00:00:11
I just love the world of molecules and I always who, who
00:00:16
doesn't? Yeah.
00:00:17
Yeah it but I just you know, every day that I work as a
00:00:21
biochemist, I just in a sense transport myself to this other
00:00:25
world where you have these molecular systems that are
00:00:30
Engage in all kinds of activities.
00:00:31
And so, I just see myself as a traveler, to an alien world in,
00:00:37
and so, to me, it's a lot of fun movie.
00:00:39
What was the movie years ago? Was it 80s, like the Honey?
00:00:42
I Shrunk, the Kids wasn't the one where they went in.
00:00:45
Is that the one where they went into a human body or is that a
00:00:47
different movie could probably be?
00:00:49
I vaguely remember what you're talking about, but I don't know,
00:00:53
think, actually it may not have been that movie but isn't that
00:00:57
time period where they're actually in a spaceship and Go
00:01:00
into a human body and they're flying around they'll that's by
00:01:03
anyway. A third grader could map out
00:01:06
what I thought a cell was made of but it's not quite like that,
00:01:09
is it? No a single cell.
00:01:12
Well, what's the size of a cell of a human cell, a human cell.
00:01:16
It would be lets see about twenty to Thirty twenty to
00:01:23
Thirty microns in size so a micron it would be one millionth
00:01:28
of a meter. Some cells like that.
00:01:31
Egg cell, a human egg cell can be about 200 microns in size,
00:01:35
and you can actually see it, you know, with, with the naked eye,
00:01:43
it's not, you know, it's barely barely perceptible, but most
00:01:47
cells are about 30 to 40 microns in size.
00:01:50
A bacterial cell would be typically about 1 Micron or so
00:01:55
in size. So they're very small So I got
00:01:58
pinky average person's pinky finger, how many cells would
00:02:01
that take? Oh, I don't know, I mean,
00:02:03
there's I there's about a trillion cells that make up the
00:02:07
human body. So, but I'm not quite sure, you
00:02:10
know, for a pinky. Yeah.
00:02:11
But that would translate to one of the things that's kind of
00:02:14
weird is that we now have discovered that each of us as
00:02:19
human beings have this complex symbiotic, relationship with a
00:02:23
whole collection of bacterial species.
00:02:26
And there's actually Ten times more bacterial species
00:02:30
associated with our body as human cells and so we have about
00:02:36
a trillion human cells and about 10 trillion bacterial cells that
00:02:39
are part of our physical makeup and those bacteria are really
00:02:44
very important. They're kind of part of us, I
00:02:47
guess. Yeah, so I have to get this
00:02:51
question out of the way. It maybe I don't have to talk to
00:02:55
a biochemist about this but or Dust.
00:02:59
Can we talk about dust for a minute?
00:03:01
So it is dust. How much of dust is actually
00:03:06
human cells? I get, I don't know
00:03:09
percentage-wise, I do know that, you know, a significant amount
00:03:14
of dust is actually, you know, the how come why are we shedding
00:03:18
so much cells to make up or we have to like clean them up every
00:03:23
Saturday morning? Well, you know it's you know
00:03:29
because at the surface of our skin it consists of dead skin.
00:03:32
Dead cells that are constantly being replaced.
00:03:34
Aced. Yeah.
00:03:35
And so, it's just, you know, part of that, that process of,
00:03:40
you know, renewal I guess Before we dive into the small world of
00:03:46
cells. So your background, you had
00:03:51
mentioned your dad for a second. So you come from a Muslim
00:03:56
background? Yes.
00:03:57
Practicing Muslim family background.
00:04:00
What does that look like? Like on a day-to-day basis?
00:04:03
Yeah, well, you know, I had a little bit of an unusual home
00:04:08
life along those lines. My father was a Devout Muslim,
00:04:13
who, as I mentioned was born in India, or maybe it didn't, but
00:04:17
he was born in India and then came to the United States
00:04:20
through Canada. And he was very much again, a
00:04:25
devout Muslim. He was also a nuclear physicist.
00:04:29
So he was a man of science. And my mom was from a German
00:04:33
background and her parents were devout Catholics, but she when
00:04:39
she met and married, my father was a Dissing Catholic for her
00:04:43
religion and it wasn't very important for my father,
00:04:46
religion was all important and so, very interesting
00:04:50
relationship growing up in our home.
00:04:53
So I did have some exposure to Catholicism through my
00:04:56
grandparents but it was primarily, you know, growing up
00:05:00
in a home where my father's you. No faith in Islam was really
00:05:05
front and center. And when I was a teenager, I
00:05:09
became very serious about exploring is Islam.
00:05:12
I recited the shahada which is the Declaration that Allah is,
00:05:17
the one true God. And Muhammad is his one true
00:05:19
prophet, and I learned how to pray began to read from from
00:05:26
English translations of the Quran and spent about a year and
00:05:29
a half. Really seriously pursuing the
00:05:33
idea of becoming a Muslim or really embracing Islam, as my in
00:05:38
a religious system. But as a child were you, because
00:05:44
of your dad, were you praying, five times a day facing Mecca
00:05:49
and these kinds of things? Yeah.
00:05:51
So did you, would you say a tradition?
00:05:54
A Muslim tradition, but you had an embraced it yet.
00:05:58
Is it full truth delivered by is that where you were?
00:06:01
Yeah, that's probably where I was at, you know, as I was, you
00:06:05
know, we, we, I grew up in, in West Virginia.
00:06:08
And at that time, there were Not a mosque that we could have any
00:06:13
kind of access to. And so there was a Muslim
00:06:16
Community that we were Loosely plugged into and occasionally,
00:06:21
someone would host a prayer meeting at their home and people
00:06:25
would travel there and pray together and then would have a
00:06:30
time of of a gathering where people would share a meal
00:06:35
together and and that type of thing.
00:06:37
So I would obviously go with my my Father and would take part in
00:06:42
prayers and things like that, but it wasn't really until I was
00:06:46
a teenager where again, I took it seriously, but there wasn't,
00:06:49
it wasn't like, there was any kind of place where I could get
00:06:53
any kind of formal catechism into the Islamic faith or
00:06:57
anything like that. It was really what, my father
00:06:59
taught me and that type of thing.
00:07:03
And so I picked up Islam, you really from him and from his,
00:07:08
his understanding, his perspective.
00:07:11
My father was very devout but he was also modern in terms of his
00:07:15
expression of his faith. And and I see a lot of Muslims
00:07:19
around the world who hold it, who are very modern who are
00:07:23
devout Muslims. But again are very modern in
00:07:27
their expression. Unfortunately, much of our view
00:07:30
of Islam is actually shaped by Islamic terrorism, you know?
00:07:35
And that is an unfair and fundamentalistic Islam and
00:07:39
that's really a nun. unfair depiction of what you know, many
00:07:44
how many Muslims live So when did you come to it a true Faith
00:07:52
or at least that you thought for sure?
00:07:55
There's something Divine. Yeah, well after about a year
00:07:59
and a half of really exploring Islam, I gave up on it for a
00:08:04
number of reasons and I, you know, can go into some of the
00:08:08
details if you're interested. But I and I even began to
00:08:12
question if God even existed. And this was about the time I
00:08:16
was leaving high school going. Off to college.
00:08:18
I was enrolled in a, in a Pre-Med program, initially then
00:08:23
became a chemistry major. But I was taking a lot of
00:08:25
courses in chemistry and biology, and was really exposed
00:08:29
to kind of a scientific perspective, a scientific
00:08:33
worldview, if you will. And the biology courses, I
00:08:36
taught were very much evolutionary mechanisms, Explain
00:08:41
the origin and the design and the history of life, we don't
00:08:45
need a Creator to account. For everything that we see.
00:08:49
And so, as a young man looking to go into the Sciences, I
00:08:54
embrace that that message in, that fuel, that type of
00:08:57
agnosticism in me, were in which I wasn't really sure if God
00:09:01
existed or not. And it wasn't that question.
00:09:04
No longer really became that important to me.
00:09:07
I would just be, I became enthralled with with science and
00:09:11
wanted to become a scientist. And so I, you know, accepted
00:09:15
kind of a again at Canary perspective on the origin of and
00:09:20
history of life. And it really wasn't until
00:09:23
graduate school that I had kind of a change in perspective in
00:09:29
and that was driven at initially by by science, by really coming
00:09:35
to a deep. And in a much more complete
00:09:38
appreciation of the complexity of biochemical systems as well
00:09:43
as being exposed to their elegance and sophistication.
00:09:47
Ation and Ingenuity. Those those features to me were
00:09:51
astounding and the more that I learned about biochemistry, the
00:09:55
more amazing and remarkable biochemical systems appeared to
00:10:00
be and I began to ask the question.
00:10:02
Well, how do we explain where these systems come from?
00:10:05
Now, as a graduate student, I wasn't happy with the answer.
00:10:09
I would have had as an undergraduate student which was
00:10:12
Evolution did it. Here's some kind of very vague a
00:10:15
hand waving explanation, I would accept primarily on the
00:10:19
authority. You know, of my professors.
00:10:22
Now, I was a graduate student that I was taught that you had
00:10:25
to become an independent thinker, that you looked at the
00:10:28
evidence and you drew your own conclusions regardless of what
00:10:32
other people thought, or what other people claimed.
00:10:35
And so when I began to ask the question, how do we explain
00:10:38
where these systems come from? This is called scientifically
00:10:42
the origin of Life problem and I began to look at detailed
00:10:46
explanations. Or sought after detailed
00:10:49
explanations. I very quickly reached the point
00:10:52
where it's, like, none of these work.
00:10:54
These don't, these explanations don't work.
00:10:56
And so you have these incredibly beautiful systems and there's no
00:11:00
other way to explain them from a side, you know, a naturalistic
00:11:05
materialistic perspective. They must be designed, they must
00:11:10
come from a mind and so, and that's not good ones.
00:11:14
I was going to say, that's not going to from a faith
00:11:16
perspective, that's going to be from a sign.
00:11:17
Yes, so let me ask you this science to me, when you get that
00:11:24
far, don't even atheist scientist believe that.
00:11:28
This is by Design, or it appears to be by designed, this isn't
00:11:33
just Faith people coming in and trying to put their worldview
00:11:37
into it. It seems like that.
00:11:38
Worldview comes out of it, but the scientific Community isn't
00:11:42
to me anti-god, it's just not in the formula, it's just not part.
00:11:47
It has to be a natural answer, right?
00:11:50
You can't come with a supernatural answer or it's not
00:11:52
science. Even if it equals a supernatural
00:11:55
answer. Yes.
00:11:56
That your personal faith goes. Yeah.
00:11:58
That that's very perceptive because in science in the twenty
00:12:04
five dollar term is called methodological naturalism.
00:12:07
And the idea here is that you, when you engage in science, you
00:12:12
cannot appeal to agency, you can't appeal to anything that
00:12:17
deals with the Supernatural. Everything has to be a
00:12:20
mechanistic natural process explanation, right?
00:12:25
And and so, you know, a priori before you even begin, you've
00:12:30
ruled out a particular category or class of explanations but to
00:12:35
me it really did look like biochemical systems were
00:12:39
designed that they came from the work of a mind.
00:12:41
Now most biologists actually agree that All systems,
00:12:48
including biochemical systems have the appearance of design.
00:12:52
In fact, when I was a graduate student in the 1980s, there are
00:12:56
two books written by Francis Crick that were extremely
00:12:59
popular. One of them was called what a
00:13:03
mad Pursuit. It was his autobiographical
00:13:05
account of the discovery of the structure of DNA, which he won
00:13:09
the Nobel Prize for and Crick concludes.
00:13:12
The book by saying biologists must constantly keep in mind
00:13:16
that what they see. Is not designed, right?
00:13:19
And so the first intuition you have, when you look at biology
00:13:23
is that it's designed that there's it appears to be
00:13:26
designed for a purpose Creek. Wrote another book called on the
00:13:32
origin of life. I'm, I'm drawing a blank on the
00:13:34
title of the book now, but in that book, he makes this claim
00:13:40
that an honest man armed with all the information that we
00:13:43
would have today could be justified in concluding.
00:13:47
Leading that life appears to be a miracle.
00:13:50
So many are the things that would have to be required to get
00:13:53
it going. And so here's a Nobel Laureate.
00:13:55
The, you know the the biochemists biochemist, he's
00:13:59
basically saying by all biochemical systems look like
00:14:03
they're designed and we don't have an explanation from an
00:14:06
origin of Life standpoint. Those are the same scientific
00:14:09
conclusions that I drew Creek being an atheist, was deeply
00:14:14
committed to finding a materialistic.
00:14:17
Explanation. For whatever reason, I was open
00:14:20
to the idea that maybe there was a creator that brought
00:14:24
everything into existence and that then led me to the
00:14:27
question. Well, who is that creator?
00:14:30
And that sent me on a journey now, looking for the identity of
00:14:34
the Creator. And that's where I ended up.
00:14:37
That led me on a path that resulted in my conversion to
00:14:40
Christianity. And so that's still quite a
00:14:45
leap. I mean, you know, there's even
00:14:48
the philosophy of, you know, universalism that, you know, all
00:14:53
roads lead up to the same Mountain, you don't have to move
00:14:57
away from the traditions of your father's.
00:14:59
If You decide that God's real? What makes you go to a opposing
00:15:05
if you will religions such as Christianity.
00:15:08
What what made, what put you in that direction?
00:15:10
Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned
00:15:12
this idea of universalism because that's essentially where
00:15:15
I was headed as a graduate student, you know, and part of
00:15:19
it, I think is understandable. My mom was from a Catholic
00:15:22
background. My father was a Muslim, you
00:15:24
know, and, you know, and I, as I looked at the different
00:15:27
religions of the world, they seem to me too.
00:15:30
Teach the same thing at least from a moral standpoint and I
00:15:33
just began to reason. Well maybe these different
00:15:35
religions were just different ways that this Creator
00:15:39
communicated to different people at different times.
00:15:42
And in human history in that, that perspective is very common,
00:15:49
but as I learned later on in hindsight, that was really an
00:15:52
untenable position because while the different religions of the
00:15:56
world, teach the same thing from a moral standpoint.
00:15:59
They Teach very different things about the nature of reality, the
00:16:02
nature, of God. And and so they all can't be
00:16:05
true either. None of them are true or only
00:16:08
one of them is true, but they all can't be true.
00:16:11
But again, this is kind site and, and it was through that
00:16:15
process that and I was engaged to be married at the time.
00:16:20
My, my wife-to-be grew up in a Christian Home, drifted away
00:16:24
from her faith. And then, re dedicated her life
00:16:27
to Christ, we were separated. I was in graduate school.
00:16:30
She was finishing up her undergraduate degree and so she
00:16:34
went to an Easter Service with her mom, re dedicated her life
00:16:37
to Christ and began to share with me.
00:16:40
And, you know, my response was look at this is what you're
00:16:43
interested in. That's great.
00:16:45
I don't know that I'm interested in Christianity, but she as we
00:16:51
were preparing for the wedding, the pastor, her pastor, who was
00:16:54
going to marry us, wanted to meet with me.
00:16:57
And, and he Shared his faith and he asked me the question.
00:17:02
Have you ever read the Bible? And the hints who was no is and,
00:17:06
and he has well, how do you know that it's not true?
00:17:09
It's like, well, that's a really good point.
00:17:10
And so I thought that look, if my wife is a Christian, I at
00:17:14
least thought to understand what what Christianity is about.
00:17:16
So I, at least thought to make some effort to explore what
00:17:20
scripture teaches and he was reading through the gospel of
00:17:23
Matthew in particularly The Sermon on the Mount, that I
00:17:27
encountered the person of Christ to the Pages of scripture here,
00:17:31
is this person that I found to be very attractive?
00:17:36
He was teaching these things that I knew were true in my
00:17:39
heart. But the, the requirements for
00:17:42
living on authentically righteous life were beyond what
00:17:45
I could do I could do and and and and so I was confronted with
00:17:50
the reality of what I would Christians would call Sin.
00:17:55
The fact that I had not living up to the standard that I know
00:17:59
that. I should live up to.
00:18:01
And, and so here is this person that was so attractive to me,
00:18:07
who is also condemning me with his words and one of my wife's
00:18:12
pastors friend, gave me a little when he's little booklets on,
00:18:17
how do you become a Christian? And so I pulled it out at that
00:18:20
point and I read through it and and that was the roadmap for for
00:18:26
my conversion. But there was something that
00:18:28
happened to me. Um, that was, I would call a
00:18:34
religious experience when I was reading through The Sermon on
00:18:38
the Mount, because there was a point when I reach this, this
00:18:41
conviction, that I Think Jesus is who Christians claim him to
00:18:44
be. There was this pres I was
00:18:47
reading this passage of scripture in a chemistry lab in
00:18:52
the evening. When everybody had gone home, I
00:18:53
was there by myself just sitting at a lab bench, reading the
00:18:57
gospel of Matthew in The Sermon on the Mount.
00:18:59
And I had this overwhelming sense that there was a person in
00:19:03
the room with me that in felt that presence felt so real.
00:19:08
And, and at, that was at that point that I had this
00:19:11
overwhelming conviction, that Jesus is who he claims to be.
00:19:15
And that led me then to pick up that booklet and to read through
00:19:19
it. And so, it was, you know, to me,
00:19:24
it was in theological terms. It was God revealed through the
00:19:29
Of nature through his fingerprints in the creation.
00:19:33
And you know, encountering the person of Christ through the
00:19:36
pages of scripture but also having that that real-life
00:19:40
experience where I and I've never had that experience.
00:19:44
After that time, I never had that experience before that
00:19:47
time. And in fact I could never ever
00:19:51
walk away from my faith as a Christian not because of the
00:19:55
evidence his scientific or historical or philosophical.
00:19:59
It's because of that experience. That was such a rail experience
00:20:03
that, that that, you know, and then in after the fact, I began
00:20:09
to look at is our scientific evidence for the Christian
00:20:12
faith. I do that there was scientific
00:20:14
evidence for God, is there are the creation accounts?
00:20:17
Reliable is the, the historical aspects of the text reliable
00:20:22
and, and over the years, I've discovered that they are.
00:20:25
But to me, it was that religious in Since that really was, what
00:20:32
convinced me that Christianity was true?
00:20:36
Well, that's it because you can study and come to the conclusion
00:20:38
like the atheists you mentioned that this looks like design but
00:20:42
then turn around say but it's not, you know, it's head now
00:20:45
that you're getting there or you can look at scripture and say,
00:20:49
this is great moral teaching but he's nothing Divine.
00:20:52
But scripture says, if itself it takes the Holy Spirit to show us
00:20:56
the kingdom for we can ever see it so you get from a head
00:21:01
knowledge but it takes The actual presence or what?
00:21:06
I call Divine encounter, any way to get you to that heart.
00:21:10
Place, that this isn't your head can get there.
00:21:14
But you can't comprehend it. It has to be a supernatural
00:21:17
comprehension, and I'd like to back up a little bit, even
00:21:22
before we hit the shell yet, but The Sermon on the Mount is very
00:21:26
interesting to me. And so for people listening, I
00:21:28
want to back up and see if I got this, right.
00:21:31
I mean, there's a whole new testament and it's funny because
00:21:33
I hear other people say, I've had a rabbi on Jewish.
00:21:37
Rabbi say that he finally read the New Testament as a college
00:21:40
student and he didn't get through the genealogies of You
00:21:44
and it became a Believer, that's what did it for him, the first
00:21:49
like chapter of the New Testament and then you mentioned
00:21:52
like a specific sermon but it seems to me what you're saying
00:21:57
is a few reading The Sermon on the Mount, you can take it one
00:22:00
of two ways. The wrong way which is, well if
00:22:03
I'm Gonna Last, I might as well commit adultery.
00:22:05
It's the same said yet out or you take it as what it's trying
00:22:08
to tell you is You can't earn goodness.
00:22:15
You can't earn salvation. A human will never be good
00:22:19
enough to be with the Divine Creator because maybe you didn't
00:22:24
kill, maybe you didn't do adultery but have you lost it?
00:22:29
Have you hate it. Somebody while you're off the
00:22:32
Mark just like if you killed somebody and as far as being a
00:22:36
sinner and I think that's what you're saying, right?
00:22:39
Isn't that hit you in some way? Yes, that all other religions
00:22:43
are based on Works in The Sermon on the Mount says you're never
00:22:46
going to do it. Yeah I'm never gonna do it.
00:22:49
Yeah, yeah that that was exactly the way that it impacted me.
00:22:54
Was I I know this is true, I know that I shouldn't Harbor
00:22:58
hate in my heart towards another person II shouldn't lost after
00:23:03
you know other women you know or or after women you know that
00:23:09
there's a integrity. That is internal that I that I
00:23:14
constantly violated. And so, even though I would have
00:23:17
considered myself to be a good person, you know, right.
00:23:22
I wasn't really in my heart of hearts, a truly good person.
00:23:31
So into cells, I don't know much and this may not be a good place
00:23:37
to start, but I do tell you the little I know that blows me away
00:23:41
and even but understand it. So I am this is your I was
00:23:44
showing you earlier that. I know it's 2008 to but this
00:23:48
book here this isn't for the faint of heart so I appreciate
00:23:53
the glossary in the back. That tells me what words mean
00:23:57
the cells designed And how chemistry reveals the Creator's
00:24:00
Artistry. And I'm all of the level where I
00:24:04
have to see these little cartoon Graphics, you know animations or
00:24:08
whatever, but then it helps me understand in text what's what's
00:24:12
being said? But one thing that stood out to
00:24:14
me as I can't get past the actual what appears to be like
00:24:21
mechanical Motors or machinery. In the cells.
00:24:26
So there were flesh made machines that function like we
00:24:31
discovered later Rd in our bodies from before we created
00:24:36
them out of steel and stuff. Can you talk about that?
00:24:38
Yeah, but yeah. Well you made to me that's one
00:24:40
of the the the features of biochemical systems that is
00:24:45
absolutely mind-blowing is, you know, they're referred to as bio
00:24:49
molecular machines. They, you know, and sometimes
00:24:52
people will kind of Using as an analogy talk about the different
00:24:58
molecules in the cell was the cells Machinery.
00:25:01
But there actually are protein complexes in the cell as you're
00:25:06
pointing out that are literally machines and these things, you
00:25:10
know, one of them that is my favorite is something called ATP
00:25:14
synthase. And it literally is an
00:25:16
electrically powered rotary motor that has a motor.
00:25:20
It has a drive shaft. The cam there turbines.
00:25:25
There's a Later that's part of its structure.
00:25:27
And these are not just simply a mythological terms, these are
00:25:32
there literally are molecular Motors.
00:25:34
In fact, there are scientists that are trying to build what
00:25:37
are called Nano devices. These are molecular scale
00:25:41
constructs. And one of the challenges is,
00:25:43
how do you generate coordinated, controlled movement in Motion in
00:25:48
these Nano devices? And one idea that people have
00:25:51
explored is literally purifying these molecular.
00:25:55
Our machines from the cell and interfacing them with the, the
00:26:00
Nano devices that we are building where these literally
00:26:03
are being used as Motors in that context.
00:26:07
But but to me, what blows my mind away.
00:26:10
And this is the type of thing that keeps me up at night is, is
00:26:14
the the discovery that the cells Machinery, that manipulates DNA
00:26:20
is literally operating like a computer system at its most
00:26:24
basic level. And so DNA, is this long
00:26:29
molecule? That's it's a molecular chain
00:26:31
made up of subunits discrete, molecules that bind together to
00:26:36
form kind of like a chain. And, and you can think of those
00:26:39
different subunits is being in effect digital information.
00:26:44
Because it's the sequence of those subunits that contains the
00:26:47
information that the cell needs to build proteins.
00:26:51
And so sometimes, you might hear people talk about DNA Harbors,
00:26:55
the Attic letters and things like that.
00:26:57
Or it's a genetic alphabet. Or it's an instruction manual.
00:27:00
It literally is its in, its digital information.
00:27:04
And in in that, digital information is manipulated by
00:27:08
all kinds of machines in the cell for different purposes.
00:27:12
And when they do it, it's literally a computer operation.
00:27:16
In fact, there are there's a computer scientist at the
00:27:19
University of Southern California that recognize this
00:27:23
and has been. Launched a whole new area of
00:27:28
nanotechnology where people are literally building computer
00:27:31
systems, out of DNA and the Machinery in the cell.
00:27:36
That manipulates DNA. And these computer systems are
00:27:39
found in these little tiny test tubes that are extremely small,
00:27:43
they're wet computers. There there's no Machinery.
00:27:47
It's all wet. It's all a salute.
00:27:50
Everything is happening in solution and these are more
00:27:53
powerful than the most powerful. Powerful silicon-based, super
00:27:57
computer system that we've ever built and and it's because you
00:28:02
can do these massive parallel operations all at once, but
00:28:06
there are literally problems that super computer systems
00:28:09
can't solve that you can solve with DNA computers and and so
00:28:15
what's amazing is not only it. So all these machines that we're
00:28:19
talking about these protein machines, that information to
00:28:23
build them is encoded within DNA.
00:28:25
In, in the Machinery, that manipulates DNA, that access
00:28:29
that information to build those those protein machines in itself
00:28:33
is a computer system. And, you know, so, when you see
00:28:38
that kind of structure to the cell, how can you conclude
00:28:43
anything? Other than this is the, this is
00:28:45
the work of a mind because we would never look at a computer
00:28:50
system. And think this is just simply
00:28:52
the out workings of some type of chemical evolution.
00:28:55
Lucien we recognize the Brilliance that requires to
00:28:58
build you know computer systems and what the best we can do as
00:29:03
human designers is really laughable compared to the
00:29:07
sophistication of the computer systems that are really running
00:29:11
the cells operations. What is running them?
00:29:17
So, when you get down to talk about, they're not like machines
00:29:22
or computers. They are machines and computers
00:29:26
and how our cells and bodies function, but what is driving
00:29:30
it? So, in the real world, it takes
00:29:33
electricity, it takes some kind of gas, powered something.
00:29:38
What, it's not just a pumping heart at the level.
00:29:44
What is the life in there? What is keeping all of that
00:29:47
moving and working? Yeah.
00:29:49
Well you know molecules have have what's what scientists
00:29:54
would call potential energy and that potential energy can then
00:29:58
be converted into into a kin to an active form of energy that
00:30:04
carries out different operations.
00:30:06
And so it's essentially the energy that is found in the
00:30:09
molecules. That's driving those those
00:30:11
interactions. But molecules Let's have this.
00:30:15
This highly sophisticated capacity for self recognition so
00:30:20
if you get the right molecules at the right concentrations in
00:30:25
the in a in a confined space, they're going to begin to
00:30:29
interact with each other according to the rules of
00:30:32
chemistry and physics and that energy, for those interactions
00:30:36
is again, coming from the molecules themselves.
00:30:39
They, they have energy that's stored within their, within
00:30:43
their makeup. And that's what's driving
00:30:46
everything. But you have these very
00:30:48
sophisticated systems that will, once you get the right level, it
00:30:54
just will everything will kick in on its own and start start
00:30:58
operating. Its where does the potential
00:31:02
energy come from? It's essentially stored in the
00:31:05
chemical bonds and I getting, am I going backwards to the chicken
00:31:10
in the egg question? Like, does it?
00:31:12
It doesn't have to start with. With an energy and then itself
00:31:16
sustains, or how does it begin? Or is that what we're talking
00:31:21
about is, those are just the bigger questions of?
00:31:24
Yeah. Well, you know, I mean, you
00:31:26
know, everything in the universe that is made up of matter, has
00:31:30
energy associated with it and so molecules are no different and
00:31:36
that that energy can exist in a in a, you know, are the
00:31:40
molecules can exist in a high energy state or in a low energy
00:31:44
state. And they're going to operate in
00:31:46
such a way that they're giving up at energy to go from a high
00:31:50
energy state to the low energy State.
00:31:52
And as they do that, that's the energy that's liberated, that's
00:31:56
powering their operations. So, you know, so for example,
00:32:00
when I talked about ATP synthase, which is, you know,
00:32:03
this this electrically, powered rotary motor.
00:32:06
It's embedded in a membrane that literally is a functions, like a
00:32:11
capacitor. And you have protons which are
00:32:15
positively charged at a higher concentration on one side than
00:32:19
on the other side. And that, that that is
00:32:22
essentially like a battery where you're storing charge.
00:32:27
And so, when you open up the channels in that motor, those
00:32:32
protons will flow through the motor and they that flow is
00:32:35
releasing energy because you're it, the flow of charge is
00:32:38
current and it literally is activating or Narrating the
00:32:43
movement within that electrically, powered rotary
00:32:45
motor and so, you know, the the energy is, is they're all around
00:32:52
us, right? And it's just part of the
00:32:54
molecules, If this wasn't intelligent design, which
00:33:00
intelligent design on a know. If we mention our just assumed
00:33:03
it assumes an intelligent designer, yeah, which takes you
00:33:07
down the faith path anymore. The other is that it's over time
00:33:15
and it's random chance and billions of years creates this.
00:33:23
But then why do we die? If that's the I guess my point
00:33:27
is if something could become so complex over billions of years,
00:33:32
we live for such a small amount of time in these super complex
00:33:37
organisms that began decaying in going to the Grave with that.
00:33:42
You know decades. I know it's more of a what that
00:33:47
it's a faith question too, but I'm wondering from like an
00:33:50
atheistic scientific Viewpoint to those conversations ever.
00:33:54
Come up that a for that complex and we've evolved over so many
00:33:58
years. Why are we self-sustaining other
00:34:04
than science in the realm of medical where we come up with an
00:34:07
outward machine, right? Why don't these fantastic
00:34:10
machines in door? Yeah, well, I can answer it and
00:34:14
you can easy on a faith level but if that's not where you're
00:34:17
coming for you, what do you say to that?
00:34:19
Yeah, you know. Well, I be that's one of the big
00:34:21
questions in evolutionary biology.
00:34:24
Believe it or not is, is why did why do organisms evolve in such?
00:34:30
Way that they have a finite life expectancy, a finite Lifetime.
00:34:35
And this is true, whether it's animals plants or fungi, or what
00:34:39
have you because in principle, you're right.
00:34:42
There's no reason why anyone should necessarily die apart
00:34:46
from an accident or or something like that, right?
00:34:49
Work, or maybe a disease are what's the, what's the point,
00:34:52
right? I mean, billions of years of a,
00:34:55
just a random miracles for a couple decades of life.
00:34:59
I mean what? So what?
00:35:00
Yeah, I mean we try to make sense of it by saying, well,
00:35:04
it's for the Next Generation where they're only gonna live up
00:35:07
if they're like a certain amount of decades and it just almost
00:35:10
becomes pointless. What you do there is this idea
00:35:13
that you know is becoming increasingly legitimised in the
00:35:19
academy in in pop in in culture at large it's called
00:35:22
transhumanism. And in the idea behind that is
00:35:26
that we should use technology. To modify our biological makeup
00:35:33
use Gene editing, right? Brain computer interfaces to
00:35:36
create kind of a human machine hybrid, like a cyborg that we
00:35:42
should develop anti-aging technology to to arrest.
00:35:46
And we maybe even reverse the aging process and the ultimate
00:35:50
motivation behind this is is the recognition that we're going to
00:35:55
die as human beings and that people that are advocating.
00:36:00
For transhumanism. See death is wrong, right?
00:36:04
They see. Death is is something that
00:36:06
somehow is wrong, that it somehow unnatural and that they
00:36:10
want to try to use science and technology to attain a type of
00:36:15
immortality, you know. And and so that's really
00:36:19
exposing. I think this idea that you're
00:36:22
bringing up is that in every, every person has this sense of
00:36:27
hope, purpose and Destiny. That that we see our existence
00:36:32
that goes beyond this physical material world and that and we
00:36:37
see death as unnatural right. That it's the enemy shoots and
00:36:41
death is natural. I have a there's a dog sitting
00:36:44
here. That is has a life expectancy,
00:36:48
has a great life and doesn't seem to be concerned that it's
00:36:52
going to die. Probably in the next decade.
00:36:55
No concern at all. But yet humans have a concern
00:36:59
index. Sometimes we never get over
00:37:02
another person's death. Yes.
00:37:03
But why isn't that natural? If this is a natural progression
00:37:07
of life, there's something bright spiritual, that death is
00:37:11
anti right to this makeup. We're in well, you know, we
00:37:15
would just handle it, you know, and into me, this idea of
00:37:18
transhumanism, really exposes this idea that that none of us
00:37:23
really want to die, right? That that there's something
00:37:27
again, that's tragic when an You'll no longer is with us.
00:37:32
That it's something tragic. When we when our life is somehow
00:37:36
shortened or somehow exterminated, right?
00:37:39
You know? And, and why is it that?
00:37:40
Yeah, your point is great. Why is it that we would have
00:37:45
that? That, that strong sense of loss,
00:37:48
but but other animals don't seem to be concerned about that other
00:37:52
species. Yeah, if we're just human
00:37:53
animal, other species mate and then eat their mates heads off
00:37:57
in this kind of weird stuff, you know.
00:38:00
Death is part of their existence but we're the most complex human
00:38:04
am now but we do everything we can to stop that aging process
00:38:10
and the eventual. Grave.
00:38:12
Yes. So anyways, back to a cell when
00:38:22
Alpha T / there. What are they do?
00:38:24
You see? I'd rather spend all day on the
00:38:26
top of the mechanical thing is amazing to me.
00:38:28
But when I look at the chapters of your book, you have like the
00:38:31
artists handwriting or the Masterpiece, Toth educated, how
00:38:35
could you summarize, you know, kind of skipping all the details
00:38:39
of the cell, but I think we got an idea from one example that
00:38:42
they're complex the What you mean by handwriting and a
00:38:47
masterpiece authenticity and such?
00:38:50
Yeah. Well, you know, for example, the
00:38:54
primary premise of the cells design is, is the idea that the
00:38:58
more that we understand about biochemistry, the more that we
00:39:01
see the same kind of attributes that Define biochemical systems,
00:39:07
as those attributes, that would be characteristic of those
00:39:11
things that we would create or invent as human being.
00:39:14
So, in other words, Is humans when we design an object or
00:39:18
create a system or develop a device, these things have
00:39:21
certain properties that that reflect, the work of a human
00:39:25
designer. And, and in those become kind of
00:39:29
Telltale signatures for how we recognize, you know, that that
00:39:34
something is is designed, right? Something is not part of nature,
00:39:39
but has been fabricated by a human, by a designer.
00:39:45
And so, when we look at the defining features of biochemical
00:39:49
systems, they have these same attributes.
00:39:52
And and so should we not conclude that these systems to
00:39:55
are designed? And so, what I do in the cells
00:39:57
design is kind of Step through what I think to be some of the
00:40:01
attributes that Define human designs and show that we see
00:40:06
those same attributes inside the cell.
00:40:08
So when we talk about, you know, the, the, the the handwriting,
00:40:12
right? Well, it we already mentioned.
00:40:15
But, you know, there is information, that is stored
00:40:18
within, you know, proteins within DNA.
00:40:22
And in fact, that information is really the set of instructions,
00:40:26
that tells the cell, how to build itself.
00:40:29
And then then kind of regulates and controls the operation of
00:40:34
all those systems inside the cell.
00:40:35
So, we know from our experience that whenever we encounter
00:40:41
information, that information is coming from a mind somewhere.
00:40:45
And what's even, you know, Erie is that the information that's
00:40:50
inside the cell, literally has the same kind of structure, that
00:40:56
that human language would have it if you can analyze human
00:40:59
language mathematically and there's a structure to it and
00:41:03
that saying kind of mathematical structure is found in
00:41:06
biochemical language to the point where biochemist had
00:41:09
developed grammar, a biochemical grammar that they can then use
00:41:13
to design. Design novel proteins that don't
00:41:17
exist in nature and they're able to do this through using those
00:41:21
rules of grammar. And so it's not just that
00:41:24
there's information but that information is is structured.
00:41:28
It has a is designed in the way that we would design
00:41:31
information. And so it's going through and
00:41:35
just showing how again those things that we would recognize
00:41:39
as clearly evidence for design. Is again, you know the the
00:41:45
characteristic features of biochemical systems you know I
00:41:50
used to work for a Fortune 500 company in research and
00:41:53
development and we would make products that, you know, would
00:41:56
be manufactured. And so had, you know,
00:41:59
opportunities to go to Plants to see the our products being
00:42:02
manufactured and you very quickly learned that the heart
00:42:05
of a really grow bus. Manufacturing operation, our
00:42:09
quality control check points He's in that manufacturing
00:42:12
process and in fact, some of the most brilliant engineering is
00:42:18
the engineering that takes place to put in place those quality
00:42:21
check points. And when you look at, you know,
00:42:25
the process in which a protein is manufactured inside the cell.
00:42:30
It's replete with these very sophisticated ingenious quality
00:42:34
control. Check points to ensure that
00:42:37
everything that's being manufactured for the cell to use
00:42:40
is done. Done in the in it, exactly the
00:42:43
way that it needs to be done, you know, in order for life to
00:42:46
be sustained. So, the fact that you see these
00:42:49
very sophisticated elaborate quality control points,
00:42:52
throughout the whole process again, is the type of thing that
00:42:56
that I think, you know, points to the reality of a mine behind
00:43:00
everything. Yeah.
00:43:03
And the you mentioned mathematics from the complexity
00:43:08
in the math involved all the way down to the human cells to
00:43:14
astrophysicists. Studying the universe, the
00:43:17
largeness is just as large as complete and complex as a cell
00:43:20
is small and complex but it's all based on mathematics isn't
00:43:24
it in the Einsteins are just guys that have tapped into some
00:43:29
of the math that was already. They're trying to figure it out.
00:43:33
Yeah, you know it, I this was years ago before I joined
00:43:39
reasons to believe. As I mentioned, I was working at
00:43:40
a Fortune 500 company in research and development and I
00:43:44
had a friend who's a proctor and was at Procter & Gamble.
00:43:46
Yes. It was Procter & Gamble.
00:43:48
Yeah, I thought everything. All right.
00:43:49
Yeah. So and I had a friend who was a
00:43:52
chemist, who was originally from Russia And he and I struck up a,
00:43:58
you know, a friendship and we would talk about all kinds of
00:44:01
things. And, and one day, we were
00:44:03
hanging out in the hallway, waiting for everybody to gather
00:44:06
together to go to the cafeteria for lunch.
00:44:09
And he says, he said to me. Why does math work?
00:44:14
Yeah, it just, it was one of those things that came out of
00:44:16
the blue and, you know, there was a there was something that
00:44:19
was absolutely profound about that question.
00:44:22
The fact that that a the universe is intelligible You
00:44:26
know, that, that we can actually study the universe and make
00:44:29
sense of it is in and of itself, a Marvel.
00:44:33
But then to think that we can even go one step further and
00:44:36
develop the or discover, who knows if you if we invent or if
00:44:41
we discover math but we can describe the universe using this
00:44:46
mathematical Precision or you have these the scientists that
00:44:51
are there. Sorry not scientists
00:44:52
mathematicians that invent mathematical systems.
00:44:56
Just as an exercise and yet it turns out that those systems
00:45:00
that they invent actually describe some aspect of nature.
00:45:05
You know, that's, that's absolutely Eerie, you know, and
00:45:09
in, you know, in the math that describes the universe is is
00:45:13
elegantly is elegant, it's beautiful.
00:45:15
We were us having this conversation yesterday morning
00:45:17
with Hugh Ross about how how it's not just simply that math
00:45:22
describes the universe but the mathematical language is so
00:45:26
awful. There's a symmetry.
00:45:27
There's an Elegance to it at, that's just so provocative and
00:45:31
it suggests that there's something beyond the universe
00:45:35
that really is responsible for the universe that there's a mind
00:45:38
beyond the universe, that's responsible for sure, you know,
00:45:42
as you know, God shows reveals himself in nature and in
00:45:46
scripture and I've always been interested in scripture as a
00:45:49
kid. I wasn't interested in some of
00:45:51
the nature like biology is to have 50 to realize that when I
00:45:53
was younger I would have studied School butter but I say that
00:45:56
Dimension because even scripture is based on math, almost all the
00:46:01
prophecies in the way the verses are structured you go you can't
00:46:05
go deep enough to see that there's a correlation that is
00:46:11
mathematical in its delivery in the life's so you've got
00:46:18
prophetical. Just the way history is laid out
00:46:20
is mathematical the way the scriptures laid out if it's one
00:46:25
author. Divine author.
00:46:26
He did it mathematically. And if it's the same author,
00:46:30
that created the life in the universe, it's all based on
00:46:33
exact precise laws rules math that never changes.
00:46:41
Yes, um, And it would be hard to come to another conclusion that
00:46:50
that just can't be random when you put it all together.
00:46:54
It just can't be what people actually do.
00:46:55
Believe it stuff in the Bible or they pick and choose from it.
00:46:58
I said, look, you just haven't looked at it close enough.
00:47:01
You can't unwind that thing and tell me something greater isn't
00:47:07
involved in the writing of that. Yeah, between the thousands of
00:47:10
years, the many authors and how as you take the time to Look
00:47:15
that thing wines together as if one person said and wrote it in
00:47:19
Eagle that they could have done, it is beautifully.
00:47:23
And it in the same thing at anything in nature.
00:47:25
If you look at it close enough but what we do is we look at
00:47:29
the, the tragedies in life and put God up against that and and
00:47:34
then and then walk away but gallic little closer.
00:47:38
Yeah. But even when you think about
00:47:40
the the tragedies that take place, you know, in the world
00:47:44
around us, you know, maybe people will see that as and
00:47:48
they'll argue that there's no way that there can be a God and
00:47:52
these types of things. Things that take place but if
00:47:55
you're operating from a naturalistic materialistic
00:47:58
worldview, I mean what what what you know, why are these
00:48:03
tragedies even tragedies? You know, if it's all
00:48:07
materialism. If there's nothing beyond the
00:48:10
universe itself it's just the way that things are and yet, you
00:48:15
know, when it comes to the idea of again, how do you explain the
00:48:20
pain and the suffering in the E, you know, the evil.
00:48:23
The world type of thing. This is where the gospel is so
00:48:27
powerful, because we understand that, we have a Creator who took
00:48:33
on the form of a human being to live among us and that that
00:48:36
Creator suffered on our, for our, on our behalf, before we
00:48:41
ever even suffer and that when we suffer that creators present
00:48:46
with us in our suffering and and that we never suffer alone and
00:48:50
that there are suffering, ultimately has As meaning and
00:48:53
purpose that that suffering can be can be converted into
00:48:57
something which is good. That to me, is so hopeful.
00:49:03
And in a turns, this whole idea of evil and pain and suffering,
00:49:08
completely upside down and in the only real satisfying answer
00:49:15
to the problem of evil is ultimately the gospel itself.
00:49:18
That's the only really satisfying answer.
00:49:23
All right, and even that scripture claims was conceived
00:49:28
before all of creation, perfect laid out plan.
00:49:31
Yeah, nothing random. And who's going to win in the
00:49:36
cat scuffle behind you? I was getting kind of interested
00:49:38
in that. Well you know yeah they usually
00:49:45
don't bother tonight. Shame.
00:49:47
Yeah, they took my mind, you know, it's time to wrap it up.
00:49:50
Yeah that's right. I never an animal start to creep
00:49:53
in the picture and give little hand.
00:49:55
That's like that, that's enough. Yeah, that's enough.
00:49:56
Yeah. I'm waiting for my snack.
00:50:00
Yeah. Right snack time.
00:50:02
I appreciate your time fuzz and so congratulations on being
00:50:07
present of reasons to believe. I love you guys, I was
00:50:09
mentioning to you. That I had dr.
00:50:12
Samples on talking about UFOs, that was fun.
00:50:14
I've had Heroes on this. Graham talking about.
00:50:19
I think I called the episode. You have a little, it's a little
00:50:21
inquire in my headlines. Yeah.
00:50:23
She's like, I had it, it's like screaming Russian scientists or
00:50:28
something like that. I don't know.
00:50:29
He told some story and lat and I've had him on a different
00:50:35
podcast before, of course, talking about the universe.
00:50:39
So this is fun. I like your relationship with
00:50:42
you guys and why you do a little.
00:50:44
Let people know what reasons to believe does and what you're
00:50:46
working on. And what you provide.
00:50:48
Yeah, well you know, our the the point of our organization really
00:50:52
is to explore the relationship between science and the
00:50:56
Christian faith. And we really do this with the
00:50:58
idea of trying to open people to the gospel, by revealing God and
00:51:02
Science. And, and that's what we're all
00:51:05
about. If people want to know more
00:51:07
about reasons to believe, they can go to our website reasons
00:51:11
dot-org, we have all kinds of resources that are available to
00:51:15
people that are interested in these Signs Faith questions,
00:51:19
blog articles videos, you know, and the list goes on and on.
00:51:23
So you know people are really interested in how to science and
00:51:28
in the Christian faith, go together, check us out.
00:51:31
Reasons, dot-org,