CHM173: Why Slowing Down Helps Kids Thrive with Leslie Martino

Hi, everyone, Welcome to the Christian Homeschool Moms Podcast. I have a wonderful guest today. I'm excited to talk to Leslie M. Martino, who has over twenty years of experience teaching both as an elementary school teacher, a home educator, and an adjunctive lecturer for graduate courses that focus on the role of the teacher in supporting children's individual work preferences. So that's going to play a big role in what we're talking about today. She is she homeschools her four kids, and she is a speaker on topics of education and motherhood and a contributing writer for the World and Free homeschool community. Thank you so much for being here today, Leslie. Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. All right. So I always want to hear the story. So, yes, your family, how you got into homeschooling. How did this all happen for you? Okay? Well, as you heard in my bio, I have always been in the world of it. It feels like I've always been in the world of education anyway. But it was something homeschooling was something that we were thinking about, my husband and I before we even had kids. And that's mostly because we are both originally from New York and the schools that I was working up there, it was a very very exciting environment for me to be in. When we moved to Florida, the school system at that time was very very different here, and we started talking about like when we have kids, and I was like, well, there's so much I want to create. We can just do that at home, and you know, so we started talking about it from then, and then when our kids became school age and we were doing that and creating that type of environment, we were like, oh, okay, I guess we're homeschoolers now, you know. Yeah, here we are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it came out of the kind of need to adapt some things to work for your family and on your move and your new environment and what you got exactly. And of course, you know, since that time, every year I feel like we add on new reasons why we continue to homeschool. But that's how it started. Right right. I'll always love to hear the beginning story, So that's important. And so you've spent over twenty years as an educator and you're now homeschool mom to four. So you wrote a book and we're going to be highlighting that a lot in this interview. I would love to know how when you wrote this book, what led you to kind of write it at this moment in your homeschool journey, and tell us the name of the book and a little bit about it. Okay, So the name of the book is The Joy of Slow Restoring Balance and Wonder to homeschool learning. And the reason why I wanted to write it is because I felt like I sat in a unique position as somebody who could see education from different perspectives. Like I said, I was an educator, I was in public schools. I was, or you know, still am, a homeschool mom and very much interacting with other homeschool parents and so, you know, being a parent, having a child at school age, being an educator, still going into schools and training teachers, and I just felt like I had a perspective that I wanted to offer the homeschool community, you know. And I think sometimes homeschool parents have an idea based on their own school experience, on what's happening in schools, and then they compare that to their experience and they feel like they're falling short, or sometimes they think they're doing better. I guess what they're comparing it to. But I just wanted to just look at the conversation of education a little bit more holistically and just offer my perspective because I've had my feet in a lot of different different doors, different worlds, and I just felt like I wanted to offer encouragement, offer support in the way that I can do it best. And I was doing it for so many years, and I was like, I think I should probably put this all in a book. I love it. I love that just that inspiration to share what you're thinking about and your commitment to just education and solidifying that in a book for others, Like, that's a gift. That's a gift too. So I appreciate that you're doing that, that you've done that. Have you seen a lot of this kind of rush into getting results, you know? I know that, like our kids are in school, or my youngest is now in school, and so it's very different than when we homescholder and just that kind of rush for the end result, the end product. What I loved about our homeschooling days is when we could take things more. So, what have you observed that inspired this kind of deeper call to slow down. Well, you know, that's actually one of the things I noticed is that no matter where education is happening, whether it's at home or it's in schools, there's this certain rush about things that can tend to take over. And homeschool parents in many instances are not exempt. And when I was, it was in the process of homeschooling my own children, you know, especially when they were younger, that I started to really realize how much this time at home with them was a gift. And I think that most people start out homeschooling and they're looking for the perfect philosophy or the perfect method or the perfect style, like they start there, but those things, to me, really don't fully capture the depth of what makes the homeschool experience meaningful. It adds to it. But you know, if you ask homeschoolers what what do you enjoy about homeschooling, usually their faces light up and they start rattling off this list of like all the best parts of you know, what makes homeschooling so great. And then if you also ask them, okay, well, how much do you think those things are happening on a regular basis in your home? Then their their face changes and they're like different, yeah, and there's a there's a disconnect there. And you know, for me, I wanted to really trust, learn to trust my children more and more over any system or over any procedure. And I wanted to trust them as natural learners who are curious, growing kids. And I wanted to protect all those things that I saw developing in them over the years and and participate in helping them thrive, no matter what curriculum or homeschool philosophy that we were using. And when I ask myself what kind of approach what allow me to do that, it wasn't a philosophy and it wasn't a method that I kept reflecting on. It was the bold act of slowing down as a parent, as a mom, as an as an educator. You know, like I said before, the world of education, no matter where it's happening, tends to really focus on productivity and timelines, you know, exactly, like faster is better, do hurry up. Even the way we speak to our kids, hurry up, get this done so we can go to disappointment or whatever. You know, it's all right, and it sucks the joy out of the experience, but By contrast, I think slowing down is an opportunity to really recapture the delight and the enthusiasm that are really the best parts of the experience that we say with our own mouths of the best parts of the experience. I love what you just said, recapture the delight, I think, And that's just it's something that we can easily let slip pass because there's so much going on in our world that we just see we don't capture those moments. So I'm glad you said that. There's also alin in your manuscript. In your book, it says slow schooling honors a child's interest and respects the time it takes to cultivate the imagination and develop authentic skills. So I would love for you to kind of help us understand what does that kind of learning look like in real life and just a love. That for us, please, Okay, Yeah, So I would say, you know, honoring a child's interest means we have to follow their interests, right, So it means that we have to pay attention to the things that excite them. You know, what do they wonder about? What makes their eyes light up? And then once we do that create space for those interests to really unfold in an unrushed way, you know, even if the interests don't look very academic at first gant glance, right encouraged to lean into those interests, and that involves a lot of invitation as opposed to imposing, you know, like so instead of assigning all the learning tasks, you're like extending invitations to explore or to build or create that or question that a little bit more. And when kids, honestly, when kids feel that sense of autonomy, they're more likely to invest themselves fully. And sometimes I start talking about following children's interests and parents are like, how do you do that all the time? And then still get a B and C done? You know, And I always say, I'm not talking actually about doing it all the time. You do it to the level that you're comfortable with, but every single one of us can do it more. So it's about doing it more. And I think that it's also about modeling authentic learning. So you have to share your own curiosity with your children. They should let you. They should see you researching, problem solving, diving into new skills simply because you enjoy it. It's good for them to see you know, I think I always say lifelong learning is caught more more than it's taught. And then you're emphasizing meaning over measurement. So like instead of asking how well did you do on that or you know, you can try saying what did you discover or what part did you enjoy most? So you shift shift that conversation a little bit, and you reinforce that message that learning is a meaningful journey. It's not just a means to an end. So it's a lot of self directed learning, which is basically, you know, kids taking initiative in their own learning, choosing what they want to explore, setting their own goals, solving problems, yeah, reflecting on their progress, and it's you know, it's it's basically trusting them to take the lead. And I always say to parents, how do you because sometimes parents ask me, well, how do you begin that? Like how do you start that? Especially if that's not the way you're used to schooling? And yeah, and one one way I think is just to offer more choices whenever possible, and to start small, you know, like that's that's a great way to start. You know, would you rather would you rather write a story or make a comic. Do you want to do that con option? Yes? Do you want to learn about animals or space today? You know, because I think choice cultivates agency and agency foster's engagement, and gradually children the more and more you do that is the more that they begin to take on more responsibility and make more decisions about the things that they want to do, the materials they want to explore, you know, what they want to learn about, and they get used to expressing what they think. You know, I think kids are used to expressing what they think in an artificial environment. It's like the teacher asked the question, or the parent ask the question, what do you think? I say? What you think? I think? You want me to hear, and yay, I've learned. You know, it's like no, if you actually let kids express what they think, what they feel, what their goals are, and frustrations, even when it's not something you want to hear. You have to be open to that part of it too, because that's how you create the environment for them to feel comfortable enough to do that. You know, Yes, I absolutely love it everything you're saying, and I could just listen forever and never because it's so so rich, what you're saying so important for us to hear that it's still possible as kids kiel older. And I think that's concern for many parents because, of course, when when my daughters were in preschool, that was like one of my favorite years to school because that awe and that wonder was there, because we didn't feel that limitation of we've got to open this textbook and teach this material for first grade, second grade and so forth, and so just to know that we can keep that sense of awe and wonder and to get like you said, autonomy, giving them that autonomy of freedom of choice choosing do you want to learn about this today or is there something else you'd rather learn about. And it's not necessarily a philosophy. For example, we're not saying that everybody needs to become an unschool or so to speak, if you are great, but like this, it's not about a philosophy. It's about giving space to our kids to become more self directed and that way they can really learn, Like really, yeah. I love it, yes for sure, yeah, yeah, it's uh, you know kids. Protecting that for our children, especially as they grow older, is something I have actually spent a lot of time thinking about It's something that interests me greatly because I think what happens, like you said, when as kids start to get older, we start to rush them more and they start to feel more rushed because the end is more quickly in sight and we're like, oh my gosh, what do I need to accomplished? To learn? Is not fun anymore? Do this and this and this that you can graduate high school, you know. And I think that, you know, it's like curiosity is so easy for younger kids, right, It's like how many they are, so they ask why for everything they're they're they're always questioning, you know. And I always say that that curiosity seems to wane and face under the pressure of academic achievements societal expectations as the kids are getting older, because of that transition and the shift in priorities. But I say, I say seems to fade, you know, in quotes, because it doesn't. It doesn't have to be that way. And I think that what happens is that the desire to explore and discover and question never actually really disappears. But I think it's it needs the right kind of environment to continue to flourish. And what ends up happening is that as kids get older, we stop caring about what that environment looks like. Yeah is saying a lot, that's saying we have to so we have we have to take responsibility for some of this that's happening with with just our kids not having the opportunity to yes, express themselves, to ask the questions because we are ultimately in a rush yes, and so that's what happens. We're you know, we're training it to the next thing. And you know, and for older kids, like it's some of the same things that it is for you and kids, it just looks different. So so older kids thrive when we give them opportunities to engage in hands on interest based projects and work. Right, So whether it's joining a musical theater group, or conducting a science experiment, or building a model, creating a piece of art, you know, designing a tech gadget like whatever under the sun, depends depends on their interests. Those activities allow them to explore their interests in real ways, and sometimes they get that messaging that although that kind of stuff doesn't count as school anymore, or that kind of stuff can't be somehow incorporated into your schooling and that's I think we do a disservice when we do that because one of the things we can also do more easily. Sometimes people find it more easy to just to integrate cross disciplinary projects, right. You know, so like a teen interested in history could create this historically accurate costume if they're interested in sewing, or you know, build a scale model like of a historical place, or you know, a music lover, you know, could record an EP. My my daughter loves philosophy, and she had this high school she finished like this whole high school history thing, and and she basically created a photography journal to demonstrate the different themes historical themes that she you know, like we we just have to kind of think outside the boxer a little and ask the kids for help. Sometimes our kids are so good at coming up with some of these things, like you say, well, how could you demonstrate that you know this well using this interest? And you know, sometimes like they can give a lot of good feedback about those things because it doesn't it shouldn't it shouldn't be boring. Yeah, well, I love what you just said. Thinking outside the box. It's like we don't have to have a prescribed way to show how our students are learning. There's so many different ways and avenues and think tools that we can use, and like you said, cross breeding those different disciplines or just letting those things overlap. There's so much we can do with that. So it doesn't have to be or this is your typical history, this is your you know, your standard way of showing your English grammar, Like why can't we combine them? Why can't we you know, bring some creative arts into it. Right, you have a student who loves theater, bring that into history, so history. Sure. Yeah, And I think the one more thing I'll say about that is is just aligning things to their real life as much as possible, you know, because there's a lot of topics and even in the curriculum, right that kids we want them to explore, but we don't ever say, well, how can we make this relevant for you? Like older kids that tend to be a little bit more interested in current events, right, like what's happening in the world, and they have more complex thoughts and opinions that they're eager to share when they're given a chance. But most of the time they're not necessarily given a chance to share those things. Even to be wrong, Like we have to cultivate that environment in our home where it's okay to be wrong and it's okay to grapple with you know, have misconceptions, But how will you ever find out that they have don't have a misconception if you're not just having that sort of like open dialogue and conversation. They need that safe space to be able to bounce ideas off of it and be able to form ideas. Yes, so yeah, I think that's so important. Thank you for bringing that up, because yeah, that's our kids really need the space, they need the spa and that's what's slowing down is all about. And then you talked about You've talked a lot about slowing down, and and when I think of that, I just wonder if moms are concerned that they're going to fall behind? Right what you were going to say? Yeah? Yeah, so how how are we going to get to that point where we're not worried that we're not doing enough right that it's all coming together? So slowing down does that equal falling behind? Like kind of break that down for us? Sure? Okay, first of all, I want to say those feelings are completely normal, completely normal, and to be honest, they often stem from a place of love, you know, because we are genuinely concerned about our children and we want to give them a good education. So I want to say that, you know, that's not those those feelings are are completely normal. But I do have to say we often we do tend to feel behind when we hold ourselves to a standard that's sometimes slightly disconnected from the way kids actually learn. So like, for example, we tend to feel behind when we're comparing ourselves to some sort of standard with rigid timelines like a scope and a sequence in a curriculum, or a calendar year or a checklist, you know, and all those things can be helpful, but they're they're tools that we use because learning in actuality is not as linear as we'd like it to be. And I say we'd like it to be because it just looks more clean cut and pretty that way, we can understand it better a lot of times. But learning is a little bit more, you know, non directional loops and deepens, zigzags, you know, stalls sometimes, sores unexpectedly, you know, blooms really pretty much in its own time. And I was just having Yeah, I was just having this conversation with my son five minutes before this this podcast actually, and we were talking about learning being fun and he was saying, you know, most kids went and say that learning is fun. I was like, well, then have you actually learned? Because learning is fun by nature, and so like I was like, when you want to beat a level in a video game, you know, even if it's hard, you dedicate yourself to do it, and you call that fun, right, So fun doesn't mean easy? So what is fun? So we had this whole cover now, but it really is, like it really makes you think about learning and what what learning actually looks like. So saying all that to say is behind even the right word we want to use, because the language we use really does matter. And we're when we do say that we're behind, we're assuming that there's one fixed path that we're supposed to follow. And homeschooling is the thing that's allow that should allow us to actually break free from that assumption and we have the freedom to notice how much learning is happening even outside of the plans and the curriculum, and to honor that just as much. And I want to be clear that, you know, sometimes people interpret that hear me say that and interpret me as meaning you think it's okay to do nothing, or your standards are not as high. And for me, it's it's not about lowering expectations or avoiding effort, because as homeschoolers, we care deeply, like I said, about giving our kids a meaningful education, but we can also care a little bit more about how learning actually does happen, and we can make space for that. You know, messiness of learning That is also beautiful, because learning can be neat, it can be disorganized, straightforward, complex, you know, predictable, wildly, erratic, all of those things. And I think we just have to ask ourselves better questions. You know, we can't only ask are we doing enough? Because that makes us feel like we're behind. We have to ask better questions. Are we growing? How are we learning how to learn in what ways? What does progress look like day to day versus over time? You know, what parts of our experience are part of our child's story of progress even when it doesn't look like forward motion. Are we becoming better thinkers? What new skills have we actually gained or started developing? What accomplishments have we experienced? And who have we had to become to accomplish those things. How are we relating well to others? You know? How is our relationship with the Lord? What are we curious about? Are we connected in the ways that matter to our church community, o, our communities where we live, our home community. Like we just have to ask better questions, you know, And yeah, yeah. Yeah, asking better questions. And what you're describing sounds like what we call growth mindset versus the mindset. And it's like you're asking the right questions. It's like not asking Well, here's here's the line that we used to toe when we were younger, and the mindset that we had growing up that this is what makes you behind, and this is what makes you smart, quote unquote, this is what makes you slow, this is what So those labels we have to dismantle them because that's what's going to free us to really enjoy that curiosity of learning with our kids and helping them to adopt this or adapt to this growth mindset as well, because they're watching us and they're here our language. And if we're saying smart versus not, or if we're saying behind and you're slow and you're you haven't gotten it yet, and we need to make this grade if we're that rigid with our kids, and of course they're going to you know, soak in that bag. They feed off of it, they feel it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I am so glad that you are kind of like I would say, pioneering, but like you're helping to helping us in the homeschool space to be free to think along these terms without having to necessarily say, well, we don't you know, we don't learn all day in a certain way, therefore we're unschooling, or therefore we're interest led, or there's a label. It doesn't have to be a label. There can be, but what we're saying, it's just it's just helping our kids with their their curiosity and allow us to learn within that space. Exactly exactly. I love what you do, and so tell us about so we have your your book is the name of your book is the Joy of Slow Right, So tell us about your Do you have a coaching program that kind of accompanies it? Yes, So I have a coaching program that I have called the Thrive at Home Group. It's a group coaching program. I also do one on one consultations and things, but the coaching program is pretty much. We use the book actually since I you know, since I have, we go through the principles in the book. And I love to work with moms who want to grow. Basically, that's who I really target the the the coaching program for. And you know, I always think about my journey. Homeschooling my kids has helped me become when I say, homeschool moms want to grow, you know, homeschooling my kids has always helped me to become more self aware, you know, more curious of my own things, you know more it has like blossomed me as a person. And I think that that's the unexpected benefit sometimes, you know, if you especially like modeling all the things you want your children to become. You know, we just we were continuing to show our kids that adults continue to be interesting people and whatever that whatever that that looks like. And I and I think that that's you know, people in that mindset who just you know, want to do do things better with their children, want to slow down and really capture the best parts of the experience, but also want to grow. That's uh, that's who the program is for. So yeah, we do definitely go through I thought about I'm not really sure yet. You know, I've spent a year thinking about it. I need to make some decisions, but I was thinking about I developed a course. It's not it's not out anywhere because I haven't put it out, but I developed a course to go with the book, and I was thinking, you know, and working around the idea of if that's separate from the coaching program and who I can serve by doing what? But right right? Well, I love I love that you're exploring different ways to help to help parents, and so I think that is part of the growth mindset, and you are like exhibiting that and showing your kids like Mom's working on these projects. Mom is doing, you know, has her thing that she's helping other people with. And so I love that you're an example to your kids and too many mamas out here who actually want to kind of do the work you're doing to coache, to write books, to train, to teach outside of homeschoolingcause one day, you know, when our kids are going, there's other areas of our lives that we also want to explore. And so you're you're doing that now and showing that you know there's there's a path to that and you can. You can have the freedom to explore those things as as you see fit and as the Lord allows those opportunities for you. But yes, as one of yeah, so, now tell us how our listeners can get a hold of your book, The Joy of Slow, and also how they can join your coaching program. Sure. So the book is available in audiobook, print, digital form, and it's wherever books are sold. So you can ask word at the library, you can go to your local bookstore, or you can check out Amazon and you should be able to find it. I would say, if you want to stay in touch with me, you want more information about the program, definitely sign up for my email list and you can do that at Lesliemartine dot com. I have a blog there, resources there. But if you're on my email list, I tend to give you a little bit more that you can't find other places. I'm constantly sending for them free resources and things to help you. I just want to serve you and help you and meet you where you're at. So awesome that sounds like that. The best place to reach you is your website. Okay, and then before we go, I would love for you to just share any word of encouragement that you might have for homeschool moms just before before we say goodbye for the day, Because I know that how important it is to just get that little bit of encouragement to keep going and to do what they're doing. So what would you what would you say to moms listening today? Sure, that's beautiful. You might have heard me say it before, and I want to reiterate it again that homeschooling very much can be a joyful experience, and we are always likely to find joy when we're living a meaningful life. Remember that, or when our lives are full of experiences that basically hold an intrinsic value for us. And in the end, slow slowing down is an effort to be more balanced. Why because balance helps us make better choices for ourselves or better choices for our families that are both sensible but that are also meaningful, and that meaning is tied to our values. So do things that you value make the best choices for your kids. It's not about a philosophy, it's not about anything. Do any of those that make you happy, but you know, make you know, make choices that are connected to the things that you value. Oh, I love that Leslie, thank you so much. You have been a pleasure today. Thank you for talking to me about the joy of slow I'm actually feeling more peaceful and calm. Listen than so great. Thank you so much, thank you, I truly enjoy this. Also, thank you so much to Mitria. You're welcome.