years old.

[00:38:03] And I'm looking at him, we're standing in line for this ride and my heart just sunk.

[00:38:07] I'm like, wow, dad, I'm so sorry.

[00:38:10] You know, that you're at this age to think like you've made a huge mistake and you left something that was great.

[00:38:17] And now you, you feel even more alone.

[00:38:20] Yeah.

[00:38:20] Gosh, I'm so sorry, dad.

[00:38:22] And two weeks later, he was gone.

[00:38:25] I didn't know he was going to do something like that, but it happened.

[00:38:29] It was just so tragic.

[00:38:30] He went on a gay lifestyle, I think, believing that he was going to find something that was missing in his life.

[00:38:37] He was going to be able to express a part of himself.

[00:38:40] He told me this before he went in.

[00:38:41] He's like, Jason, what do you think?

[00:38:42] I'm thinking about hanging out with gay people more often.

[00:38:46] And I want to be able to express that side of myself.

[00:38:49] I didn't really know what that meant.

[00:38:50] I was like, I don't know, dad.

[00:38:53] And, you know, he did that and it just didn't give him what he wanted.

[00:38:57] And he felt separate prior to going into the gay lifestyle and he felt separate after going into the gay lifestyle.

[00:39:04] And it wasn't too long after I shared my abuse with him that he went into the lifestyle.

[00:39:11] I don't know that there's any correlation there.

[00:39:13] You know, maybe I could make something up.

[00:39:15] You know, I shared the abuse and then he felt so down.

[00:39:19] And maybe.

[00:39:19] So how much time was that when you disclosed with him?

[00:39:23] Yeah.

[00:39:23] And then the suicide, we're talking several years or.

[00:39:27] About 20 years.

[00:39:28] Wow.

[00:39:28] Okay.

[00:39:29] Okay.

[00:39:30] 20 years.

[00:39:31] 20 years.

[00:39:32] So, yeah, I disclosed.

[00:39:34] And then my parents, I guess they were married for another couple of years.

[00:39:37] And he ended up messing around with the guy and just decided to talk with my mom about, hey, I think I'd like to explore this.

[00:39:46] You know, I've lived.

[00:39:48] I don't know.

[00:39:49] Maybe he was 50 something years old, you know, that time.

[00:39:52] And maybe I'm missing something.

[00:39:54] Maybe this is it.

[00:39:56] And they agreed to get divorced.

[00:39:59] And, you know, he went into the lifestyle.

[00:40:01] And it was really hard to see him do that.

[00:40:04] It was funny because it was at the same time that I really had to make a decision of where I wanted to go in my life.

[00:40:09] I was, you know, recently out of college.

[00:40:11] And I spent most of my time trying to early on fit in and feel like I was okay.

[00:40:19] And then I got into recovery.

[00:40:21] And I spent a lot of time really working on myself and the things that had happened and getting in a steady place.

[00:40:28] Right.

[00:40:28] And at that time that he disclosed, you know, that he wanted to go into the gay lifestyle, I was like, all right, I need a little bit more help on my same-sex attractions that really hadn't been that strong for a period of time.

[00:40:41] Because I also need some help in navigating my father and what he's doing and how that affects me.

[00:40:47] Right.

[00:40:47] It was this really crazy time.

[00:40:48] And that's when I went into a support group for folks that were experiencing same-sex attraction called Living Hope.

[00:40:55] Okay.

[00:40:55] That was after I'd gone through, you know, this 12-step programs, counseling, that small group for childhood sexual abuse.

[00:41:02] I really wanted to hit that stuff first and get to a place where I wasn't so scared and anxious and depressed all the time.

[00:41:08] Right.

[00:41:08] I knew that the same-sex attraction was there.

[00:41:10] It wasn't super active in my life.

[00:41:12] And I thought, okay, I can put this on the back burner a little bit.

[00:41:16] But I did celebrate recovery as well.

[00:41:19] All of them, you know, I really got into it.

[00:41:22] But it was beautiful when I stepped into this group of other folks that knew my story, you know, and other people that had family members that had left their families to go into the lifestyle.

[00:41:33] And that was a big part of my healing journey there, to be able to express all of the experience I was having at that time.

[00:41:40] And, you know, I wanted to really base my attractions solely, specifically for the first time in my life.

[00:41:47] I'd kind of talked about them here and there, but I wanted to spend some extended time on that as well as, you know, seeing what's happening with my dad.

[00:41:55] And so I had to choose, okay, do I want to go into the heterosexual lifestyle or do I want to go in the gay lifestyle?

[00:42:02] I never really had a desire to go into the gay lifestyle, but I had to choose if I was going to have faith that I could have attractions towards women.

[00:42:10] I really liked the idea of that, but I didn't have those.

[00:42:13] And it was a unique experience to be in that support group and to really start to understand who I was as a man, who I was as a child of God, what my identity in Christ was.

[00:42:26] And then to meet somebody in that support group, I met my wife at Living Hope, that group.

[00:42:33] And I'd been there, you know, for three or four years and she had been there for a while too.

[00:42:37] You know, I had shared with guys in my group that I don't even have a desire to kiss a girl.

[00:42:43] And then a couple of years later, this woman did walk into the group that turned my head.

[00:42:48] You know, I want to know her.

[00:42:50] I want to figure out more about who this person is.

[00:42:52] You know, we waited a while and we were both, you know, navigating stuff in our life.

[00:42:57] But then I did.

[00:42:58] I asked her out and knocked on her door and it was a beautiful thing.

[00:43:01] And we got married about a year and a half later.

[00:43:03] And that was just a few months after my dad had left my wife to go in the gay lifestyle.

[00:43:11] And he left his wife.

[00:43:14] Yes.

[00:43:14] My dad left my mom.

[00:43:16] Is that what I said?

[00:43:17] As I was right before I got married, basically.

[00:43:20] And yeah, he came to my wedding, but he was, I don't know.

[00:43:24] He was like a bump on a log.

[00:43:26] He was just not in a good place.

[00:43:27] And he knew, you know, about my attractions and my story with that.

[00:43:32] And, you know, I wanted him to be at my wedding, super excited for me.

[00:43:37] But yeah, he was so absorbed in himself and, you know, having made this big shift in his life.

[00:43:41] And it was probably hard for him to see the family again.

[00:43:46] Right.

[00:43:46] You know, pulled away.

[00:43:47] And maybe he's thinking, well, yeah, this is great.

[00:43:50] This works for Jason.

[00:43:51] You know, good luck.

[00:43:52] It didn't work for me.

[00:43:53] But I wanted in that moment for him to celebrate my marriage.

[00:43:57] You know, I wanted my dad to be there and say, wow, Jason, I see here's something else you're really excited about.

[00:44:02] You know, you're getting married to this woman that you're going to spend the rest of your life with.

[00:44:06] I didn't get that at my wedding.

[00:44:08] He just sat there and I don't even know if we interacted much.

[00:44:13] And then he didn't stay for the reception and just left.

[00:44:17] And at least he came.

[00:44:19] But what an opportunity, you know, to really experience your son and some, you know, milestone with him.

[00:44:27] And I wish that that was a different experience.

[00:44:30] Right.

[00:44:31] Yeah.

[00:44:33] So he knew of your struggles.

[00:44:35] Did you talk about that with him?

[00:44:36] What was his take on it?

[00:44:38] Was he trying to encourage you to pursue them?

[00:44:41] Or did he just understand?

[00:44:44] Or did you not even let him give an opinion on that?

[00:44:48] Yeah.

[00:44:49] Well, again, like I mentioned with the couple interests that I had of, you know, writing a computer program or learning algebra, I would bring something to him.

[00:44:57] It would just kind of fall flat.

[00:44:59] When I was a freshman in college, I had the biggest same-sex attraction experience that I'd had before.

[00:45:06] I've never acted out with guys.

[00:45:08] That's not part of my story.

[00:45:09] I've looked at porn, you know, had a little bit of voyeurism like in a locker room.

[00:45:13] Right.

[00:45:14] In a gym.

[00:45:14] But I've never been physical with another guy.

[00:45:15] But there was a time where I really felt this strong urge to connect physically with a guy.

[00:45:23] I remember being in this one class at school and it felt like electricity was going through my body.

[00:45:29] And I didn't know what to do about it.

[00:45:31] I didn't know who to talk to about it, but I knew my dad had that at that time.

[00:45:37] I had probably learned, you know, midway through high school, you know, that that's kind of where my dad experienced those attractions as well.

[00:45:46] And so I went to him and I said, Dad, I've got these attractions that, you know, I haven't quite had to this degree before.

[00:45:55] And I don't really know what to do about it.

[00:45:58] And he said, yeah, it feels like electricity going through your body, doesn't it?

[00:46:01] And I was like, yeah, I guess it does.

[00:46:03] And that's all he said.

[00:46:04] He said it's all I can remember.

[00:46:06] And I was like, OK, what am I supposed to do with that?

[00:46:10] You know, could you give me some fatherly advice as somebody that's experienced this all your life and, you know, have had to make some hard decisions and, you know, figure out how to not freak out about it and how to live beyond those attractions into what you really would like.

[00:46:27] And they didn't get a whole lot from him.

[00:46:29] So I just I just stuffed it down.

[00:46:32] Right.

[00:46:32] I mean, year of college, I didn't know what else to do.

[00:46:35] It didn't fit with my identity of being the perfect Christian guy that did everything right and pleased people.

[00:46:44] I mean, I just didn't have a place for it.

[00:46:46] Right.

[00:46:46] So I didn't go into the gay lifestyle or pursue intimacy with a man really for two reasons.

[00:46:53] And one was that it didn't fit this frail identity that I had created.

[00:46:57] And the second was I just I inherently knew that it was going to take me to a place that I wouldn't be able to get back from.

[00:47:03] Right.

[00:47:04] So one of the reasons was not a great reason, you know, because it doesn't fit with my identity and I'm scared, you know, so I'm going to run from this big, scary thing.

[00:47:11] You know, that's not you know.

[00:47:13] I mean, I think it protected me and maybe God used that to keep me from going down that road that I think would have been really hard for me.

[00:47:21] But that second reason I think is really valid.

[00:47:24] I didn't know who I was.

[00:47:26] I didn't know, you know, where to go in life.

[00:47:30] And I just thought, yeah, if I give myself over to this, it's going to consume me.

[00:47:36] And I really I really just knew that inherently.

[00:47:40] And I'm glad that I didn't go that direction.

[00:47:43] I mean, there's plenty of people that have and God redeems that and brings them to a place of wholeness and freedom.

[00:47:48] Right.

[00:47:48] But I believe that, you know, God God spared me from that.

[00:47:51] But it did take a long time to to come to a place where I could really acknowledge, you know, the depth of my attractions and, you know, the history of it and be able to express that just like I expressed, you know, experiencing sexual abuse.

[00:48:07] Right.

[00:48:07] Now, have you dug into some of the story behind those attractions?

[00:48:14] Because I know the sexual abuse, even though yours was non-contact sexual abuse.

[00:48:19] I know Doug Carpenter's book, he talks about that arousal template versus desire template.

[00:48:26] And that some of that unhealthy, probably father wound going on between you and your father that definitely left an impact.

[00:48:35] And this father love need that manly love that you wanted and didn't get in healthy ways.

[00:48:47] And that was probably stamped on you.

[00:48:50] And that probably helped develop that arousal template.

[00:48:54] It's extremely common with many men who've experienced sexual abuse as children that, yeah, they have that, even though their desire template is not homosexual, but very heterosexual, where they want to have a wife.

[00:49:13] They want to have children, but they still have this other part of them inside.

[00:49:16] And that dichotomy that they have to struggle through.

[00:49:21] And yeah, you hear tons of stories of that, for sure.

[00:49:25] And some decide to just go with it.

[00:49:27] And some decide to, no, that's not for me.

[00:49:31] And that might be a little part of me inside, but it doesn't have to define me.

[00:49:36] Oh, I mean, all that is spot on, everything you've said.

[00:49:41] I remember, you know, when I went to my dad and shared those attractions, it was at a time when I also really did want to think about being with a woman in a dating relationship.

[00:49:53] Right.

[00:49:54] You know, so what you're talking about, desires and conflict.

[00:49:57] I always think of Joe Dallas' book because it really is the perfect phrase, you know, desires and conflict.

[00:50:02] I wrote a blog post recently where I had actually found my art project that I did that semester where I was in class with this guy where I had this strong, strong arousal towards him.

[00:50:16] And my art project was all about a man and a woman going on a date.

[00:50:20] They were walking down the street and he's leading her to just a really beautiful outdoor cafe where there was dancing.

[00:50:27] And at the end, they embrace and they kiss.

[00:50:30] Right.

[00:50:30] I really thought that was just mysterious.

[00:50:32] I want to be a man that can be have a strong frame for a woman that she can, you know, put her arm in his and just be excited for where he's going to take her.

[00:50:42] Like, I wanted that.

[00:50:43] I really did.

[00:50:44] Right.

[00:50:44] I didn't have those same kind of warm, you know, romantic feelings towards a woman like I did to a man.

[00:50:52] And that was really puzzling.

[00:50:55] Mm hmm.

[00:50:56] I can think of a lot of things that could contribute to that.

[00:51:01] I believe that the biggest driver of unwanted same sex attraction is a belief and feeling of separateness.

[00:51:07] Right.

[00:51:07] And I felt separate from a lot of things.

[00:51:09] You know, I felt separate from my father because of how he treated me and he treated me as something instead of someone so much of the time.

[00:51:18] Also felt separate from him because he was on a bit of a pedestal as a preacher in a small town.

[00:51:23] Right.

[00:51:23] Nobody else just thought the world of him.

[00:51:25] And even other boys would treat me a little bit differently.

[00:51:28] They would kind of put their, you know, white gloves on when they were going to be around me.

[00:51:33] With the preacher's kid.

[00:51:35] Yeah.

[00:51:35] The PK.

[00:51:36] Yeah.

[00:51:36] So I think that also contributed to me feeling, you know, separate.

[00:51:41] And then I felt separate from my body.

[00:51:43] I didn't have a right to, you know, where somebody was going to be touching me.

[00:51:48] And all of those things really led to feeling like I need something outside of myself.

[00:51:55] I need to connect with masculinity.

[00:51:58] I need to go to go and get it.

[00:52:00] Right.

[00:52:01] And thinking of masculinity as something outside of myself is, I think, one of the inherently flawed mindsets that I had that Satan handed me.

[00:52:10] Right.

[00:52:11] Because when I'm going to go out and get it and this is going to make me feel strong, it's going to make me feel a sense of purpose, then I would do almost anything to get that.

[00:52:21] Because I wanted to live life fully.

[00:52:23] And if I needed something from other people, you know, to be able to have that, then, yeah, I was going to go do it.

[00:52:29] And my whole body, I think, was trying to help me out.

[00:52:32] In puberty, I was still focused on the guys.

[00:52:35] They were still a mystery to me.

[00:52:37] Right.

[00:52:37] I was still, you know, looking at different pieces of them and trying to patch it into some, you know, shell around myself so that I could put forth an image of who I thought I needed to be.

[00:52:47] You know, this is my theory.

[00:52:48] So, you know, take it if you like it, leave it if you don't.

[00:52:51] But, you know, those movies where somebody takes a love potion and then the thing they see right after that is what they fall in love with.

[00:52:59] Right.

[00:53:00] I don't know.

[00:53:01] I mean, maybe I'm wrong.

[00:53:01] But I was staring at the guys.

[00:53:04] I was just so curious.

[00:53:05] And they were a mystery.

[00:53:06] And I still was trying to catch up with them, you know, where the rest of the guys, they'd gotten so bored with each other.

[00:53:11] It's like, oh, been around guys all my life, you know, done the guy thing.

[00:53:16] Who are these women that are blossoming into their femininity?

[00:53:19] Right.

[00:53:21] Were you an only child or did you have siblings?

[00:53:24] I had an older sister.

[00:53:26] She was about two and a half years older.

[00:53:27] Yeah.

[00:53:28] But no brothers.

[00:53:29] So, yeah, mystery.

[00:53:31] Yeah.

[00:53:31] It really was a mystery.

[00:53:33] And I think, you know, when all those chemicals went off in my body during puberty, I think they kind of got connected to the male image.

[00:53:40] You talk about that arousal template.

[00:53:42] And it really was the case.

[00:53:44] And if I'm wrong, that's okay.

[00:53:45] But it really seems to make sense to me.

[00:53:48] Right.

[00:53:48] And also, I think, like I said, my whole body was trying to help me out.

[00:53:53] I mean, if I thought that connecting with a guy in any and every possible way was going to give me the thing that I needed, then, yeah, I think my sexual drive just got on board.

[00:54:04] Okay.

[00:54:05] And then, yeah.

[00:54:05] Yeah.

[00:54:05] I mean, we could give him a hug.

[00:54:07] We could talk to him.

[00:54:08] But, you know, maybe if we have sex with him, that's really going to do it.

[00:54:11] You know, then I feel like I have what it takes and that I'm okay and I'm going to be okay.

[00:54:17] and I'm a man, that just makes sense to me when I think back on my story.

[00:54:22] Right, right.

[00:54:23] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[00:54:25] And I think a lot of men can understand and relate to that for sure.

[00:54:29] I know a lot of my stories is very similar.

[00:54:32] But I didn't really want to have sex with a guy.

[00:54:34] You know, if I sat down and just put it on paper, pros and cons.

[00:54:38] Yeah.

[00:54:39] Like, you know, there's some parts of that that, you know, are not really appealing to me.

[00:54:44] I think about how a woman is just made to receive us.

[00:54:48] Right.

[00:54:49] Her anatomy just works a lot better.

[00:54:51] And I like that.

[00:54:52] And I like the idea of two beings that are different coming together to create something really unique.

[00:54:58] I just thought that was a beautiful design.

[00:55:00] I really wanted to explore that and want to give that up.

[00:55:05] Right.

[00:55:05] I know there are a lot of guys out there that it's hard to kind of hold both things openly.

[00:55:11] It's hard to say, gosh, I have these attractions and I want to go that direction so much.

[00:55:18] But I do also don't want to give this up.

[00:55:21] It's hard to be there.

[00:55:23] And sometimes it's easier just to push them down and go get married to a woman, you know, or just to stay single or whatever.

[00:55:31] Right.

[00:55:31] Or to embrace them and, you know, go into the lifestyle.

[00:55:35] It can be easier to do that because we don't have to keep asking ourselves the question, you know, what am I going to do?

[00:55:41] What is my identity?

[00:55:42] Who am I?

[00:55:43] But, you know, I think sometimes it takes more courage to be there in the unknown, to be there in the indecision.

[00:55:52] And if anybody is out there listening to this and they're in a place where, you know, they don't know which direction they want to go.

[00:55:58] They have all of this that's going on with them.

[00:56:01] I'd say just sit there for a bit longer.

[00:56:04] You know, give yourself that time.

[00:56:06] You know, do some healing work.

[00:56:08] You know, talk to somebody that can maybe help to pull apart some of those sensations from the beliefs and the thoughts that are associated with them.

[00:56:17] And do that and allow yourself to do that.

[00:56:19] You know, you're worth it.

[00:56:20] You don't have to just go into the lifestyle or say that you're gay and identify that way because it is a challenge to do that.

[00:56:29] And you have to, you know, face some criticism.

[00:56:31] But it's also can be a relief, too.

[00:56:34] But maybe hold off on that relief.

[00:56:37] And that's a big decision.

[00:56:38] And I'm glad that I did.

[00:56:40] I'm glad that I held out for a lot of years just letting both of those things be up in the air.

[00:56:45] And I do remember one time wanting so bad just to decide that I'm never getting married.

[00:56:52] I remember specifically sitting down and I just had this desire to say, I'm not going to get married because I don't like to wonder if it's possible.

[00:57:03] I don't like to think which way am I going to go anymore.

[00:57:08] I mean, it just wasn't much of an option for me to go into the gay lifestyle.

[00:57:13] Not for the best reasons, like I said.

[00:57:15] It just didn't fit in my identity.

[00:57:19] But it was still hard.

[00:57:21] And I heard God's voice, I believe, you know, speaking to me.

[00:57:26] And I believe the right thing for me at that time was not to make that decision.

[00:57:30] Because I don't believe it was mine to make.

[00:57:33] That's my belief for me in that moment.

[00:57:36] That, no, this would be me kind of playing God to decide that I'm not going to get married.

[00:57:41] Because who knows what God can do?

[00:57:43] And I've learned, you know, since then, it's a lot of fun to believe that maybe anything is possible in life.

[00:57:50] You know?

[00:57:51] And giving that over to God.

[00:57:52] And I actually share with my guys that I coach, I say, you know, go ahead and get excited about what might be possible.

[00:57:59] You know, get really excited about whatever it is, is your biggest, truest desire.

[00:58:05] And let yourself really experience that.

[00:58:08] Let yourself get super energized about it.

[00:58:11] But then give it to God.

[00:58:14] Knowing that he's either going to hand it right back to you and it'll be beautiful or he's going to give you something better.

[00:58:20] But it can be really fun, in the meantime, to get really excited about something.

[00:58:25] You know?

[00:58:26] So I allowed myself to say, well, I don't know if it's possible, but I really would like to get married to a woman.

[00:58:32] And I think it would be really cool for these reasons.

[00:58:37] I would really like to do that.

[00:58:39] I want to, you know, knock on her door and have her, you know, come with me and lead her.

[00:58:44] It would be just a beautiful thing.

[00:58:46] Right.

[00:58:46] And, yeah, I'm blessed to be able to have that experience now, being married and having three kids.

[00:58:53] And I wouldn't trade it for the world.

[00:58:55] But it was really just believing that God wants the best for me and that he really sees me.

[00:59:01] And obviously he created me and he knows what it is that's going to get me most excited and enlivened with life.

[00:59:10] So tell me more about your healing journey.

[00:59:13] You touched on it a little bit.

[00:59:14] Sounds like you got some counseling and so forth.

[00:59:17] But what have you done to overcome the abuse and the also the SSA you've mentioned as well?

[00:59:27] What kind of things have you tried that have been helpful and what things have you tried that were less than helpful or not helpful at all?

[00:59:35] You know, a huge thing was grieving and grieving, you know, with people that cared about me.

[00:59:41] Right.

[00:59:42] That was so powerful.

[00:59:43] And I was afraid to do that big time because I thought if I let myself grieve and just just let go, then I thought that was going to be a black hole that I never came back from, too.

[00:59:56] Does that make sense?

[00:59:57] Oh, absolutely.

[00:59:58] Absolutely.

[00:59:58] But it's so cathartic to feel the feelings, let them out instead of just shoving them down.

[01:00:05] You don't have to fear your feelings, but face your feelings and get them out in healthy ways, whether it's anger or sadness or whatever.

[01:00:14] And, yeah, it is so freeing and so healing to express that.

[01:00:22] And especially grief, like you mentioned, that so much of us had so much childhood taken away from us and grieving what could have been absolutely is something we definitely need to face and deal with and express those emotions.

[01:00:43] And, yes, that can be very healing for sure.

[01:00:47] So I did a lot of that, a lot of grief work just over the fact that I had these desires that I didn't want to have, that I had this experience of abuse that I didn't want to have, that I didn't have the father that I wanted to have, that I didn't have the camaraderie with other guys that I really desired.

[01:01:04] Right.

[01:01:05] And that was probably like the most powerful thing in doing that, having found some people that were really in my corner rooting for me and then doing it alone too.

[01:01:17] I remember I would just sit in my car sometimes because I never knew when something was going to come that I needed to process.

[01:01:24] And I would play a particular song just over and over again because it was triggering some tears.

[01:01:31] And I thought, you know, gosh, this is really good.

[01:01:34] And that happened a few different times where I would just sit and play a song and just allow myself to cry, you know, for 30 minutes or an hour.

[01:01:42] I remember doing that sitting in the parking lot and wondering who was around me, maybe looking in the window.

[01:01:47] But I really enjoyed that.

[01:01:50] The more people that I honestly shared my story with, the more power was taken out of the experiences and the sensations that I was having.

[01:02:00] The more that I was able to say, you know, this is what it was.

[01:02:05] And that started with one guy in particular that was actually my sponsor in a 12-step program.

[01:02:12] And, you know, similar to my counselor, he identified, you know, some patterns in my life.

[01:02:18] And he was able to say, you know, Jason, I think you've experienced sexual abuse.

[01:02:23] And it was one thing to talk to a counselor about it.

[01:02:26] But just another person was a little bit more scary to me and to be able to say, yeah, yeah, I have.

[01:02:35] But he, you know, worked with me and talked with me about what his experience was, you know, so I didn't feel so alone.

[01:02:43] And he helped me to, you know, go through a lot of the steps.

[01:02:47] I did the 12 steps, which was really powerful, like I said, in Al-Anon and in Celebrate Recovery,

[01:02:52] to really get at what were my resentments, what were the harms that were done to me,

[01:02:57] what were the things that were big fears that were keeping me held back,

[01:03:03] and how can I confront the people that have hurt me,

[01:03:07] and how can I, you know, apologize to the people that I've hurt and just own everything.

[01:03:10] And I think a lot of that allowed me to take a greater sense of agency over my own life,

[01:03:15] a lot of that step work and that healing work there,

[01:03:19] just like I've done with husband material, going through a 12-week program with Drew,

[01:03:25] as well as a virtual sex abuse retreat a few years ago.

[01:03:30] Like all of those things were really powerful and giving me a greater sense of ownership of my life and who I am.

[01:03:37] And, you know, doing that inner child work,

[01:03:40] doing the elements of, you know, going back to those past wounds,

[01:03:45] you know, considering my attractions and getting curious about them was really a fun one.

[01:03:50] Right.

[01:03:51] Writing down my fantasy and then what were the longings that I really had there,

[01:03:56] and then looking in the past to see where those longings didn't get met.

[01:03:59] I think that's a really powerful one.

[01:04:01] I know Dr. Nicolosi talks about that a lot.

[01:04:04] Right.

[01:04:05] Okay, well now go back when you're younger and see that younger version of yourself

[01:04:09] and how he really wanted to have camaraderie with other guys.

[01:04:13] One of my types of porn that I've looked at is, you know, guys in an athletic locker room,

[01:04:18] just being exposed and snapping each other with a towel, that type of thing,

[01:04:22] because I wanted to be free.

[01:04:25] I wanted to express, you know, all myself and be seen.

[01:04:28] And I think, you know, when was I not seen for who I was?

[01:04:33] When did I not feel, you know, comfortable, you know, just being myself

[01:04:36] and looking at my childhood self and loving, you know, my five-year-old self,

[01:04:40] my 10-year-old self, and honoring those longings, honoring those things that I really desired,

[01:04:46] but I didn't get.

[01:04:47] And then sharing those vulnerably with other people.

[01:04:51] Right.

[01:04:52] The more that I can do that, the more I know that I'm not alone,

[01:04:55] and I know that people have my back and that we're all in this together.

[01:05:01] But then, man, really believing that God loves me also, that God is the one that sees me.

[01:05:08] Talk about the biggest leg up there, believing that God loved me.

[01:05:13] I'd say I thought that, you know, God was judgmental.

[01:05:18] You know, if God was harsh, if God did care about me, he wasn't going to do anything about it.

[01:05:23] You know, a lot of those things, you know, I had overlaid who my father was, you know, onto God,

[01:05:29] and that didn't do me any favors.

[01:05:31] And I felt like I was really living life on my own,

[01:05:34] and I had to just pull myself up with my bootstraps,

[01:05:37] and I didn't even have any kind of bootstraps, so to speak, to do that with.

[01:05:43] And then when I decided that, no, God is a good God,

[01:05:45] God is a God that loves me and that wants to knock on the door, you know,

[01:05:50] and come in and eat a meal with me, that's the kind of God that is true.

[01:05:55] Then I really believe that he washed over a lot of those things that had so much power over me,

[01:06:01] and I really experienced his power more.

[01:06:04] I can remember a time in a recovery group where I sat around,

[01:06:09] and it was a group of people, and some of them I knew well and some I didn't.

[01:06:13] But I remember, you know, one time during that group,

[01:06:16] feeling this feeling of love, like just overwhelming love,

[01:06:20] receiving it in that group.

[01:06:22] And it was so weird because I honestly wasn't sure that I felt that to that strong sense,

[01:06:29] you know, before in my life.

[01:06:31] And here I am in this, you know, circle of people, you know,

[01:06:34] sharing vulnerably and this feeling, this sense of love,

[01:06:37] almost to that same degree that I felt that, you know,

[01:06:39] feeling of electricity with that guy that I wanted to connect with sexually.

[01:06:44] And the more experiences I had where what was true began to feel true,

[01:06:50] where I could know that I am loved, I could know that in my head,

[01:06:54] I could read it in the Bible that God loves me,

[01:06:57] and I could hear people tell me that they love me.

[01:07:00] But I think a huge part of my healing journey was to be in places where it was just an overwhelming

[01:07:06] evidence, you know, that I really am loved and get to a place where I was open enough to feel it and really believe it.

[01:07:14] The more integrated I get with having my body and my brain kind of all work together to align with the truth,

[01:07:22] that's where I feel less attractions towards guys.

[01:07:25] That's when I feel like the abuse has less power over me.

[01:07:31] When something isn't just seem true, but it actually feels true.

[01:07:37] Right. Absolutely.

[01:07:38] So what are you doing now with your coaching and so forth?

[01:07:43] And what would you like to share about that?

[01:07:46] Yeah.

[01:07:46] So I want guys to know that they're not alone,

[01:07:48] that they have more power than they think they have,

[01:07:51] and that life is full of possibility and purpose.

[01:07:56] I mentioned on another podcast that the thing I was attracted to most in guys was that confident sense of purpose.

[01:08:02] And, you know, there are a couple of things that I want all of my clients to come away with.

[01:08:07] And if they don't experience this, then I feel like I'll have failed.

[01:08:11] But one is the greater sense of just self-agency.

[01:08:14] Like they have ownership of their emotions, their thoughts, their feelings.

[01:08:19] You know, they're the ones that are kind of charting their own course in life.

[01:08:23] And, you know, doing that with Christ and reaching out to him and believing that he is the one that's with them,

[01:08:30] providing them the power.

[01:08:31] But they have a lot of power over their sensations, over their interactions with other folks.

[01:08:36] And then to believe that the best is yet to come.

[01:08:39] You know, that there is a compelling future ahead of them.

[01:08:42] And I was constantly just focused on the present and how I needed to make sure I was going to get by and that things were going to be okay.

[01:08:49] But I want to instill, you know, with my clients that there is something greater that God has in store for them in the future and now, too.

[01:08:57] That when they really enter into that, it makes going through this journey of a feeling that can be so difficult in the grief required for it worth it.

[01:09:07] And you can put a lot more energy into that.

[01:09:09] So I've created my own in 12 week coaching course.

[01:09:13] You can do one on one or as a group.

[01:09:15] And the first module of it is called finding your voice, because for me, that was really the first step is to say, hi, here I am.

[01:09:24] Here's what I went through.

[01:09:26] This is the stuff in my head.

[01:09:27] Here's the sensations that I experience.

[01:09:30] And to be able to know that I'm completely perfect in Christ now.

[01:09:36] I don't have to wait.

[01:09:38] You know, that is part of who I am.

[01:09:39] It's really determining, you know, who is my identity.

[01:09:42] And I have a lot more agency and power than I realize.

[01:09:46] And from that empowered state, you know, then going into what I call honor your story, where you do look at the past.

[01:09:53] You look at the hurts and the hangups and, you know, the harms that were done to you.

[01:09:58] And you befriend your younger self and really work through what are those longings and where weren't they met?

[01:10:04] And how can you understand what those beliefs and thoughts and lies were that came from them?

[01:10:09] And are they serving you or are they not serving you and making an empowered choice to do something different?

[01:10:15] And the last part of the course is called chart your future, where you really get ultra clear on what it is that you want to envision for your life.

[01:10:23] It's not your attractions that are allowed to determine your future or other people that might tell you who you are or what you are.

[01:10:32] You get to decide that.

[01:10:33] And the more that you really get clear on it and get excited about it and partner with Christ and believe that he is delighted to be partnering with you, you know, in this journey and leading you and what he is going to bring about is what is best.

[01:10:49] Then I think that is where healing happens.

[01:10:53] Right.

[01:10:54] Right.

[01:10:55] We do have a comment from our live audience and they say, thank you for sharing your heart and life.

[01:11:03] And I agree with that.

[01:11:05] And we'll have your contact information on the show notes.

[01:11:09] But any final thoughts for that listener out there?

[01:11:12] You are not alone.

[01:11:13] I know, Mike, that's something that you say, I think, every podcast and it can't be said enough that you have great purpose, great possibility for your life.

[01:11:24] And I would love to know you more.

[01:11:27] Absolutely.

[01:11:28] And thank you so much for sharing your story and your ministry and your desire to help men heal.

[01:11:37] Thank you, Jason.

[01:11:39] And we will see you next time on the Healing for Male Survivors podcast.

[01:11:47] If you would like to learn more about my coaching with Polar Live Consulting, where I provide one-on-one coaching and group coaching, both with a focus on healing for male survivors, reach out to me at polarliveconsulting.com.

[01:12:02] That is polar spelled P-O-L-A-R.

[01:12:05] I would love to hear from you.

[01:12:07] I want to hear your story.

[01:12:09] If you would like your story featured on this podcast, contact me via my website.

[01:12:14] If you like this podcast, please rate and review because that's how other people can find me.

[01:12:19] And I really want to spread this message of healing and hope to others.

[01:12:22] And remember, you are not alone.

[01:12:25] Healing is possible.

[01:12:27] And the abuse was not your fault.

[01:12:30] Let me repeat that.

[01:12:31] The abuse was not your fault.

[01:12:35] See you next time on the Healing for Male Survivors podcast.

[01:12:39] A

[01:12:39] Thank you.