NEW EPISODE! 'Mormonism 101'
Author of 'Unveiling Grace: The Story of How We Found Our Way Out of the Mormon Church, Lynn Wilder, pulls the veil back on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
For thirty years, Lynn Wilder, once a tenured faculty member at Brigham Young University, and her family lived in, loved, and promoted the Mormon Church. Then their son Micah, serving his Mormon mission in Florida, had a revelation: God knew him personally. God loved him. And the Mormon Church did not offer the true gospel.
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Mormonism teaches the trillions of planets scattered throughout
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the cosmos or ruled by countless Gods, who once were human like
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us They say that long ago on one of these planets to an
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unidentified God. In one of his God, his wives a
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spirit child named Elohim was conceived.
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This Spirit child was later, born to human parents.
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Who gave him a physical body through obedience to Mormon
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teaching and death and Resurrection.
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He proved himself, worthy and was elevated to godhood as his
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father before him. Mormons believe that Elohim is
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their heavenly father and that he lives with his many goddess
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wives on a planet near a mysterious star called corner,
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Here, the god of Mormonism and his wives, through endless,
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Celestial sex produced, billions of spirit children.
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To decide their Destiny. The head of the Mormon, God's
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called a great. Heavenly council meeting both of
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Elohim zealous. Sons were there.
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Lucifer and his brother Jesus. A plan was presented to build
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planet Earth where the spirit children would be sent to take
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on Mortal bodies and learn. Good from Evil, Lucifer's, stood
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and made his bid, or becoming savior of this new world.
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Warning, the glory for himself. He planned to force, everyone to
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become God's opposing, the idea, the Mormon, Jesus suggested,
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giving man, his freedom of choice as on other planets.
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The vote that followed approve, the proposal of the Mormon.
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Jesus would become savior of the planet Earth enraged.
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Lucifer cunningly convinced 1/3 of the spirit destined for Earth
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to fight with him and revoked. Thus, Lucifer became the devil
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and his followers, the demons. Sent to this world, they would
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forever be denied bodies of Flesh and Bone.
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Those who remain neutral in the battled were cursed, to be born
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with black skin. This is the Mormon explanation
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for the Negro race, the spirits that fought most valiantly
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against. Lucifer, would be born into
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Mormon families on planet Earth. These would be the lighter
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skinned people or white and delightsome, as the Book of
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Mormon describe them. Early Mormon, prophets taught
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that Elohim and one of his goddess wives came to her has
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Adam and Eve to start the human race.
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Thousands of years later Elohim in human form.
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Once again, journey to hurt from the Starbase Co-op, this time to
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have sex with the Virgin Mary in order to provide Jesus with a
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physical body. after Jesus Christ, grew to manhood, he took
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at least three wives, Mary, Martha and Mary Magdalene
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through these wives, the Mormon Jesus, for whom Joseph Smith,
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claimed direct descent supposedly, fathered a number of
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children before he was crucified, According to the Book
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of Mormon, after his resurrection, Jesus came to the
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Americas, to preach, to the Indians, who the Mormons believe
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are really Israelites, thus, the Jesus of Mormonism established
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his church, in the Americas as he had in Palestine.
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By the year 421 ad, the dark-skinned Indian Israelites
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known as Lima Night had destroyed, all of the white
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Nephites in a number of great battles.
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The Nephites records were supposedly written on, Golden
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Plates, and buried by Moroni. I'm the last living nephite in
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the Hill Cumorah. 1400 years later, a young treasure Seeker
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named Joseph Smith who was known for his Tall, Tales claim to
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have uncovered these same gold plates near his home in Upstate
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New York. He is now honored by Mormons as
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a prophet because he claimed to have had Visions from the spirit
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world in which he was commanded to organize, the Mormon church
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because all Christian Creed's were an abomination.
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It was Joseph Smith, who originated most of these
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peculiar doctrines which Millions today believed to be
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true. By maintaining a rigid code of
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Financial and moral requirements and through performing secret
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Temple, rituals for themselves and the dead the Latter Day
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Saints hope to prove their worthiness and thus, become
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Gods. The Mormons teach that everyone
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must stand at the final judgment before Joseph Smith, the Mormon,
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Jesus and Elohim. Those Mormons who were sealed in
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the Eternal Marriage, ceremony expect to become polygamous gods
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in the Celestial. Kingdom rule over other planets
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and spawn new families throughout eternity.
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The Mormons, thank God for Joseph Smith who claimed that he
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had done more for us than any other man including Jesus
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Christ. The Mormons believe that he died
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as a martyr shed, his blood for us so that we too, may become
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God's your unique experience and your family's experience.
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I'm throwing throttled with because if I feel when I talk to
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people, as far as Mormonism goes, they may not even know
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it's the Church of Latter Day Saints.
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Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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They see the commercials they see a building.
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Some kind of Christian, but then they've heard some things or the
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histories, a little toddler. Not sure when I was growing up
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Mormonism and the Osmonds were the same thing to me.
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If the 70s, when I was a little, I just do, the, the Osmonds were
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Mormon. I don't know why that always
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came out, maybe from my family, but they're always on TV.
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The dining ratio, then you had all those brothers and the one
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sister singing and dancing and didn't even really know what
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Mormon men The time I do now and I don't point the finger, I have
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a heart really for all the people that believe they're
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doing the right thing that they have are believing the right
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thing. and, Are living like the Latter Day Saints, for the most
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part, nice content, moral lives and close-knit families and, and
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have system set up where they send people out to help join
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them. So they can, you know, be with
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God as well. What makes me super angry Is the
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system. Or who said it up or somebody
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has to at the top has to know it's not true because somebody's
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making a lot of money, frankly and off, like, in that
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particular religion, things that have been proven over and over
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to not really hold water when it comes down to history and talk
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to it. So that's why I really want to
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hear from people like you that are how does it happen that you
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end up in the church with the sincerest of meanings and like
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I've listened to your son's book on tape as well.
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Couldn't be more sincere and following Jesus living out his
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faith with God and at some point comes to a reason a belief that
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this wasn't what I thought it was my entire life.
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Your confusion about all of, this is very typical with
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Christians, because Mormon Behavior appears to be so
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Christian fruit, like, then Christians wanted to leave them
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alone, right? You would you would be surprised
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if I told you who this was. But this is a very well-known
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Christian that I had dinner with one night and he was confused
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about this very thing. In fact, Who somebody
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interviewed me recently and said, Glenn Beck's, a good
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friend of mine. I just don't get right how he's
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not within the body. So I'm talking to this famous
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Christian and he's asking me the same question and he wants to
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know, so, where would you put his lawn?
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Where would you put Hindu fenice?
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Where would you put Mormon is, you know, how close he puts up
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in the center of the table? And And said, so how close are
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these? Here's a salt and pepper shaker,
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tell me where you'd put things I put Mormonism, right on the edge
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of the table, farthest away from Christianity.
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He said that doesn't make any sense to me.
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It looks to me like it would be the closest.
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To me, this is the most horrific thing to present a false Christ
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and a false gospel. And take people whose hearts are
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to have Jesus and to March them off to a place where salvation
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cannot come to them. But have them think that
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salvation comes to them, that way to me.
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That's the greatest deception. Yeah, that's what gets my blood
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boiling is. It's one thing.
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If you tell people, this is what our group believes.
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Would you like to be a part of it?
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With things like Mormonism, it should not be Jesus Christ of
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Latter-day Saints. It should be Joseph Smith of
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Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young of Latter-day Saints and
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they should exclude the New Testament.
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As part of their four books, they should make it three feet.
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And, you know, as well as I do that even recently.
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It looks like they're trying to up Jesus in the ceremonies and
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things, but that's all deceptive, you know, it Not
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being the same cuz in from coming growing up in a
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Protestant background. There's an easy thinking of.
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Well, if you don't understand, it Mormonism is says Jesus.
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And they tell us about God and they use the same words.
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So, you know, people believe it a little differently, maybe
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they're a little off, but we're not really supposed to judge,
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but it is even the word Christian.
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It's just not the same religion and any sense of the word.
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No, in fact, that's that worse deception.
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Again, you're using words right out of the Bible that but not
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one of those religious words between Mormonism and biblical.
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Faith mean, the same thing. Mormon graced is not Christian.
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Grace Heaven is not having temples art upper Temple
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salvation is not salvation eternal life.
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None of it is the same. And so that's part of that great
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deception is using the same words in that Chris Options,
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hearing them. And assuming all they say
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they're saved by grace, right? Here's the definition of Mormon
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Grace, according to the Mormon encyclopedia, it's an enabling
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power that God gives to you so you can live the commandments so
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that you can get yourself there right now.
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That is the not biblical Grace and found out.
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These things are opposites, they're not even compatible.
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That matter. Well, Jesus warns himself in
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Matthew 24, that the false Christ who are they?
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After I often ask Christians who are they, after they don't know
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who are they, after their after the very elect, these are people
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who would try to operate within the body of Christ.
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If they can that they might March people off in the wrong
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direction and Mormonism is just one of the best to sep.
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Active organizations that do this.
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So, but the ranking file people and those wonderful missionaries
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that come to your door. They're not aware that you have
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a different gospel. They are not aware that they're
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presenting something that's not the same as yours.
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They just believe what their leaders from the top, tell them.
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So you're exactly right. You have these wonderful people
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with a heart for Jesus who believe That they have the way
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to salvation, but but they don't write and they need to know what
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you what you know about Jesus. The Jesus they know is a false
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Christ. He's a brother of Satan, that's
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not the Jesus of the Bible that, oh yeah, one of the saddest
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things. And your son Mike is book.
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I'm almost done listening. I buy the books and then I
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listened to him when I'm driving to work, but I'm almost done
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with the audio version. Really, one of the saddest
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things I've heard on it is him saying more often than not how
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poorly he was treated or the missed opportunities by
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Christians while he was sharing the faith and that's really sad.
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Because In your case, like Micah put a name on the a person on a
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bike with the tie and the you know that comes to your door in
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twos. Yeah, these are human beings.
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Like you said that think they do the truth.
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And you're going to let them leave.
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Not at least hearing what? Christians believe is the truth.
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And I view, Mormonism, kind of like, sometimes I drink a lot of
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protein drinks, but I drink one called, you know, Muscle Milk,
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if you seen that one. So you drink Muscle Milk.
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But right on the front cover is a disclaimer at the bottom,
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because by law, they have to say there's no dairy or milk in this
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product. We're with religions.
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So basically you can call anything anything.
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So you can call something Muscle Milk.
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Even if it has zero milk in it, but we have the FDA.
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Who says, we, at least have to tell people that in religion.
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You can say whatever you want. But there's nobody making a
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disclaimer because how you prove Faith one another.
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So you can say this religions of Jesus and it's the truth.
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But there's nobody saying you may or may not believe in
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Christianity. But this Jesus and this
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Christian with Colleen, says, Christian is not the
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Christianity presented or the Jesus presented in the New
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Testament and I think we owe like these young men and ladies
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when they come to our door to in a loving way, take a few minutes
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hear what they have to say. and in a loving way respond and say,
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as they show the Book of Mormon, You know, lay open scriptures
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and say, well, here's how I view and it looks like, that's what
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happened to your son, and he didn't take it well, but it
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planted a seed. So, 30 years I was in Mormonism.
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Can you making kind of the bottom line important Point
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here? 30 years, I had Christian
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friends, I had Christian neighbors, I had Christian
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family and I cannot recall for you one time that a Shh never
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stepped into a conversation with me about what it was
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specifically. I believed about Jesus or how I
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got reconciled to a. Holy God.
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None of those kind of conversations and once Micah
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challenged me to read a book Bible.
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I realize this is not Mormonism. I went face down.
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Gave my life to Jesus. I went through this angry stage.
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Why didn't anybody tell me? I was Marching off to hell and
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nobody cared enough to tell me. Right.
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Why don't you tell me you're so afraid of stepping into a
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conversation that might put a rift in our relationship.
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Right there. You were men who tell me these
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things are important. Yeah.
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So I suppose what God does is raises up.
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People like us who come from those false places that we might
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have these testimonies to tell these stories both to warn
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Christians, not to go there. But also to help Mormons come to
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faith in Christ. And we've seen hundreds May
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incur a lots of salvations over the years.
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God is on the move was Mormons, I have no doubt.
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So you know, people's kind of most everybody's aware that it
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is long. People are having dreams and
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come you Jesus. And he appears to be pulling a
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remnant of the Muslims. They I believe the same thing is
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going on. In Mormonism, lots of Mormons
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are leaving, many of violent atheism, and agnosticism.
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Some up them, come back around to Jesus, but some of them have
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a real Heart for Jesus. And they want to know this true
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Jesus. And so like probably never
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before in Mormonism, A Remnant is coming to Christ and we need
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Norby of Christians to open their mouths and have those
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conversations rather than saying, oh, they're such nice
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people and just going To leave them alone, right?
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I want to hear how you're helping pull people out of
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Mormonism. I didn't want.
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I express you before that, I didn't want to spend the time
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with you going through all the doctrines and the history as you
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would be an expert to tell me because not everybody has been
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through what you've been through.
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And I want to hear that or do what you're doing.
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So I am going to have a different episode that people,
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listen to first and get that groundwork, but if you could for
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those who haven't heard that in a short summary for your average
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person, who doesn't know, Or they're even Mormon right now
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and good people and they have great families.
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And they enjoy their church and their community and maybe
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they've already turned it off by now because they're hearing us
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say it's not Christian and and I'd be really rude and
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offensive, I can imagine. Yes.
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So so I don't want to move on before.
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Could you just give a minute or two or something a brief summary
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that easily states to these people?
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What we're talking about? But it's not the Jesus
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represented in the New Testament you did with Grace but maybe
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Peugeot God actually is when you talk about Heavenly Father and
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Jesus in his divinity, birth Divine birth or not and all this
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kind of thing I would say to basics of Christianity are who's
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God Who is man and how does an evil, man?
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Get reconciled to a holy God? You know, how do you get saved?
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Those are the basics of say. So Mormonism believes in three
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separate gods. They deny the Trinity, they say
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there are probably millions of gods because a righteous man cuz
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can earn his way to God. So in their theology, Ology
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Heavenly Father. He is on this plane of Eternal
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progression. He earned his godhood first,
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Jesus. Then earned his godhood.
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Heavenly Father. The Holy Ghost became a Gods.
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You have three separate gods. They work.
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They weren't always God. They are created beings.
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The Bible says, we don't worship the created, we only worship the
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Creator. The Bible's very clear.
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We have this trying God, that's Each hibernal always existed in
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relationship up three always will and they're co-equal right
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ones. Not more important.
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The other, the three of them have different roles, but but
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they work together, and that is not the god of Mormonism
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Mormonism as a whole different system.
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So you don't have the same God, but you also don't have the same
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way too. Be reconciled to God in
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Mormonism. Your salvation is pretty much
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all Look to You. The Book of Mormon says, you are
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saved by grace after all, you can do.
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So like in Islam, you do all you can do.
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And then at the end of life, if it's been enough, God's grace
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might kick in and save you in Mormonism.
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There are three separate Heavens 1 / Heavenly Father, the lower
00:21:51
one for Jesus, a lower one. Holy Ghost and according to your
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works on the earth you either get to lived with one horrible
00:22:00
the other and they'll tell you that even Hitler is in the
00:22:03
lowest Kingdom. The only people that go to hell
00:22:06
and warm, it is more apostates from the Mormon Church,
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particularly those of us who had been to the temple and deny the
00:22:13
feeling. Yeah.
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And I think that's one. Major thing to point out is all
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the denominations Protestant, even Catholicism.
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That would say well, These are just different, We Shouldn't
00:22:26
Judge them. They're Christian that you know,
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Mormons don't give anyone else that Latitude, right?
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You have to be a Mormon as accepted by the Mormon church to
00:22:38
enter into any kind of celestial heaven.
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And when you mentioned, Hitler fact confuse people that would
00:22:45
be because the baptisms of the Dead.
00:22:49
Probably yes. So pure Mormonism is basically
00:22:53
Universal salvation. Everybody gets to one of the
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three happens. The only people are really good
00:22:59
to go to the top heaven with heavenly father and get eternal
00:23:02
life or exaltation and Mormonism are Mormons that are good enough
00:23:08
to earn a temple recommend and then go to the temple and then
00:23:13
to good works till the end of their lives through the only
00:23:15
people that get to live with God, the father.
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So, yes, it's a very workspace system but but in my Brain is a
00:23:24
Mormon, no one ever talked to me about work spaced.
00:23:27
I wouldn't have put the logic together, but that Christian
00:23:31
would have to walk a Mormon through why you having to do XY
00:23:36
and z in order for eternal life to come to you how that's Works.
00:23:40
Based the goal. Is it not of most Mormons that
00:23:46
you reach a godhood and like that?
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God, Boo. If I'm correct.
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Was supposedly Adam. Who earned his way to to a god.
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That. Yeah, the in so it started with
00:23:59
heavenly father and heavenly mother, in the pre-existence
00:24:03
heavenly father and heavily mother have bodies of Flesh and
00:24:06
Bone. They have sex that their
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children are only spiritual doing and I never made any sense
00:24:13
to me and Mormonism, but that's the way it is.
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Then those children earned the right to come to Earth be more
00:24:21
In a family on the earth that they might gain a body and then
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begin their Eternal progression toward godhood.
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Although, I never believed a woman could become a gaunt and
00:24:33
the tumble it, it told me and Mormon temple that I could be a
00:24:36
queen and a priestess to my husband.
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So, in the next life, if he were righteous enough, yes, he would
00:24:43
earn his own world don't say Planet.
00:24:46
They always say, well, we don't believe that, right?
00:24:50
Well, Their scriptures say world.
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So that's a it's almost a trick from there.
00:24:58
And right, they do believe that you can be married forever and
00:25:03
have your own world, but they also believe that in order to
00:25:06
people about world, with these little Spirit children, that
00:25:09
need to come to the bodies to be born on that Earth, that that
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the husband is going to have to have multiple righteous wives.
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So basically the the job, Of a woman.
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And the next life is to continue to have children, children
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children, children, children, and people a world.
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Enjoy that. I loved being a mom and that
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would be a little much. So this may be an obvious answer
00:25:38
to the question, but if you were presented with, that's just to
00:25:42
me like a skim of what their doctor isn't beliefs.
00:25:45
Are would you then have continued conversations with the
00:25:50
two young men at your door and end up living a life and warm?
00:25:53
It is. Mmm.
00:25:55
As a, who knows, right? As opposed to using biblical
00:25:59
terms and just saying things, they feel are the norm in
00:26:03
culture even to the Christian years, that's what makes me
00:26:07
angry. Yes.
00:26:09
And they actually Target nominal Christians, I don't know that.
00:26:13
They would know that term but it's people have heard of Jesus
00:26:17
and know there's a Bible, right? This was my husband and myself
00:26:20
and Mormon missionary soft on our door at age 24.
00:26:25
Oh yeah, we've heard a prophet. So yeah, I'm I grew up Baptist.
00:26:28
I grew up Presbyterian. We all went to church but we we
00:26:32
didn't read our Bible and I couldn't have told you how you
00:26:35
got saved, right? But I'd heard words like
00:26:37
prophets and Jesus than cross and salvation.
00:26:42
And those kind of things Mormonism tomorrow and
00:26:46
Visionaries told us, they had the fullness of the truth.
00:26:49
The Bible was just part of the truth and that we needed to add
00:26:53
to that. Well, if you Know anything about
00:26:56
false christs or anything? The Paul warned about over and
00:26:59
over gold over and in the New Testament thing, you're in the
00:27:04
same situation as we are. So 83% of people that join
00:27:08
Mormonism called out of nominal Christianity.
00:27:11
So it's people that were kind of raised cultural perception, but
00:27:15
they, they don't know what the Bible says.
00:27:17
When I think about what this isn't funny.
00:27:19
But if, if anything was funny, this would be it.
00:27:21
Right? Every time I think about
00:27:22
Mormonism, I think. About the scripture that says
00:27:26
even if an angel comes to you and preaches, a different
00:27:30
gospel, let him be eternally, damned or something to that
00:27:33
effect. Then Mormonism is literally
00:27:36
based on a story of an angel, coming and preaching, a
00:27:41
different gospel, you know, and that shouldn't fool one single
00:27:47
Christian. But like he say, they don't know
00:27:50
the Bible and that's on us. Did not know the Bible.
00:27:54
So, when Micah got saved on his Mormon, Mission Bay despairs to
00:28:00
read the Bible. I opened it to the Book of John
00:28:03
and the first first, verse I ran sat in the beginning was the
00:28:07
word. I'm like, I think that's Jesus
00:28:10
and the Word was with God and the Word was God and I went
00:28:14
Jesus wasn't God from the beginning is God.
00:28:18
And right. I mean all three.
00:28:21
Now the body Cool, it contradicts Mormon scripture,
00:28:25
but when I was blind, and I was more about it.
00:28:28
And before regeneration came to me, I didn't see these conflicts
00:28:33
until God was ready. Ready to call me?
00:28:37
Right. It says in John 6:44.
00:28:39
I remember reading Jesus, saying, no one comes to me,
00:28:43
unless the father who sent me draws him, I remember thinking,
00:28:48
I think I'm being drawn. This is like, you know, we're
00:28:51
just Being sucked in there is a time when those who are his and
00:29:00
recognize his voice will be called, and it is in his perfect
00:29:05
time and his perfect way. But also for his purposes that
00:29:10
according to 1st Timothy 1, 8 and 9 Were there before the ages
00:29:19
began. I was blown away to think that
00:29:23
he called me to a holy calling. Not because of my works.
00:29:28
But because of his own purpose and Grace and that all of this
00:29:33
was known before the Aegis began, he knew every day of my
00:29:37
life before it began, so the idea Is the Jesus Regal, you
00:29:46
have to find the right Jesus and you have to know the right way
00:29:50
to Salvation when you give your life and make him your master
00:29:55
the Holy Spirit, enters you everything changes and your
00:30:00
purpose begins and that was very real for me.
00:30:06
That's the that's why I started doing this podcast.
00:30:08
I wanted to people talk about the reality, not the religion,
00:30:11
but the reality, I was calling a Divine encounters before at
00:30:15
least a subtitle because Just that born-again experience
00:30:19
having the spirit and the your life, everyone's testimony to
00:30:24
that moment is very similar in that my eyes were opened I could
00:30:28
see light and dark. I could see it proof and
00:30:30
falsehood the birds were chirping.
00:30:33
They didn't know. The grass was so green.
00:30:37
He felt more at rest, you know, like there's a All Is Well, with
00:30:43
My Soul song, you know, kind of resonate with you, whether you
00:30:46
know, this arm out and we're before you're just working.
00:30:50
Religions all about working in the old and you're always
00:30:53
working to obtain something that unobtainable.
00:30:56
There's that Born Again experience where the holy spirit
00:31:00
makes you a new creation and phrase.
00:31:04
Mormonism. There seems to be I would call
00:31:08
it a counterfeit to that and that they are bold enough to say
00:31:13
when they're trying to convert you and they get you far enough.
00:31:16
And they've told you that, what they want you to know about the
00:31:18
religion To ask God if this is true.
00:31:24
And if it is, you'll have some kind of burning in your foot.
00:31:28
Oh yeah. And I believe, if I recall from
00:31:31
your book maybe even like, I could be wrong about that, that
00:31:35
you would say. Yes, you had that experience.
00:31:38
Is that correct? And if so, what are they getting
00:31:40
at? Or is it a mental?
00:31:43
You just come to a peace that this seems true or do you kind
00:31:46
of have a supernatural experience?
00:31:50
It If so how do you reflect on that?
00:31:52
I'm sure it's different for other people, but when I was
00:31:56
LDS, I expected those kind of wacky, spiritual experiences.
00:32:01
I did not know that Satan could counterfeit them, I had no idea.
00:32:06
No one told me that. So here's an example, when I was
00:32:11
getting my patriarchal blessing and Mormonism, which is kind of
00:32:14
like telling your future. This patriotic, a Mormon
00:32:18
patriarch lays his hands on your And tells you what your future
00:32:21
will be and then warns you at the end if you don't want
00:32:24
righteously won't come to the house.
00:32:26
Well, you know, it's see it's all on you but when that
00:32:30
patriarch laid his hands on my head I felt very real
00:32:35
electricity go from the top of my head to the tip of my toes
00:32:41
and I knew Mormonism was true because I had this profound
00:32:47
feeling experience, right? That connected.
00:32:50
Me to Mormonism. Lots of Mormons have these kind
00:32:53
of experiences and then when they get to rethink all of this,
00:32:57
that's one of the things they really have to struggle with.
00:33:00
I actually went back through all those kind of spiritual
00:33:04
experiences and Mormonism and and said, okay this one might
00:33:08
have been the prime, the real God, this wonderfully, wasn't
00:33:11
this one. You know, I had to kind of
00:33:14
catalog, those kind of things. Here's how I see it now, it's
00:33:18
not the Christian faith. Doesn't have those profound
00:33:22
spiritual experiences because you do and they're very real.
00:33:27
But in Christian faith, you have both logic reason, science and
00:33:36
emotion. So you have both evidence and
00:33:40
emotion and the emotion is supposed to be checked with the
00:33:46
word, all of that emotionalism can come from Laettner can come
00:33:51
from God. If it lines up with the Bible,
00:33:55
it's probably God. If it doesn't line up you better
00:33:58
run and I wasn't familiar with that.
00:34:02
And to me that's a bigger Faith, right?
00:34:05
God has 30 archaeological digs for the old testamental.
00:34:09
All the Book of Mormon doesn't have one right.
00:34:12
There are no Regional manuscripts in Mormonism.
00:34:14
There was no prophecy evidence. In fact, there are 11 prophecies
00:34:18
that Joseph Smith made that Hearst Still in their scriptures
00:34:22
that didn't come through true. And never will because those
00:34:26
people are dead. So but as a Mormon I didn't know
00:34:31
what the Bible Lauper. No Christian never told me.
00:34:35
Yeah. How awesome the Bible has.
00:34:37
That's huge for Mormons right? They don't trust the Bible.
00:34:41
Here's how they see it. You're a Christian and all you
00:34:45
have is the Bible in your Bibles corrupt and you can't really
00:34:48
tell. When it's true.
00:34:51
And when it is true, of course they don't tell you that on the
00:34:54
doorstep. But you are not lighter and more
00:34:57
of an ism. Then they add the Book of Mormon
00:34:59
to it, which is perfect, and the Doctrine and Covenants, which is
00:35:02
perfect, and the pearl of great price, which is perfect because
00:35:05
they came directly from Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith and the
00:35:10
other Mormon prophets. So, can you see how Christians
00:35:15
are kind of lessers? They just have a little of the
00:35:18
truth and you And the Bible's corrupt but Mormons have the
00:35:23
fullness of the truth they call in it.
00:35:25
So they don't see you though. As opposites, you are opposites,
00:35:30
you are but they see you as just people that need more added to.
00:35:36
That's that's what they teach their Mormon missionaries, to
00:35:39
teach the Christian people. And a lot of people are open to
00:35:42
that, right? That one or more spirituality.
00:35:46
Well, that's the thing, spirituality is accepted, if not
00:35:49
even embraced. By culture and there are
00:35:52
experiences and well then it must be real and true and it's
00:35:56
interesting and it's intriguing. But it scares the Protestant
00:36:00
churches away so much because there is a demonic reality that
00:36:03
they don't allow the Holy Spirit reality to move very well in
00:36:07
most places, they stifle that in my opinion but I think think
00:36:12
that's changing. Well and then fall Sky.
00:36:16
Certainly have the Demonic fruit, right?
00:36:18
If they are Antichrist. There really is this this Unseen
00:36:24
World and there really is a battle going on and I can tell
00:36:28
you some some really interesting experiences I've had trying to
00:36:32
help people out of Mormonism, where where they have some of
00:36:37
these kind of stronghold experiences where they can't
00:36:40
seem to get extricated. Actually, two years ago, I had
00:36:45
one of the most important and interesting phone calls from a
00:36:48
Christian Psychologist, who spent his entire life helping
00:36:52
people out of Cults like Mormonism?
00:36:56
I apologize Mormons. If that would, if that world,
00:37:00
they if that word is offensive. But this is this was what he
00:37:04
said to me. He wanted to know from me, why
00:37:07
it's so hard to extricate Mormons.
00:37:10
He said, I've worked with Mormon, step 5, Years, ten
00:37:14
years, down the road. Still have these strongholds
00:37:16
things that they believe from Mormonism.
00:37:19
They can't seem to let go. And he said of all the different
00:37:23
groups that I work with. This one seems to be tough.
00:37:28
I mean, people are really connected to it.
00:37:30
Yeah, you mentioned Colts. It could be a very offensive
00:37:34
word. I mean it's defined so many
00:37:37
ways, if you define it as a belief system, so strong, you
00:37:41
would kill for or allowed yourself to To be killed for
00:37:44
then Christianity's are called. So yeah.
00:37:48
So I take it down 20 and Mormonism is seems odd to call
00:37:53
it a call to because it's so large and influential where you
00:37:58
think of call, it has maybe F DL s, wheres the fundamentals that
00:38:03
are on the outskirts in, you're getting open polygamy and
00:38:08
there's child abuse and there's different things going on.
00:38:10
Well, that's cultish on the outskirts Mormon.
00:38:13
But not Mormonism itself. But I judge it by this is, once
00:38:17
again, helps Christians to know their scripture is and I had
00:38:21
this issue when Romney was running for president, is what's
00:38:26
he going to vote for? Probably principles?
00:38:28
I believe in, you know, family and some conservative issues.
00:38:33
What do you do? Because on the, do I care so
00:38:36
much about what their faith is? I voted for people that weren't
00:38:38
Christian. It's not about that.
00:38:40
You know, I vote for my how are they going to vote?
00:38:43
I had a real struggle. I'm glad I didn't have to make
00:38:45
the decision because Scripture says that.
00:38:50
Any teaching that is brought that doesn't accept is Jesus, Is
00:38:54
God, In the Flesh, basically is a doctrine of demons a
00:39:00
doctorate. That's a religious belief.
00:39:02
I Define that as a cult and Mormonism takes man as God In
00:39:09
the Flesh. Not God, is coming as Man In the
00:39:12
Flesh. It, you know, it's the opposite
00:39:14
so that to me defines it as demonic, activity, demonically,
00:39:18
written in, even with Joseph Smith, not to dig into the
00:39:21
history of, it started with cultic ways of doing things and
00:39:26
Seeker stones and it's from its roots.
00:39:29
His had a Mystic Groundwork to it, a framework to it.
00:39:37
Almost like Greek mythology. Now, for sure.
00:39:42
So let's hear some of your stories.
00:39:43
How do you without offending people?
00:39:47
Like we probably just did using words like called you know or be
00:39:51
saying it's a doctor to Demons. But how do you approach people
00:39:54
that? Like I said you know I you know
00:39:56
more than me but I know some people that are great.
00:40:01
Love to hang out with and have a coffee.
00:40:03
The nice families couldn't be nicer.
00:40:05
People in society, moral upstanding citizens, but then
00:40:12
you really care about If they think this is truth.
00:40:19
How would how does your ministry approach it or what do you do?
00:40:25
I don't feel like God has necessarily sent our ministry to
00:40:30
what we call tbms true believing Mormons, who are very dug into
00:40:34
their faith. At least my husband and I work,
00:40:39
mostly mostly with people who are already questioning their
00:40:43
Mormon faith and they there, they want to explore biblical
00:40:48
Christianity as an option. So, that's who we hear from, and
00:40:52
that's who comes to us. And so these are people with a
00:40:56
heart for Jesus but they've decided that they do.
00:40:59
Like the fact that Joseph Smith married a 14 year old and 11 of
00:41:03
the women. He married, we're already
00:41:06
married when he married on those kind of things when they find
00:41:09
out, those kind of things are kind of done with Mormonism, but
00:41:12
they still have a heart for Jesus and many Mormons who find
00:41:18
out them stings, go to hardcore atheism, they become very angry.
00:41:22
They won shit. The church.
00:41:24
With lawsuits, I only see healing happened when they come
00:41:30
to know Jesus they come to know for understand forgiveness and
00:41:35
mercy and Grace and realize that their life has a purpose, he
00:41:41
know. And that Jesus is real it one of
00:41:46
the hardest things for the people that we work with is to
00:41:51
convince them that God loves them.
00:41:55
Right. That God the father would call
00:41:58
them that Jesus would have a purpose for their life that
00:42:02
someone would love them that much.
00:42:04
It's really hard for Mormons to Tech for many Mormons that I
00:42:08
work with to take that end as far as Mormons that are dug in
00:42:12
that our friends or that our colleagues that you work with.
00:42:16
We recommend a relationship having people for dinner, but
00:42:22
the best thing is to get more insight into the Firewall, if
00:42:26
you have a Bible study in your home and you have more of a
00:42:29
neighbor's, why not say to them, you know, we have this in
00:42:33
common, let's it study the Bible.
00:42:36
You don't have to hit people over the head with the
00:42:40
differences. If you can get them into the
00:42:43
word, the Holy Ghost. There's this great power in the
00:42:47
word, the Holy Spirit Works through the word and reading it
00:42:51
and then realizing it that it's all Opposite Mormonism drives
00:42:57
you to a point of decision. Either, this is true or this is
00:43:02
true or neither of. These are true, right?
00:43:04
But they're not the same and it's wonderful.
00:43:07
They can discover that on their own by being in the word when I
00:43:12
was in my teenage and late teenage years.
00:43:15
If I were coming home from school and I saw him in my
00:43:17
neighborhood, I would hunt them down in case.
00:43:20
I miss them at my door. I'm so sorry if nobody answered
00:43:23
and I'd want to talk to them, but I I probably wasn't the
00:43:25
best, I was eager, but I was probably ready to point out
00:43:29
differences or I was ready to is opposed to just starting to
00:43:34
build a rapport and some respect for what they're doing.
00:43:38
And not just come across as you're wrong.
00:43:41
And here's, you know, I had right motives but I would handle
00:43:44
myself differently. Yeah.
00:43:46
And here's why that doesn't work.
00:43:47
The Book of Mormon says, contention is of the devil.
00:43:51
So if you present to them really hardcore, Something that's
00:43:55
opposite of what they believe their brain just goes devil
00:43:58
devil devil, shut it off. And if you do too much of that
00:44:02
kind of confrontational stuff, you'll drive them right to their
00:44:07
testimony. I know the church is true.
00:44:09
I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, but then, you know,
00:44:12
you've shut the door to any kind of back-and-forth conversation.
00:44:18
Sonal, we say you treat these people with respect and and
00:44:23
totally Only if you have the missionaries in, let them teach
00:44:27
you and then use question strategic questions and and what
00:44:33
we like to do is present a conundrum to them.
00:44:37
Well, that's you tell me that after the last of the Twelve
00:44:41
Apostles died, the church that Jesus set up went into a great
00:44:46
apostasy and it didn't come back until Joseph Smith, brought it
00:44:50
back and well, that confuses me because of something.
00:44:53
I think I read in the Jesus. So I'll take him to on this
00:44:58
rock, I will build my church and the Gates of Hell will not
00:45:01
Prevail against it. And then all I have to do is
00:45:04
say, what do you think Jesus meant?
00:45:07
When he said that is that not translated correctly?
00:45:11
Was he not aware that his church was going to fail?
00:45:13
I mean, all I do is lay the questions out there and let the
00:45:17
Holy Spirit, stir those questions in there and hope that
00:45:21
they'll go back to their missionary apartment opened, the
00:45:24
Bible. Ago.
00:45:24
Why would Jesus say something office?
00:45:26
It was a Mormon prophet, taught me my feet.
00:45:29
That's the, that's my point in doing it is present scripture.
00:45:34
That's the exact opposite and then treat them with respect.
00:45:39
Let them be the masters of their own faith and ask them, how, how
00:45:43
have you reconcile the fact that Jesus said this, but the Mormon
00:45:48
Church teaches this again. No one has to answer me.
00:45:53
I'm just laying that thought in your head, it's a seed.
00:45:57
Planted. Yeah.
00:46:00
And back to your son, Mike has a book passport to Heaven.
00:46:04
Those are the things that really struck out down to me was When
00:46:09
he was presenting his book by the people who are the most
00:46:11
influential to him. Were the ones, it seemed that
00:46:16
listened and gave him the respect.
00:46:18
Yeah, that's him. Elder Wilder.
00:46:23
And what's your message and sat and listened to every word and
00:46:27
then as much as he didn't want to, Michael felt he owed.
00:46:31
Respect back to listen, to what they rebuttal was is offended as
00:46:36
he was about it, and felt it was wrong, it forced Micah to hear
00:46:40
it, where he probably would not have heard it.
00:46:43
If they didn't give him the respect to, at least, listen to
00:46:46
what he had to say. Hey, you see the sounds so
00:46:48
simple, but just yeah, but the respect of just listening with
00:46:52
somebody. The sharing that respect back
00:46:57
and forth. Just seems like a simple thing
00:46:59
to do, but so powerful and this, there's a lot to respect about
00:47:04
Mormons, right? Their disease.
00:47:07
Ellis about their faith enough to talk about their faith.
00:47:11
How many Christians do that, right?
00:47:13
They, they give up two years of their luck.
00:47:15
Young lines to knock doors and do a Mormon Mission.
00:47:21
They try to stay morally, clean. They live a health code.
00:47:26
They raise great kids, you know, that are good friends of your
00:47:31
kids, although you have to be careful with that too because
00:47:34
sometimes your kids are drawn as yeah.
00:47:37
They get through the day without coffee.
00:47:39
That's amazing in itself, that's the ideas.
00:47:43
Yes, maybe. No.
00:47:45
But they will Co / offers some power drink.
00:47:49
We try not to do the debating or the hard-hitting in that spot it
00:47:55
Christian. All Jetix is interesting, right?
00:47:58
We get slotted into Christian apologetics but but we're not
00:48:03
comfortable in that arguing space.
00:48:05
That's not bringing anybody to Jesus.
00:48:07
All I care about is that Mormons.
00:48:09
Might have the experience that I had and getting to know.
00:48:12
Jesus waking up one day and all the colors are different.
00:48:16
Like you said, life is changed, right?
00:48:20
That's what we're after is 2 and our ministry is In the we don't
00:48:27
address history like we don't do the things that hit against
00:48:31
Mormonism that would cause you to leave Mormonism.
00:48:34
I just want to present Jesus. Have you come to know who he is?
00:48:38
Give your life to him and then I promise you, we'll leave the
00:48:43
Mormon church because once the holy spirit sets up residence in
00:48:47
you, then the conundrums are very clear when you read the
00:48:52
word. I also think you know with
00:48:56
Friends. It's wonderful for Christians to
00:49:00
pray with Mormons, and for Mormons and ask that.
00:49:04
If I can pray for you about something two reasons.
00:49:08
First Mormons, don't talk to each other, typically about
00:49:13
things that they're struggling, because somebody might go into
00:49:16
your Bishop rat on you, you might lose your temple recommend
00:49:20
there in your highest salvation is in question, right?
00:49:25
So you You hide all of that stuff.
00:49:27
If a Christian can be a safe place to come, and you can
00:49:31
assure them that they can say anything to you.
00:49:34
They can confess any sin, it's a safe place.
00:49:37
You are not going to go anywhere with it.
00:49:39
That's really helpful. And the other thing is the way
00:49:43
that you pray morons will say to a Christian.
00:49:46
Wow, sounds like you actually know him.
00:49:50
Sounds like you're talking to a brother.
00:49:52
Whereas Mormons prayer is very stilted.
00:49:57
And so, I think those things are helpful.
00:49:59
The other thing I tell Christians ears.
00:50:03
When's the last time you were brought to tears telling a story
00:50:07
about Jesus. Mormons are hyper emotionalism.
00:50:13
They do this hyper emotionalism thing right and their
00:50:16
testimonies make them cry. Well ours should make them us
00:50:22
cry, we have true. Even we as Christians in this
00:50:25
day and age, tend not to sprinkle our conversation.
00:50:30
I think with ideas about Jesus and why not?
00:50:34
Why don't we talk about it, right?
00:50:36
Why don't we tell people what it was like.
00:50:39
Before I knew him him. What it's like?
00:50:41
Now, what a difference has been? Yeah, so I'll share a success or
00:50:46
a story or two. Will this one way carbonado?
00:50:50
This is one of my favorite ones. Well, lady called me up, one day
00:50:54
from Utah and I'm in Florida. This is her story.
00:50:59
She said, I'm very strong, Mormon my husband's very strong
00:51:03
Mormon, our daughter, had a Christian friend in high school
00:51:08
and started investigating biblical Faith.
00:51:10
Well, when our daughter hit 18, she begged us to allow her to be
00:51:14
baptized as a Christian. We finally gave in and allowed
00:51:19
her to do that. She was 18 at 19.
00:51:23
This girl was in college didn't feel well and what had cancer at
00:51:30
age 20 the daughter died. When the daughter died, the
00:51:35
Mormon mother Quentin to the dorm room to clean out the
00:51:38
daughters things. She found my book among the
00:51:43
daughters things, unfailing Grace and and the daughter had
00:51:46
written in the margins. The Marked scripture done all of
00:51:50
this stunt. So the mom realized this this
00:51:54
this stupid lady is responsible for my daughter leaving
00:51:58
Mormonism. I hate this league.
00:52:01
So she said I stirred about and I didn't even remember ever
00:52:05
meeting the girl. But I had signed her books
00:52:08
though. Apparently, she came to hear a
00:52:09
speak once. So, the mom was so angry with
00:52:15
me. She trashed the daughters book.
00:52:19
Six months after the death. She calls me up and says, I've
00:52:22
been wondering why it is. My daughter would turn her back
00:52:26
on everything. She had been brought up in and
00:52:29
consider biblical faith. And she said, I decided in order
00:52:34
to know the answer to that, I might have to read you books.
00:52:37
So, she calls me says, will you send a book I said, oh, I'll do
00:52:43
one better. I'll be in Utah, 12 days.
00:52:46
We are going to speak. Why don't you come?
00:52:48
Here is the mother shows up on a Friday night actually came and
00:52:54
told us who she was often. They don't do that right there
00:52:58
in the early stages in hiding. Still, she came the next day to
00:53:03
a whole day of conferences. She told me later that she left
00:53:10
that conference knowing more of it isn't wasn't true.
00:53:13
She needed to give her life to the Jesus of the Bible, like her
00:53:17
daughter. Had done.
00:53:17
She went to her daughter's grave And went face down and gave her
00:53:24
life to Jesus. Powerful.
00:53:29
Powerful powerful. There are so many of those kind
00:53:33
of stories woman called me up from Southern California.
00:53:36
One day. She said, I've been warming all
00:53:39
my life, I married this Christian guy.
00:53:41
He kept trying to tell me about Grace, I kept letting it in and
00:53:45
wanted out. The other eye was Mormon.
00:53:47
I was going to be more than the rest of my life.
00:53:49
There was nothing he could tell me.
00:53:51
It was going to change my mind. She said, after a few years of
00:53:54
marriage, I kind of got bore and I had an affair.
00:53:59
I realized afterwards, man. I'm married to the best guy on
00:54:02
Earth. This was really stupid, so I'm
00:54:05
going to go to him and tell him and apologize.
00:54:08
And she said, I fell at his feet weeping and I said, I'm so
00:54:13
sorry. Will you ever forgive me?
00:54:17
And he said, this is what I've been trying to tell you all
00:54:22
these years, this is Grace, I forgive you, Jesus, forgave you,
00:54:29
you don't deserve it, I don't deserve it.
00:54:32
This is what Grace is, right? And she said, for the first time
00:54:36
in my life, I got it and then she became an unfired Christian,
00:54:40
right? So many stories, guy called me
00:54:44
up. Maybe four years ago, their ults
00:54:48
from Utah. I don't know what's wrong with
00:54:51
me. I can't put the Bible down.
00:54:52
My wife says, I've gone crazy and my Mormon, Bishop says, I
00:54:55
need to move out of the house, and my wife needs to divorce me.
00:55:00
Something has made me crazy. I can't put here.
00:55:03
That's the one thing that I think when regeneration is
00:55:06
happened, people get hungry for the word.
00:55:10
Wykes are hungry to know who Jesus is and what it is.
00:55:14
Is there supposed to do there with their lives as a follower
00:55:18
of Jesus? And I remember thinking in my
00:55:21
brain all my gosh I think this man's got Sate, gotten saved
00:55:25
especially supernaturally how God does it and he doesn't even
00:55:30
know what's happened to him, right?
00:55:32
And then walking him through trying to keep his marriage
00:55:35
together and finding a church and all of that.
00:55:40
Some of our Mormons, in transition, struggle for a long,
00:55:44
Long time, some of them lose their spouses.
00:55:48
Some of them don't have access to kids or grandkids after
00:55:52
salvation comes to their household.
00:55:56
Well, I definitely appreciate you and your family and I'm
00:56:00
looking forward to talking to Michael we don't have it on the
00:56:03
calendar yet but it'll be soon a and are you wearing a hat with a
00:56:07
visor? I love that.
00:56:09
I did the song Perfect Just For You know since there's no.
00:56:14
I know an outlaw. I know I should require that.
00:56:17
I like it. Well, I love your Outlaw picture
00:56:20
and I'm going to send you our favorite Outlaw picture.
00:56:24
So that you can add to your collection.
00:56:28
Yeah, I love that photo as well. It says everything, I've said
00:56:31
that so many times. I've used it on social media at
00:56:34
times but it's amazing how a picture can be a thousand words
00:56:38
because I've tried to explain even to my own family sometimes.
00:56:41
What do you mean by Outlaws? I just send that picture and
00:56:44
more people can't see it right now, but it's a bunch of its
00:56:49
hundreds of women in the Arab world wearing the what do you
00:56:53
called? Hey, Joe Yes.
00:56:56
Yeah. There's one woman with it back
00:56:58
so you see her beautiful face and she's walking in the
00:57:01
complete opposite direction. Reading a book, totally Counter
00:57:06
Culture and and we become a Christian.
00:57:10
I think that you you just become counterculture to the whole the
00:57:15
way Society goes, you know, and in your cases and others, I've
00:57:19
talked to it's so extreme. I have nothing but admiration
00:57:22
because fortunately Your whole family went that way but, you
00:57:27
know, Micah could have been out on his own and was willing to is
00:57:30
heartbreaking. That would be but God because he
00:57:34
had a purpose at all this right? One month.
00:57:37
Before my book came out, one of the top leaders of the Mormon
00:57:41
church was questioning his faith and his questioning came out on
00:57:45
the front page of the New York Times so Godlike.
00:57:50
Okay, now everybody knows there's an important Morgan
00:57:53
questioning The month later. This book comes out within two
00:57:57
days, the entire first printing, sold out on Amazon white,
00:58:01
because there were that many Mormons out there questioning
00:58:05
their faith and now many Christians that wanted to
00:58:07
witness to Mormons. So, unveiling Grace has been
00:58:10
out, almost 10 years now and it has sold more every year than
00:58:16
the year before. But God, like I said, it's like
00:58:19
a Grassroots calling the remnant home kind Of the movement at the
00:58:27
very end of my book. This is the scripture that I end
00:58:32
the book with 1st Timothy 15, here is a trustworthy saying
00:58:38
that deserves full acceptance Christ.
00:58:41
Jesus came into the world to save Sinners of whom.
00:58:45
I am the worst for that very reason I was shown mercy so that
00:58:51
in me the worst of sinners Christ.
00:58:53
Jesus, my Might display his immense patience, as an example
00:58:58
for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
00:59:03
Now to the king, Eternal Immortal invisible, the only God
00:59:09
be honor and Glory forever and ever.
00:59:13
Amen. Amen.
00:59:15
Will leave on that note. Thank you.
00:59:17
And thank you. Great to me to can