Historian and host of the History Channels, 'Secrets of the Occult,' Dr. Richard B. Spence visits Becoming Outlaws. Topics discussed are UFOs and their connection with the occult, Santa Claus, and Aleister Crowley. A self-proclaimed Agnostic, Dr. Spence shares his personal views and experience(s) on occultism while, Ken reflects the Christian perspective.
Dr. Spence is a historian and retired Professor of History from the University of Idaho. He specializes in modern Russian, military, espionage and occult history. He has produced biographies of Sidney Reilly and Aleister Crowley. He has been interviewed for various documentaries on the History Channel and is a consultant for the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.
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Now the movie Outlaws, he said, come follow me, people from all
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walks of life since then becoming alloys.
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You've talked to me in person at any length of time, if you know
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me, if you've listened to any podcast or not every podcast,
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but if you've listened to a number of them or have read my
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blogs at one point or another, you've heard me say or have
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written that I don't believe a person can have told me on son,
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this who's very smart in his in college that, you can consider
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yourself an educated person. If you take religion or
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spirituality out of History, Because most from ancient times
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to our earliest records, it seems that mankind.
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For some reason has believed in another dimension has reached
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out to another dimension, and is seems pretty confident that
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they've communicated and have built cultures with Divine
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beings. And so on, whether to appease or
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to cooperate, it depends on the culture in the time.
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That's my Layman's opinion, but I'm pretty pumped today to have
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a non Layman. Actually, I'm a professor in
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history. So we're going to have dr.
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Richard Spence, who I know is a very familiar voice as I'm a
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documentary nerd, kind of person from The History Channel and
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he's a retired. Professor recently from the
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University of Idaho his specialty was in is in modern
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Russia military Espionage and of course the occult He's produced
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biographies of Sydney, Riley and Aleister.
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Crowley is featured in numerous History, Channel, documentaries
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and a consultant for the International Spy Museum in
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Washington. DC and dr.
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Spence. It's like the coolest bio.
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I think anybody could ever have. Well, I never heard girl called
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cool before. So that's good, you know, not as
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exciting as it may sound but yeah, I'll take it.
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Yeah, it's up my alley. I mean that's some soda.
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Focus today, which doesn't really narrow down.
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A topic is the occult, and what is the fault.
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Okay? So I'm going to give you my
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definition, okay? And you can get other ones but
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you just start with the word itself, okay?
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This is one of the things that sometimes people, just oddly
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Overlook. What's the, what's the origin of
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the word? What does the word itself mean?
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If you separate it from, Be the implications that come out of
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that meeting and it's yours comes from the Latin and it
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means hidden and who more to the point.
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It means hidden from sight obscured veiled and they're all
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kinds of terms that we can use for that.
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And what that's referring. So the question then becomes all
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right, it's about something which is hidden.
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Well, what's hidden? So again, my definition would be
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that what's hidden is essentially either another world
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or the real world. So it comes to a very basic
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concept would be that the world of our senses, the material,
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what we think is the real world and yeah he's the only one we
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know, right? Yep.
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Certain you know, the solid walls, you know, the mosquitoes,
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everything else that goes with it.
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The changing of the seasons, the Milky Way.
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All in. It's big.
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Remember this is, this is not really a tiny reality.
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That that is the one which our senses perceive our minds sort
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of tells us there. But the, the absolute basic
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element in. What could be termed occultism,
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the kind of idea or a doctrine of the Hidden.
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Is that what we perceive is only part of a much bigger world.
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So in that sense, it doesn't mean, you know, sometimes people
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use the term well it's another dimension.
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I don't know whether that's it's it's and it's not even another
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world. It's simply the larger part of
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our world that we don't perceive.
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So where are you coming from? I think I have a pretty good
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idea because I've listened to and have read so much but what
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where are you coming from? Is you're a historian?
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But You're sounding like there's something out there but you
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can't Define it. Well, that's more than
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historical. Sounds like you have a little
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body into this? Well, I'm just going to cut to
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the chase. I mean, how much of this do I
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believe? All right.
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Okay, here I got to get into these definitions.
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One of the things I always clearly separate is from what I
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know and what I believe. I don't believe what I know.
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I don't have to believe it because I know it.
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So they're empty, really don't know, a lot sort of guy he is.
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Yet the only thing really sure of is that it's now and we're
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here. So beyond that, but belief
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really comes down to things that you you except on the basis of
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evidence that, you know, most often because somebody told you
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that was. So there's a tremendous amount
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of that and the things that we believe, we can't in most cases,
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actually prove. We can't Really know them.
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We accept them. In other words, I'm gonna kind
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of faith in their belief seems to be.
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Yeah. And sometimes, that's pretty
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solid. So, you know, I've never been
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to, you know, Ulaanbaatar outer Mongolia, but I'm pretty sure
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it's there. Okay.
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There's all kinds of evidence. Okay, Maps.
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People, I've talked to there's abundant evidence, but I can't
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say that I personally never seen it.
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So, you know, I believe that it exists almost to the point.
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Out of knowing that exists, but if you really want to be a
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stickler, you don't even know that if you had been there and
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itself. So well, we all believe a lot
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more than we know. And we have to, you know, where
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to do to function. In the real world.
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I mean, if you only tried to make your decisions based upon
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what you're absolutely rock-solid incontrovertible be
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certain of you wouldn't do anything.
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You never leave the house. So is it fair to say as a
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historian on these matters? You know a lot that's historical
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and what other people have said or has been documented which
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will go over some of it. But I think, you know enough I
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think anyone that studies this enough can't walk away and say
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it's all All Shenanigans, I think they walk away and say a
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lot of it shenanigan something's going on.
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I would say that I have. Seen enough or experienced
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enough to make me. Well, for instance, I'll come
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right out and say that that much of what passes in the realm of
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what people tend to think of occultism is fakery.
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Hmm. Alright, it's trickery, it's
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make-believe, it isn't real. But some of it from my
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experience, you have to take it more seriously, that it is easy
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to see as we get this thing that can be Joke, it can be fun, you
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can do it for kicks, you can do it for, you know, to, for any
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number of reasons. But it's it's it's not totally a
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joke. What drives you or has driven
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you to go down that road? Well I don't know.
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See I get question asked that question all the time and the
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simple answer is not a simple answer.
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Is that one thing leads to another.
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So for instance, If you take an interest in modern Russian
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history, you begin, you know, you inevitably run into things
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like the Russian Revolution. Well, you run into Russian
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Revolution and what do you run into if you are 60 and then you
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run into secret societies, really remember you can't have a
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revolution without a conspiracy. It just doesn't work any other
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way. Yeah and then you begin to delve
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into the connections between people and that's where things
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like either secret societies. You know the ID being bound by
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organizations And then very often Bound by oath.
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Someone you start being bound by oath to start swearing on
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something and that that's in based upon a set of set of
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beliefs and somewhere that then leads to, that's kind of the
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slippery road to looking at the role of a cult ISM in history
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and in human Affairs. And one of the things that if
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nothing else, hopefully I try to make clear in The Wonder of
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Great Courses course and occultism is that it's
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everywhere. Where it permeates everything we
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do and you have forgot. How do you know it or not every
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single day? Along those lines, I'd like to
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discuss Santa Claus. However, could you define a few
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things for me? Because it seems like you've
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broken up or at least explain the appalled in three major
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categories. If I'm not mistaken like Alchemy
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astrology and divination does that kind of summarize, does it
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all get tucked under there? You can combine these in
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different ways you know Alchemy is the magic of things.
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It's the the Combining of elements to form other elements.
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Yeah, it's just chemistry with intention.
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Think of it that way. Alright.
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And astrology is the kind of magic of the heavens.
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Then you've also got the other category would be ritual, magic
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or theurgy. This is, this is where you use
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when you try to appeal or deal with some sort of Sentient some
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sort of intelligence. All right, just this is goes
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back to this thing about this this other or larger World.
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Maybe this is the other point I need to sort of, you know, make
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the point. Is that not only do we live in a
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larger world that we can't see that world is inhabited.
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There are things there, that perceive us much more clearly,
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than we perceive. Then, this is the idea how these
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this, this is the realm of the spirits, right?
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We don't have any better term for them than that, although
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some of them become Gods, some of them become Devils, some of
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them become sources of nature. But this is, the concept is,
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there's a greater world and that world is inhabited and the
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entities or whatever you want to call them.
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That inhabit that world can teach us things.
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They also can hide things from us.
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So, based on your studies, I'll end up asking an opinion based
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on your studies is Why do you think humans from the earliest
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times, reach out to that or believe?
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Where do you think that comes from?
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I mean, I have my own personal belief.
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That's what are those listening. They know this is a Christian
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podcast, and if you don't mind me saying you've turned yourself
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agnostic. Is that why you're still in?
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Get it term as I can come up with which basically means just.
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So people are clear, is that it's just what you've been
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describing in a kind of a roundabout way.
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Is your open and curious? Yeah, but you haven't ruled a
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lot, you haven't ruled everything.
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No, I haven't seen everything yet and that's true for any but
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if you're talking about something is a topic is Broad.
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And in many ways sort of And is ill defined as a cult.
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Isn't can be, you never know all of it.
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I mean, you know, II have no concept of how much, or how
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little I actually know about something.
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But let's find out, I can guarantee, you know, more than
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most of us. So, give us a little.
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So, I thought I knew quite a bit about Santa Claus meaning that
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my history went back to st. Nicholas, and his life in This
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and that, but yours went a lot creepier.
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Yes, it does. Well, you know, and I got to
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give this isn't like an original Discovery.
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This is an idea that's been Advanced by particulars a fellow
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by the name of Tony van ryn to him.
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He's Duchess. Oh I'm sure.
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I just completely butchered his name but I ran across for this
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idea, really comes across. If you're looking for, if
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there's a little book you can find called when Santa was a
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shaman. All right?
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And this lays forward, found, her answer games whole idea that
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connection really between Santa Claus and sort of ancient
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fertility deities. And now what he does is he,
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yeah, he makes a good pitch for that.
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And this is this, you know, comes into another kind of Basic
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idea in history. History is really just a set of
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stories, okay. There's there's no there's no
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like official book written down anywhere.
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Honestly, folks people make it up really, they may make it up
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from a point of scholarly knowledge or they may make it up
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from a position of I don't know, total ignorance but it's always
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made up is always based upon what things the things that
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people have said. So everything is a narrative,
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everything. All right.
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It's a story. It's a narrative that explains
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how things work or how something works in some way.
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And, you know, the, to me, the interesting frustrating and in
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some ways almost kind of spooky aspect in history or elsewhere
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is that you can take what few facts you actually have.
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Remember, facts are things that we know.
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All right, so I think we could all pretty much agree that WWII
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happened. Sure.
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And we can pretty much Define when it happened now, Explain to
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me. Why did it happen?
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Why did happen and that way, why did it take this particular?
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Course. Ask every other question you can
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about World War 2, beyond the simple fact that it happened in
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all of that is a narrative. Its opinion is an interpretation
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of those facts and you can come up with different narratives to
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explain the same thing and they all make sense.
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Having said that Santa I'm on the edge of my seat.
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So, you know, we tend to think of said, well, you know, first
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of all, you look at, you can link it to st.
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Nicholas. In the rest of it, but you're
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eventually looking at this image that, you know, what does that
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have to do with any particular Saint or Christianity, right.
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This is that there's the there's no it's not necessarily any kind
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of Link there and one of the things that you get, one of the
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things you find in a cold imagery religious imagery, which
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is pretty much the same thing as this constantly.
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It's always being Rewritten. Written.
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And and that's one of the ways. I think you you have to imagine
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something like the occult or anything else.
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It's constantly in the process of reforming itself.
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It's like a virus mutating constantly changing.
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And in Things become combined with each other.
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So, the type of thing that I found a razor.
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Again, we'll look, if you go, and he's basing this, in many
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ways, he grew up in the Netherlands and there was a very
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particular Dutch, Santa Claus. He's fine pretty much the same
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thing in Germany. You get some Echoes of that in
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England, but the the Santa with the, the sinterklaas A certain
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perception of st. Nicholas is, he's not a not his,
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this is not a happy guy, right? This is, you know, he's kind of
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the spirit of winter Vengeance, right?
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And the original? The story.
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No, he doesn't come. He doesn't leave coal in the
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stockings of bad children. No, he kidnaps.
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Bad children and carries them away in a sack and sells them to
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the Turks. If they're lucky, Now they can
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to end and you find this, if you go a little bit east in Germany
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and you go up in the Alps, there's this whole tradition of
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the Christmas, the Christmas devil.
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And which comes across as Krampus.
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And there actually was a kind of a I don't know.
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Sort of a crab depends on it. I thought it was sort of a
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crappy movie about Krampus. I saw it.
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Yeah maybe come here but that's that's a real thing.
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It's a real set of Legends especially in areas like
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Switzerland in the tyrol and you know in the wintertime there is
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this this kind of avenging Spirit which comes and punishes
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children, even some cases killing them well and but at the
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same time can also bring He can help you under certain
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circumstances and and if you look at those two, you can see
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that. What is Krampus up in the tyrol
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and what Centric laws, another was at the root of that, is the
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same thing. It represents the same sort of,
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of power, it represents the same sort of almost sort of natural
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force in some way. It's now this is the thing that
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this is our basic reality that we don't pay a lot of attention
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to is that, you know, everybody talks about nature can be your
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friend, you? Okay?
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Can be. It's also what will kill you?
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Hmm. Inevitably Natural Forces,
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natural laws will be all of our demise at least physically.
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All right, that's it. There's the whole sort of
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natural process that will see what will happen in this case.
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And it's It's fundamentally indifferent.
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Yeah, now you're talking about nature, your home on nature, but
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are you explaining in a vault, as mm, that thought.
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But with but in spiritual terms, like, there's almost like a yin
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and a Yang from your view or from history's view to these
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entities, or the stories of the entities.
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Or you have to appease. If you look at, you know, let's
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take sort of a broad look through history at all.
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That sort of entities all the gods Devils beings essentially
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the sort of deities that human beings have You go nice.
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This question, where does this come from?
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There is in What I would see would argue is an innate.
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Spirituality to human beings. I think people can try to deny
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that or sublimated, or direct the energy somewhere else.
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But you know, one way or the other, you always end up
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worshipping something. And, and it can be just a, just
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a thing in this way. but the, the kind of Basic reality,
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reduce everything. Remember back to what we know as
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opposed to what we believe we live in this, what we call
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nature. Okay.
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That's which wishes is really a description of the physical
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processes that are going on around us and are happening both
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visibly and unin visibly. Are you going to part of that
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that we that we can't see? And the thing about nature is
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that you can't Define any morality in it, There's, there's
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nothing there. There is, there's no good or bad
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in nature. The only thing that exists in
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nature so far, as we can see, is a built-in, a kind of built-in
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system of survival and survival with one aim which is to
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perpetuate the life-forms that survive Right.
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From a natural standpoint that appears to be our only purpose.
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Okay, okay, that's, that's not particularly flattering anything
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else, but that's clearly, you know what it is?
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That we do that. If we look at every other living
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thing, this is what they all do. They struggle as hard as they
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can to stay alive and a hostile environment, in order to
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reproduce in create others of their kind which then struggle
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to do the same thing. You know?
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That's that's the cake. Everything else is just icing.
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So you know what we have to do is a we have to figure out what
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our ancestors have to do. What every living thing has to
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do. Is how do you negotiate that?
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so, the, the idea here is that there's There's gotta be
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someone. We could reason with there has
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to be. In other words, is this simply a
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kind of blind mechanical system, okay?
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You think of them. So that nature is nothing more
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than a kind of vast machine. Without any other purpose other
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than just running and no longer in some ways, he even remembers
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what it is that its operating for and did his inexorable.
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And there is no reasoning or appeal.
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They don't like that idea. So there has to be some sort of
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some sort of purpose, we think do this.
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Now, there's an interesting argument to be made that if you
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just shut up and listen. Any good Shaman would tell you
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this remember these, these particular humans who in every
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society and every form become the intermediaries between this
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Hidden World and the rest of us, the ones who see things and
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hear, things until all the rest of us about them, right?
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And maybe they're actually seeing something or they're
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making it up but we don't know for sure.
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But what they would say is the first thing you have to do is
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just shut up and listen. And if you do and listen, not
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with your ears, but as if you just sort of open yourself to
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it, the world nature, everything is talking to you.
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That it is constantly communicating you with you in
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some way. and that sort of brings us to what I'd argue is
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another Fundamental concept of kind of basic building block of
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occultism or of an occult view worldview, which is that
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everything that happens matters. that there's no such thing as
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meaningless coincidence, there are coincidences, but those
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coincidences have meaning And everything that happens to you.
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Everything you see and observe on any given day.
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Every one of those things has some kind of meaning it it's
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communicating to you in some way or one way to put it is that
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everything that happens is an omen for something else. now,
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that really is a kind of That's actually a pretty trippy idea if
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you begin to try to look at things that way.
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And this is a little experiment that people can do if you want
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to if you sort of figure out, okay, everything that happens.
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I don't know, I was taking change out of my pocket and you
00:24:01
know a quarter and a penny fell up, okay, what does that mean a
00:24:07
mystical interpretation? Might be well, you noticed it,
00:24:10
didn't you quarter and it was a penny.
00:24:14
So what does that mean to you? Or Just note that.
00:24:20
Just be aware that it happened and it's connected to other
00:24:23
things. So if there are no coincidences,
00:24:27
which There is, but there isn't. I mean, my way, some things are
00:24:36
just a coincidence, however, some things just seem beyond the
00:24:40
scope of being a coincidence, but then what is it?
00:24:43
So I would have, of course, a hard time thinking well, it's
00:24:45
just the nature, we can't see it play and I don't know if you
00:24:51
Define nature, we can't see or even like the wind and stuff
00:24:54
that's still Elemental but this for you or a cult I'm not trying
00:24:58
to put you into called as I'm trying to Define like kind of
00:25:01
your opinion versus explaining a cult to me is Is really anything
00:25:07
that we sense. Really can't see or even like a
00:25:12
does that become in the view part of like this Spirit
00:25:17
phenomena world, or do you see a direct divide between the
00:25:22
natural elements and then a supernatural element?
00:25:27
Of the spirit world. Well, you asked my opinion is
00:25:31
that there couldn't be any distinction between Supernatural
00:25:37
a natural. I mean, there's, there's the
00:25:39
part of nature. You can see, there's the kind,
00:25:40
we can't perceive okay, but there's no, there's no reason
00:25:43
for there to be two things. Yeah, I mean what we the point.
00:25:48
So yeah, Supernatural is a good term for anything.
00:25:53
You can't explain it scares you a little bit.
00:25:55
So that's kind of spooky in some way so it's supernatural.
00:26:02
Yeah because when we can we like to think of the natural world is
00:26:06
being we would really like to think of it as being peaceful
00:26:10
and benign and and controllable Early like that idea.
00:26:16
We really want to control nature, this is to see this,
00:26:19
this is why we assign ourselves, the role that we must save it.
00:26:23
If you think about it away that, in some way we could argue, I
00:26:27
would argue, for instance, that's one of the most arrogant
00:26:29
things ever heard come from the mouth of a human being.
00:26:32
That nature requires them to save it.
00:26:38
I mean, you know, major has ways of taking care of unwanted
00:26:42
species, if you simply look at the thing we can find there been
00:26:47
this whole series of mass extinctions.
00:26:49
Alright so that's how much fundamentally one matters in the
00:26:54
greater scheme of nature apparently. but it's I think we
00:27:02
argue that the the the occult view of nature if that's it.
00:27:07
The sort of hidden world is that there's simply a larger.
00:27:11
Component to Nature. And and that there is something
00:27:17
that can be accessed and reason with their there is something
00:27:22
that communicates with us and that we can communicate with and
00:27:26
I think that's what sort of gets you.
00:27:28
Well, that would be, that would be Beyond nature, and something
00:27:31
of intelligence. Well how how, how do we know
00:27:37
what nature is? I think Nature has Intelligence
00:27:41
or just is doing its function. Because if something's, if we're
00:27:47
able to reach something and going to get counselor direction
00:27:49
from and reason with reason takes intelligence.
00:27:54
Well, but we reason and the Heartland human nature, not
00:28:02
separate from it. I mean, it is Let's put it this
00:28:09
way Beyond any kind of spiritual Dimension.
00:28:12
If you again, if you look at just what you have, all right,
00:28:16
if you just go through, I don't know.
00:28:17
Let's Pretend We're aliens and we're coming in, and we're going
00:28:19
to, you know, probe these things and dissect him and see what
00:28:21
we've got well to them. We're evidently just another
00:28:26
animal. Maybe they can even figure out
00:28:29
what genus or it. We're just flesh and blood and
00:28:33
they're a system of organs. There's this kind of Flesh and
00:28:37
Blood machine and it operates that way.
00:28:40
There's nothing terribly magical about that. so physically, we're
00:28:45
not special in some way, but We believe We Are.
00:28:53
Might be, we could be, or there's always the idea that we
00:28:57
are an animal that suffers from the delusion that it is not an
00:29:00
animal. Yeah, the question is why what
00:29:03
we're doing this whole idea to begin with.
00:29:05
So from your Viewpoint, do you think religion?
00:29:08
Because you've tapped religion and I don't disagree with all of
00:29:12
it. Some of it, I do religion under
00:29:15
called as a reason or just another way to tap into Meaning
00:29:25
or a search for meaning, or a search for hidden.
00:29:30
What are we searching for? I mean, in the occult hidden
00:29:33
knowledge in the purposes. What to answer philosophical
00:29:38
questions? Why were here?
00:29:39
What we do or in ancient times? Was it mainly?
00:29:42
So we have good crops and we appease a spirit God and this
00:29:46
and that. Thank you sir.
00:29:48
Hi. Try to Make a Deal. so, and the
00:30:00
Why is it the occult so popular in today's culture when we can
00:30:08
go to the grocery store? Not really have to worry about
00:30:11
season so much, you're not a farmer.
00:30:14
Well, you don't have to worry about that today.
00:30:18
That could all change. I mean, we haven't created a
00:30:23
system that guarantees Us full bellies in a warm place to sleep
00:30:27
and go to the bathroom forever. It's very temporary kind of
00:30:30
situation, all right? As somebody who's town has just
00:30:33
been wiped out by a tornado, all right, all that stuff.
00:30:35
You took for Gracie, that's nature at work and at the end of
00:30:40
the day before nature, even if we tap into some some benign
00:30:46
natural higher level force of reason and it gets us through
00:30:50
another day. Ultimately our days are going to
00:30:53
end and it just seems all fruitless but this is that
00:30:57
brings up. Another thing you're talking
00:30:58
about alchemy and one of the key elements the what does an
00:31:02
alchemist search for what is the end result of the magic of
00:31:07
things for lasting life? Immortality, Or is The
00:31:12
Alchemist? Would put it to recover that
00:31:15
which was stolen from Adam in Eden?
00:31:20
Because that would be that view that.
00:31:23
This was something that was within their grasp.
00:31:26
Remember they were just like one tree away from it.
00:31:29
And here again, there's one thing you've now attain
00:31:31
knowledge, right? We're supposed to do that.
00:31:34
You've gotta know something. And this is, you know, it's you
00:31:39
know, right there in Genesis we have to stop man for reaching
00:31:43
out a eating the tree of life, or he will become like us I
00:31:47
don't know who the US is in that regard, but that cannot be
00:31:50
permitted. And therefore, so from The
00:31:55
Alchemist Viewpoint, let's say from the sort of you know,
00:31:59
Mechanical occultist, Viewpoint that do something that fits the
00:32:03
origin of think of this idea that somehow immortality or
00:32:08
which then it means Godlike power or godhood itself is a
00:32:14
kind of human birth, right? So Christianity, you're
00:32:19
mentioning scripture the fall of Man, the follow mankind.
00:32:25
Alchemy picking up and trying to regain immortality.
00:32:29
But is that the Divide because you see them, it's kind of under
00:32:32
the same tent. I see him as a divide and Faith
00:32:36
or at least Christian judeo. Faith is leading to immortality
00:32:43
and a Salvation. Of that fall in the consequence
00:32:50
where it's a me, a cultism is going in a different Mystic,
00:32:59
man-made solution to me. It's where the dividers to me is
00:33:05
I can understand religions, being considered a cult, its
00:33:08
secret information, its rituals its chance, it's do this.
00:33:12
It's there's a lot of Mystic things going on, but if you get
00:33:15
rid of the church, it in the traditions and all that here's
00:33:19
my might take what I believe is true if you get right down to
00:33:26
the scripture and and let's say that's true for argument sake
00:33:32
are then it's the least hidden thing there is so the The pasta
00:33:39
Christian belief in Salvation was hidden until the Messiah was
00:33:45
revealed and then it all made sense and he explained it.
00:33:48
So once you get to the New Testament or the time of Christ,
00:33:51
nothing's hidden, the gospel is out there.
00:33:55
It's inclusive everybody, it's for everyone, everyone can
00:34:00
understand it, Jesus taught his disciples that you're not
00:34:05
servants anymore because Everything the father's told me
00:34:09
I've now shared with you so your friends I've shared with you
00:34:12
everything that was once hidden. or if another scripture New
00:34:19
Testament, says, if the gospel is hidden, Then it's hidden to
00:34:25
those who've been blinded and haven't seen the light of the
00:34:29
true gospel in the glory of Christ.
00:34:33
In the freedom. And you know, that that can
00:34:34
bring in, that's if it's hidden. But it also saying it's not
00:34:40
hidden. So to me Christianity takes a
00:34:43
divide at least it claims of itself.
00:34:46
This is not hidden, it's open for all where the occult is
00:34:50
secret. Hidden knowledge, or religion is
00:34:54
rituals and I agree with that and some man-made and sometimes
00:34:58
mystical things that don't come out of the simple gospel as
00:35:01
presented in the scripture. We were talking about
00:35:04
immortality, you're talking about, say an alchemist and
00:35:11
Christians approach the immortality.
00:35:13
Yeah, they're really two very different things because what
00:35:22
the alchemical approach to immortality is and if you look
00:35:26
at today in the in the sense of transhumanism or the idea of the
00:35:30
singularity of somehow the joining You know, there's a lot
00:35:33
of people out there who eventually want to download
00:35:35
themselves into a computer and then become an eternal program.
00:35:38
So, but yeah. But what do you mean by
00:35:41
immortality? Do you mean to live forever as a
00:35:45
human being in this reality? To remain in this world.
00:35:52
Of our senses in human form or something like human form with
00:35:57
your name and identity is it is now forever.
00:36:02
But which is another way of saying that you will be trapped
00:36:05
in that you could never transform and do anything else.
00:36:09
You would be limited by this reality and that goes back into
00:36:13
the one thing that the fundamental thing at argue that
00:36:15
every form of religion, the cult ever, they want to throw.
00:36:18
It is the belief that there was a greater reality.
00:36:22
There's a greater reality. And there is a hidden reality
00:36:27
and and and there is a somehow, there is a greater us within
00:36:31
that greater reality. There is a thing that that
00:36:36
almost in some sense that that what we are in the physical
00:36:39
world, this is really, yes, getting out there.
00:36:41
But is, is something that we are in Whitney Way board or in some
00:36:45
way, hoping to transcend, now, one of the things you would do,
00:36:49
I would think that in terms of Christian immortality is not
00:36:52
living here forever, As John Smith, it is transcending into a
00:37:02
greater reality and a greater sense.
00:37:06
It is it is growing close. It is is really becoming part of
00:37:10
this kind of larger reality and it's simply that fillable,
00:37:15
belief that there is, there is there is a world which is It's
00:37:20
not necessarily hidden from us and I'm sure Nicole could argue
00:37:23
that it's not there that you can't see it.
00:37:26
It's just that your attention has to be drawn to it, you know?
00:37:29
It's again like this idea that if you just shut up and listen,
00:37:32
yeah, world is talking to you, but you have to listen, it's
00:37:35
always there in some way. Even in the Christian
00:37:38
Perspective are all saying it's open.
00:37:41
It still adds caveats to seek and you will find knock and the
00:37:45
door will be opened. There still a Pursuit?
00:37:52
Okay, that's nasty. Yeah.
00:37:54
And that's true in. Well, it began come into another
00:37:59
basic idea and cons, is everything have sought to
00:38:01
intention but that's something going to the series.
00:38:03
I keep mentioning over and over and over again.
00:38:06
Every you know, whether it's, you know, black magic or white
00:38:09
magic is merely a matter of intention.
00:38:13
What do you want? There's, there's a movie that
00:38:19
came out a few years ago called the, which I don't know if you
00:38:21
ever saw that. It's about it's you know, it's
00:38:23
about this. You know which rather unlucky
00:38:26
Puritan. Family, Colonial New England.
00:38:28
I did see it. But it's, but that has there is
00:38:31
a particular scene towards the end of that and it's when the
00:38:37
our protagonist hamsun the girl, the only surviving member of her
00:38:40
family, finally decides that she's just going to try to talk
00:38:44
to this satanic goat. This dope, cold black Philip was
00:38:48
she now realizes his apparently, the representation of the evil
00:38:51
one. Yeah.
00:38:52
You know, and she just, you know, she's trying to talk to it
00:38:56
and and at first she thinks she's unsuccessful and then it
00:39:00
speaks to her and says what Dost thou want.
00:39:06
Okay. Now that is a very fundamental
00:39:12
and important question for anyone.
00:39:16
Who is either seeking, I don't know anything from salvation to
00:39:22
searching for the Philosopher's Stone.
00:39:24
Okay? That's the first thing that
00:39:26
anything in this greater World. Anything, you contact with, will
00:39:30
ask you. What do you want?
00:39:32
Why are you here? and her response then to Black
00:39:37
Phillip the devil his What can you give any begins to list off
00:39:43
these things? Like the taste of butter.
00:39:47
Pretty dresses to see the world. Notice that what he's offering
00:39:50
are purely worldly. Delights, that would match for
00:39:54
butter? Yes, yeah.
00:39:56
Well, you know, time and place butter was a big deal.
00:40:00
Sure. You a little, she had.
00:40:02
But I thought that, that seems sort of brought this down that,
00:40:05
you know, he, you know, that that will be the fundamental And
00:40:10
you'll get in some way. What do you want?
00:40:13
so let me ask you this, I'm not going to ask you to share
00:40:16
anything personal you don't want to, so it's not even that
00:40:18
question, but if I understood you right at the beginning, when
00:40:21
you're talking about, Well, I think I asked you.
00:40:25
Why are you into this or what's your perspective and I think you
00:40:31
alluded to that, you can what you believe and what you know,
00:40:36
can be two different things and I think you were saying that
00:40:41
possibly some of what you believe is what you personally
00:40:44
have encountered or experienced. Not asking you to share that but
00:40:48
that I get that right. Yeah.
00:40:51
If you're willing to share, that would be awesome.
00:40:54
Well, let's put it this way. The question is, how much am I
00:40:56
actually into all of this stuff and I'd say I'm a lot more
00:40:59
interested in the idea in terms of practice.
00:41:02
I mean You know, I've kind of gone to the ball.
00:41:07
I'm not sure. I've danced.
00:41:09
Let's put it that way, but I've watched other people do it.
00:41:13
I won't sign of God. Yes.
00:41:15
I know. I have not I have not subscribed
00:41:17
by name in any large black book in blood?
00:41:19
No, I have not made any packs or any man, Any Man in Black on the
00:41:22
crossroads somewhere, you know, but that was one of those I
00:41:28
think I'm sitting, I went keys and sort of one episode as to
00:41:31
whether or not, I think was the introductory I said, well, where
00:41:34
are we going to? We're going to learn how to some
00:41:36
it, make a pact with the devil and no, but, you know, the end
00:41:40
of it. It's very simple as to, how you
00:41:42
would do that. All you got to do is want to all
00:41:46
right, right. You'll have to sign anything in
00:41:48
a book. You all your memory.
00:41:50
It all comes down to the intention that you would have.
00:41:55
Well, you know, I don't know. I can say that was kind of
00:41:57
offered and I It down. So it did not appeal to me.
00:42:01
But the careful is curiosity killed, the cat.
00:42:04
I heard he's got 99 lives, but it was, you know, I suppose
00:42:09
further that comes back to what I want.
00:42:11
What kind of a religious background do I have because
00:42:13
everybody has one. So, the fairly simple answer to
00:42:17
that would be. I grew up in a fairly
00:42:20
conventional I would say working class lower middle class home,
00:42:27
you know, my dad. I'd worked in a grocery store.
00:42:29
My mom was a housewife, all right?
00:42:32
And that was. And so, my mom was fairly
00:42:38
religious. And what I described as very
00:42:42
sort of a Conservative calvinist Christian, they're, they're very
00:42:45
calvinist. All right.
00:42:46
Sorry Nation things. Very big there Julep, and she
00:42:51
remembered part. I'm sorry, I just mentioned to.
00:42:54
Let's do you remember the doctor and that five doctrines felt
00:42:57
tool? Lip and albinism.
00:43:01
So and she would, you know, I won't use the term she would
00:43:06
drag me to church. But I was never terribly
00:43:10
interested in going. But I was, I was exposed to, I
00:43:14
think good calvinist Doctrine for some time and I kind of
00:43:20
learned it, but it, you know, for one reason or other, it
00:43:22
never took right? Just never never.
00:43:25
Grabbed me. Well in reformed theology.
00:43:28
It does or it doesn't, and that's the whole place either.
00:43:31
But and on my dad's side, you know, I think they were
00:43:36
Catholics. I'm not entirely sure, I don't
00:43:39
think he ever. I'm did.
00:43:41
He met on a couple of occasions of actually set foot in some
00:43:45
sort of church, but that would not be the case.
00:43:47
So he and my mom were completely separate.
00:43:49
That was the whole sort of her element of it, but her family,
00:43:53
there was, there was a, you know, a good deal of I mean,
00:43:58
they all came from Texas and Oklahoma, which will give you a
00:44:02
pretty good idea of what sort of standard Southern practicing,
00:44:06
Christianity. They came from. and, So it was
00:44:12
one of those things that, you know, I was certainly willing to
00:44:17
look at other things that came along.
00:44:18
I always say that in terms of the first, sort of practical
00:44:21
exposure, anything that could be called, you know, spooky kind of
00:44:24
occultism was when I was a teenager and some of my friends
00:44:28
got together and we started playing with a Ouija board.
00:44:33
So that's one of those things that I will simply suffice to
00:44:38
say is on the one hand, a game, a joke, a child's plaything, it
00:44:42
is meaningless. But it all depends on your
00:44:46
intention is, and remember, it. All comes back to.
00:44:49
What do you want? Why are you here?
00:44:56
Now? Everything out there is a lot of
00:45:00
we had a lot of fun and there are also things that were proved
00:45:04
to be disturbing and frightening.
00:45:07
Yeah, you're doing what I talked about, knocking on a door and
00:45:11
sometimes somebody answers. Oh, yes.
00:45:13
Yeah. And then, you know, they won't
00:45:16
go away. Yeah.
00:45:18
Yeah. But there were, there were some
00:45:20
experiences related to that. Well, I'm fact I talked about
00:45:27
one of them in this series. I think there was, there was
00:45:29
actually more of that that I put in there that I've actually put,
00:45:31
they actually plan to but the one that sort of sour the whole
00:45:36
thing for us, this group of people who would get around and
00:45:39
play with this, you know we were probably talking about something
00:45:43
we were talking about we were teenage boys, we were talking
00:45:45
about girls. All right, and there was a
00:45:48
particular name that came up. I didn't really know her very
00:45:51
well but I knew who she was and you know what we call.
00:45:55
The Ouija, which was our term for whatever it was, we thought
00:45:59
sort of operated this thing and I was one of the things that we
00:46:02
were all, you know, felt I would say that I that I fairly came
00:46:07
into that believing without knowing was that there's, there
00:46:10
was something else there besides us.
00:46:13
That was not, I don't know, maybe I'm perfectly willing to
00:46:16
listen to The Narrative. That it was all some sort of,
00:46:19
you know, creation of our Collective sigh.
00:46:21
I don't, I don't know what it was.
00:46:23
Everybody was okay. Yeah.
00:46:26
And you know, I would give these kind of foot than answers to
00:46:31
thing. And anyway her name was
00:46:33
mentioned and it said that while she very soon, she's going to
00:46:39
lose her head. And we didn't pay much attention
00:46:43
to that at the time and not long afterwards.
00:46:47
There was a horrific car wreck in, which she was involved in
00:46:50
and she was decapitated. Oh my gosh.
00:46:54
It sticks with you. Will you know, it's one of those
00:46:59
things that sort of brought home because you know, is we would
00:47:02
play around with us. There was always this kind of,
00:47:04
you know, we were always constantly accuse the somebody
00:47:06
else. Half-jokingly, only half
00:47:07
jokingly of pushing it because you never really know that.
00:47:11
I mean, you know, I would never come up with that, but I don't
00:47:14
know whether Melvin over here might actually, you know, it was
00:47:17
that some sort of strange thing that he was thinking of And so
00:47:21
is somebody influencing this in some way?
00:47:25
And that was one of those things.
00:47:26
It was in some ways if you want to put it these sort of nail in
00:47:30
the coffin of a realization that you know, this this isn't just
00:47:35
okay, that wasn't an accident, that's what we will.
00:47:37
Felt that it wasn't, it wasn't just an accident or or who is
00:47:41
meaningless coincidence. That that was mentioned about a
00:47:45
person and then that's exactly what happened.
00:47:49
Something that her Terrific that rarely asked.
00:47:52
And and you know, I think that Puerto kind of put a collecting
00:47:55
chill down. Our spines and thereafter.
00:47:59
We sort of fell away from it yet.
00:48:02
He became something less and less less, and less Pleasant.
00:48:06
Well, that's good. There was much of it.
00:48:09
You know. There are, there were many, many
00:48:10
joyful hours that were spent playing around.
00:48:13
Yeah, it's a Parker Brother game.
00:48:15
How bad could it be? It is so if you don't mind
00:48:19
sharing my And you're into Supernatural things.
00:48:22
I'll tell you my story or why I do a christian-based podcast,
00:48:26
it's not to point fingers, at people, it's to talk to
00:48:28
interesting people about things that I think people should talk
00:48:30
about the cult in history, that Spirit things.
00:48:33
They're charlatans and there's something real going on.
00:48:36
And so I do come up from Christian perspective, on it,
00:48:40
meaning My faith doesn't. I think it is logical and
00:48:47
academically sound the stories through scripture and it divides
00:48:53
things in the dark kingdom and a light Kingdom, and it, kind of
00:48:56
simplifies things. But I'll tell you my
00:48:58
Supernatural, experience that I don't know if I've shared with
00:49:02
most of my family. So if you don't mind, I'll just
00:49:03
kind of do a little public because I'm talking to a guy
00:49:06
who's into this. So, when I was a child, I have a
00:49:09
specific memory specific of hearing a voice.
00:49:15
Just my first name. Clear as day.
00:49:19
However, my mother was standing next to me and didn't hear it.
00:49:22
So it was not audible, but it wasn't my imagination.
00:49:27
It stuck with me to this day. I'm 53 years old, I never forgot
00:49:31
that moment and from that moment so that was pre studying the
00:49:34
Bible or whatnot. So I had from the beginning, a
00:49:39
belief that God was real and I just thought everybody believed
00:49:42
that and I thought that happened everybody.
00:49:45
And I don't know why it happened but it was not a dream was not
00:49:49
my imagination. Of course, isn't my story and I
00:49:54
let it go. I become a student of a young
00:49:57
student of Theology and everything having to do with the
00:50:02
Bible and whatnot. I'm curiosity, just assuming
00:50:05
it's all real. But I just live my normal
00:50:09
Teenage life fast-forward to 15. I'm at a youth camp and I'm kind
00:50:13
of like obnoxious and this is all for churches, dumb and
00:50:19
boring and it's just kind of boring.
00:50:22
You know, a lot of nerds are here doing weird nerdy things.
00:50:26
And long story short, is they have a traveling evangelist guy
00:50:29
in and he basically calls me out and Whispers in my ear that and
00:50:37
told me exactly. It happened when I was like a
00:50:39
kid that I never told anybody except my mother who never met
00:50:43
this guy that had such a profound.
00:50:46
Oh. And that the end of the message
00:50:49
was it was exactly what happened to me.
00:50:51
And that this is a reminder that there's a call on your life.
00:50:57
Now, As I Grew Older, I realized I think every human being has a
00:51:00
call from God on their life. It's whether how they hear it or
00:51:04
choose not to like, you talked about intention, Fast forward.
00:51:09
I'm almost done with my story. I then never slowed down, I
00:51:13
actively pursued like with a passion, this stuff's real.
00:51:17
Not everybody realizes it? I want people to know what's
00:51:21
written in scriptures. True and around the 20s ish.
00:51:27
I had What you would call right? Out of the book of Acts
00:51:33
Pentecostal experience where from that moment on.
00:51:38
I mean, I pieces about feelings, was 45 minutes in countering a
00:51:45
spiritual Dimension. I won't go into detail because I
00:51:50
don't if I could explain it, but amazing from that point on I've
00:51:56
really never lost that fervor like, It's the truth or
00:52:01
scriptures seem to open up to me a lot of like the what you'd
00:52:04
call gifts of the Spirit kind of opened up.
00:52:07
So I feel like I've lived sort of a supernatural life in that
00:52:11
realm. So I'm 100% Believe ver, in a
00:52:17
lot of the occult stuff is open Pathways to darker entity
00:52:24
entities and stuff, but I also believe it is as simple as a
00:52:28
kingdom of darkness, in a kingdom of light and and that's
00:52:32
that's my story. So we're like 95% on the same
00:52:35
page. Yeah.
00:52:36
Well, you know, you just described one of the archetypal
00:52:40
human experiences that people have thought you had a spiritual
00:52:42
experience. Yeah.
00:52:44
And And you know, and I would Hazard to say that you can sit
00:52:48
there and you can explain to me and give me much longer
00:52:51
explanations of what it was like, but you know, that you
00:52:53
would never be able to describe what it was really like.
00:52:57
In some of these people in the past, I read their stories,
00:53:02
adult Thai, people and like that's Charlotte and Charlotte
00:53:05
them. But at some of them, I read them
00:53:07
and like, know they've had a real experience and but it was
00:53:12
more of a darker and You whether envelope here that way or not?
00:53:19
Well, you can, you know, let's see if we go back, we haven't
00:53:22
mentioned it yet. Aleister Crowley.
00:53:23
Okay, so we can't talk about the occult without mentioned.
00:53:26
Aleister Crowley Sergeant Pepper's, Lonely Hearts Club
00:53:29
Band. Yes.
00:53:46
What would be today described as a strictly Christian
00:53:49
fundamentalist household. And and his father was a lay
00:53:54
Minister who spent his like, you know, going out spending the
00:53:57
family's money. Do you know, leaving business in
00:53:59
preaching the gospel. And so there's an interesting
00:54:02
though, that that Pro leave the fellow who becomes supposedly
00:54:05
the arch Satanist of the 20th century grew up in a Christian
00:54:10
fundamentalist, that's what he was exposed to every day of his
00:54:13
childhood and again, apparently didn't take but or it turns him
00:54:19
at the opposite house, usually don't you find I know a lot of
00:54:22
that is true though they grow up with kind of a religion based.
00:54:26
So, they're comfortable and spirituality, but never really
00:54:30
took, and they just Branch off somewhere else.
00:54:34
That's it. The, he became he followed in
00:54:37
his speech. He greatly admired, his father
00:54:39
had big issues with his mother, which probably explains a lot,
00:54:42
but his father died, I think when he was 11.
00:54:44
And so, he never said anything bad about his father, he'd he
00:54:49
is, his father was this almost did was this.
00:54:52
This beloved figure to him that he'd only knowing I did that
00:54:55
again probably had something psychologically to do with, but
00:54:58
he, he did literally follow in his Father's Footsteps, but
00:55:03
becoming the proponent of a religion.
00:55:07
It was just another. It was his, it was his
00:55:09
replacement for Christianity, which consumed was he models to
00:55:12
be kind of the opposite of the Plymouth Brethren that he was
00:55:17
raised in. And yet the interesting thing to
00:55:19
notice is that he doesn't sort of as Escape his fate, he simply
00:55:24
takes it in a different direction but cruelly to the
00:55:28
whole point of his career to me, people would probably argue
00:55:31
this. But the thing that I get out of
00:55:33
it this was a guy that at some point early on in his exposure
00:55:37
to what would be called The Occult or to spirituality
00:55:39
whatever name you would want to give to it.
00:55:42
Is it something sort of reached out and communicated with him?
00:55:45
You know, the saying goes something reached out from the
00:55:47
great beyond and it touched him and he became aware of its
00:55:50
fundamental reality. And he had this this trend is in
00:55:53
his experience that you don't come back from you.
00:55:55
Never look at the world the same way again because you realize
00:55:59
that there's more to it than you thought there was there before.
00:56:02
But the great frustration is that that's that happened and
00:56:05
then it was never repeated and most of Crowley's career, all of
00:56:10
this stuff he's doing Doing is to try to.
00:56:15
Renew or re-establish contact. With these, you know, he talked
00:56:21
about the Secret Chiefs, who he thought were these sort of
00:56:24
spiritual being is these mahatma's, and then were they,
00:56:29
the ones who would have, but but but, but they seem to have
00:56:32
abandoned him. And and that I think you can
00:56:36
find this. If you look in other stories of
00:56:39
people who sought, you know, sock Enlightenment is that, you
00:56:44
know, sometimes you get a sometimes, you get just a little
00:56:46
part of it. And then nothing more.
00:56:51
I mean you have to think about what in some ways could be more
00:56:53
maddening than to suddenly become aware that there is this
00:56:56
greater Wanderers world. Full of all kind of knowledge in
00:56:59
a reality that you can't and then You never never answers
00:57:04
again. There's no, there's no knock on
00:57:07
the door. What's so funny?
00:57:10
What's his Excellence on culture Crowley's influence on culture?
00:57:14
Yeah, even today. Do you see it?
00:57:16
Do you see? It's still like a foundational.
00:57:19
I mean, he I think a lot of people approach him is him into
00:57:25
a kind of symbol of something, they don't understand.
00:57:28
Okay? And you know, it's the idea
00:57:31
there's there are people who seriously practice occultism in
00:57:35
the same way. There are people who seriously
00:57:38
practice Christianity. And then there are a lot of
00:57:40
people who just, you know, for lack of a better term half
00:57:44
asset, all right, make no serious effort at.
00:57:47
Never really think about what they're doing.
00:57:50
And, you know, there are other people who play around with
00:57:52
things and and Curly has become A symbol for a lot of things, he
00:58:00
probably wouldn't want anything to do it, but he was, he was
00:58:03
very popular, he had this. He was well, he was a man who
00:58:08
throughout his life claim to rejected all the moral
00:58:11
strictures of decent society and he took pride in that.
00:58:16
Okay, he did, he took pride in and apparently thumbing his nose
00:58:19
at at the morality of the era didn't have a house on Blackness
00:58:24
for a period of time. Bolus skin house.
00:58:25
Yeah, which was supposedly haunted and there was more.
00:58:28
Hi. That, I mean it has to be
00:58:29
haunted, right? But he was in most other ways,
00:58:36
he was. He was this very sort of
00:58:38
conventional upper-middle-class, Englishmen and and was no, it's
00:58:45
it's this question now, there are cruelly i'ts out there and
00:58:49
I'm not a cruelly act. All right, I don't, I find him
00:58:52
interesting. You know, the same sort of
00:58:54
thing. It didn't really take but but I
00:58:58
find his find his interest and his sort of narrative
00:59:01
interesting in that. Case.
00:59:03
But yeah, I wouldn't want to necessarily do the same thing.
00:59:08
He tried to become like an icon. Meaning he looked so posed in a
00:59:15
lot of us. Photograph.
00:59:16
The question is, how much of what he's doing is an act?
00:59:19
Yeah, like Anton LaVey and seems a base case like an actor.
00:59:25
It's an act. Yeah, he's playing a character.
00:59:29
I mean, look at, look at the way he's dressed.
00:59:31
He looks like he's what What should a Satanist look like
00:59:34
Dracula? I'm going to look like Dracula
00:59:37
and then put that together with the fact that you used to work
00:59:39
in a carnival. And then I think that explains
00:59:43
it was very handy in approaching this and does that mean that
00:59:47
maybe on some level of a didn't take himself seriously?
00:59:52
Well, he's went on record. Is basically saying they didn't
00:59:54
believe in Satan is any kind of actual bullying.
00:59:56
You know, he didn't leave any of this but it was just it was a
01:00:01
symbol for what? He argued was just enlightened
01:00:04
self-interest. I made a comment on an episode.
01:00:07
I got reamed on YouTube. I think about that I should be
01:00:11
reported. Wouldn't be the first time I
01:00:14
said something about Anton LaVey not specifically am but Satanism
01:00:20
and that in his book, The Satanic Bible basically.
01:00:26
Yeah. He doesn't believe in a real
01:00:27
Satan but it's a philosophy and basically the fossa fee is the
01:00:33
same as Aleister Crowley's. Fiery, got it from Route is do
01:00:36
what? Thou Wilt?
01:00:37
That's the whole of the law basically a freedom or just a
01:00:41
rebellion against laws. And Society or morality and
01:00:45
venerable in, and I just added to that.
01:00:49
That that seems to be the culture of the day, is just kind
01:00:52
of do what you want. Just don't hurt other people.
01:00:56
Well, if you look at Croley became very popular in the 60s,
01:01:01
maintains a popular, he's much more popular today than he ever
01:01:05
was. When he was alive, he was not
01:01:07
widely known, he dies in 47, did the Beatles help that?
01:01:12
Or were they jumping on a bandwagon?
01:01:14
They started anyway. Yeah, I mean the doors, you
01:01:17
know, name a 60s Don't rock group and I could, you know,
01:01:22
nine times out of 10. There's somebody and it was a
01:01:24
follower of Aleister Crowley or thought they were.
01:01:27
Yeah. But what he represented was, you
01:01:30
know, do what thou Wilt seem to be a pretty good, you know.
01:01:35
Cited felly dated version of Do Your Own Thing which be on a
01:01:39
very popular matter at the time. And he became he was embraced as
01:01:45
a symbol of the counterculture. So, remember when you were
01:01:49
talking about whatever that was, you know, I'm, you know, and I
01:01:53
lived through it but I can't tell you exactly what it was.
01:01:56
But the whole concept of the counterculture was it was a kind
01:01:58
of rejection, you know. It was a rejection of your
01:02:00
parents way of doing things and they're kind of reality and you
01:02:04
know, whatever they had done was uncool and therefore, in some
01:02:07
way that meant that, whatever the opposite of that was was
01:02:11
cool. And so Alice Probably became
01:02:13
cool even though I will guarantee you that the vast
01:02:17
majority of people who thought into his name was, you know, had
01:02:20
no concept if anything he'd ever stood or what it was that he
01:02:23
stood for. Yeah, which is surprisingly
01:02:26
complicated because he says different things at different
01:02:30
times. And part of what he's doing is
01:02:34
an act. There was a character he was
01:02:37
playing and, and that character was this kind of, you know,
01:02:42
wickedest man of the world. I mean, it's newspapers given
01:02:45
these and wickedest man in the world.
01:02:46
A man. We'd like to hang.
01:02:47
Yeah. And initially, you know, he kind
01:02:50
of thought that was cool. I mean, if you know, if you get
01:02:53
newspapers so pissed off they'll call you the wickedest man of
01:02:56
the world, you achieve something, haven't you well, the
01:02:59
problem is is that that sticks with you, okay, the stink
01:03:03
doesn't blow away and then you find that ultimately you are
01:03:08
defined By the role that you have played.
01:03:12
Or in other words, the role begins to play you.
01:03:16
I think you sound sympathetic to holistic probably in some ways.
01:03:22
Yeah, I mean, yeah. I think he gets at me and he's
01:03:24
not really poor guy. You couldn't really describe him
01:03:28
as a Satanist and you could describe him as a lot of things.
01:03:31
But in but in terms of LaVey type care, he's Well, you know,
01:03:38
there were lots of things. The two things that I would
01:03:41
certainly agree, I think this, what the writer who knew him,
01:03:43
Dennis Wheatley was said, is that he would never alone,
01:03:46
Aleister Crowley money nor leave him alone with his children.
01:03:50
So right. But the part of the reason for
01:03:53
the latter thing is something that I've been accused of is
01:03:55
that telling him scary stories. Okay, so I've done that parents
01:04:01
generally don't appreciate it even though it is fun at the
01:04:03
time and I believe ultimately good for The children but big
01:04:10
cruelly is he's a he's like everybody else, you know, it's
01:04:14
like any kind of human being. You begin to look at him and
01:04:16
they certainly turn complicated on you.
01:04:18
They're contrary inconsistent and they seem to be one thing
01:04:22
one day and something else, but if you're really somewhere
01:04:27
looking for the wickedest man of the 20th century, which would be
01:04:30
quite a contest. And, you know, the best
01:04:35
representative of the prince of Darkness is probably really
01:04:37
wouldn't be cruelly. Yeah, he simply become the kind
01:04:41
of poster boy. For that.
01:04:45
It is a, however, my kind of litmus test.
01:04:47
If I run across someone who goes, you know, like Oh I'm a
01:04:52
Wiccan, I've been all kinds of wiccans.
01:04:54
Yeah, and so one of the first things I'll right there is to
01:04:59
figure out which one. Do they know who Aleister?
01:05:01
Crowley is because if you don't, all right.
01:05:05
Just get. Yeah you're not serious.
01:05:09
When I know you probably know this but in Salem Juice.
01:05:13
'It's I'll time someone recently but over 60%, they claim of the
01:05:19
residents are claimed to be wiccans.
01:05:23
Well, that would be the place to be and that would be the place
01:05:26
to be a but yeah, that's, that's pretty eye.
01:05:28
Yeah, and yeah, that would be even more ironic, in a way if it
01:05:33
was all based upon witchcraft that never happened in.
01:05:35
Salem witch, who knows? Might have great rather the
01:05:40
whole basis. It's an interesting thing that
01:05:42
people turn things into you know, weird.
01:05:45
A 17th century witchcraft trials in Salem about which the jury is
01:05:49
still out as to whether there was ever anything, you know was
01:05:52
there anything I mean witchcraft exists and people did practice
01:05:57
it. This is one of the things you
01:05:58
have to keep in mind. There were people who were
01:06:01
witches, all right? But how much of that was
01:06:06
actually going on in Salem in the 1690s is debatable.
01:06:11
But nevertheless that has now become this kind of myth that
01:06:15
Modern wiccans are people who see see some sort of kinship,
01:06:19
they think with you never existed.
01:06:21
It was that mainly a money grab for people's property and stuff
01:06:25
and could have been come on, that's bullshit.
01:06:28
And, you know, hysterical baseless or bored teenagers or
01:06:34
what? Some kind of wheat bad wheat
01:06:36
barley or something in there. Yeah.
01:06:38
See you can we know these things happened and I we can come up
01:06:42
with six different stories as to what?
01:06:44
Yeah. But hold that.
01:06:45
Kind of certain amount of sense as to why they happened, but
01:06:49
with the end of the day, we still don't know whether anybody
01:06:51
was ever, you know, with a real witches or with this, just all a
01:06:56
horrible mistake but now you can believe whatever you want and
01:07:00
you can believe that you can call yourself a Wiccan and live
01:07:02
in Salem, Massachusetts in your continuing on the tradition,
01:07:06
that may be all Bs but you know, they live like his Halloween
01:07:10
year-round since I have you before.
01:07:15
I let you go one more, one more topic.
01:07:18
Is I can't let you go and not ask about even just an overview
01:07:26
of the relationship between the occult in the UFO phenomenon.
01:07:32
Well, that's one of those things.
01:07:33
All right, so clearly you know, in my professional career, I've
01:07:37
been into some weird stuff, you know, spies secret societies,
01:07:42
cultism. All right, wait, hey, I'm sorry
01:07:45
before you move on, and I don't think your mind because you like
01:07:48
prolly just briefly, what's the deal with him and British spy or
01:07:54
Espionage? Or I'm only halfway through that
01:07:56
episode. Oh, okay.
01:07:58
Well there's there's a book that I wrote about that.
01:08:02
It all secret agent 666. Yeah.
01:08:05
Which I could add more curly, was it different points in his
01:08:10
lifetime? He claimed to have worked for
01:08:11
British intelligence and that was generally pooh-poohed is him
01:08:15
just sort of, you know, making things up or exaggerating
01:08:20
something and what I did was I was actually doing some research
01:08:25
on another spy and while I was doing and I sent off for some
01:08:29
old US military intelligence files, These were the sort of
01:08:32
the internal secure. They were like the FBI in World
01:08:35
War one and they had dossiers on everybody.
01:08:38
And I just thought, well, you know, I've got a whole Crowley's
01:08:42
to see what that says, and sure enough there was one that showed
01:08:44
up and the key element in that. Is that within this, there is a
01:08:48
statement from the British Consulate in New York saying
01:08:51
that Pro Aleister. Crowley Americans are thinking
01:08:54
about arresting him and the British Consul is said that he
01:08:58
is on. He's on the business of the
01:09:00
British government in this country.
01:09:01
The consulate's knowledge and we know what he's doing.
01:09:03
So he's working for us. That wasn't see.
01:09:07
That's one of the things from in a story and they went to look
01:09:09
for because, what was there was a statement that Croley wasn't
01:09:14
making it up? It didn't say exactly what he
01:09:17
was doing, but it did say that when he said he was in the US
01:09:21
during World War 1 working for his Majesty's government, he
01:09:25
was, would you say that back? Would you suspect it at
01:09:29
something along the lines of spiritism or can you see into
01:09:35
the enemy? Lines and here radar beeps and
01:09:38
the other dimension where the subs are, or something like
01:09:40
that. No.
01:09:41
It had more to do with his, he's connected.
01:09:43
The people that he knew through his association with other
01:09:46
occult groups, especially German ones.
01:09:50
So one of the things that had happened a few years before
01:09:53
World War one is that he was initiated by a German occultist
01:09:57
and spy by the name of Theodore Royce into a German secret
01:10:02
society, a mechanism for greater Virtual awareness, that's what
01:10:07
they all offer. Call the Ordo, templi orientis,
01:10:09
the Oto still around today. And and through that probably
01:10:17
had connections to this whole european-wide Nexus.
01:10:22
You, this is one of the things that when you join clubs, you
01:10:25
know, people that you wouldn't meet otherwise, right?
01:10:29
So cruelly had this connection forged Before the War Two German
01:10:34
occultism. And there were people who were
01:10:37
part of the Oto and Kindred occult groups who held positions
01:10:41
of him. Importance in German
01:10:43
intelligence and Military Affairs, including those, in the
01:10:46
US, this gave him an entree to those people.
01:10:51
This was the way in the United States, that Croley gained the
01:10:55
confidence, which he did of German agents in the United
01:10:59
States and pretended to work for them.
01:11:01
And that's why they trusted him. That's that's what his role was.
01:11:06
His role was to To get as much information, he could from these
01:11:11
German occult circles and the official circles, they were
01:11:14
connected to, and then also to so disinformation among them to
01:11:19
gain their trust and deceive them.
01:11:22
And that then goes on that sort of pattern in, he's not
01:11:26
necessarily the most successful agent, he screws up on more than
01:11:32
one occasion. But if there's this kind of on
01:11:35
and off relationship between he and British intelligence and it
01:11:42
specifically with the British admiralty with British Naval
01:11:45
intelligence, is what he's connected to and that goes all
01:11:47
the way up through World War Two.
01:11:49
I think into the fold and You know completely random.
01:11:53
Yeah, you're an expert. I'm putting you on the spot.
01:11:55
What about the gong show guy? Did he really work for the CIA?
01:12:00
I have no idea. Chuck Barris I kind of hope so
01:12:04
C. So C this is a story and it
01:12:11
comes down to do. I like that story better than
01:12:13
this story. It is exactly which one I rather
01:12:16
have which would which would be more cool.
01:12:18
That was true Jack. Yeah that Chuck Barris.
01:12:21
Isn't a spy and an assassin for the CIA, or that he was, I think
01:12:25
it would be cooler that he was. There would be much further, so
01:12:30
maybe UFOs. All right, so let's put it this
01:12:34
way. For all the weird stuff I've
01:12:36
been interested in, in my career UFOs were not one of them
01:12:39
believe it or not, okay. And that was because I just it
01:12:44
just seemed to be, there is nothing to it, all right.
01:12:48
I ain't did there there, you know, I very much want to see
01:12:50
something so it's like Bigfoot. I feel exactly the same way show
01:12:54
me up. Yeah.
01:12:55
Okay. Show me it.
01:12:56
Okay. I don't care whether it's dead
01:12:58
or alive, but I want to see it then, it's real.
01:13:01
Otherwise, you know. Yeah.
01:13:03
What's up with that? And making things up and people
01:13:10
are really good at making things up.
01:13:11
So there's no Bigfoot thing fall under just myth legend, or does
01:13:16
it kind of fall into like is anytime you do.
01:13:19
There's groups of people that believe in something that is
01:13:22
literally hidden, right? I mean, that's the whole idea.
01:13:25
Like this thing the same with lockness.
01:13:27
He's obviously not there. They scan the bottom of this
01:13:30
place, but these kind of if they almost become like they're not
01:13:35
called. So it's not a religion.
01:13:36
In but people are such Believers in something with no proof.
01:13:40
Well, it gets close to being a religion in some cases, you
01:13:44
know, it's know. There are people that can give
01:13:46
you great details apparently about how, you know, Sasquatch,
01:13:49
pick your name, but we'll stick with that one.
01:13:51
How they live, what their sex habits are?
01:13:53
What they eat, everything that's fair really.
01:13:57
Okay. So, you know, that that is one
01:14:00
of the, I will admit in this is. And, you know, this is my
01:14:03
Approach in a cult is you got to show me.
01:14:06
All right, so on a couple of occasions as we've alluded to
01:14:10
well, he showed me all right. But other than that.
01:14:14
So UFOs quite frankly, I tended not to I thought it was just
01:14:20
sort of a waste of time and that there didn't seem but but again
01:14:25
I didn't I'm not in a purse from the standpoint of it do bunker
01:14:29
because there are other people who seem to be fixated you know
01:14:33
it's a bit like here we can pick on somebody else. it's a
01:14:36
theists, okay, people who make a big deal out of being atheist
01:14:40
and constantly at look If you don't believe in any sort of
01:14:44
God, then why are you wasting your time?
01:14:47
Trying to be done with it? Are you wasting your time trying
01:14:50
to argue for the non-existence of something that you know,
01:14:53
which is otherwise ignore, right?
01:14:55
So to me a true, atheist isn't interested someone who was a
01:15:01
militant atheist as someone who's actually deeply religious
01:15:04
and fighting it but fighting it for kiss, there's you're trying
01:15:09
too hard. But so the UFO stuff doesn't
01:15:14
mean that I didn't think maybe there was.
01:15:16
I mean, this is one of the things that clearly there's some
01:15:19
sort of phenomenon which take goes.
01:15:21
Okay. There are people see, strange
01:15:23
things flying around in the sky that can't be readily explained,
01:15:29
okay? That that, that happened.
01:15:31
That's real. I mean, long before long before
01:15:34
Roswell come along before Roswell, this is this is nothing
01:15:37
new. Maybe people have been freaked
01:15:38
out by things in the sky from Time and Memorial.
01:15:41
There's always something going on up there.
01:15:43
Yeah, so that there is this, there is a phenomenon of
01:15:47
unidentified flying objects. But then to make the leap that
01:15:53
the only possible source for them is extraterrestrial that
01:15:58
this is evidence of and I have nothing against that idea.
01:16:02
I mean, this way this way, You know, given the small amount of
01:16:08
the universe, we can even kind of look at the chances of there
01:16:12
being some sort of what we would call intelligent life, seems to
01:16:15
be a virtual certainty. Now, whether they've ever come
01:16:17
to Earth? Well, that's a, that's a
01:16:19
possibility. So there's something out there.
01:16:23
Yeah, yeah. If they ever come here and
01:16:25
messed around with, this may be all right, so that could be what
01:16:29
some of the UFOs are about. But When I tend to look at that.
01:16:34
Well, the first thing that sounds jumps out to me is that
01:16:36
this is all sort of human-related.
01:16:38
First of all, all these aliens look, suspiciously like humans
01:16:42
for the most part, you know, I just thought the whole idea that
01:16:48
you come from Venus and you look like Thor and a jumpsuit.
01:16:52
I don't know why. Why would that I put that
01:16:55
necessarily be the case, but the other thing, this was the thing
01:16:59
that do. So, but some few years back, I
01:17:02
Got drawn into this. I got sucked into it because I
01:17:05
became interested in a particular figure.
01:17:08
Who was an important figure in the sort of early UFO.
01:17:11
Contactee moving in the 1950s. And his name is George hunt
01:17:15
Williamson. He go poking around and look at
01:17:18
all the George's. George adamski Van Tassel.
01:17:22
You're going to run into George hunt Williamson, George Jetson.
01:17:26
And when I began to look at that Williamson's career, what I
01:17:30
began to see through my habit of spy hunting, okay?
01:17:34
I've trying to figure people while people, you know what
01:17:36
people might be connected to intelligence agencies which you
01:17:40
know, quite a lot of those. But there are certain tells you
01:17:45
begin to look for and those include all sorts of things and
01:17:49
kind of odd incongruous things in military records, or a part
01:17:54
of it, also people change. Their identities.
01:17:58
It can also mean they're crazy but it can also mean you've been
01:18:01
ordered to do that, but I just looking at Williamson and I go,
01:18:04
yeah, this this, there's something going on here.
01:18:08
And that's for I then begin to. You begin to run into the saucer
01:18:14
Cults, rise. And and they're all their whole
01:18:18
variety of saucer groups, or sauce of these kind of Quasi
01:18:21
religions. Some of them did become that the
01:18:24
aquarium move, It became part of it at the etherium society.
01:18:29
There are these whole, sort of spirit but they're all based on
01:18:32
the idea that the space Brothers, the beings are
01:18:36
spiritual emissaries, that are there are angels.
01:18:39
All right, just strip away the term.
01:18:42
And 500 years ago, these would be angels and now again the
01:18:45
coming they're going to, I've picked you.
01:18:47
They do it. Angels always, do they come to
01:18:50
somebody? I don't know out in the desert
01:18:52
somewhere and they go that you know, you've been chosen.
01:18:56
In for a special Mission, little man and gain.
01:18:58
We're and that's notice that that never ends well for the
01:19:01
human, okay. It's just, you know, martyrdom
01:19:05
awaits those cases. But they said they were an angel
01:19:11
and see that's an interesting question.
01:19:14
Okay, being shows up Shining Light, all the rest of this and
01:19:18
tells you, they're an angel and I have something they want you
01:19:21
to do. So, why do you believe them?
01:19:28
But people do. So you know these people have
01:19:30
this have these experience so it can be there having these occult
01:19:35
experiences with angels and then they're forming these whole kind
01:19:39
of belief systems about them. And this this was the key to be
01:19:43
how is it that George hunt Williams and begins?
01:19:46
His communication? What is the first way he
01:19:48
communicates and continues to communicate with
01:19:52
extraterrestrials Ouija board, right?
01:19:58
They start talking to Spacemen on a Ouija board and you know,
01:20:03
it really you been able to get all the way here with your
01:20:07
technology, then you would use a Ouija board to keep going to
01:20:10
talk through a cardboard, Parker, Brothers game.
01:20:13
Yes. So what it was it was all is
01:20:17
continuing to use the, they're a cult concepts of the ascended
01:20:21
Master. It is theosophy.
01:20:24
Yeah and that's one of those things I'd say.
01:20:28
That for anybody who's uninitiated and theosophy.
01:20:30
It is the kind of, if you look at anything which is today
01:20:33
described as new age, You're going to find theosophy at the
01:20:37
root of it and he was the 19th century creation of his
01:20:41
spiritual Society for enlightenment of the masses
01:20:45
based on a fusion of Western and basically Indian occultism.
01:20:51
Sort of a combination of mystical Christianity Hinduism
01:20:54
and Buddhism into one big new agey soup, brought to us
01:20:58
courtesy of Helen Belinsky. But I say that, right?
01:21:01
Yeah. Blavatsky well that's Also kind
01:21:11
of a fraud. So, you know she was accused
01:21:13
pretty clearly of, but, you know, fraud or not fraud or not,
01:21:18
I think you say over and over again in your episodes, it's
01:21:21
like, does it matter. Because what's the outcome, the
01:21:24
outcome is, the Nazis caught on to it took an interpretation and
01:21:29
it goes through history and whether it's 100% truth or not,
01:21:33
it seems like these occult ideas.
01:21:35
Has just get repurposed and for new generations and just
01:21:39
remarketed and different, you know, his drunken when things
01:21:42
are. There's one thing we're good at.
01:21:44
It's really sort of glomming onto an idea and just you know
01:21:48
caring it to his logical or illogical conclusion, no matter
01:21:51
what. So it's it is the And it's this
01:21:58
this kind of constant struggle. Again there there's there is a
01:22:02
argument make it within that within a cult ISM.
01:22:06
With in spirituality, is a whole there's always this battle
01:22:08
between what a French esotericist won't call him a
01:22:13
name of running and we talked about the genuine tradition and
01:22:17
the counter tradition. So that there are forces beings,
01:22:22
what do you think of that are trying to Enlighten people?
01:22:25
Because there are those who are trying to draw them into the
01:22:28
into the light in order to get them true Enlightenment.
01:22:31
But that is constantly in this kind of battle with the false
01:22:35
Enlightenment which seems to offer the same sort of thing but
01:22:38
which is always meant to lead the hounds away from the fox
01:22:43
that is to to offer a an apparent Enlightenment which is
01:22:49
really not An Enlightenment at all, which was designed to keep
01:22:52
you. Keep you put the dark, well, you
01:22:54
promised. So it's, you know, it comes
01:22:56
down. I think to this idea of what's
01:22:58
genuine, it was fair, you just gave a Christian perspective,
01:23:01
you just gave a perfect Christian Perspective, you might
01:23:04
did it by accident, but I probably did it by accident.
01:23:06
But there you go. Of course, those years of taking
01:23:09
the doctor spends. I don't care what they say.
01:23:13
I really like you so. Well, I've enjoyed talking to
01:23:17
you as well. I appreciate it so much And this
01:23:20
is what my longer podcast. But I seriously could talk about
01:23:24
this stuff a long time so I appreciate your time and coming
01:23:28
out. Well, thank you for having me on
01:23:30
and giving up. Hopefully I came up right
01:23:33
against some kind of coherent is responsible but again, it is a
01:23:36
very, very complicated issue yet.
01:23:39
And the other hand it's kind of really simple isn't, right?
01:23:44
What do you want? He said, come follow me.
01:23:49
Me people from all walks of life since I've been becoming alloys.