Coaching Chaos and Leadership Lessons For Everyone

[00:00:00] John Lennon, when he was a little kid that had an assignment of what he want to be when

[00:00:03] you grow up and he said I want to be happy.

[00:00:06] And then his teacher said I don't think you understand the assignment and his mom

[00:00:10] said I don't think you understand life.

[00:00:12] The following is a presentation of Hobson Media.

[00:00:16] Woohoo!

[00:00:17] Anybody care with this guy, thanks?

[00:00:20] No!

[00:00:25] This is the Church Pew Sports Podcast, featuring a group of pastors delivering bombastic

[00:00:30] takes on sports, life and faith.

[00:00:33] I knew it was possibility to see it in real time.

[00:00:36] Holy can Holy, this is crazy.

[00:00:38] Take a knee.

[00:00:39] This game's all about scoring points guys, we got a squash and foot.

[00:00:42] Lennon Ear.

[00:00:43] These are some of the best questions I've got to have to tell you that straight up.

[00:00:47] What was that special?

[00:00:49] As the Church Pew Sports Podcast begins.

[00:00:52] It's more like a baseball bat than the kneecaps.

[00:00:54] That man next to you is somebody that gots to have it today.

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[00:00:59] We got now.

[00:01:00] Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.

[00:01:03] And with that we welcome you in to Church Pew Sports.

[00:01:05] Great to have you with us.

[00:01:06] Thanks for subscribing and hopefully sharing the link with other sports fans in your world

[00:01:11] as we continue on this journey of connecting sports to faith and life.

[00:01:15] And today is kind of a unique conversation.

[00:01:18] First of all, it's been a while since on this podcast.

[00:01:23] It's just been you and me, Paul.

[00:01:25] So Bill Hobson here along with Paul Miller.

[00:01:28] And normally we have a few other voices that chime in and join us.

[00:01:31] But just the two of us today.

[00:01:33] So for all of you who were big fans of Statler and Waldoor, which are the two old guys

[00:01:39] in the balcony for the Muppets, that's today, right?

[00:01:43] A beevison but hey.

[00:01:44] Well, yeah, there's find some other great pairings that you really enjoyed over the years.

[00:01:49] And we're going to take this conversation in a, I think kind of a unique direction today.

[00:01:54] Talking about the coaching carousel and about the leadership culture that I don't know

[00:02:00] if it's being upended or if it's being cemented or just confusing because in the coaching

[00:02:08] world at every level, collegiate and professional, we are seeing some surprising things happen.

[00:02:15] So when you think about coaching carousel and culture, what's your starting point?

[00:02:22] Well, hey, for me, first of all, it's good to be back in the studio.

[00:02:25] I've been out and about and Zoom is doing my thing.

[00:02:27] Zoom is okay but in person is way better.

[00:02:29] Yeah, for me, it starts with the rivalry, right?

[00:02:32] Like there's been a little bit of stuff going on at Michigan.

[00:02:35] Yeah.

[00:02:36] There's been a little bit of stuff going on at Ohio State and they're both like the narrative

[00:02:41] around their coaching structures and in their football programs.

[00:02:46] And in the case of well, in Ohio State's case too, but in Michigan's case, it's slipped

[00:02:51] out into basketball as well and everything else.

[00:02:54] And so there's a lot to talk about just there.

[00:02:57] So that's for sure my stepping off point.

[00:02:59] And you take all of that and you roll it over into the context of the NIL and transfer

[00:03:06] portal world.

[00:03:07] And it's hard to tell what came first.

[00:03:10] Coaching carousel chaos, which is probably going to be the name of this episode.

[00:03:16] Or did that come first or did the professionalization of collegiate sports come first?

[00:03:22] Or is it kind of a confluence of everything at once converging?

[00:03:27] But when you see legends like Nick Sabin for his littlest I enjoy his run at Alabama,

[00:03:36] nobody can argue with the fact that they should name the national championship trophy,

[00:03:40] the Sabin trophy or something.

[00:03:41] I mean, it's kind of like the Lombardi thing.

[00:03:45] So when he gets out, and I'd like to think that it was because my Wolverines beat it,

[00:03:49] but that's obviously not the case.

[00:03:51] They broke.

[00:03:52] Yeah, that's what we look like.

[00:03:53] They broke Sabin.

[00:03:54] We'd like to think that.

[00:03:56] That's really not it.

[00:03:57] What broke Sabin is what he shared in a congressional testimony just this week.

[00:04:05] Why did you get out of coaching and what do you see that has caused so many legends to

[00:04:10] either leave the game or move to the professional ranks or whatever?

[00:04:15] Here's Sabin's response.

[00:04:17] I've been for all these years, 50 years of coaching no longer existing college athletics.

[00:04:23] So it's always about developing players.

[00:04:26] It was always about helping people move more successful in life.

[00:04:30] My wife even said to me we'd have all the recruits over on Sunday with their parents

[00:04:35] for breakfast and she would always meet with the mothers and talk about how she was

[00:04:41] going to help and impact their sons and how they would be well taken care of.

[00:04:47] And she came to me like right before I retired and said why are we doing this?

[00:04:51] And I said, what do you mean?

[00:04:53] She said all they care about is how much you're going to pay them.

[00:04:55] They don't care about how you're going to develop them which is all what we've always

[00:04:59] done.

[00:05:00] So why are we doing this?

[00:05:02] Right.

[00:05:03] Yeah.

[00:05:04] Now, I know that we could dive deeply into, I'm sure your motives were always pure, that

[00:05:10] you were always just there to see how you can develop kids.

[00:05:13] Well his track record is pretty good in developing players at the very least.

[00:05:18] So when you no longer have the ability to sit in the living room with a player or prospect

[00:05:24] or recruit and say you're going to have to earn your playing time at my school, Mr.

[00:05:29] Nothing's guaranteed.

[00:05:31] Nobody gets to just walk into a starting role and you know you look at Archmaning who

[00:05:35] is a third string quarterback, right?

[00:05:37] He's having to earn his time even though he comes from a famous pedigree.

[00:05:41] I think I can understand when given the option why Sabin would say, you know what, I've

[00:05:48] had a really good run.

[00:05:49] I think I'm out.

[00:05:50] Oh yeah.

[00:05:51] And I also think like in his case you hear about players taking this Sabin discount to go

[00:05:55] play for Banner, right?

[00:05:58] I don't think that's over mine effect at NIL isn't supposed to be a part of recruiting

[00:06:01] at all, but that's a whole different episode.

[00:06:04] It's wink, wink probably but you know players saying okay I'm more interested in development

[00:06:09] and I'm more interested in the culture and everything else.

[00:06:11] And so it almost feels like having all the parents over and his wife talking to the moms

[00:06:17] and all of those things.

[00:06:18] Those may still be going on but they're just not nearly as important anymore to the vast

[00:06:25] majority of the players who are NIL is at the top of the list and how much money am

[00:06:31] I going to make and I'm going to go somewhere else.

[00:06:33] And so you're right Bill, the whole, you're going to have to earn your playing time here

[00:06:37] is, uh, carries a little less weight when guys are like I'm happy to be a well paid scout

[00:06:47] team guy.

[00:06:48] Well, you know that you can now be a well paid college athlete without being a great college

[00:06:54] athlete, right?

[00:06:55] Right.

[00:06:56] So we this week we exchange in a text thread, um, a summary graphic that I saw on TV, right?

[00:07:02] So let's go to the top name, image and likeness, evaluations in the world of college sports.

[00:07:08] Now keep in mind folks, college sports.

[00:07:11] Okay.

[00:07:13] At the top of the list is Bronny James, LeBron James' son who as, as we're being told

[00:07:21] on a very frequent basis has a bright future in the NBA, but we're being told that by everybody

[00:07:26] except for people who know basketball except for guys who actually might have to waste

[00:07:29] a draft pick on a spend a draft.

[00:07:31] Yeah.

[00:07:32] Yeah, because he's not even the best player on his current college team.

[00:07:36] Right.

[00:07:37] $4.9 million per year in name, image and likeness.

[00:07:42] All right.

[00:07:43] So I'm going to go out on a limb, just crazy limb here and say that that might be connected

[00:07:48] to his last name.

[00:07:49] I'm just going to say, just a guess on my part.

[00:07:54] Number two on the list is Shadoor Sanders, Dion's son.

[00:07:59] The Shadoor is a good player.

[00:08:01] He's going to be a good professional at some point.

[00:08:03] I think Dion's trying to keep him around for as long as he possibly can $4.7 million in

[00:08:08] name, image and likeness.

[00:08:11] Now if, in fact, I have tested this next name out from a name recognition standpoint,

[00:08:17] LV Dunn, LIVVY, LIVY Dunn, $3.6 million a year in NIL.

[00:08:28] If you didn't already have a head start on this, would you have known who LIVY Dunn is

[00:08:33] and what LIVY Dunn does?

[00:08:35] No.

[00:08:36] Well, I had heard about the LSU gymnast who had the crazy NIL numbers, but I wouldn't

[00:08:43] have put the name with the story.

[00:08:44] Yes.

[00:08:45] So when you think about the great revenue-producing sports and the maximum national exposure on television,

[00:08:51] you of course think college football first and then basketball next and then everything

[00:08:54] else can line up behind that.

[00:08:56] LV Dunn is a gymnast.

[00:08:57] Is it LSU?

[00:08:58] She had no shoes.

[00:08:59] Yeah, I believe so.

[00:09:02] And I guess the best way for me to put it here on church-pew sports is she's attracted

[00:09:07] quite a following of young males.

[00:09:09] Yeah.

[00:09:10] And that's it.

[00:09:11] 3.6 million a year.

[00:09:13] Right behind her is Caitlin Clark.

[00:09:15] Now of the names I've read so far, Bronny Shadour, LIVY, Caitlin makes the most sense to me.

[00:09:23] It's like athlete.

[00:09:25] And far and away the most dominant athlete in her sport and that is college basketball.

[00:09:31] She went into Iowa.

[00:09:32] She went into basketball.

[00:09:33] Yes.

[00:09:34] And she said, you know, she broke the scoring record if you we won't even...

[00:09:39] Yeah, she broke the scoring record.

[00:09:41] Congratulations, Caitlin.

[00:09:42] She's really good.

[00:09:43] She's a really good player.

[00:09:44] Yes.

[00:09:45] 3.1 million and easily, easily would make more money if she were able to stay in college

[00:09:55] than she would in the WNBA.

[00:09:57] Easily.

[00:09:59] Because once you lose your college status, so apparently you lose your appeal as a draw.

[00:10:05] I don't really understand it, but she's there.

[00:10:07] And then right behind Caitlin is Arch Manning.

[00:10:11] If the last name sounds familiar to you, that's because it should.

[00:10:15] Arch is the son of not Peyton, not Eli, but the other Manning brother...

[00:10:21] Yeah, come on.

[00:10:23] It's going to pop in here.

[00:10:24] It's right on the top of my mind.

[00:10:26] Arch is the third string quarterback in his college team at $2.8 million per year

[00:10:32] at NIL money for a young man who I could be wrong, but I think he took less than 10 snaps

[00:10:39] Cooper.

[00:10:40] Cooper is the...

[00:10:41] Is Arch's dad.

[00:10:43] He took less than 10 snaps all season and it was all in blowout time.

[00:10:47] $2.8 million per year.

[00:10:50] So here's Sabin.

[00:10:53] Here's Harbaugh.

[00:10:55] Here's Ryan Day.

[00:10:57] Here's Kirby Smart who also had some really powerful statements this week to talk about

[00:11:01] NIL.

[00:11:03] The same programs that have benefited from these players getting something are now

[00:11:12] citing that same system as why they're unhappy with either their current role or they're

[00:11:18] leaving their current roles, right?

[00:11:21] Yeah.

[00:11:22] So the coaching carousel sets into motion.

[00:11:24] Yeah, it's like you hear...

[00:11:25] Like I heard Lane Kiffin talking about it once and he was like, oh, misbenefits greatly

[00:11:31] from this system.

[00:11:32] But I hate it.

[00:11:33] Yeah.

[00:11:34] Like that's the tension.

[00:11:35] Like you hear these guys talking about, well we're going to work the system that's in

[00:11:39] play.

[00:11:40] We're not going to fall behind or whatever.

[00:11:43] But long-term, not sustained...

[00:11:46] That's what you hear Nick Sabin talking about, not sustainable or bad for the game or

[00:11:51] the culture and all that kind of stuff.

[00:11:53] So the culture is a weird place right now.

[00:11:55] I mean yeah, the culture in general but certainly the sports culture and definitely the

[00:11:59] coaching culture.

[00:12:01] So let's bring this home to the big 10, which now has 38 teams in it.

[00:12:06] Chip Kelly.

[00:12:07] Chip Kelly is a name that you all may have heard in recent weeks because he made a very

[00:12:12] unusual move.

[00:12:13] He went from being the head coach of UCLA, a team that is just now part of the big 10

[00:12:20] and he didn't sound like he was long for this world as the head coach at UCLA but he

[00:12:28] was invited by the Buckeye Head Coach Ryan Day who has been under a fair amount of heat

[00:12:34] for some reason recently and decided to go leave a head coaching position to take a job

[00:12:42] as the offensive coordinator at Ohio State University.

[00:12:46] And here's Chip Kelly sort of defending that move in a press conference.

[00:12:50] John Lennon when he was a little kid that had an assignment of what he wanted to be

[00:12:53] when you grow up and he said I want to be happy.

[00:12:56] And then his teacher said I don't think you understand the assignment and his mom said

[00:13:00] I don't think you understand life.

[00:13:02] So I just want to be happy and I'm really happy coaching a position, really happy to

[00:13:06] be at this place.

[00:13:07] You know it's what it's a special place for me to leave UCLA because I love those players

[00:13:11] and I love that coaching staff but to be here with Ryan had a great relationship I've

[00:13:15] known Ryan since he was a little kid so I think a lot of things just fell into place that

[00:13:19] way.

[00:13:20] Okay so now that domino falls and sets into motion a bunch of other dominoes.

[00:13:27] So why don't you bring our audience a little bit up to speed in what that carousel effect

[00:13:33] looks like?

[00:13:34] Well yeah it's been really interesting as in Ohio State fan to just watch and listen

[00:13:40] to what's going on and having to sort through the media takes on everything because there's

[00:13:49] wide and varied opinions of all the players, the coaches involved.

[00:13:55] But Chip Kelly leaves UCLA to take the position that was vacated by Bill O'Brien when Bill

[00:13:59] O'Brien went to become the head coach at Boston College and essentially Chip Kelly says

[00:14:04] yeah being a head coach isn't really about coaching so much anymore.

[00:14:07] And Bill O'Brien had been there for like decades.

[00:14:10] Oh at Ohio State like two weeks but his whole story totally get it because he went to

[00:14:17] Boston College because he has a special needs son who needed medical attention that the

[00:14:23] best in the country was there and so when he didn't know the Boston College position

[00:14:27] was going to come open and he went to Ryan Day and said I got to do this for my family

[00:14:32] and they said I get it.

[00:14:34] And it'd be interesting if Day would have had that reaction if you hadn't had Chip Kelly

[00:14:38] on speed dial you know.

[00:14:40] But anyways so Chip Kelly comes in and part of the backstory that most people probably

[00:14:46] don't know is that when Bill O'Brien was hired Ryan Day told all his entire offensive

[00:14:52] staff the new offensive coordinator is going to decide who keeps his job and who goes.

[00:14:58] He just turned that over to him.

[00:15:00] He's going to give him the keys to the car completely on the offensive side so like you're

[00:15:04] all going to resign and the new guy can hire back who he wants right.

[00:15:10] So then Bill O'Brien leaves and Chip Kelly comes in oh I should say with the exceptional

[00:15:14] Brian Hartline like Hartline gets a pass because he's an excellent recruiter apparently.

[00:15:19] So he didn't have to turn in his resignation?

[00:15:21] Well yeah and it's kind of yeah I don't know if they actually turned in their resignations

[00:15:24] or if he was just putting everyone on notice that they might need to you know start working

[00:15:30] their role in that a little bit to find another job in case the new guy comes in and says

[00:15:34] I got my own guy that I want to have Phil's position.

[00:15:38] Okay.

[00:15:39] Whatever so Chip Kelly comes in and in the midst of all of that going on there's already

[00:15:43] turn over happening on the offensive side of the ball at Ohio State.

[00:15:46] I listed it just in fry the offensive line coach and Brian Hartline the wide receivers

[00:15:51] coach those guys stay Parker Parker Fleming special teams fired Corey Dennis QB coach fired

[00:15:57] Todd Fitch offensive analyst QB's fired and now just recently Tony offered quit to go

[00:16:05] to the team up north the team up north and the thing about the offered pieces back in

[00:16:11] January at the end of the 23 season when all this was going down.

[00:16:16] Ryan Day typically gives out extensions and raises to all of his guys and back in January

[00:16:21] he gave everybody a raise except for Tony Alfred.

[00:16:24] In fact he gave Tony Alfred.

[00:16:26] Awkward.

[00:16:27] In fact yeah he gave Alfred a pay cut.

[00:16:30] Okay.

[00:16:31] And he did not extend his contract which means Alfred was working on one more year and he's

[00:16:38] was probably going to be gone after that.

[00:16:41] As coaching what position running backs they had a pretty good running a pretty good

[00:16:46] backfield performance.

[00:16:48] Well yes Columbus right and so the work he was underperforming well the word on the

[00:16:53] word on the street the things that I've heard are that they that day has been underwhelmed

[00:17:00] by offers recruiting recently and it's been up and down hit miss and that's been an

[00:17:05] ongoing narrative in the Ohio like for Ohio State followers that are fanatical about

[00:17:10] the book eyes whatever to know that Tony offers on the hot seat and then in January

[00:17:14] when they didn't give him a raise in fact he gave him a pay cut.

[00:17:18] That's cool.

[00:17:19] He didn't give him an extension.

[00:17:20] He said you've got one year left and it was kind of like you've got a year to prove

[00:17:24] to me that you want to be here kind of deal.

[00:17:27] So he's out offers whoever you want to listen to offers out he knows he's whatever he

[00:17:32] had it offered yet offers to go to USC to Miami to Notre Dame so it's not like he's a

[00:17:40] back no running backs coach and he's got a backfield like to your point he's got a

[00:17:44] running back room with Tre Henderson and Quinshaw and Judkins and down Hayden and James

[00:17:50] Peoples and Sam Williams they run five deep couple good freshmen and two headed monsters.

[00:17:56] So it's not like the cupboard is bare I would love to talk with and maybe somewhere

[00:18:01] in the near future we can I would love to talk with college recruiters to learn especially

[00:18:08] at the D1 level at the championship level to learn about how the assessment of their

[00:18:14] recruiting abilities has changed in the last two years.

[00:18:20] Because much like Sabin was talking about you used to have the kid you used to be in

[00:18:24] the living room with mom and dad and grandma or maybe you had all the kids and their parents

[00:18:28] at your house for breakfast and you were able to sell this open it was a it was the you

[00:18:32] know the amway meeting with the easel kind of a thing and you're getting everybody to sign

[00:18:35] up for your pyramids game and now they're all they're all coming in with their hands

[00:18:40] out.

[00:18:41] Yes.

[00:18:42] And asking for a bag of cash and guaranteed playing time for as long as they decide to

[00:18:49] stay there with you so you're investing a whole lot of resources into the recruitment

[00:18:53] of a kid that you might see for nine months maybe even less and I wish I wish I had found

[00:19:00] the sound bite that I heard when I was listening to Dan Patrick comment about Caitlin Clark

[00:19:08] and he said one of the reasons that America knows her name is because she's been in the

[00:19:14] same program for her entire career.

[00:19:17] We haven't had to track her down it's like trying to find your favorite show these days

[00:19:20] you never know what streamer it's on yeah and he said that's it's taking its toll on

[00:19:25] men's sports because you don't really know if you're favorite running the game.

[00:19:30] Running back is still going to be on your team or maybe he changes schools but stays within

[00:19:35] the conference and that kind of thing well it can happen in the coaching realms as well.

[00:19:40] I don't know how you assess a good recruiter these days because the things that used to work

[00:19:47] don't work.

[00:19:48] Yeah and often had a reputation of being a having connections in the south and Florida

[00:19:52] and other places but he also had a recent track record of losing recruits you know they

[00:19:58] had a couple of my any kids that signed and then as signing day approach all of a sudden

[00:20:03] the bag magically appears.

[00:20:04] So why is that all first fault?

[00:20:06] Right exactly and all for it was the oldest coach on the team and the staff with the

[00:20:11] section maybe Jim knows but he had this kind of father figure kind of role in the program

[00:20:16] so there's all these dynamics in the soup and then he decides I'm going to bounce and

[00:20:22] I'm not just going to bounce.

[00:20:23] I'm going to bounce to the rival and I'm going to wait until I've had a week with the

[00:20:30] new playbook at Ohio State before I'm going to bounce.

[00:20:33] And so there's all these things that are going on and depending on who you listen to you

[00:20:37] can get really mad at Alfred or you can get really mad at Ryan Day.

[00:20:41] I have been trying to just listen to the facts and not the interpretations of the facts as

[00:20:49] everyone speaks their truth about this whole thing but it's been a little bit crazy

[00:20:57] and it's only been exasperated by the fact that he chose to go to Michigan.

[00:21:02] Yeah if he goes to Rutgers nobody cares.

[00:21:05] And they're like we saw it come in day was mistreating him he was on the outs already

[00:21:10] but he kind of you know tell us Ohio State to pound sand when he decides to go to Michigan

[00:21:16] or that was the best offer for him.

[00:21:19] In Ohio State fans can just kind of get over it.

[00:21:21] Yeah, it's always got a family to feed and he's gotten things to take care of that.

[00:21:25] And he had just been insulted by not having an extension and a pay cut offered to him.

[00:21:31] So okay so for those of you who liked to have a visual imagery painted you know maybe

[00:21:37] you're the true crime podcast series and you like to have one episode in here and then

[00:21:42] the next day they tell you the other side of the story.

[00:21:44] So let us momentarily put a pin in Columbus Ohio and let us move a couple hours up

[00:21:52] by 75 over to US 23 and into the people's Republic of Ann Arbor where theoretically everything

[00:22:02] is coming up literally roses and national championships and 15 and all and this everyone

[00:22:08] should be happy.

[00:22:09] This song is on a loop you know we're just kind of gathering ourselves to get ready

[00:22:14] to sing the full version of the victors from the nice orchestral preamble into the band

[00:22:19] taking the field 15 and all national championship overcoming not having your coach for six

[00:22:26] games by the way they still one more than the basketball team did all year but that's

[00:22:31] a different situation.

[00:22:33] So literally everybody in Wolverine land should be floating on cloud 910 11 and 12 30 40

[00:22:41] and 15.

[00:22:43] Coach Harbaud delivered on his promise the the the sun came home and led led us to the

[00:22:49] promised land and you know whatever the very poor biblical analogies are and then when

[00:22:56] he leaves which was not the surprising part then when he leaves he begins quickly emptying

[00:23:05] the cupboard of the coaching staff and you're hearing things like strengthen conditioning

[00:23:10] coach who most of the players credit for a whole lot of their success Ben Herbert gone

[00:23:15] San Diego defensive coordinator mentor gone offensive coordinator Sharon Moore promoted

[00:23:23] to be the head coach.

[00:23:25] And you think okay all right we can understand we get this.

[00:23:27] Just take a little breath here will be off would be fine there's just a couple of coaches

[00:23:31] and then they keep on going it's like there's only one or two at the nine the whole place

[00:23:37] got cleaned out yeah.

[00:23:39] And Harbaud gives a press conference out there in San Diego where he's wearing the new powder

[00:23:44] blue and gold and he says I really view these two programs as one Michigan San Diego and

[00:23:53] I keep thinking well then how about you stop taking everything from the one as you're

[00:23:58] moving into your new.

[00:24:00] Yes, the family might be the one person who has that perspective yes if he really does

[00:24:06] so somehow as we sit here in Ann Arbor or near Ann Arbor it feels like a rebuilding year

[00:24:13] right after a national championship right so I we played some coach saving earlier he

[00:24:18] just kept going I mean it was it was a machine that just kept reloading and you don't

[00:24:23] win seven national titles if you're rebuilding every year you have those in between years.

[00:24:28] So you have your quarterback on you have your running back on you have basically your

[00:24:32] whole offensive lineman or in the NFL draft and the draft is going to be a very fun Wolverine

[00:24:38] draft but back in Ann Arbor back in little old Ann Arbor that coaching carousel and the

[00:24:46] chaos and the culture almost have a complete reset to that.

[00:24:54] I don't think it was because anybody's been insulted I don't think it was you know this

[00:24:59] desire to run away from the way that college sports have become whatever the case whatever

[00:25:06] the cause it's going to be entirely different so now let's so we've got our pins still

[00:25:11] here in Columbus yeah now we've got one in Ann Arbor we've got one down there in Tuscaloosa

[00:25:17] these are the three major brands in college football I mean you can make your argument you could

[00:25:23] probably stick one in Athens George Athens Georgia and that's legitimate Georgia's obviously a

[00:25:28] brand program all of those programs are unhappy with the way things are right now yeah Kirby will

[00:25:36] stay and he'll fight his way through it and they'll be great again I'm sure the others I mean

[00:25:41] I could make the case that Ohio State appears to be in panic mode simply because of

[00:25:47] two plays this season really you could make that case sure because they they really could have beaten

[00:25:52] Michigan what is this doing to fans of the programs that we just put pins in I mean I know that when

[00:26:03] game day comes will still be there will still be paying attention will still be rooting and will

[00:26:07] still be doing all these things but this culture change becomes unappealing as a fan really really

[00:26:14] quickly because there's nothing to hang your hat on we had this here last year who are these people

[00:26:22] right it's like walking into a church you're just visiting for the first time but somebody had told

[00:26:27] you oh you got to come to this place because this this group of pastors has been here for for

[00:26:32] 15 years you walk in they're like hey we're the new guys right and it's all different yeah it's

[00:26:38] what does it do to the fan base it gives you multiple places to assign blame and I think fans

[00:26:44] need to assign blame and be disgruntled and your point about if if Ann Arbor should ever be happy

[00:26:51] it would be in the offseason after a 15-0 nadi right you would think but run it back let's run it

[00:26:57] yeah and all that stuff and then as an Ohio State fan I hear the stories about it's panic mode

[00:27:03] and everything else and really what they in Ryan Day is swinging for the fences well I think there

[00:27:08] were two things that happened that just kind of fell in Ohio State's lap number one all those

[00:27:14] players that should have declared for the draft decided to run it back and try to that's what started

[00:27:20] the whole thing and there's a long list of them yeah and then the second thing was Sabin's retirement

[00:27:25] because all the sudden guys like Caleb Downs are dropping into Ohio State's lap which never

[00:27:30] would have happened if Sabin was still coaching so those two things combined with your point of it

[00:27:36] was a call as a play here and there that really Ohio State's season hinge down that's the life

[00:27:41] of an Ohio State fan is that it's all or nothing everything's got to be perfect or the

[00:27:47] sky is falling in life as we know it is going to end yeah and maybe that's what we need or want

[00:27:53] to his fans is to be able to live or die and rise and fall on the soap opera that is our favorite sports

[00:28:01] teams culture I don't know but that's what I feel like is going on so we can look at a couple of

[00:28:07] examples of of a coaching culture resisting the chaos yeah because if we move our attention to

[00:28:15] the NFL there's still all sorts of chaos going on amongst those who are leading these multi hundreds

[00:28:22] of million dollars worth of franchises so Chicago's got its issues right and so does every team

[00:28:30] interestingly I guess the best way I would put it is in Detroit the guy with

[00:28:38] it seems like the most loyal following the team following Dan Campbell has been able to keep

[00:28:45] together a unit of coaches that most thought at least two of them were going to be gone

[00:28:52] to head coach other teams he's like above the fray somehow yeah and it almost seems to be a

[00:28:58] bro culture like I and believe me folks I know they're getting paid I understand that these guys

[00:29:04] are getting getting their money yeah but Ben Johnson was listed among the most highly sought after

[00:29:11] assistant coaches to become head coaches in the entire league some have conjectured that he

[00:29:16] was asking for too much and that he's maybe not a great interview I don't even know but I do know

[00:29:21] that he turned down the potential to go elsewhere to stay as an assistant in Detroit right so maybe it

[00:29:30] is related to my love what I do I love the unit that I'm a part of I love the promise that we have here

[00:29:37] maybe I'm not confident enough in myself to be a head coach whatever it is he's still there

[00:29:42] yeah the defensive coordinator is is still there and this unit stays together and you know

[00:29:47] theoretically they're going to build off it as opposed to some of the other markets in the NFL where

[00:29:53] you see what looks to be I don't know if panics to write word but already willingness to just

[00:30:02] change everything up yeah and again I come back to this because we're talking to fans on this

[00:30:07] podcast what do you do as a fan when you see what looks like instability and uncertainty creeping

[00:30:18] into every sports team that you have kind of held dear for all these years yeah it's a great question

[00:30:25] I think you have to remind yourself that it's a sport it's supposed to be fun to watch and cheer

[00:30:36] I was watching the big 10 wrestling finals okay these past couple days because I was I was home

[00:30:45] alone and I had two days off after being on the road for three weeks and I'm like I just need

[00:30:49] to decompress a little bit anybody in that wrestling finals on that N.A.L. list that I read off

[00:30:56] not that I would be aware of I don't follow wrestling that closely but they were interviewing a guy

[00:31:00] I think he was from Penn State is a good chance he was from Penn State because they won like

[00:31:03] more than half of the big 10 championships but they were asking this guy about how he deals with

[00:31:09] all this stress and his answer was basically I think it was Greg Kirkfleet from Penn State he goes

[00:31:17] you know this is a sport if I win that's great if I lose the life is not over it's supposed to be fun

[00:31:27] and I've got other things in my life that are more important than this yeah and I'm like

[00:31:33] here's this yeah perspective 21-year-old answering this question in the poor reporters like

[00:31:39] that's not what they were expecting here there's no there's no follow-up to that well hey I'm

[00:31:43] really glad that you have it in a healthy perspective because everybody else is going out of

[00:31:48] their minds trying to figure this thing out right and so I don't know how as a supporter

[00:31:58] someone who's beyond a fan and is a supporter of a program or whatever how you manage that tension

[00:32:04] because it's real yeah so let's do a little side-by-side comparison and take it out of the world

[00:32:10] of sports into the world that you're part of as part of the team at the EFCA the Evangelical

[00:32:16] Free Church of America there are there are church cultures as well it was leadership in churches

[00:32:21] and sometimes the leadership changes if you have a church that has a staff then of course

[00:32:26] there are moving parts and there are men and women who come and go and they feel called to other

[00:32:32] ministries sometimes they are encouraged to seek a role in other ministries whatever it is yeah

[00:32:38] um what does the what is a healthy church culture leadership look like because it doesn't always

[00:32:45] have the same people plugged into the same roles yeah it's a fascinating parallel bill

[00:32:55] you attend your church

[00:32:57] um because of your followership of Jesus yeah right um but it's easy to let your followership

[00:33:09] of a specific pastor or person creep up and become a close second um to that and so that's

[00:33:17] and and people are people right and there's power associated in kind of sustaining those cultures

[00:33:23] and being in leadership positions so here's what I did I sat down yesterday I've got you know

[00:33:27] years as an executive pastor and I've navigated a couple of transitions myself and um you know

[00:33:34] when I was at Hopevale we went through a transition at our in the senior pastor role and there

[00:33:39] were some other transitions that happened along the way with that as well and I wrote down five

[00:33:45] things that I've heard or been told or been taught while I was in the executive pastor role

[00:33:52] that it's eerily similar to some of the things that I wish I could say to like Ryan Day or award

[00:33:58] menu or whatever so here's here's here's five things number one order Joanne Howard okay

[00:34:03] order Joanne Howard yeah well yeah there's there's all kinds of layers right the first one is I

[00:34:07] I've heard this XP podcast once where they were talking about how do you lead your team

[00:34:13] you're the senior your senior your senior pastor executive pastor you're the head coach or whatever

[00:34:18] and the question they get it was here's all the questions and you'd ask yourself from one of

[00:34:22] them is who are you tolerating who from who on your team right now are you tolerating because

[00:34:31] the chaos that would come with replacing them is greater than the chaos of tolerating them in their

[00:34:39] role so somebody that you wouldn't otherwise accept to their current level of performance except it's

[00:34:45] a bigger headache to try to find somebody else to come in yeah like I want to ask Ryan Day hey man

[00:34:50] so you cut his pay sorry I'm a buck I but I would ask Ryan Day you cut Tony offers pay and you gave

[00:34:58] him a one you didn't extend him so he's done a one year prove it deal as opposed to just

[00:35:05] cutting bait right yeah rip off the band aid probably would have been better I would say the same

[00:35:09] thing to word manual about you on Howard yeah you know no the price that you're going to pay

[00:35:13] and have in replace the guy whatever so who are you tolerating number two give the people that you

[00:35:18] lead all the truth all the time okay don't just dance around how you feel about their level of

[00:35:25] performance or how they're doing in their role give them all the truth all the time number three

[00:35:32] there's some application there to the to the world sports right number three when the heart leaves

[00:35:37] the brain follows quickly so this is again talking to Ryan Day hey man you shouldn't be surprised

[00:35:43] that back in January when you you essentially allowed Tony offers heart to leave his brains going

[00:35:49] to follow yeah pretty pretty quickly in the case of Jim Harbaugh probably extended a little bit

[00:35:57] but ultimately yeah where did they land right yeah and then this one has been really true for me

[00:36:01] the fourth one long hello short goodbyes okay explain that you know so when you're looking to put

[00:36:07] to add someone to the team do your due diligence take your time have all the conversations you need

[00:36:12] to have because the implications of a wrong hire are worse are more difficult and then short

[00:36:20] goodbyes I this is from personal experience when I left our church down in Dallas I'd ask me to stick

[00:36:25] around for an extra six months and I said yes and I never should have done that it just was long

[00:36:30] and painful for everybody because the heart had left so my brain had been following right got you

[00:36:36] so when it's time to go just say goodby and go and then the last one give a gracious exit no

[00:36:44] matter what the circumstances are around the departure yeah it doesn't do it doesn't do Tony

[00:36:50] offered any good to be lied to be lobbing his truth grenades down toward Columbus from an hour

[00:36:58] what is what is that soft it doesn't do Ryan Day any good to get his team in the locker room

[00:37:04] and trash Tony offered right at this point it doesn't do anybody any good and so as the leader

[00:37:13] you always want to give the person leaving a gracious exit no matter what the circumstances are

[00:37:18] around their departure those are like all things that I've been coached to do as a church leader

[00:37:24] and I've experienced firsthand or I've experienced the pros and cons of not following some of that

[00:37:30] advice and I would talk today about that I would talk to word manual about that I'd talk to Jim Harbob

[00:37:36] about the I mean all the above it's a little bit crazy yeah the parallel that there is here

[00:37:41] just leadership I have a visual in my mind the final regular season home basketball game for

[00:37:49] Michigan at Chrysler arena just a few days ago somebody took a shot from like the top row in

[00:37:56] Chrysler of the whole scene and when I tell you there were a few dozen people left on senior night

[00:38:04] yeah and they were of course they were getting pummeled because it was the most losses that

[00:38:07] that program has ever had I mean I'm not exaggerating a few dozen people in this entire arena

[00:38:14] and I all I could think to myself was they that the fan base has lost confidence in the leadership

[00:38:22] yes and you could probably draw some parallels and in worst case scenarios to a church where

[00:38:27] that same sort of thing perhaps has happened maybe it's because the the leadership had

[00:38:33] whatever gone off the rails and things had not gone in the direction that people had signed up for

[00:38:38] and you can see it because in both the world of sports fan base assessment and I guess in some

[00:38:48] worlds of church attendance and I hate to draw these parallels because they they fail on a number

[00:38:53] of levels but in both cases participation is is optional yeah I'm not saying that your church

[00:39:02] attendance please don't hear me wrong I'm not saying church attendance should be optional I'm saying

[00:39:07] it is optional nobody's coming to your house and forcing you to go there nobody's forcing you to buy

[00:39:13] season tickets to go watch a horrible team with leadership that you don't like now the parallels

[00:39:18] and because we have a responsibility to gather and fellowship and all those things as followers of

[00:39:24] Christ so just just do me a favor don't read into this what I'm not saying yeah but if you look at

[00:39:31] the visual imagery of a church that is that is failing that is dying perhaps because of lack of

[00:39:37] inspiration maybe it's lack of leadership integrity and you could probably put together a couple

[00:39:42] dozen perhaps is on your list you can watch the parking lot every week and see what's happening

[00:39:49] in the house of that church and you can do that with a sports franchise as well so the leadership

[00:39:54] quotient of all of this is so vital yeah you don't have to win every game but you better have vision

[00:40:01] you better be forthright in your shortcomings as opposed to pointing in every other different

[00:40:06] direction as to why you didn't achieve whatever it was you were supposed to achieve

[00:40:11] and you better not lose the confidence and support of your base yeah and the words of

[00:40:18] the late great Dan Davis who was my first boss he's still with us but he's on the other side of state

[00:40:26] this is a tension to manage not a problem to solve yeah this is a leadership thing

[00:40:32] and it's always going to be there and the thing that Dan and I used to talk about all the time was

[00:40:38] how do you communicate and what do you communicate because human nature is when there's a lack of

[00:40:45] information you fill in the gaps negative so you have to as a leader you have to tell people

[00:40:53] enough of what's really going on for them to continue to have confidence to follow but you have

[00:40:59] all these other aspects of this tension that you have to manage like you don't come out and trash

[00:41:03] like that would be Ryan Day having to press her right now I'm going yeah let me tell you what

[00:41:08] Tony offers really been like for the last year right right you're not going to do that right at least

[00:41:12] you shouldn't do that yeah or whatever so it's a tension to manage not a problem to solve all right

[00:41:20] let's move on speaking of problems that was really good guys a leadership leadership lessons from

[00:41:25] church you sports yeah I can talk about that all you know it's funny I really enjoy that kind of

[00:41:31] conversation connecting sports to life and faith I mean that's why we do this podcast yeah I would

[00:41:36] be fascinated to hear from anybody who's still listening okay so in fact let me let me just throw out

[00:41:43] a little challenge to you if you're still listening to us I'm going to send you something I've got

[00:41:48] I've got stuff I've got little prizes I've got little things from my world of golf send me an email

[00:41:53] the email addresses in the podcast link a podcast comments I'm going to email address for church

[00:41:59] abuse sports you just say hey Bill I'm still listening that's all I want in the fridge you're

[00:42:04] going to send it to us I'm going to send you a little reward a little something from my world

[00:42:09] of Michigan golf live and there you go okay so meet this maybe what we need to do is speak a

[00:42:15] little bit to church attenders and say hey there's some life lessons for oh yeah in this right now

[00:42:22] you don't have to be a coach you don't have to be the pastor like number one believe the best

[00:42:28] about your pastors yes about the leaders of your church if they're not telling you everything it's

[00:42:34] because you don't need to know everything right so trust them and believe the best and number two

[00:42:41] don't ever confuse or conflate the leadership of your church with like Jesus yeah because you're

[00:42:47] again you're a part of the church because you're a follower of Jesus yeah you have someone who's

[00:42:52] put in a leadership role and you follow them but ultimately they should be leading you toward

[00:42:58] Jesus so don't mix those things up and yeah in a negative culture yeah that is prone to starting

[00:43:05] with pessimism don't do that to your pastors yeah it doesn't mean they're perfect it doesn't

[00:43:11] mean that they've gotten everything right but it's pretty rare when they're intentionally getting

[00:43:17] it wrong yeah yeah and maybe I can dial it in an even more personal level and say hey all you

[00:43:23] hope-fail people that are listening I'm gonna repeat what I said when I left Hope Fail Staff a

[00:43:27] number of months ago I didn't leave because of the new senior pastor in fact I loved I love

[00:43:33] Hope Fail Senior Pastor Josh party you know that's my biggest sadness and the whole thing is Josh

[00:43:38] I had to work together longer yeah I just feel like I need to say that oh it's good and as

[00:43:43] somebody who has served over in the course of my adulthood in various church leadership roles

[00:43:49] Deakin or elder or whatever probably the greatest frustration is the propensity for people

[00:43:57] to begin by assuming the worst yeah I don't understand that I do not and we're a family we're a

[00:44:04] fellowship we come together because we love the Lord and we have found common interest and

[00:44:12] common belief and common practice within this body of believers we understand there are churches

[00:44:17] every point eight miles throughout America you could go to the one next door if you want to but for

[00:44:22] some reason you've come through the doors of the church that you happen to be in yeah can

[00:44:27] you just and by the way this is a difference between the church culture and the sports culture

[00:44:35] I don't really care if you want to start with a negative starting point in your assessment

[00:44:40] of your sports team go ahead yeah it's part of the angst of being a sportsman it was not always

[00:44:45] fair to the coach and to the program but if that's what you want to do you can do that and you

[00:44:51] can live under that negative cloud and just think that they're intentionally messing everything up

[00:44:55] if you do that within your church culture you do that to your own detriment yes

[00:45:02] you are harming yourself by always assuming you're the only person in civilization who knows what's

[00:45:09] exactly right it's an arrogance it's a narcissism that drives me beyond bananas and it's one of

[00:45:16] the primary reasons that I hold in such high esteem my pastor friends yeah because you all in the

[00:45:23] you know air quotes profession what it is it's a profession have brought to the gig

[00:45:31] a skill set that loves people at their least lovable moments and I don't think I really have

[00:45:37] that because I get so weary of the default assumption of incompetence and negativity and you just

[00:45:45] you just want to shout at somebody what on earth are you how would you think that's what we're

[00:45:50] doing here yeah you hear it so much it's exactly right though and you're gonna get me going again

[00:45:56] here right it's like well nobody's listening to go ahead I can get I can get frustrated Ohio state

[00:46:01] fans that are psychotic enough to perpetuate the firewide and Dave well and perpetuate the notion

[00:46:07] that all Ohio state fans are psychotic right like I get that and that that's gonna happen

[00:46:11] really else but if you harm the bride yes Christ yes it's your or the reputation of the bride

[00:46:19] of Christ if you do anything that hurts the church I want to have a conversation with you

[00:46:25] yeah because I love the local church hopefully more than I love the Ohio state book guys

[00:46:33] yeah and then that sounds weird to say but yeah to be reminded of that um and when I have leadership

[00:46:42] conversations that I need to have with people I just want to remind everyone you're messing with

[00:46:46] the bride of Christ yeah and just stop it and it's to your own detriment because God is not

[00:46:51] derailed by our thoughts our assumptions yeah um are conniving and all that stuff that takes place

[00:47:00] behind the scenes when you think you're gathering this group of fellow insurrectionist to do these

[00:47:05] things like you think you saw him too says he sits on his throne in scoffs at those who you know

[00:47:10] at the kings who tried to overthrow him he's like what do we what do we do it yeah let's keep

[00:47:14] going right like I can call Ryan Day and say hey man I'm a fan of Ohio State and I want you to run a

[00:47:18] west coast offense and he can look back and go you didn't get to make that decision just follow it's

[00:47:24] kind of like someone calling the church and going hey man I I'm a member of this church I get

[00:47:27] to tell you what kind of there's so many things yeah I better stop now baby churches should sell

[00:47:34] season tickets we should look at personal seat licenses and see or have better swag as if we

[00:47:40] haven't already unloaded our holy discontent it's time to blow off some steam get it off your chest

[00:47:50] rant about what's most bothering you I got a lot of problems with you people now you're gonna hear

[00:47:56] about it it's time for holy discontent hey Chicago Bears fan how you doing over there I'm doing good

[00:48:03] I'm gonna sound like such a hypocrite because I'm about to do all the things that I just told

[00:48:07] people not to do right like okay so if you've been watching the Bears lately they're loading up now

[00:48:14] now now yeah they've added a number of players on defense and on just on offense they've added

[00:48:20] Keenan Allen wide receiver they've added Deander Swift running back I tied in Gerald Everett

[00:48:26] three offensive lineman right when they're in the middle of the quarterback drama of what

[00:48:32] they're gonna do between Justin Fields and Caleb Williams and even Jaden Daniels now they're

[00:48:36] talking about who who's gonna be that number one pick and everything else and so as an Ohio

[00:48:42] state guy I would love to see Justin Fields remain as QB1 for the Bears where were all these moves

[00:48:51] to bolster the offense in support your quarterback before you had arguably a lame duck guy on the roster

[00:48:59] and a questionable you think Fields is gone sadly I do but I'm hoping I'm wrong with that but again it's

[00:49:10] I just boy I just have to take my own medicine from earlier in this conversation say I'm okay with

[00:49:16] whatever you said to do right you know when I'm in sports you don't have to be okay someone

[00:49:20] just doesn't make sense I'm a lifelong lion's fan there were a lot of things that everybody was

[00:49:24] like what on earth are you thinking or doing they yes the Bears should trade the first pick roll

[00:49:29] with Justin Fields stack the deck I saw that the Vikings just recently now picked up a second first

[00:49:35] rounder and they don't have a quarterback so see if you can pry those two first round picks

[00:49:39] and another first next year for the promise of Caleb Williams and then off you go and so many

[00:49:44] draft picks yeah so many it would be the Cowboys Herschel Walker trade from way back when kind of

[00:49:49] which arguably they pulled off last year to pull it off again this year would be awesome my

[00:49:54] holy discontent is with the Lich family the owners of the Red Wings and the grab for cash

[00:50:00] the most pristine uniforms in I think all of sports I guess you could argue some pinstripes

[00:50:06] and some winged helmets but the Red Wings Jersey with that winged wheel is just so iconic it's

[00:50:13] original six it's maybe the Black Hawk's Jersey yeah original six again yeah not something they've

[00:50:19] tried to change with the marketing focus groups over the years where you get a teal horse head

[00:50:23] like the pistons tried for I mean all that kind of silliness and about a week and a half ago

[00:50:31] for the first time ever the Red Wings decided to sell a sponsorship bit of real estate on the front

[00:50:37] of the Jersey up on the right shoulder there's a little patch it's little it's probably two by three

[00:50:43] or two by four inches and it was purchased by a garbage company or a waste management company

[00:50:50] called priority so that on the Wings Jersey is the word patch priority well since then they've

[00:50:58] been playing like trash yeah and they have lost seven consecutive games and have gone from

[00:51:03] solidly in the playoffs to being on the very outskirts of it now some have pointed out to me

[00:51:09] that it also has coincided with Dylan Larkin not being in the lineup but I'm going with the patch

[00:51:14] yes as my theory get the patch off the Jersey thing off of there and don't lose this potential

[00:51:20] playoff run because while we have proclaimed that in Stevie we trust we can't we can't have that

[00:51:29] that counter acted by a patch a sponsorship and hockey fans by definition are supposed to be

[00:51:34] superstitious about stuff like that so playoff beards the whole thing don't touch the Stanley Cup

[00:51:39] until you've won it yeah and don't put a garbage companies patch on your pristine jersey or you'll

[00:51:45] play like garbage and it's osmosis right now this minute today this week all right hey it's

[00:51:57] college basketball conference championship time as we're speaking it'll be over by the time many

[00:52:02] of you hear this but some fun stuff happening yeah so my that guy this week which is when we give a

[00:52:07] shout out to someone who's doing it right my shoutout is to the Big East because the Big East tournament

[00:52:12] every year and C.A.B.A a basketball men's tournament is in Madison Square Garden and they give the same

[00:52:20] intro music to every single team and it's just awesome

[00:52:33] players players on the bench and her heads are bobbing I mean how can you not get into that vibe

[00:52:38] when that music's playing what is that song it's called the hypnotize it's like that some rap

[00:52:42] are great name to it yeah so you like the way that that sets the tone in Madison Square it just makes

[00:52:48] me ready to watch NCAA tournament basketball would you trade that for the old bulls introductions

[00:52:57] no okay serious Alan Parsons project no that's that's at the top of the list but this is on

[00:53:03] out Rushmore with it yeah I love it all right let's wrap things up

[00:53:07] a Homer I'd like you to remember Matthew 726 the foolish man who built his house on sound and you

[00:53:15] remember Matthew 21 17 and he left them and went out of the city into Bethany and he logged there

[00:53:26] yeah think about it think about it okay this has been a great conversation it's been rather

[00:53:35] cathartic for me so thank you to everyone who indulged us all the way through to the end of

[00:53:40] this discussion today thank you Bill I just want to give us one little challenge as we take

[00:53:47] the discussion that we had earlier in apply it to life this comes directly from Matthew 18 and

[00:53:54] the idea of confrontational integrity if you have a beef with someone assume the worst and go on

[00:54:00] with assume the worst and talk about them behind their back mount a campaign if you have something

[00:54:06] against someone here's what Matthew 18 tells us to do if your brother or sister sins go and point

[00:54:13] out their fault just between the two of you if they listen to you you've won them over but if they

[00:54:17] will not listen take one or two others along so that every matter maybe established by the testimony

[00:54:22] of two or three witnesses if they still refuse to listen tell the church and if they refuse to

[00:54:26] listen even to the church treat them as you would at pagan or a text collector what does that mean

[00:54:31] that means when you have an issue with someone go talk to the per directly to the person you have the

[00:54:36] issue with that's your first play to resolve it don't like passive aggressive give them a

[00:54:44] pay cut or passive aggressive slip information to the media about their lack of performance

[00:54:50] leaking or any of those kind of things go right to the person and have the conversation and if that

[00:54:56] doesn't work bring one other person with you if that doesn't work take it before the leaders of your

[00:55:02] church your organization whatever it is and then if all of those steps are followed and you still

[00:55:09] can't resolve the issue then you can move on Matthew 18 is such wise practical advice for us to

[00:55:16] follow in any type of conflict or confrontation that we find ourselves in in our marriages

[00:55:24] in our parenting in our work lives everywhere so I just want us all to despite the examples being

[00:55:32] set for us by some of our heroes in the world of sports that when we find ourselves in situations

[00:55:37] like that let's let's honor Matthew 18 let's have confrontation integrity and it will go better

[00:55:41] for all of us yeah I mean let's just not always assume the absolute worst about everybody yes

[00:55:45] and then what a culture change that would be across the board if we just started from a different

[00:55:50] default starting point yeah love it good stuff hey if you're still with us thanks for listening

[00:55:56] glad you're here and as we dived dived dove delved into the world of leadership talk a little bit

[00:56:02] that's one of the connection points that I really enjoy about church pure sports so if you do

[00:56:07] please share the link with others in your world and send me a note just I'm still listening

[00:56:12] that's all I want to hear and we've got a little something for you so the email address is in

[00:56:17] the notes to the podcast and we'll be back next week with another connecting point probably a

[00:56:21] little more sports centric next time we gather but it's fun and every once in a while your host

[00:56:26] need to blow off some steam as well so that's what's happening and good stuff thanks for listening