NEW EPISODE 'Theory of Everything' w/ Dr. Tom Rudelius
Tom discusses the quest by physicists for the 'Theory of Everything,' sometimes referred to as the 'God Theory.' Ken tries to keep up but needs clarification most of the time.
Tom is the author of an upcoming book, 'Chasing Proof. Finding Faith. He is a postdoctoral researcher in theoretical physics at the University of California, Berkeley. He holds a Ph.D. in physics from Harvard University and a bachelor's degree in physics, mathematics, and statistical science from Cornell University. Tom's book
https://www.amazon.com/Chasing-Proof-Finding-Faith-Uncertainty/dp/1496471814/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2K094Y51G15H1&keywords=tom+rudelius&qid=1679859321&sprefix=tom+rud%2Caps%2C104&sr=8-1
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What are physicists looking for when they use terms like The
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Theory of Everything or or a god equation, really?
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When physicists talk about a theory of everything, what we're
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really looking for is a theory that unifies quantum mechanics
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with With gravity. So quantum mechanics being you
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know one of the Staples of modern physics Einstein's.
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Theory of gravity being called general relativity, another one
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of the The Stables in modern physics, but they're sort of
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this incompatibility between them and so what physicists are
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talking about it with The Theory of Everything Is it today which
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reconciles this incompatibility, put them together in a
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consistent way. Okay, and understand why they
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need to be reconciled. Make sure we get through
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framework of what those two things are.
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So, how would you explain quantum mechanics to the
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layperson So, quantum mechanics is really a theory of very small
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objects. Things like atoms, electrons,
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there's sort of this amazing fact about physics.
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That physics is different, length, scales, behaves, behaves
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differently. So the mathematical equations
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that you use to describe something like the construction
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of a bridge or a building, which it, which are Newton's Laws of
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Newton's Laws of Motion. Those are different.
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Aunt than the physics. That applies, a very tiny to
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very tiny objects, like like atoms, electrons, other
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subatomic particles general relativity.
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On the other hand, as its, your of gravity is really a theory
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about very heavy objects. So things like planets galaxies
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black holes to describe the physics of these things, really
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accurately. You need to use general
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relativity and so really what we're talking about Try to put
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together quantum gravity with. Sorry we never try to talk about
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trying to put together gravity with quantum mechanics into a
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theory of what's sometimes called quantum gravity.
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We're really talking about a theory that describes objects,
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that are both very small, like quantum mechanics, where quantum
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mechanics is relevant, but also objects that are very, very
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heavy or energetic. So objects that are small and
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energetic. Don't quite aren't quite
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describe, either by quantum mechanics.
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Or general relativity separately you need to sort of put those
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together to describe objects like that which is relevant for
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things like the singularity of a black hole.
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The Big Bang Singularity for these sorts of things.
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You need this Theory of Everything, the theory of
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quantum gravity. So so first of all, so the
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quantum realm, you know, we can actually we have both Theory and
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experiment for that we have, you know, there's this famous
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particle accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider which smashes
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Together and we can describe that accurately using quantum
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mechanics. So there we have some
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experimental evidence when it comes to quantum gravity, we
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really don't have the sort of technology to be able to achieve
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the high energies that are needed to really test quantum
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gravity or to probe quantum gravity experiments lie.
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So when we talk about that the issue here, you know, I talk
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about this incompatibility, it's really am.
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Mathematical incompatibility that, you know, you do these
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computations and they work incredibly well at say the Large
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Hadron Collider, but if you were to imagine building a particle
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accelerator that can get too much, much higher energies than
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even Large, Hadron Collider that at some point the mathematical
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equations would start predicting nonsense.
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They started predicting probabilities greater than one,
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for instance. And so that's, that's your
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that's sort of when, you know this Theory.
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Isn't giving the right answer somehow there needs to be a new
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Theory, which describes this and, and you really put your
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finger on on part of the reason why it's so hard to come up with
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this theory. Part of the reason is,
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theoretically the mathematical equations for quantum gravity
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are just incredibly intricate and complicated.
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The other part is that because there isn't really a direct way
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to probe. It experimentally.
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You know, this is an area where we're really having to rely on
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Purely mathematical computations far more than in you know the
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history of physics. Where you you ideally you have
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sort of this back and forth between Theory and experiment.
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And in this case we really are just going almost exclusively on
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the theory. So the high level of the problem
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is like Einstein would come up with simple or complicated
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formula E equals MC squared but that can pretty much sum up.
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Relativity or How the Universe Works in a degree.
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You have something similar or quantum mechanics.
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But when you try to put these two concepts together, it just
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doesn't the math doesn't work. That's yeah, that's that's
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right. Yeah.
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Okay. So you're working and others on
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on a solution. And that's called String Theory.
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How does that? How does that work, right?
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So so string theory is really the only known mathematically
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consistent theory of quantum gravity by quantum gravity.
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I mean, the theory that it combines quantum mechanics and
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gravity at very high energies. So, that's really why that's
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really string theories claim to fame.
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That's why it's important, that's why we study it.
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Is that it's if you like jewelry that we know of that really
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combines these two in a mathematically.
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Assistant way. The issue is with string theory
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of again, experimentally not much evidence for it, that not
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really any good way to test. It also just very complicated
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mathematics. And so, we understand String
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Theory, well, in certain sort of Corners in certain sort of
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approximations, with with, with certain simplifying assumptions
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but to try to use string theory to actually derive, you know,
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our Physics that we observed actually make sort of the sort
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of predictions that we can actually verify experimentally.
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That's what's really hard and that's what I work on is trying.
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I'm my research specifically focuses on trying to bridge the
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gap between string theory and experiment.
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But as I say it's a very difficult, it's very difficult
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task. It is er how far I would you say
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we are from being able to, or is it ever going to be possible to
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do those kinds of Experiments to prove a string theory.
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Yeah. That's a really good question.
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I mean, I think You know, I think it's kind of depends on
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what one means by proof. I think that there it is
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reasonable that that string theory could sort of give us
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because certain give us useful information that could lead us
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to favor certain theories over others.
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But I think what's hard to Envision at least moment at the
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moment is the sort of really sharp prediction.
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That's that's so Um, it's so clear and precise that you know,
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if we were to see this then immediately we know that string
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theory is is the right answer string theory.
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Isn't at least at the moment in a place where it can make really
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sharp and precise predictions. And so you know I think it's it
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may be useful in may be increasingly useful for
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informing the way that we think about physics and informing say
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how we do experiments but I can't imagine at least in
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anywhere in the near future having something that's so
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concrete. Such a concrete proof of string
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theory that it would you know win all the Skeptics to the
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theory. Yeah.
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So, in string theory, When you actually get down to what it is,
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is it something to the effect of you get down to the atomic
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level? And you have your little protons
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and whatever down there. But there's all this space in
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between in isn't it kind of the reverberations of energy is the
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theory? That's kind of holding
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everything together. Or exactly what is it?
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What are the yeah I'm I'm not sure if I'm yeah I'm not sure if
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I would say it that way. I think the way I would say at
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least by in string theory is that there that all these
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objects that we used to think of as just being Point particles.
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So like electrons and quarks and photons in a particle physics
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treatment. Those are considered to be just
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points in space essentially so they're they're zero dimensional
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objects right there. Just points in space with
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string, theory says, is that those objects are actually
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strings. Are actually extended in one
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dimension. So they're like, they're
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one-dimensional objects. They have a length, so we call
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them strings, in contrast to particles.
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And the reason why this is important is that it turns out
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that when you, you know, when you, as I said, when you take
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two particles and you smash them together, it really really high
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Energies. Eventually you run into these
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problems, you run into inconsistencies particle
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physics. Starts to make the wrong
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predictions. If you treat them like
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particles, but if you treat them like strings string, sort of
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have these nice properties. Such that when you get to really
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high energies things, Remain the calculation remains
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well-behaved. And so that's sort of the that
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sort of the that's reason why it's called string theory and
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yeah, I guess I guess. It's the main, the main thing.
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If you remember, nothing else about String Theory, particles
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are actually strings and it's a theory of quantum gravity, okay?
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I think you referenced it earlier, but if this issue
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solved, if you can find some kind of for laser something that
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pulls together, quantum mechanics and I guess the
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cosmos, our general relativity, what comes of that?
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How does that change the world in any way, what answers bigger
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answers can that what questions? Can a dancer?
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It's Hard to see how this is going to have any sort of
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answers as far as like, you know, is this going to lead to
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like better Refrigeration is, is going to help with light answer
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quite a bit and he's like black hole questions or dark matter,
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right shoes? Yeah, exactly.
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But yeah. So it's going to say but, you
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know, as far as like understanding the fundamental
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laws of nature and understanding black hole physics,
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understanding The Big Bang singularity I think, yeah, if
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some understanding some of these fundamental questions about the
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nature of the universe, I think what it's what's kind of unclear
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to me is, you know, if we get if we figure this out, will this
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revolutionize the way that we think about metaphysics?
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Well revolutionize, the way we think about theology, possibly
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possibly, I think it's tough to say right now because we don't
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how could it affect theology? Do you think?
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Okay. Yeah, well I think As you know,
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I think censored your personal view on theology or faith
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matters. Yeah, well I think I think
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probably where it comes up most with a connection between string
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theory and theologies the connection that comes up the
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most often is in the context of the Multiverse.
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So string theory, part of the reason why it's hard to verify
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experimentally is it. It doesn't seem to predict a
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single possible Universe just a single Conceivable set of
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physical laws but actually gives it rise to this entire
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landscape. A landscape is the technical
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term. This enormous landscape of
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possible possible universes. You can call them pause
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different sets, of possible laws of physics of the universe could
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have followed. So, you know, in our universe,
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there's this thing that measures how strong electromagnetism is
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called the fine structure constant and it takes the value
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of 1 over 137 and you can imagine there's some other
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Universe out there in somewhere in the string landscape that has
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a different value of that, fine structure constant.
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And you can imagine that there's a universe that has, you know,
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instead of the electromagnetic force in the weak force in the
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strong force, maybe it has eight forces, or maybe it only has
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one. So lots of different possible
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sets of physics. And for some people, this is, I
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think this is relevant because when it comes to The question of
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fine-tuning. So, you know, this the laws of
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physics just seemed to happen to fall exactly in this life
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permitting range and for a number of people, myself
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included, this is suggestive of sort of some sort of larger
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design. The perhaps the laws of physics
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are the way they are because they need to be this way in
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order to give rise to intelligent conscious life like
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us. So And so for some people that
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the Multiverse the possibility of a string theory, Multiverse
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is could perhaps even of a counter-argument to this because
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it, you know, if you know if there's zillions of universes
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out there while maybe some of them are going to have life,
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some of them aren't. But we just happen to find, you
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know, as observers were necessarily going to find
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ourselves living in a universe. That has life as opposed to one
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that doesn't. And so, I think that string
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through often comes up in these theological discussions of the
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Multiverse But I would also say, and I'm happy to answer more
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about what one thing I'll say is that I think our understanding
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of the Multiverse with in string theory is still in its very
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early stages. In our County Hamed who was a
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faculty member at The Institute for advanced study where I did.
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My first post Doc in member here in one, sitting in her talk that
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the right now, the Multiverse isn't a theory, it's a cartoon,
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it's sort of this cartoonish picture of what might be going
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on, but it's one of those things that we still really don't have
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a great understanding of Within In theory referring again to the
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Marvel universe, that's another Focus there on is multiverses
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and but it's nothing like that. Is it their version of
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Multiverse is there's different versions of you.
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Living out, very similar lives with the same friends and family
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with different outcomes. Yeah.
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You're not talking about duplicates of universes, right?
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Just various universes. Yeah, and that's not in this
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contact. That's not what I'm talking
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about. I think some people Well, some
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people would say that those such a such things do actually exist.
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Right now what I'm talking about is really a Multiverse in the
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context of fine-tuning. And so I'm really talking about
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not different copies of me in different universes, but rather
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different sets of physical laws across the different universes,
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right? Yeah, one last question along
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these lines anyway up at the science realm physics realm is
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the Realms. The multi Realms.
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So our Dimensions. Excuse me.
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So does string theory went? The math is done.
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I believe it comes down to. Is it ten Dimensions?
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Yeah, Ray. So it does that mean the
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conclusion is there's ten Dimensions.
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We can only experience or C4 or perceive or or does it mean
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there's more math to do? To get us to a place of four.
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Sort of sort of both, I think, I mean, yeah, it's a good idea is
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that there are ten Dimensions. We only see 4.
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So, the other six are somehow crawled up in a really, really
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small fashion, so that we can't observe then we can observe
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their consequences but the exists nonetheless but really
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instill within String Theory. All of the interesting physics.
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You know, I mentioned You know, we can imagine it.
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There's some Universe in string theory that's like our universe
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only the fine structure constant is different.
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There's another universe that's like our universe, but there's a
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different number of fundamental forces the things that
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distinguish those different universes.
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In large part, boiled down to the way that you curl up the
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other six, dimensions into some sort of tiny little geometry.
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So so that geometrically The physics of our, the physics of
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our universe can be translated into geometric questions about
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what's called the compactification geometry.
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The six dimensional, The Six Dimensions of space.
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So so part of the issue that this isn't the entire issue, but
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part of the issue is that the geometry, the mathematical
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mathematically, just hard to understand all all of the
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possibilities for how. How to curl up these Six
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Dimensions because there's a lot of them and so therefore in
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order to understand how to get from tender Mitchell, String
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Theory before dimensional us, we have this basic idea that we
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have these six other small Dimensions but in order to
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concretely make that jump between how do you go from 10
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dimensional String Theory to the exact laws of physics that we
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observe you need to understand just more about the mathematics
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of this compactification. All right, I'm going to ask you
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now a I guess would be a theological question.
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We'll see if you can ponder this one that I think is a great
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question for a physicist. I want to see what your answer
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would be. So scripture talks about You
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know, Satan being the God of this world and we wrestle not
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with flesh and blood but principalities and Powers.
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So basically some kind of spiritual operation going on on
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this planet and it says there in the Heavenly Realms from a
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physicist point of view. It's not talking about other
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planets it says here but then it calls it.
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Heavenly Realms, some kind of spiritual hierarchy is going on.
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Does that spiritual concept from the New Testament makes sense in
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the physics world? Could it is realm another word
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for Dimension? Can they be interchanged
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possibly interchangeable? Or how do you see that?
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Yeah, my own personal view is that I'm really hesitant to try
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to get out of physics. A lot of these spiritual
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realities. I think that the for, you know,
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really? When we talk about physics, I
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think that the physics really ultimately, its goal is to
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describe the natural world around us.
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You know, that there is all of these, you know, there's I'm
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sitting on this couch, there's this house.
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There's water that I'm drinking, you know, and all of these
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things are described by physics and I think that, you know,
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science has incredible job with describing these things.
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But what science itself doesn't do is tell us that there
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couldn't be some sort of other realities that aren't so
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amenable to scientific study, that can't be described in such
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a way and I think that when we talk about these spiritual
00:19:45
realities as as Ins that, that we shouldn't you don't
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necessarily try to fit those into the physical framework, but
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rather that we should understand that the physical framework
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doesn't need to Encompass every all knowledge that exists, that
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there could be other things out there beyond what we can
00:20:04
observe. Or also, you know, that, that
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perhaps perhaps sometimes there's, there's a physical
00:20:11
description of something, but there's sort of a deeper meaning
00:20:15
to it. And so, I think, No, I've heard
00:20:19
this somewhere and I like to say a lot that I think, I think
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physics and science, do a better job of telling us about
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mechanisms and religion and Faith, do a better job of
00:20:29
telling us about meaning and the think, it's, it's best not to
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try to, you know, read meaning too much out of science out of,
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you know, out of laws of physics, or biology, or anything
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else. And I think it's best not to try
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to Work too hard to understand the mechanisms from a Biblical
00:20:47
perspective. I don't think that's really what
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the Bible is. Trying to point us toward
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physicist or that I've seen. Anyway, just popular ones, I
00:20:56
would know of like, Einstein Michio Kaku.
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They mentioned God. A lot physics circles.
00:21:05
They're not usually talking about the God of the Bible.
00:21:08
Are they for of a? Yeah, and theistic.
00:21:13
That all of creation. Is what they're referring to is
00:21:17
God that right? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think,
00:21:22
you know, a term that often gets used a lot as nature with a
00:21:25
capital N. And I think what's, yeah, I
00:21:32
mean, I, you do hear this a lot even within within physical, you
00:21:37
know, within the physicist circles at physics seminars.
00:21:41
Physicists will talk about nature doing things one, way or
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nature doing things in other way.
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And they're kind of using this nature with the capital and like
00:21:49
a little bit of a placeholder goal placeholder God.
00:21:52
I'm not sure whether it's best to think of it is pantheistic or
00:21:55
deistic. But I think really ultimately
00:21:58
what the dip, the main difference is between that
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nature with capital and the god capital G that I believe in is
00:22:06
that I think nature capital and this is completely indifferent.
00:22:11
It's to the Affairs of humanity that nature with the capital and
00:22:15
is sort of divorced from humankind and we humans are just
00:22:19
sort of this happy accident. That happens to have come in.
00:22:22
Where they use the word god? Are they almost using it like
00:22:25
mother nature? I think so.
00:22:28
I love it. I think then, then then a first
00:22:30
personage. It's, I think so.
00:22:32
I mean, I should say, I mean, you know, there are certainly,
00:22:36
you know, like Many religious scientists, Many religious
00:22:40
physicist out there, but I think you're right that for a lot.
00:22:43
For a lot of these people that when you, you know, when you
00:22:45
read these books, when you hear them referring to God, I think
00:22:48
that you're right. It's a little bit like mother
00:22:49
nature. So, in the year in the same
00:22:52
world and the same study, how did you come to I believe in,
00:22:57
you know, the god of the Bible and the Christian faith.
00:23:00
How did that Journey happen? Yeah.
00:23:03
So it's a long story but but essentially I grew up in a very
00:23:08
loving but also very non religious family.
00:23:11
I have a twin brother named Steve and growing up for both of
00:23:15
us. We just didn't think too much
00:23:17
about religion, never went to charge, never read the Bible.
00:23:23
Basically was focused pretty much just And sports or that
00:23:26
those are the two things that I was really interested in and we
00:23:31
went off to college. My twin brother met a guy at is
00:23:36
floor. His crush his freshman year, we
00:23:38
probably the first really serious thinking Christian, that
00:23:40
neither of us had ever met. And so, my brother and him
00:23:43
started having conversations eventually, my brother decided
00:23:46
he was a Christian and he started talking with me about it
00:23:49
and I told him look Steve, I trouble.
00:23:51
Sorry and he tried to give me a copy of the Bible, some other
00:23:54
books about Christianity to read.
00:23:55
I told him look. Do you have trouble finding time
00:23:57
to read books? That I want to read much less
00:23:58
time to read books that I don't want to read that.
00:24:01
That's just where I was with that.
00:24:02
I always figured, you know, I'm basically a good person, if
00:24:04
there's a heaven, I'll probably go to it, but I was just more
00:24:06
focused on on, you know, academic excellence and and
00:24:11
having success as I as I defined it as I saw it and it was a lot
00:24:18
of conversations, I guess with my twin brother, it really got
00:24:21
me to start thinking about a lot of the bigger questions.
00:24:26
And more than anything. Maybe they got me to start
00:24:28
realizing that despite referring to myself as a non-religious
00:24:32
person. I did, in fact have a worldview.
00:24:35
I did. In fact have, you know, views on
00:24:41
what is good and what is right? And what is the afterlife that I
00:24:45
had? Come to have views about all of
00:24:48
these things even though I wouldn't have called it a
00:24:50
religion. And so as I started talking more
00:24:55
with him, I started having to, you know, question really
00:24:58
questioning a lot of my worldview.
00:25:00
A lot of the assumptions that I brought to the table things that
00:25:03
I realized weren't weren't necessarily.
00:25:07
Based on certainly weren't based on science, you know, but but
00:25:12
more. So just based on what I had
00:25:13
internalized and and so, as I started questioning, I started
00:25:18
rethinking a lot of my positions.
00:25:20
Ultimately, I had an experience where I just got to this point
00:25:26
where I realized kind of that I wasn't such a good person,
00:25:30
wasn't as good of a person as I thought I was.
00:25:32
And it kind of in that moment, a lot of what my brother And
00:25:37
teaching me, you know about forgiveness about salvation.
00:25:42
A lot of these things just seem like buzzwords until I kind of
00:25:45
realized that actually. I needed these things and the
00:25:49
story the Christian story that my brother had been teaching me
00:25:53
really started to make sense of my own experience.
00:25:57
So, Yeah ultimately I guess it was kind of a long journey
00:26:02
followed by kind of this this moment of significant
00:26:07
transformation and coming to realize that I did in fact need
00:26:12
forgiveness and that. Yeah Christianity ice just just
00:26:16
made sense, how did it affect your view on your science
00:26:19
studies or did it? It did to give you a different
00:26:22
Outlook or not as yeah perspective but it did it bring
00:26:26
it more. Did it makes more sense to you?
00:26:29
Me either. Yeah, I mean, I think one thing
00:26:32
is that it actually it really like inspired me to want to go
00:26:35
into science. A lot more, I, I probably
00:26:39
wouldn't wouldn't have gone into science.
00:26:41
If I had become a Christian in college, I think that really, it
00:26:48
was in large part thinking about a lot of these kind of deeper
00:26:51
questions of meaning of purpose that got me interested.
00:26:56
I also, you know, I saw the eye Real out.
00:27:01
It is that for whatever reason, our culture seems to really care
00:27:04
a lot about what scientists think about got.
00:27:07
And so for me, I think it was I saw it as sort of an opportunity
00:27:14
to be able to Talk about my faith, and to, hopefully have
00:27:22
how that influence to help people grow.
00:27:26
Spiritually, tell people, kind of experience, some of the, the
00:27:31
happiness and the transformation that I experienced in coming to
00:27:36
Faith in the first place. Right.
00:27:39
That's why I have you on. Yeah, exactly.
00:27:41
Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:42
And now, here we are. So here we are talking about it,
00:27:46
so your books coming out in August.
00:27:48
That's what got me had you on my radar.
00:27:52
That's what's The quick summary of it and can people if I put a
00:27:54
link, are they able to pre-order it?
00:27:56
I believe they are able to pre-order it.
00:27:58
I know it's on some of the websites now.
00:28:01
Yeah, so it's called chasing proof finding Faith.
00:28:03
It's really my story, you know, there's a little bit about my
00:28:07
perspective on things. Things as a Christian as a
00:28:11
scientist and, you know, some, some of the arguments that I
00:28:17
found convincing or didn't. But yeah, in large part of
00:28:20
Julie, just my story, the story of how I came to Faith as a
00:28:27
college student and then my Journey of Faith since then.
00:28:31
So it's been what a little bit more than 13 years.
00:28:34
Now, that I've been, I've been a Christian And in that time, I've
00:28:40
had a lot of highs, I'm also on a lot of lows, a lot of doubts
00:28:43
seasons of really of fear and anxiety.
00:28:47
And and so this book is kind of just talk to you about how I was
00:28:50
able to go through all of those and how my faith is changed.
00:28:56
How my science has changed, how it brought in all that time.
00:29:01
All right. I appreciate your time, doctor
00:29:03
radius and I'll, I'll put the book.
00:29:08
The links Amazon and wherever I'll put it in the notes for
00:29:11
you. All right, great.
00:29:12
Thank you very much. Yeah, thanks for having me.