45 - Live Interview with Steven Procopio, ground-breaking researcher and therapist specializing in Male Sex Trafficking Survivors

[00:00:03] Welcome to the Healing for Male Survivors podcast. This is a podcast for male survivors of sexual abuse and assault, whether as a child or as an adult. Know that you are not alone and the abuse was not your fault. My name is Mike Chapman. I'm a certified recovery life coach and also a survivor. Let's find hope and healing together.

[00:00:28] Welcome to the Healing for Male Survivors podcast. I'm your host, Mike Chapman. My guest today is Steven Procopio and I'll intro him in a moment. And also we have a live audience with us as well. If you would ever like to join with us live, you can learn more about that at polarlifeconsulting.com slash live.

[00:00:55] And let me read Steven's bio. Steven is a trainer slash consultant slash therapist in working with males with a trauma history. His expertise is in the area of childhood sexual abuse, commercial sexual exploitation slash human trafficking, and other forms of sexual victimization and extensive experience with homelessness and runaway youth. Steven's work in youth services included work as an advocate for the

[00:01:25] adolescent adolescent therapist, director of children.

[00:01:28] And he's a shelter for runaway and homeless youth and homeless youth and a family reunification facilitator. Steven's present professional work is with boys and men with a trauma history. It's like he's stealing a lot of my resume with a focus on childhood sexual abuse, commercial sexual exploitation slash human trafficking and other forms of sexual victimization.

[00:01:51] And he's a trainer slash consultant with the national human trafficking training and consulting center. And he also founded the first freestanding program serving commercially, sexually exploited boys and human trafficked adolescent males in the US.

[00:02:11] Steven's also a member of the United Nations global human trafficking task force, representing the needs of male victims internationally with, uh,

[00:02:23] UNITAS, U N I T A S North America. He's also a graduate of the university of Connecticut school of social work. So welcome to the program, Steven.

[00:02:34] Steven. Thank you so very much. Thank you. So glad you could be here and we will start like we do most weeks is with four questions.

[00:02:44] Now it's time for four questions. That part of the podcast, when we get to know our guest a bit better by asking a few questions, let's go.

[00:02:52] So Steven, what is your favorite food memory?

[00:02:56] Every Christmas, my mother, the great Italian, God rest her soul, the great Italian that she was made the best lasagna ever.

[00:03:05] So every Christmas we couldn't wait to have that meal that she specially made for us.

[00:03:11] Oh, I love homemade lasagna. I like lasagna period, but yes, especially homemade lasagna where someone's taken all the time and all the work to do it.

[00:03:21] And it's so good. Wow. And you, you can tell it's made with love.

[00:03:25] Yes, absolutely.

[00:03:27] That's one of those dishes you can always taste the love.

[00:03:30] Right.

[00:03:31] So what is your favorite Christmas or holiday memory other than that one?

[00:03:38] Well, I would say the, you know, every Thanksgiving and every Christmas, the whole family, I had a very large extended Italian family and holidays were very important.

[00:03:49] So I would say up until the age when I stopped believing in Santa Claus, those holidays brought the best memories.

[00:03:59] The Christmas holidays. Yeah.

[00:04:02] Yeah. Any, any particular memory that you can think of?

[00:04:06] Well, I don't like to, I don't like to age myself. I'm going to have to.

[00:04:11] Christmas of 1957.

[00:04:13] Wow. And what was so special of that year?

[00:04:17] That was when the last time all the family was together. And then after that, you know, unfortunately people would pass away from this or from that.

[00:04:27] So that was the holiday when everybody was less together.

[00:04:31] Right. Yeah. Having Christmas with big family. That's, that's a lot of happy memories. I remember my extended family. Yes, for sure.

[00:04:40] Now, do you have a favorite church or house of worship memory?

[00:04:44] The greater Boston church of spiritualism is my church of choice. A great, great group of people spiritually.

[00:04:52] Absolutely. Any particular event that stands out in your participation there?

[00:04:56] I would say, yeah, we, we have guest speakers.

[00:05:01] And I think the one that I like the most is Dominic Bogue from the UK when he comes over here to visit.

[00:05:08] Wow. Nice. So do you have any favorite scripture verses or any inspirational quote that has helped you on your spiritual journey?

[00:05:17] And what about it speaks to you?

[00:05:21] Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

[00:05:24] Ah, yes.

[00:05:25] That's my favorite one.

[00:05:27] Because as a therapist, I think a lot of people have shame and guilt for their sexual victimization, have intense self-judgment.

[00:05:37] So that's the one that comes most to mind around not judging, not judging oneself.

[00:05:43] Right, right. Exactly. Because, yeah, everyone messes up and then so much of the abuse and exploitation, not our fault, not our fault at all.

[00:05:57] Yes, thank you for that. So we'd like to hear about your story.

[00:06:01] What got you involved with this population?

[00:06:04] I don't know if that's part of your own story or not.

[00:06:06] What brought you to working with this group?

[00:06:09] And what more can you tell me about all of this?

[00:06:13] I know as a survivor of abuse and trafficking myself, I know there's not a lot of people specializing in this area,

[00:06:23] and especially with trafficking, and especially male trafficking survivors.

[00:06:28] So the fact that you hit both, you are one of those unicorns, those rare breeds.

[00:06:33] And I would love to find out what got you into that specific field, what exactly, what work are you doing, what is helpful, and so forth.

[00:06:44] And definitely going to pick your brain.

[00:06:46] So how did you get started in all this?

[00:06:49] Well, several years ago, I had a small side job at the Boston University Graduate School of Social Work in their field education department.

[00:06:59] And there was about 28 of us social workers that were assigned graduate students to supervise them in their field placement,

[00:07:11] their field education component of their education.

[00:07:13] And every year, the dean of the field ed program would have a guest speaker.

[00:07:22] One of us were selected to guest speak on the work they did.

[00:07:27] And this particular year, a woman colleague of mine did a presentation on sex trafficking of girls because she ran a program for girls in Boston.

[00:07:37] You know, I wasn't really that familiar.

[00:07:40] I mean, I was sort of familiar with trafficking, but only based on stories from Law & Order Special Victims Unit.

[00:07:47] Those kind of storylines, mostly that women were kidnapped from another country and brought here or vice versa.

[00:07:54] That was sort of my concept of it.

[00:07:57] Right.

[00:07:58] And so when this colleague of mine was speaking, she said, I'm going to speak to you about girls because that's my ear of expertise.

[00:08:08] But I want to say that, and this is what really got to me.

[00:08:14] It kind of sort of happens to boys.

[00:08:17] We think it's very minimal.

[00:08:19] It only happens to gay boys.

[00:08:22] And they're doing it of their own free will.

[00:08:25] And that's just like, oh, my God.

[00:08:29] And it's not like I could have challenged that because I wasn't working.

[00:08:34] I mean, I was working with sexual abuse folks, males.

[00:08:37] But there was just something about that that just I couldn't wrap my head around it.

[00:08:43] I just couldn't wrap my head around it at all.

[00:08:46] So I took her out to lunch to her most favorite deli to pick her brain and to ask more questions about it.

[00:08:57] And she really she couldn't veer away from her statement that she made about that.

[00:09:04] And we went back and forth.

[00:09:06] And she said, well, I think because she was tired of talking to me and I was picking her brain.

[00:09:12] It was not.

[00:09:13] It was an hour and a half.

[00:09:15] And she wanted to get back to work and whatnot.

[00:09:18] So she said to me, Stephen, if you think it's such an issue, why don't you do something about it yourself?

[00:09:24] Hmm.

[00:09:26] So my dear friend, although she doesn't know I'm her friend, Oprah Winfrey clicked in my mind.

[00:09:31] And I always heard her say, you have to go after your passion.

[00:09:35] So that became my passion to start, you know, doing research of which there was none.

[00:09:42] Right.

[00:09:42] And trying to talk to other people in the Boston community who did trafficking work, who did not support or have an awareness of male victims.

[00:09:51] So it was a five year journey.

[00:09:54] And in that five year journey, I did work with a group in Boston that worked with male teenagers in a drop in center.

[00:10:04] Right.

[00:10:04] And a lot of these young men were street kids.

[00:10:08] So I did a series of focus groups.

[00:10:10] I did a lot of interviews.

[00:10:12] I tried to get data because there was no data on this particular issue.

[00:10:18] No lit reviews did not come up with anything.

[00:10:22] It just did not happen.

[00:10:23] So after a five year journey, I had an organization who I was working with as a non-paid consultant because this was a youth program.

[00:10:35] Right.

[00:10:35] Took me on for a couple of years, gave me some seed money to do further work in the area.

[00:10:41] And then subsequent to that, I started my own program with another organization.

[00:10:45] So with that, I attended conferences in the U.S.

[00:10:50] I began to talk about the project at trafficking conferences.

[00:10:55] And I would get lines of people coming up to me after my presentation.

[00:11:00] Oh, my God.

[00:11:02] We're glad someone's doing something about this.

[00:11:04] What do we do?

[00:11:05] We know it's happening.

[00:11:06] We don't know how to deal with it.

[00:11:08] So one thing led to another.

[00:11:09] So not only did I run my project in Boston, I did a lot of national consultation and spoke at tons of conferences around the country.

[00:11:20] So that was my story about how this got up and running.

[00:11:23] And then, of course, unfortunately, the pandemic hit and everything crashed.

[00:11:27] There was no conference or anything.

[00:11:29] So I would say over.

[00:11:31] So I did some consulting with the U.N., the Global Task Force, and UNITAS, North America, and New York.

[00:11:39] We developed a curriculum to train educators in the New York City school system on how to identify and work with kids who were trafficked.

[00:11:49] And I'm also doing some consulting work in Ottawa, Canada for their Task Force Against Human Trafficking.

[00:11:57] So and then I'm now picking up speed around doing a lot of more virtual conferences or I'm traveling around to different sites now because conferences are beginning to open up.

[00:12:07] So that was a very long answer to your question.

[00:12:12] No, that's wonderful.

[00:12:13] But that's where we're at.

[00:12:15] Right.

[00:12:15] Have you ever gotten in touch with that lady again to change her mind?

[00:12:20] I see her every month at a meeting here in Boston.

[00:12:24] OK.

[00:12:25] She's been redeemed.

[00:12:27] Ah, wonderful.

[00:12:28] Wonderful.

[00:12:29] So, yeah, she was she was with me all the way when I got the program up and running and everything.

[00:12:34] So she is she's clear now that her statement back in the day was not accurate.

[00:12:41] Right.

[00:12:41] So many misconceptions.

[00:12:43] And like you say, the concept of trafficking, you think, OK, it's the foreigners brought in or that kind of thing.

[00:12:50] And they don't think about domestic trafficking being in the U.S., by the U.S., for the U.S.

[00:13:00] So the victims, the buyers, the sellers are all in the U.S.

[00:13:07] It's been going on for decades and decades.

[00:13:10] I mean, my experience happened in the 60s and 70s, very well organized then.

[00:13:15] And I know it goes back quite some time.

[00:13:18] And this is pre Internet days.

[00:13:19] So, yeah, and it happens very frequently.

[00:13:25] But boys don't tell.

[00:13:27] Like in my case, I was sedated, but I know in a lot they are threatened.

[00:13:32] Their families are threatened.

[00:13:34] So, yeah, you don't talk about it.

[00:13:36] Plus, they part of the grooming process, they are convinced that, OK, you are condoning this because, hey, your body's reacting.

[00:13:45] So you obviously like it.

[00:13:47] So, you know, mentally convince these people, these men that they are a boysenoff in cases, that they are active participants, willing participants because their bodies respond.

[00:14:01] And oftentimes it takes well into adulthood before they start realizing, OK, I was trafficked.

[00:14:07] I was abused.

[00:14:08] These were facts.

[00:14:10] It's not just this weird thing that happened.

[00:14:13] A really horrible, violent thing happened.

[00:14:16] And it takes a while before the light bulb goes off.

[00:14:21] And then they can realize it and then start getting help.

[00:14:24] Right.

[00:14:25] Right.

[00:14:26] Exactly.

[00:14:27] What I've learned over the 17 years is that I can do a training and talk to people about my experience specific to my specific work.

[00:14:38] But I always let people know there's always variations on a theme.

[00:14:43] Right.

[00:14:43] So what I'm telling you is a good stepping stone for you to go out there and ask the questions and develop the programs, but also be open to variations on a theme, how boys present to you about their specific experience.

[00:15:01] I always say survivors have a unique brotherhood with one another, but each individual is unique unto themselves based on their own story.

[00:15:12] And that needs to be respected.

[00:15:14] Yes, very true.

[00:15:16] So what are some themes specifically for trafficking?

[00:15:21] I work with a few trafficking survivors.

[00:15:24] I've met a few trafficking survivors at different workshops.

[00:15:27] Not a lot.

[00:15:28] So my interaction with them, with males specifically, I work with a group that's all female survivors.

[00:15:35] I'm the only male.

[00:15:36] What common themes do you find?

[00:15:39] What are the needs?

[00:15:42] And how many are like me?

[00:15:45] Where, yeah, I mean, I was in my 50s before I realized I had been trafficked.

[00:15:52] And then it's like, what resources out there?

[00:15:54] Okay, female, female, female.

[00:15:56] Not much.

[00:15:56] It's like, hope you find out.

[00:15:58] Good luck.

[00:15:59] That's often what I heard.

[00:16:00] So what themes are you noticing?

[00:16:03] How does someone get to the point of getting help?

[00:16:06] So how do the clients find you or are referred to you?

[00:16:10] And what is like the age range that you normally see for all of these males?

[00:16:15] I know you work with teens as well.

[00:16:17] Well, when I was actually running the program, we worked with males from 13 to 24.

[00:16:24] And we had two sets of referral sources.

[00:16:27] Our state child welfare system referred boys to us.

[00:16:31] And we had life coach, what we called life coaches, case managers that worked with them.

[00:16:36] And then we had a street team where we got money from VOCA to go out to the streets to do intervention with kids in the street who were living in the street, who were involved in survival sex and or being pimped out in the street.

[00:16:58] There was more designated referrals from the state child welfare.

[00:17:02] And then there was that open referral system where we just did outreach to try and identify folks that we thought were at risk.

[00:17:12] And one of the major risk factors, obviously, is runaway behavior and homelessness.

[00:17:19] Right.

[00:17:20] Because those are the kids that get most targeted by traffickers.

[00:17:24] So those were the two various issues.

[00:17:28] What I've had to stress, and this is an ongoing for 17 years, I'm getting tired, that this is not about a sexual orientation issue.

[00:17:38] Right, right.

[00:17:39] It's about the abuse of power and control from an offender to a victim.

[00:17:46] Right.

[00:17:46] It is an act of violence.

[00:17:48] Yeah.

[00:17:49] Just like rape, it's an act of violence.

[00:17:51] And it doesn't matter what gender you are.

[00:17:55] It doesn't matter what race you are.

[00:17:57] It doesn't matter what ethnicity you are.

[00:18:00] It doesn't matter if you're gay, straight, bi, or non-binary.

[00:18:05] It just does not matter.

[00:18:07] Right.

[00:18:07] If you're targeted, you're targeted because an offender sees the way by which to target you.

[00:18:14] Right.

[00:18:14] And then because a lot of people still think this is a gay thing.

[00:18:18] Right.

[00:18:19] That it's only gay kids, you know.

[00:18:21] So a lot of the non-gay people that I've worked with remain underground out of fear of being, as the fear of disclosing and then being thought of as gay.

[00:18:34] Right.

[00:18:34] So that's, you know, the double rammy.

[00:18:37] Yeah.

[00:18:37] That those people won't disclose.

[00:18:39] Another reason why men don't disclose.

[00:18:41] Yes.

[00:18:42] They will just not disclose.

[00:18:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:18:44] Other issues is that those men who have disclosed at some point get a lot of pushback from people.

[00:18:54] Well, why did you let it happen?

[00:18:56] You were a guy.

[00:18:57] You should have stopped it.

[00:18:59] Right.

[00:18:59] So that's another factor as to why people won't disclose.

[00:19:05] So what I'm working with now as a therapist is people 18 and over.

[00:19:10] When I get referrals, I don't necessarily get a referral of a trafficking person.

[00:19:17] It usually comes under depression, anxiety, social isolation, intimate partner difficulties.

[00:19:25] And then in the exploration of those factors, there will be more often than not a disclosure of childhood sexual abuse.

[00:19:36] Right.

[00:19:37] And or they will question me when this happened to me by this person, was it sexual abuse?

[00:19:46] So it's a lot of educational stuff.

[00:19:49] Right.

[00:19:49] I've had to tell men as old as 62 years old, that was trafficking you experience.

[00:19:57] And they just had no connection to it whatsoever.

[00:20:00] And it really like after all these years.

[00:20:02] Right.

[00:20:03] I'm 62 years old now.

[00:20:05] This happened to me when I was 14.

[00:20:08] And now you're telling me after 50 years that I was trafficked.

[00:20:12] Yeah.

[00:20:13] You were.

[00:20:14] Yeah.

[00:20:14] I'm sorry to have to say, but that was trafficking.

[00:20:16] And all your years of depression and anxiety came as a result of that abuse.

[00:20:23] So it's a lot of substance abuse because a lot of people were turned to substances to numb the pain and everything.

[00:20:29] Right.

[00:20:29] Exactly.

[00:20:30] Exactly.

[00:20:31] I know I've worked with a survivor.

[00:20:33] He never saw the transaction take place.

[00:20:38] So he never made that connection.

[00:20:41] But it's like family member dropped him off at other person's house.

[00:20:48] Stuff would continue to happen.

[00:20:50] And then the family member kept bringing him back to this person's house and stuff continued to happen.

[00:20:54] It's like, you know, that family member probably knew what was going on.

[00:20:59] And it was probably transactional that they were getting some kind of kickback for putting you in that situation.

[00:21:09] Right.

[00:21:09] And he never thought of it that way.

[00:21:12] It's mind blowing.

[00:21:15] And yeah, yeah, that's most likely trafficked.

[00:21:20] And so many.

[00:21:20] Right.

[00:21:21] Because you don't necessarily see, OK, this person is giving money to this person.

[00:21:25] And it's not always money.

[00:21:27] But if the victim doesn't see the transaction, just somehow I ended up in this place.

[00:21:32] I don't know why.

[00:21:33] But my family members kept taking me to these places.

[00:21:37] And they don't make that connection.

[00:21:39] Like you said, yeah, sometimes it's decades before they even realize, oh, was I trafficked?

[00:21:44] And I think what we also, what also is quite underground is familial trafficking.

[00:21:51] Yes.

[00:21:52] That is happening within the family.

[00:21:54] Yes.

[00:21:54] And we oftentimes, you know what the old dadage is.

[00:21:58] You never know what's going on behind someone's closed doors.

[00:22:01] Right.

[00:22:02] And there's also intergenerational.

[00:22:04] Grandpa was a pimp.

[00:22:06] Grandma was a prostitute.

[00:22:08] Daddy was a pimp.

[00:22:09] Mommy was a prostitute.

[00:22:10] And now I'm being, you know, prostituted, quote unquote, for lack of a better term.

[00:22:16] So it's that intergenerational stuff.

[00:22:18] It's a family business.

[00:22:19] Right.

[00:22:20] And it's so easy to hide because the family can make excuses much more easy because, yeah, they're the ones doing the burping to begin with.

[00:22:32] So, yeah.

[00:22:33] And so it's very easy to not get noticed.

[00:22:37] Yeah.

[00:22:39] Yeah.

[00:22:39] Yeah.

[00:22:40] And that was my story as well.

[00:22:42] Absolutely.

[00:22:42] Absolutely.

[00:22:43] And, you know, I don't know what the statistics.

[00:22:46] I'm not into statistics.

[00:22:49] I don't care what they are.

[00:22:52] Well, how much is family?

[00:22:53] How much is, you know, whatever.

[00:22:54] It doesn't matter to me.

[00:22:56] The only thing I don't want anyone left unheard.

[00:23:01] Yes.

[00:23:01] So, you know, that's why I personally don't get it because I'm always being asked for statistics.

[00:23:08] Well, what percentage of trafficking people are male or.

[00:23:11] Right.

[00:23:12] Well, it's primarily in each group that I've worked with that work with a specific demographic will always say they're at the higher risk than anybody else.

[00:23:24] Right.

[00:23:25] And I reject that.

[00:23:26] And let me tell you why I reject that is because let's say, for example, you know, I'll hear gay groups say it was mostly gay kids.

[00:23:36] I'll hear people of color groups say it's mostly people of color.

[00:23:40] I'll hear the trans community say they're really exploited.

[00:23:44] So if we were to say, if we were to pick a group, like just say trans kids and we discuss that as a narrative, what happens to the non gay boy?

[00:23:57] Right.

[00:23:58] He's not a part of the narrative because he's not trans.

[00:24:01] Right.

[00:24:01] Or a person of color or a gay kid.

[00:24:05] Right.

[00:24:05] So when I do my trainings, I really stress the demographics do not mean anything.

[00:24:13] What what the meaning is, is that in working with boys, regardless of the demographic they fall into, you need to be aware of what risk factors are that may bring them to trafficking.

[00:24:29] Right.

[00:24:29] Right.

[00:24:29] So that's my biggest gripe with the trafficking community.

[00:24:33] They're very politicized.

[00:24:34] And so many research statistics and so forth, they say, oh, no, we're just going to focus on females because males aren't a bigger problem.

[00:24:46] And no one's really concerned about the males.

[00:24:48] So we're going to focus on the females.

[00:24:50] OK, so how many are you overlooking?

[00:24:52] Just by not even trying to look, then they're realizing, OK, how much it is hidden.

[00:25:00] One recent statistic, it's probably in the trafficking world, it's close to 50, 50 females and males for survivors.

[00:25:07] And another thing that females can also be sellers and they can be buyers.

[00:25:16] Yeah.

[00:25:17] And that's a huge misconception.

[00:25:20] Yes.

[00:25:20] That's an area that never gets discussed.

[00:25:23] Right.

[00:25:24] Right.

[00:25:24] People don't want to hear that women are behind this as well.

[00:25:28] Right.

[00:25:29] As offenders, as pimps, as traffickers.

[00:25:31] Familial trafficking.

[00:25:33] Yeah.

[00:25:33] Moms will traffic their children almost as much.

[00:25:36] I think it's less than half, but not much less than half.

[00:25:41] Right.

[00:25:41] That it's female family members as well as male family members who are trafficking their family members.

[00:25:48] Yeah, it's fascinating.

[00:25:50] So what kind of therapies are you using with your clients?

[00:25:54] Is it just talk therapy?

[00:25:55] Are you using anything else?

[00:25:58] And it sounds like it's a lot of advocacy work, social work, getting their needs met and so forth.

[00:26:04] So what do you do when you come across a quote unquote average male trafficking survivor?

[00:26:11] Well, basically what I'm just doing now is talk therapy.

[00:26:14] But depending on the need of the individual, if I feel he's ready for group work, to be a part of a group, to do group therapy, I'll refer him accordingly when I feel like he's open.

[00:26:29] When he's far long enough where he could handle not only his story, but that of others.

[00:26:35] Right.

[00:26:35] And that he's safe enough to be able to be verbal in front of other people.

[00:26:42] Right.

[00:26:42] Some men that, you know, I have none that are not trafficking, but adult survivors of sexual abuse, when they've done groups, sometimes have got overly triggered listening to other people's stories.

[00:26:55] So I really want, I really need to be sensitive to that.

[00:26:59] And then if there's other kinds of supportive services that I think might be helpful, refer them accordingly.

[00:27:06] Right.

[00:27:06] I have them do a lot of reading on books related to the topic, because especially if they're alone and don't have anybody besides me to talk to, that there's some camaraderie and brotherhood and reading about other people's stories.

[00:27:21] And it's safe because they don't have to be safe because they don't have to see anybody.

[00:27:24] They can close their bedroom door and read the book and, you know, come and talk to me about it from session to session.

[00:27:31] So I think a lot of the work is around dealing with the shame and guilt and self-forgiveness and how to do self-forgiveness.

[00:27:41] And I give them homework every week that they have to do one self-nurturing activity per week, at least.

[00:27:50] Oh, so what are some of the self-nurturing activities you prescribe?

[00:27:55] Well, one guy I just talked to today, he loves to golf, but he hasn't been golfing in a long time.

[00:28:01] So his wife, because he he's a school teacher, so his wife works all year round.

[00:28:07] He's home with the kids on, you know, during the week.

[00:28:11] So she's having a cousin of hers come over on Friday and babysit so he can go golfing.

[00:28:17] So he's going to get out there and start golfing again.

[00:28:20] And he was a trafficking survivor as well.

[00:28:22] But then a combination of both.

[00:28:25] Yeah.

[00:28:25] OK.

[00:28:26] And so, you know, I encourage people, you know, to get to the gym if they like going to a gym, go see a movie, go for a hike in nature.

[00:28:37] Sure.

[00:28:37] We're in Boston, so we have, you know, the Atlantic Ocean right here.

[00:28:42] Oh, right.

[00:28:42] Yes.

[00:28:42] We have beaches everywhere.

[00:28:44] So, you know, just take a nice walk on the beach.

[00:28:47] I'm in, you know, don't tell anybody, but I'm a Ben and Jerry's ice cream addict.

[00:28:54] Hey, you're speaking my language.

[00:28:56] Yes.

[00:28:56] So, you know, go out for an ice cream cone.

[00:29:00] You know, little things like that just to nurture the self.

[00:29:03] Because sometimes people just fall into not taking care of themselves.

[00:29:07] Right.

[00:29:08] And having someone encourage that.

[00:29:11] We call it self-care.

[00:29:13] And that's one thing that goes to the wayside.

[00:29:16] And we often were not taken care of.

[00:29:19] So we now need to be the caretakers for ourselves.

[00:29:24] And, yeah, do those special things for us and those little boys inside of us.

[00:29:30] For sure.

[00:29:31] Yeah.

[00:29:31] I mean, that's something we all need to do for ourselves.

[00:29:34] Whether we're survivors or not, we've got to do more around work-life balance.

[00:29:39] Right.

[00:29:40] We live in a crazy world and we just need to take care of ourselves.

[00:29:45] Yes, for sure.

[00:29:46] And have control over that.

[00:29:48] I'm not telling you anything you don't know.

[00:29:51] Right.

[00:29:51] Survivors have control issues.

[00:29:53] So much of their control is taken away from that.

[00:29:57] And a lot of, you know, these activities that I have people do is to feel like they have control.

[00:30:05] Okay, Joey, you can play golf now on Friday.

[00:30:09] Right.

[00:30:09] You have control of that.

[00:30:11] Yeah.

[00:30:11] And that's your day for you.

[00:30:13] Giving them permission to do so.

[00:30:15] And sometimes it takes somebody else.

[00:30:17] It's like, no, you have permission to do this.

[00:30:19] And I know part of it for abuse survivors and trafficking survivors, we get that people-pleasing mode.

[00:30:27] That codependency.

[00:30:28] We're trying to please those other people and not think at all about ourselves.

[00:30:33] Because we think so poorly of ourselves that my needs are not important.

[00:30:38] The other people's needs are more important than my own.

[00:30:40] So I need to make sure I'm taking care of all these other people, but at the expense of not taking care of myself.

[00:30:49] Right.

[00:30:49] Self-care is important.

[00:30:50] Yes, for sure.

[00:30:53] Wonderful.

[00:30:53] So what else can you tell me about how you work with this population?

[00:30:58] It sounds like you have, like this school teacher.

[00:31:01] How did he come with you?

[00:31:03] Was it repressed or was it that, oh, he put these things together?

[00:31:08] Oh, that was trafficking?

[00:31:10] Oh, crap.

[00:31:11] You know, how did that come about?

[00:31:14] His wife found me and she called me and she was looking for a therapist for her husband because he had disclosed.

[00:31:24] Okay.

[00:31:25] And they have two small children, a boy, three, and a girl, three months.

[00:31:30] And, you know, all of a sudden just disclosed to her.

[00:31:35] So I'm registered with social work services here in Massachusetts and nationally with psychology today and my information is on that.

[00:31:45] So she found me through psychology today.

[00:31:48] Wow.

[00:31:48] She was very, very cautious.

[00:31:50] He was very emotionally fragile as a result of the disclosure.

[00:31:56] Sure.

[00:31:57] And he wasn't working because he finished his school year because, you know, because he was a school teacher.

[00:32:02] So in the first session, he invited her for his safety.

[00:32:07] He invited her to be in the session with him in order to check me out.

[00:32:12] He wasn't sure if he wanted a male therapist.

[00:32:15] Right.

[00:32:16] I was the same way.

[00:32:17] Yep.

[00:32:17] You know, and he wanted to check me out in a safe way.

[00:32:22] So it was he and his wife and his three-month-old daughter who has the first name of my mom.

[00:32:30] So we talked about that a little bit.

[00:32:32] And I love little kids anyway.

[00:32:34] So I think one of the things that impressed him is, you know, okay, let me talk to your daughter.

[00:32:40] Come on, bring her up to the screen.

[00:32:42] And I would talk to her and she would laugh and everything.

[00:32:44] So a lot of my initial work with people is I don't dive into anything.

[00:32:50] It's just let's talk about what brings you to me.

[00:32:54] How are you feeling about this?

[00:32:55] You know, I do a general interest conversation.

[00:32:59] What are some of your hobbies?

[00:33:01] What was the last movie you seen?

[00:33:02] So just general chit-chat like you would have over a drink with somebody, you know.

[00:33:07] Right.

[00:33:07] And that's usually how I, so just to bring down the stress intention of the individual.

[00:33:13] Right.

[00:33:13] And then just ask what it is that they're looking for, what they needed, what they would need.

[00:33:19] And then I tell them how I work.

[00:33:21] I tell them what my style is.

[00:33:23] I'm absolutely firm when I say to them, you're the pilot.

[00:33:27] I'm the co-pilot.

[00:33:30] You need to drive this plane and I will help you out.

[00:33:35] Right.

[00:33:35] And you turn to me when you need to.

[00:33:38] And so I make sure, excuse me, that they have enough sense of control over the dialogue.

[00:33:47] That being said, I always say to them, you don't need to let me know the details if you don't want to discuss the details.

[00:33:56] Right.

[00:33:57] The only thing I need to know is how you're living your life, Dave.

[00:34:00] How are you doing with your depression?

[00:34:02] Let's talk about the depression.

[00:34:04] Let's talk about the anxiety.

[00:34:05] Let's talk about Al-Anon.

[00:34:07] Let's talk about AA.

[00:34:09] Let's talk about other supports we can get to help you deal with various things.

[00:34:14] If I think that depression is really bad, we talk about medication or anxiety.

[00:34:19] And a lot of them are on antidepressants or anxiety medication because they're really overloaded.

[00:34:27] You know, it's a lot about gaining control over your life day by day and doing self-nurturing activities.

[00:34:37] And then I weave in the conversation.

[00:34:41] And then every so often they'll come out and have a story that they want me to hear about an experience that they had.

[00:34:49] And then I know they're ready to have that specific conversation at that specific session.

[00:34:56] Right.

[00:34:57] And then I just leave it at that.

[00:34:59] We deal with that story.

[00:35:00] And then the next time, you know, I always say to them, where would you like to go today with your session?

[00:35:07] You tell me.

[00:35:08] Right.

[00:35:08] And that's pretty much how I leave it.

[00:35:11] Wonderful.

[00:35:12] Now, for those youths coming out of trafficking, what kind of resources do they need?

[00:35:21] I mean, sometimes because some are homelessness, so they need housing.

[00:35:25] What are the needs and how are you able to help fill those needs or refer them out?

[00:35:33] So what common things do you see?

[00:35:35] Well, in Massachusetts anyway, with the Department of Children and Families, the state child welfare, they are now mandated to work with youth that are trafficked up to the age of 22.

[00:35:50] Now, when I first started out working with DCF, they had the right of refusal.

[00:35:56] If they didn't feel like someone was not cooperating, they could drop the case.

[00:36:01] But now they can no longer do that.

[00:36:05] They are mandated to work with trafficked youth or kids at high risk for trafficking until they're 22.

[00:36:16] So there's no longer any right of refusal or you can't drop kids anymore.

[00:36:21] So within the state system, you know, social workers will do assessments on the needs of the kids.

[00:36:30] Can they stay in their home?

[00:36:31] Do they need to go into foster care?

[00:36:34] Do they need to go into residential?

[00:36:37] What kind of educational programs do they need?

[00:36:40] All the six years I worked with youth, I only had one kid that graduated high school.

[00:36:44] Because they were not able to function within a regular classroom as regular public school classrooms are set up.

[00:36:55] That makes sense, yes.

[00:36:56] So there was always that need for what are we going to do for an educational program for these kids.

[00:37:05] That was the big thing.

[00:37:06] And then also employment.

[00:37:09] What does one do for employment when they're so traumatized and can't function at a regular job?

[00:37:16] Right.

[00:37:16] So there was all the Massachusetts Rehabilitation Association.

[00:37:22] Each state has its own rehabilitation.

[00:37:24] Right.

[00:37:25] State rehabilitation.

[00:37:26] I always found working with them quite good because they worked with such people.

[00:37:33] You know, there was educational programs and there were...

[00:37:36] What I really liked about them is that they had job coaching.

[00:37:40] So the job coach would go to your job with you and be there while you were being trained and support you until you're up and running with your job.

[00:37:50] And then they would exit.

[00:37:51] And if a problem occurred again, they would be called back in to work with you.

[00:37:55] So there was a lot of employment supports through mass rehab.

[00:38:00] Right.

[00:38:01] Right.

[00:38:02] I know I've worked with a lot of disabled people as well, and they go through the rehabilitation system as well.

[00:38:08] Yeah.

[00:38:08] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because, yeah, I mean, those life skills, they've got street smarts for surviving on the streets and so forth.

[00:38:16] But just the regular life skills in interacting in customer service and so forth in the quote unquote normal society.

[00:38:27] Yeah, I'm sure there's a bit of a learning curve and they've got to unlearn their habits and also deal with the triggers because they will get triggered because you get triggered at work.

[00:38:39] And how do you deal with those things?

[00:38:43] And I have a hard time doing that myself if I get triggered.

[00:38:47] But knowing what my resources are and knowing if I do get triggered, OK, what can I do while I'm at work?

[00:38:55] Who can I contact?

[00:38:57] And having those resources ready to go.

[00:39:01] So, boom, I know.

[00:39:03] But it took time to get there and get me in a place to realize, yeah, this is not a good.

[00:39:08] I'm getting triggered.

[00:39:10] OK, I need to deal with this and get help so I can continue on.

[00:39:15] But, yeah, there's a learning curve with that as well.

[00:39:19] So that's wonderful that you're working with those agencies, state agencies and local agencies as well.

[00:39:25] Now, with your team, is it just you or do you have other people that you work with?

[00:39:29] It sounds like you've got different agencies that you kind of cooperate with.

[00:39:33] Yeah, there's a there's a team of different agencies that come together monthly, you know, share resources and information.

[00:39:40] Right.

[00:39:40] So I'm working independently now.

[00:39:43] But when I was running the program, you know, clearly there were various teams of people.

[00:39:50] Right.

[00:39:51] That we worked with.

[00:39:52] Yeah.

[00:39:52] Right.

[00:39:53] Based on a continuum of care.

[00:39:55] Right.

[00:39:56] So what are areas that you've tried different programs you've tried that have not been successful?

[00:40:05] What hasn't worked that you've tried?

[00:40:08] Housing.

[00:40:08] Housing.

[00:40:10] And how so?

[00:40:11] There isn't any.

[00:40:13] Oh, yeah.

[00:40:14] There's just not enough beds for programs and so forth.

[00:40:17] Right.

[00:40:17] No, there's just no housing.

[00:40:19] Yeah.

[00:40:20] Yeah.

[00:40:21] I know mental health field as well.

[00:40:23] So much got decentralized in the last 20 years.

[00:40:29] And so in state hospitals, so many of them closed.

[00:40:32] So now it's all privatized.

[00:40:33] But then there's no beds and what insurance will pay for and won't and so forth.

[00:40:38] So, yeah.

[00:40:39] And that's led to homelessness and so many other problems that there's.

[00:40:45] Yeah.

[00:40:45] There's no resources.

[00:40:47] So what do you do when you find someone who is facing homelessness?

[00:40:53] And where do you where do you put them?

[00:40:57] Just find shelters or?

[00:40:59] Yeah.

[00:41:00] They have to go into the shelter system.

[00:41:01] Now, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where Harvard is located, the Harvard students have a program called Y2Y.

[00:41:12] Y2Y, it's a shelter in a church across the street from the main campus of Harvard.

[00:41:18] And in the basement, they made, you know, an overnight shelter program there.

[00:41:24] It's quite beautiful.

[00:41:25] It's quite nice.

[00:41:27] They can do their laundry there.

[00:41:29] They've got computers there, you know, to stay in touch with computers.

[00:41:33] They get their food.

[00:41:34] They get the bed.

[00:41:35] They have medical personnel come in.

[00:41:37] So it's a great program, but it's limited.

[00:41:40] It only can take so many people.

[00:41:42] Right.

[00:41:42] Right.

[00:41:43] You know, they do a great job, but like any shelter, there's just very limited people.

[00:41:50] Right.

[00:41:50] Now, do you see still a different percentage as far as services for females versus services for males?

[00:41:58] Is it still quite inequitable or are you seeing more and more services?

[00:42:06] There's definitely much more for women and girls.

[00:42:09] Much, much more.

[00:42:10] And in Massachusetts, we have several shelter programs specific for sex traffic, women and girls.

[00:42:18] Right.

[00:42:18] Group homes that have been developed.

[00:42:21] Are you seeing a shift where more and more resources are being, at least considering males?

[00:42:29] No.

[00:42:29] Or really?

[00:42:31] Wow.

[00:42:31] You know what?

[00:42:32] I have to.

[00:42:33] I don't know if I'm it's OK to do this, but Dan Carlson.

[00:42:38] Oh, yes.

[00:42:39] I have not looked at chat at all.

[00:42:41] Thank you for that reminder.

[00:42:42] Sure.

[00:42:42] And again, if you want to be anonymous, you can.

[00:42:48] We'll only say your name if you actually put it in the comment itself.

[00:42:52] Dan is saying remaining underground.

[00:42:54] Exactly.

[00:42:55] Also, the discovery of sexual abuse came out only with time after depression and deadened mental health issues decades later.

[00:43:06] And thank you for doing this work.

[00:43:08] Yes.

[00:43:09] And then Dan is saying, what was the term you used?

[00:43:14] Survival sex.

[00:43:15] What did you mean by that?

[00:43:17] OK.

[00:43:17] Well, survival sex is what people will engage in sexual activity where they get paid as a way to survive.

[00:43:32] Right.

[00:43:33] Make ends meet.

[00:43:33] Being on the street.

[00:43:34] So they get their food.

[00:43:36] You know, they have food money.

[00:43:38] They might get enough money where they can get a hotel room for a couple of nights and get off the street.

[00:43:43] Right.

[00:43:44] So different things like that.

[00:43:46] It's all about surviving homelessness or being a street kid.

[00:43:52] And that's like one component of it.

[00:43:55] I did have a young man who was 16 who had a brother who was 12.

[00:44:02] And his mom was a banker and his father was an airline pilot for one of the major airlines.

[00:44:11] And the father walked out on the family.

[00:44:15] And after he walked out of the family, the mother came down with breast cancer and had to leave her job.

[00:44:22] So no money was coming in.

[00:44:23] So my client went out and did survival sex to help support the family.

[00:44:29] Wow.

[00:44:29] Like that's another component.

[00:44:32] So it's going out there and having sex with others for pay in order to survive your particular situation.

[00:44:42] Right.

[00:44:43] Yeah.

[00:44:43] And so that's borderline abuse, trafficking.

[00:44:46] But it's like that one situation, it's like they were their own seller.

[00:44:52] Yeah.

[00:44:53] So, yeah.

[00:44:54] Yeah.

[00:44:55] Very sticky, but a lot of overlap, I'm sure.

[00:44:58] And Dan added that oftentimes payment is not always money.

[00:45:05] It can be in-kind services or buying you food or giving you a place to sleep or drugs or a bus ticket or whatever.

[00:45:14] Yeah.

[00:45:15] It's not always cash as a transaction.

[00:45:19] Right.

[00:45:20] And let's see.

[00:45:21] And also, Dan saying also for himself, he was labeled as homosexual.

[00:45:27] Right.

[00:45:27] Even though, yeah, it was never his choice.

[00:45:30] But he got that label thrown on to him.

[00:45:33] And this is what I mentioned before, that people think that this is just a gay thing.

[00:45:37] Right.

[00:45:38] So if you're victimized by a male offender, you're considered to be gay.

[00:45:46] Because people don't have any larger narrative than that, that it doesn't matter what demographic you're in or you fall into.

[00:45:54] It can happen to anybody under very difficult circumstances.

[00:45:58] That's the problem.

[00:45:59] I've done trainings where I've said that.

[00:46:02] I've stressed that this is not a gay thing, that this can happen to anybody.

[00:46:08] Right.

[00:46:09] And I talk about my clients when I was working a program, crossed every sexual orientation, every gender identification, every race, every ethnicity.

[00:46:19] Right.

[00:46:19] And I brought that to me because that's a part of what I did.

[00:46:23] And I told people that invariably I will get somebody that comes up to me and say, well, I'm so glad what you're doing for the gay kids.

[00:46:31] And I'm thinking, hello, didn't you hear me?

[00:46:35] You know, you're not hearing me.

[00:46:37] You know, but people just get stuck there.

[00:46:40] Right.

[00:46:41] Definitely.

[00:46:42] So, oh, and Dan also says, yeah, I might not be gay, but I was conditioned to enjoy sex with men.

[00:46:48] And that can be very confusing.

[00:46:50] And I know a lot of trafficking survivors and abuse survivors have that same thing.

[00:46:57] That, yeah, it's very confusing and that it's hard to really understand what you do like and don't like because that abuse was forced upon you.

[00:47:14] So you didn't have a chance to make a choice.

[00:47:18] Yes.

[00:47:18] And so whether I would have grown up straight or would have grown up gay, don't know.

[00:47:25] Just a big confusing mess.

[00:47:27] And for a long time, I was personally more asexual than anything.

[00:47:32] But now happily married, have two children.

[00:47:36] Still a lot of confusion.

[00:47:37] And I hear that so often with survivors.

[00:47:41] So that's very common.

[00:47:42] Do you find that as well?

[00:47:43] Yes, I do.

[00:47:44] You know, many non-gay men that I have, you know, share that confusion will sometimes step out of their marriage or their relationship with women for hookups with men.

[00:47:57] And I discuss that as trauma bonding.

[00:48:01] Right.

[00:48:02] Because you were conditioned for that.

[00:48:03] You were socialized for that.

[00:48:05] And what it's important for you to know is that your social, psychological, sexual development was interrupted.

[00:48:16] The flow of your social, psychological development was taken away from you.

[00:48:24] And it was, you were victimized.

[00:48:27] And that's what, that's, that's the conditioning you fell into.

[00:48:33] And I also discuss that with the sex with, same sex with condition to enjoy it.

[00:48:42] Right.

[00:48:43] What people don't know is that there's the physiological response to the sex act, which is not the same thing as what's being done to you.

[00:48:55] The physiological response of having an orgasm might feel nice.

[00:49:01] It might feel good.

[00:49:02] But it doesn't mean it was appropriate to abuse you.

[00:49:06] Right.

[00:49:07] And it doesn't mean that you're gay.

[00:49:09] It doesn't mean that you like, you know, that you like the circumstances by which.

[00:49:14] That's how our bodies were created.

[00:49:18] So you touch certain areas, you'll get a physiological response.

[00:49:22] And whether that touch was good or bad or neutral.

[00:49:26] That, yeah, that your body responds.

[00:49:29] So, any final thoughts for the listeners out there?

[00:49:37] Well, you know what, I think I, you know, for people in, I have to say, I'm impressed with how far Massachusetts has come along and the state of Connecticut.

[00:49:51] Oh, yeah.

[00:49:51] Which is my home state with their Department of Children and their state child welfare.

[00:49:57] Now, if, you know, if something's happening to a person under the age of 18, it really needs to get reported to state child welfare.

[00:50:07] Let them step in to do assessments and whatnot.

[00:50:10] If you're living in, and I do get calls from people in other states where there's absolutely nothing available or they're not sure what's available.

[00:50:21] I really encourage them to call their local rape crisis center.

[00:50:26] Right.

[00:50:27] And if anybody's going to have any information or any suggestions, it would be your local rape crisis center that would be able to refer you accordingly.

[00:50:38] Right.

[00:50:40] Wonderful.

[00:50:40] Wonderful.

[00:50:41] So, what are your plans moving forward in your career?

[00:50:47] Are you going to stick with this?

[00:50:49] Are you going to expand?

[00:50:50] Are you going to consult more?

[00:50:51] What are your plans in the near future?

[00:50:54] That's interesting you asked me that question because I'm going through now a process of self-evaluation of my next steps.

[00:51:04] Oh.

[00:51:05] Yeah.

[00:51:05] Because this has been many years of doing this work and I'm trying to decide next steps for me for 2025.

[00:51:15] Wow.

[00:51:15] So, you're actually thinking about that.

[00:51:18] So, I'd love to have you back on and you can let me know what you decide.

[00:51:21] I'll let you know.

[00:51:22] Yeah, exactly.

[00:51:23] So, yes, that's wonderful.

[00:51:24] It was my pleasure.

[00:51:26] Thank you so much for coming on this episode, Stephen.

[00:51:30] So, glad you were here and it's wonderful the work you're doing with male abuse survivors and the huge need for male trafficking survivors that you're working with that population.

[00:51:45] Thank you so much for all the work you do.

[00:51:47] Thank you so much and thank you for the participants that came today.

[00:51:51] I appreciate it.

[00:52:20] Thank you.

[00:52:25] Thank you.

[00:52:53] Thank you.

[00:52:55] Thank you.

[00:52:56] Thank you.