In this episode, we delve into one of the most notorious chapters in American criminal history – the Son of Sam case. David Berkowitz, the infamous serial killer, terrorized New York City in the 1970s. His capture in August 1977 marked the end of his reign of terror, leading to his imprisonment and conviction for multiple murders. The Son of Sam case still sends chills down our spines, but it also raises thought-provoking questions about redemption, evil, and the human psyche.
Episode guest is Dr. Michael Capperelli, author of the recently released book 'Monster Mirror,' written after spending 100 hours in prison interviews with David Berkowitz.Dr. Caparelli's unique background as a pastor for 16 years and his Ph.D. in Advanced Studies of Human Behavior make him uniquely qualified to understand both the spiritual and psychological aspects of human behavior.
'Monster in the Mirror' now available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble.
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Gathered among the outlaws, he said.
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Come follow me people from all walks of life sense and then
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becoming outlaws. Welcome to Becoming Outlaws
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podcast, which engages celebrities, scholars and
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diverse voices in candid conversations about following
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Jesus, defying societal norms, and exploring profound questions
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of faith. The Son of Sam, whose real name
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is David Berkowitz, as a notorious American serial killer
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who terrorized New York City during the summer of 1977.
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Berkowitz claimed to have been commanded by a demon who
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communicated with him through his neighbor's dog, and he went
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on a shooting spree targeting young couples parked in cars.
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His killing spree resulted in the deaths of 6 people and the
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wounding of several others. Berkowitz capture in August of
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77 brought an end to this reign of terror and he was
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subsequently convicted of multiple murders leading to his
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imprisonment and I believe is about 300 years sentence.
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The son of Sam case remains one of the most infamous and
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chilling chapters in the history of American serial killers.
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Several serial killers including David Berkowitz have claimed to
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become born again Christians while in prison.
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Richard Ramirez, also known as the Night Stalker, Jeffrey
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Dahmer, the Milwaukee Cannibal, Ted Bundy, Dennis Rader, Also
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known as the BTK Killer or Buying Torture and Kill and and
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others. Are these jailhouse conversions
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real? Is evil real?
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Or are those who can commit senseless, horrific violence
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simply psychopaths? When there are claims of demonic
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influence and hearing voices, if real, are they psychological
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only or are they diabolical? Or can they be both?
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A new a new book has been released entitled Monster
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Mirror. The author, Doctor Michael
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Capparelli, spent 100 hours with David Berkowitz, the son of Sam
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in prison interviews. Michael was a pastor for 16
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years and understands the spiritual side.
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He also has a PhD in advanced studies of human behavior, so he
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understands the human psyche. And that combination gives an
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intriguing, intriguing, and holistic view of human behavior,
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especially when the behavior could only be described as evil.
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We're fortunate to have Doctor Capelli on today and welcome
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Doctor Capparelli. Thank you for having me on, Ken.
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It's a pleasure. Yeah.
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So, son of Sam, what led you to David Berkowitz?
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Well, you know, I had written a few prior books on mental health
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from a faith-based perspective. Back in 2021.
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I mailed David a copy of Doctor Jesus, which was one of my prior
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books on mental health. I mailed it to him just with a
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compassion for those in prison. I grew up in a home where my dad
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was in prison. My mother used to take me to see
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him, euphemisms in Italian American families.
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His dad is in school, I said. Where is he?
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I was about 10 years old and she said, well, he's in school.
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I said what's he majoring in? She said law.
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Funny thing is my dad's about, I don't know, close to 70 now here
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I am, my mid 40s and he still references the days when he went
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to law school. I'm like, dad, you didn't go to
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law school. It's we're beyond this at this
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point. All that to say, I had a
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compassion for inmates because of my experiences with my dad at
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a young age. I also was incarcerated at 17.
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It was a very troubled adolescent.
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So with that compassion, I mailed David a copy of the book.
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He read it within, I don't know, maybe two weeks.
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I'd received back from him a letter and a request to meet him
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for a visit at Shore Gun Correctional Facility in
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Wallkill, NY, which is about two hours and 30 minutes from where
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I live. And I drove up, met with him,
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and he said to me during that first visit, a visit, number one
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in 34 visits, 100 hours. He said, you're the guy I've
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been waiting for to tell my story.
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You have both an understanding of the supernatural, having been
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a pastor for 16 years. And evidently by your book,
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Doctor Jesus and your education, you also have a nuanced
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understanding of the human psyche.
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So there there in in that first session, it began a case study,
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the longest analysis ever conducted, on David Berkowitz.
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Back in the 80s, a criminologist by the name of Doctor David
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Abrahamson had sat with David for about 50 hours.
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He wrote a book in 1983 called The Confessions of Son of Sam,
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and I doubled the time. And of course, my perspective
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wasn't merely Freudian, but it was also scriptural.
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So yeah, it began, I want to say, early 2022, and it carried
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me all the way through the summer of 2023, and the book was
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released in October of this year.
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Yeah, So skeptics, which I think we all should be on jailhouse
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conversions, what are the what are the typical reasons that
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happens when they're not real? And how often are they real?
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And and how do you know they're real?
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How do you know David Berkowitz is real?
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Great question. I mean, listen, David Berkowitz
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is not the first serial killer that I've ministered to.
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There were two others. I don't want to say their names,
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but they were both psychopathic, coming under the guise of
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religion, pretending to be Christians.
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At least one of them. And it took about, I don't know,
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maybe six months to a year for me to figure this out.
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And we reached an impasse in the relationship.
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It's just too many games. What's the what's the end point
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for them doing that? Are they wanting you to write
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off that they're for parole purposes?
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That they're reformed. Yeah, one of them.
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It was that for that reason. The other one was actually
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looking for money. At some point he wanted me to
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write a check over to his sister, who is obviously in free
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society to continue this case study.
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You know, expecting me to write a book and make some profit on
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it, he said. You know, since that's the case,
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I'd like you to send so much money.
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Gave me a dollar amount to my sister and it just ended the
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relationship with David Berkowitz.
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You know, you say jailhouse conversion, there are many of
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them. They don't last 35 years.
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Didn't Berkowitz gave his life to Christ in 1988 and to the
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extent of his involvement in his faith, I mean, he disciples 16
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guys. He meets with these guys every
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Wednesday night. He's been doing this for
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decades. He's involved in the Sunday
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church service. They call him pastor.
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So he's under constant watch and scrutiny to see if he really is
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the real deal. You know, we think jailhouse
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conversions, but those are typically, you know, experiences
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that are not steady, but they're spurty and they're typically to
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make an appeal to a parole board.
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Now, David does meet before a parole committee every two
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years. He's meeting before the parole
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board in June of 2024. But most of his parole hearings,
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he hasn't even showed up. He only shows up now because it
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was perceived as arrogance that he, he blew off these parole
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committees. So now he shows up no
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expectations of leaving simply to share his testimony.
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How do I know? Use the real deal.
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In addition to all that, you sit with somebody for 100 hours.
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Not only are you observing actions, people say actions is
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the best, you know, indication of someone's character,
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Certainly not speech. Talk is cheap, but I would argue
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that even actions are not the best litmus test people can put
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on a good act. I mean, Shakespeare said the
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world is a stage. All of the people are are
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thespians. The real indication of someone's
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character change is not actions, but reactions.
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Actions under pressure, actions caught off guard, taken by
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surprise. The Bible says to taste the
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fruit, and by the fruit you'll know the tree well.
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Fruit is the offspring of the trees root systems, and it's
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usually through pressure that that fruit vegetates or
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manifests. And I've seen David, I've seen
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what comes out of him under pressure.
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In fact, in one of the chapters I described, I talk about a
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moment when he was angry. I showed up in a particular
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session. He had a conflict with another
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inmate, the inmate said, something degrading.
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And when David showed up at the session, he was upset.
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I mean, beyond upset. I knew he was angry because
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typically when he walks into the room, he greets other inmates.
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He's very fatherly, very pastoral.
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This time it was a quick courtesy smile.
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Typically, he settles into the chair.
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This time he was sitting at the edge of the chair.
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I said, David, why are you angry?
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What's bothering you? And for three hours I watched a
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man get angry, but sin not so. I've had many moments.
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I described in my book, Monster Mirror, where I got to see not
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just David's actions, but I got to see his reactions.
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I tasted the fruit and the fruit speaks of salvation.
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Yeah. You know, when I think of just
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the Christian life in general and, you know, I grew up in
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church, so I kind of don't really know how many sermons
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besides reading the New Testament myself.
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But you know, Jesus forgives all sins and he'd forgive Hitler's
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sins and just on and on. And we kind of get that as a
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notion. But then when you like when the
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rubber meets the road and I think, you know, I believe that.
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But if I think if somebody randomly, for no reason or any
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reason, killed my child and I heard they had a turn around in
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prison, I think to be a part of me, like I know that's good and
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that a person's eternal soul matters, There'd be a part that
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I would agree with mentally, but there'd be a part where
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honestly, I think I'd be like Jonah, where I don't want that
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person to receive the gospel because I know God is merciful.
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You know that town at Nineveh or whatever, he didn't want to go
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there because they were, they committed such atrocities that
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he didn't want them forgiven. Do you know how the families
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have handled this or at all? You know, to speak to the first
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thing you said, Clive Staples Lewis said it best.
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CS Lewis, he said. Everybody thinks forgiveness is
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a lovely idea until it's actually time to forgive.
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That's right. You talk about forgiveness, but
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you're right when the rubber meets the road.
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And the rubber did meet the road.
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Vanessa Moskowitz Mesa Moskowitz was probably David Berkowitz's
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greatest hater. Her David Berkowitz's last
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victim, Stacey Moskowitz, I want to say She was 20 or 21 years
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old inside of a parked car in Bath Beach, Brooklyn, in August
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of 1977. David Berkowitz emerged from the
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shadows and he unloaded a 44 caliber bulldog into her brain.
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And in fact, that night when she was going out, she was going out
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on a date, NASA said to her, Stacey, please be careful.
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There's a lunatic. He's roaming the streets.
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He's already gunned down 10. Be careful.
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And she said, Mom, you have nothing to worry about.
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He's not targeting blondes. And she was actually the first
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blonde victim and his last victim.
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And NASA was a hater. Rightfully so.
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She couldn't stand David Berkowitz.
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If you go back and YouTube some of the earlier interviews with
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her on Geraldo Rivera back in the 1980s, outside the courtroom
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of his sentencing in the late 70s, she calls him a dog.
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She says that she wishes he'll rot in hell.
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But then in about 2000, she forgives David Berkowitz.
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I mean, God does something miraculous in this old Jewish
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woman's heart. She's living in Florida, and she
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writes David a letter. And they begin a friendship.
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They talk on the phone regularly.
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In fact, David gives me access to all the letters.
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They're actually behind me on the shelves, all the letters
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that were exchanged between him and they.
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So they became very close friends.
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They were actually going to work together on a book or some kind
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of project about forgiveness. But NASA unfortunately, was
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diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, and she died about 20 years ago.
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So looking at NASA Moskowitz and seeing the radical forgiveness
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of God, it puts you know me an outsider in a position where if
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NASA can forgive David, how much more should I be open to hearing
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his story? Right.
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The other things that comes to mind when I was thinking about
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this topic and the situation is, you know, it almost seems
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unforgivable from a human perspective.
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But then Jesus says, you know, all those you didn't visit in
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prison, you didn't visit me. And those you did visit in
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prison, you did visit me. Well, who's in prison?
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The eaves, rapists, murderers. I mean, there's troubled youth
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like you were, but it doesn't say just troubled youth.
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It just says prison and and that takes it to that doesn't exclude
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David Berkowitz or Ted Bundy's or you know you got.
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To I'm sorry, go ahead, I was. Going to say it's a tough face,
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I mean, it sounds great, but to live the kindness, it's really
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divine as it may be evil to do those acts.
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It's almost just as divine to engage that evil.
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You know, historically, every society has had its groups of
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people that were considered irredeemable in the Bible days.
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The tax collectors would certainly fit the bill.
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The tax collectors were, you know, swindlers.
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The tax collectors got what it takes to take what you got.
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I mean, they were just a lot of people's financial setbacks were
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because of the dastardly practices of the tax collectors.
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So when Jesus tells the parable of the Pharisee going into the
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temple along with the tax collector and the Pharisee says
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I'm not like them people, every society has had them people.
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I mean, you bring it to the early 1900s America before a A
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and NA, if you were a quote UN quote junkie, you were
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considered irredeemable. Now that has changed.
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You know, we've seen drug addicts go to Teen Challenge and
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other programs and be transformed.
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Every society has had those people.
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Well, in today's day and age. Those categories with cancel
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culture, of course, are growing more and more.
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But psychopaths are definitely the tax collectors of 2023.
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The data shows they make little headway in therapy, that they
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don't make much progress. Cancel culture certainly says
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they should rot in hell and die. Hollywood movies presents them
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as sort of mythologized, almost like devils in human form that
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have no hope for redemption. So for me, one of the passions
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of telling this story is, yes, David Berkowitz.
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In 1977 he lights up the psychopathy scoreboard.
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Any characteristics on the the dark triad that deals with
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psychopathy? From Machiavellianism to
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narcissism, all these traits, low empathy, Inability to
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regulate impulses, David fit the bill.
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He was undoubtedly in his own words at that time, a
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psychopath. So to see him transformed in
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2023 is a true miracle. And it was one of the great
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passions of telling this story. Personally, I can't stand cancel
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culture. I want to meet these perfect
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people that engineered this. I really want to know who they
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are, because to to write off someone and say they're beyond
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redemption is to really play the part of God.
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And I think that David Berkowitz is living proof that even a
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psychopath whosoever call upon the name of the Lord shall be
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saved. Yeah well let's take that into I
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think it's a not far of a leap to talk about you.
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So you just did the the mental scope psychopath.
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When does psychopath cross a diabolical area.
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So in his specific case, he claimed the demon was talking to
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him through a dog and then through words he was.
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He took it back and then he I think claims it again.
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But he was involved in satanic rituals or the occult world back
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then, wasn't he? So there was an element of
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demonic He didn't just pull that out of a hat after being
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arrested. That's correct.
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I mean, look, here's the deal. When we're trying to explain a
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guy like David Berkowitz, probably the easy trap to fall
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into is something known as causal reductionism.
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It's to reduce a complicated phenomenon to one simple answer
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because our minds want simplicity.
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So when people ask me was it psychological, was it
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diabolical? Was it sociological?
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My answer is it's all of the above.
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And that's part of my task in this book is to shed light on,
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yes, there were sociological forces at play within a cult
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that he was involved in. There was also a lots of
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psychological factors. And yes, we have an enemy that
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preys on the weak, preys on those that are vulnerable.
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So yes, David Berkowitz would tell you he was mentally ill.
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There were mental health factors that are described in the book,
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but at the same time a dark presence that he says began at
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6-7 years old. He's a little boy, and he he's
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hiding in dark closets for hours.
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It's a a sunny day in New York City Saturday afternoon.
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Mom thinks he's playing stickball with his friends on a
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Saturday afternoon and he's hiding under the bed for 3-4
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hours because he can't get enough of the darkness urges to
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jump in front of subway trains in the Bronx, the Soundview
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section of the Bronx, when him and his mom and his dad would
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train to Manhattan. So David says Mike.
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There was a dark presence from the time I was a young kid and
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and I believe the enemy is predatory.
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He preys upon the vulnerable and we describe in great detail some
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of the vulnerabilities, the risk factors, the mental health
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factors in the book Monster Mirror.
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And why do you call it Monster Mirror?
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So I meet with David and I'm expecting, you know, hearing
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David's story, 'cause I want to find out not just David and the
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now, but David then tell me about the son of Sam, the
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evolution of a baby into a serial killer.
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And I'm expecting and hearing that story, that I'm going to
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look into the eyes of a monster. Instead, I find myself looking
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into a mirror and I find some very striking, uncanny parallels
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between David and myself. And I walk away from each
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session thinking they're but for the grace of God.
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So go I Now listen, we've got 13 mass shootings a week in the
00:20:49
United States of America. That statistic is insane
00:20:52
compared to other parts of the world.
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We got to ask ourselves, why is this happening?
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And every time it happens, parents will say, I would have
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never thought my son. The criminal profile keeps
00:21:04
expanding. I mean, at one point, you know,
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the profile was pretty simple. This is what to look for and
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people that commit these crimes. Take Columbine, for instance.
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You got two killers behind Columbine.
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Eric Harris, Dylan Claybold. Can't be any different in
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personality, so different in even their mental health
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diagnosis but yet committing the same crime.
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So I I think we have to come back to the biblical perspective
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of people. Is that anybody's capable of
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anything. I think that criminal
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psychology. I I teach it in the college.
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You know I I teach psychology. Abnormal psych.
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I teach in three different schools, a Christian School and
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two secular schools. My PhD is behavioral science.
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A part of that was criminal psychology.
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But I think that these labels, these diagnosis, we got to be
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careful because the facts are any one of us can evolve into a
00:22:04
psychopath. I think the better term is
00:22:06
reprobate in Romans chapter one. Reprobate to me would be the
00:22:11
best parallel to psychopathy. It's a mindset that's distorted
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values of very low the conscience has lost its ability
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to feel guilt and remorse. But the the beauty of reprobate
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is the Bible's clear that anybody, anybody, given the
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wrong set of choices and the suppression of truth can evolve
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into this. It's a warning for all.
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So I hope that answers the question.
00:22:38
Yeah, yeah. We as a culture just call that
00:22:41
our dark side, right? Like everyone knows, there's
00:22:44
kind of a dark side, that most of us just have the background
00:22:50
or the life or the manners or the social skills or the control
00:22:55
to behave in a culture properly. And this isn't an excuse for Son
00:23:02
of Sam's. But you know, right, you tend to
00:23:05
look at their history and maybe they didn't have those
00:23:10
foundations. We had tons of weaknesses which
00:23:14
psychologically make them vulnerable to what we call a
00:23:17
dark side. But the dark side, faith person
00:23:20
or not faith person or say there actually is a dark side and
00:23:23
there is evil in what you're saying.
00:23:24
The weak are preyed on. And you know.
00:23:29
I want to hear yours on this but I think about and I was even
00:23:33
asked to be off YouTube because I said this before.
00:23:35
I'll say it again because it's scriptural is we think in our
00:23:38
minds like well you know that's super evil and that's demonic
00:23:41
and or people who murder in a sense they should be in hell.
00:23:46
Even if we don't believe in hell, we just know that's a
00:23:48
concept. But at the same time, like in
00:23:51
Jesus day, according to the Bible, the most holy men quote
00:23:54
holy men of the day and the law keepers, Jesus said their father
00:23:58
was the devil, that there's only a Kingdom of light and darkness
00:24:02
and that we're all If we don't think we're living in darkness
00:24:07
or involved, we don't have to be in satanic rituals.
00:24:10
But in that same Kingdom, we're It's only because we're deceived
00:24:14
and just don't know we are. You know, you you raise a good
00:24:17
point about the religious in Jesus's day.
00:24:20
Let's keep this in perspective. It was the religious that
00:24:23
crucified Christ that committed the most horrific act against
00:24:28
the most innocent person. Think about that.
00:24:32
I mean, you don't get any more innocent than Christ, and you
00:24:35
don't get any more horrific than the cross.
00:24:38
So you have religious people committing the most horrific act
00:24:41
upon the most innocent possible person.
00:24:44
If that's not tantamount to what a serial killer is capable of, I
00:24:49
don't know what is. So we we kind of come up with
00:24:52
these categories. You're right, and say, well,
00:24:54
those serial killers is a little bit different.
00:24:56
It's not. It's a different species.
00:24:58
It's not quite like the evil that I commit.
00:25:02
But I think the Bible is clear that the heart of man, not the
00:25:05
heart of a psychopath, the heart of mankind, is wicked and
00:25:08
deceitful above all things. We'd like to think that there
00:25:11
are other people. Other kids would commit school
00:25:14
shootings. Not my kids.
00:25:16
Other people would commit murder.
00:25:18
Not me. There are no other people.
00:25:22
And that really is the the reason for that second name or
00:25:26
or word in the title Monster mirror.
00:25:29
The book is not just a picture of a monster, but it's also a
00:25:32
mirror. The reader is going to meet
00:25:34
David Berkowitz, and in meeting David Berkowitz, the reader's
00:25:37
going to meet themselves. So going in as a seasoned,
00:25:41
former, seasoned pastor, a professional mental health
00:25:47
person, after that experience and that extensive time, what
00:25:52
did you learn? Did you come out thinking
00:25:55
differently about human nature, or see faith differently in any
00:25:59
way? Yeah, you know, I was just asked
00:26:02
that question on another interview and it really made me
00:26:06
think for a minute. I'm glad that you're asking it
00:26:08
now and I've already thought it through.
00:26:12
I, you know, I I had a period of of burnout.
00:26:16
I passed it for 16 years. A church full of people in
00:26:21
recovery from addictions release, ease from prison, the
00:26:25
mentally ill and I got to a point where I just lost the
00:26:30
confidence that people can change.
00:26:32
I just saw too many people take two steps forward, three steps
00:26:36
back. I was burnt out and pastoring.
00:26:38
I suffered 2 heart attacks. I had a minor heart attack and
00:26:41
then I had a widow maker while boxing in the gym.
00:26:45
I had a gym partner call 911 and they put 4 stents in me, just
00:26:50
completely burnt out from pastoral ministry.
00:26:53
You know you're burnt out. Here's a sign that you're burnt
00:26:55
out and I'll. I'll get back to your question
00:26:57
in a second. You know you're burnt out when
00:26:59
you're sitting down and you're fantasizing about how relaxing
00:27:02
jail would be. That's a time that's a good
00:27:05
time. You're burnt out good or a good
00:27:07
indication. So I meet David Berkowitz and
00:27:09
I'm this burnt out pastor and I sit with him for 34 sessions.
00:27:15
And my confidence that people can change and the worst among
00:27:21
us can transform. My confidence grew tremendously
00:27:26
because David Berkowitz, I watched him regulate impulses,
00:27:31
which they say psychopaths can't do.
00:27:33
I watch him experience great remorse.
00:27:36
I watch him exhibit empathy on so many different levels, and
00:27:40
then to go back in time and to hear his story in 1977, to look
00:27:45
at the pictures. The study for no 1600 documents,
00:27:50
court documents, arrest records, psychiatric reports, to look at
00:27:56
who he was in 1977 all the way through the early 80s.
00:28:00
Contrast that with who he is in 2023.
00:28:03
I walk away from this case study saying God can do anything, and
00:28:07
I'm glad I sat with this man because that my my faith, my
00:28:11
faith in God's ability to transform people was renewed
00:28:15
through this experience. How do people come to faith in
00:28:19
prison typically, or maybe him specifically?
00:28:22
Is it 'cause they have so much time?
00:28:23
Is it prison ministries? Or is it just a chain of
00:28:28
somebody found faith so they share?
00:28:31
And the China, it just makes its way through the jail cells?
00:28:33
And is there a big divide then? Is there just like these
00:28:36
hardcore guys? I'm I'm talking about the long
00:28:38
term life sentence guys. And then there's these Bible
00:28:41
study guys. It doesn't seem like there could
00:28:43
be much of an in between in in prison, but I.
00:28:46
Don't you have a lot? You have a lot of Muslims.
00:28:49
In fact, Islam is probably the fastest growing religion in
00:28:53
prison, not community. Well, Islam provides a certain
00:28:58
sense of pride, aggressiveness if you want to call it that.
00:29:03
It's more Islam is more appealing to the personality
00:29:07
types of those that are in the criminal population.
00:29:09
For David Berkowitz, 1988, he's been incarcerated already for 11
00:29:15
years, first in Attica, then in Sullivan, and he's walking the
00:29:20
prison yard. It's a winter evening and he's
00:29:23
by himself and he's as bitter as it gets.
00:29:27
I mean, he's, he had pretty much in 1988, the typical inmate
00:29:31
mindset. And I've dealt with inmates for
00:29:33
a long time that they are the victims, right?
00:29:37
I've been cheated. My lawyer lied to me.
00:29:39
The judge, you know, the judge did me wrong.
00:29:43
People. Society's got me wrong.
00:29:45
I mean, just that whole twisted mindset.
00:29:48
He's angry, he's bitter and he's walking the prison yard guy
00:29:52
named Rick. He's in his 20s, probably same
00:29:56
age as David, maybe a little younger.
00:29:59
He approaches David and he's a Latino man.
00:30:04
David hadn't really known him priorly, but he says to David,
00:30:07
Jesus loves you. And David says Jesus doesn't
00:30:11
want anything to do with a guy like me.
00:30:14
And Rick says I I disagree. And Rick meets him in that
00:30:18
prison yard for a period of six months.
00:30:21
I mean, he made David Berkowitz his personal project, his
00:30:25
assignment from heaven. While after about six months,
00:30:29
David receives a Bible from Rick, a little small pocket
00:30:33
Gideon Bible, New Testament combined with the Book of
00:30:36
Psalms. David takes it back to his cell.
00:30:40
Now he had read the Bible during his military days in the 70s,
00:30:45
but the experience he had with religion at that point was more
00:30:49
superficial. We'll call it that.
00:30:51
Now here he is in the cell. He's reading the Bible at night.
00:30:55
He doesn't want to read it during the day because he says
00:30:58
it's not easy to be a Christian in prison.
00:31:00
This idea that you become a Christian to have an easier
00:31:03
experience, that's not correct thinking.
00:31:06
So he waits till night time, kind of like Nicodemus coming to
00:31:09
Jesus at night, turns on his lamp.
00:31:12
The lamp shines on the Bible. He reads Psalm 34.
00:31:16
This poor man cried out to the Lord and the Lord delivered him
00:31:19
from his troubles. He gets on his knees, he said.
00:31:23
I spent about an hour sobbing just over my sin, he said.
00:31:27
Not my circumstances, not the wrongs that people did to me,
00:31:33
but the wrongs I did to people. I wake up the next day and it
00:31:37
felt like 1000 lbs had come off my chest.
00:31:40
I meet Rick in the prison yard that night.
00:31:42
I tell him I gave my heart to Christ, and Rick starts
00:31:46
rejoicing out loud, saying that there are angels celebrating
00:31:51
right now. So that was David's story.
00:31:53
It was a one-on-one in a prison yard, someone bold enough to
00:31:57
share the faith, and then his own personal encounter in his
00:32:00
cell with his Bible repenting of sin.
00:32:03
Yeah, well, what's your story? I mean, what I heard was
00:32:06
troubled youth, incarcerated and then 16 years as a pastor.
00:32:10
There's a little something happened in there.
00:32:13
Same deal. I was in juvenile jail.
00:32:15
I had a pastor in there who just passed away, by the way, died
00:32:18
three months ago, named Mike Krautman.
00:32:20
He was a clergyman who went into the juvenile detention Center
00:32:24
for 30 years. He worked as a correctional
00:32:26
officer, but they also allowed him to conduct Bible studies.
00:32:31
He was a guitarist and musician. He would play songs that he
00:32:34
wrote. They were usually kind of urban
00:32:37
theme songs. And I remember feeling the
00:32:40
presence of God. I remember him giving me a Bible
00:32:44
and telling me that what I felt was the presence of God.
00:32:46
My eyes filled up with tears. I didn't get saved in the in the
00:32:50
juvenile detention center, but I I felt the presence of God like
00:32:54
I could reach. I could feel him reaching out to
00:32:56
me. It was right after my release.
00:32:58
I met another believer, somebody that actually hired me at a
00:33:04
company I had to get a job per court order and that believe it
00:33:08
took me to church. The church service reminded me
00:33:11
of the church service in the juvenile detention center, gave
00:33:15
my life to Christ at 18 and never turned back.
00:33:18
I was in Bible school by the by the time I was maybe 2021.
00:33:22
Graduated Bible school, bachelor's, master's degree,
00:33:25
Liberty University. And then during my pastor and I
00:33:29
spent the about eight years of that pastor in pursuing the PhD.
00:33:35
So to kind of bring this in to kind of summarize here I think.
00:33:41
So your book is like I said at the intro.
00:33:45
It's really interesting and I think of course any crime junkie
00:33:49
people are going to be interested and as a matter of
00:33:53
fact, you probably saw it, I don't know.
00:33:54
But there's I just watched Netflix on Son of Sam.
00:33:57
They they did a pretty good job on that whole situation.
00:34:00
But they're not going to talk about a spiritual side like like
00:34:03
your book would or most books would.
00:34:05
So to have a a a pastor and a mental health person writing has
00:34:10
such a unique angle on it. What what would you say, what I
00:34:16
kind of see out of it in general besides learning about him and
00:34:19
his conversion and different things is kind of a hope hope
00:34:22
for like our own kids that we think aren't redeemable or are
00:34:26
just aren't ever going to come to faith or I mean if we bring
00:34:32
it down to our level, we may think, well serial killers
00:34:34
aren't in my scope of fear or I mean sphere of living on a
00:34:39
day-to-day basis. But just people we work with or
00:34:42
know, or they just say, well, they're never going to come to
00:34:45
faith. Well then you can read a book
00:34:47
like this and realize anybody can come to faith.
00:34:50
You nailed it. I mean, I am a peddler of hope,
00:34:55
and I'm hoping that that is, the book accomplishes exactly what
00:35:00
you articulated, that it gives a booster shot of hope to someone
00:35:04
reading it. Psychologically troubled can't
00:35:07
pull themselves out of the pit of depression.
00:35:10
A parent who's got some strung out kid kids strung out on the
00:35:15
streets. Maybe someone that, like David,
00:35:18
has homicidal urges. I'm so grateful that the book
00:35:22
ranked #1 new release on Amazon in October for three days in the
00:35:27
serial killer category. I rather it be a number one in
00:35:32
the serial killer category than in the religious books category
00:35:37
because it's a light in the dark place.
00:35:39
It's it's grace. It's grace in gritty places.
00:35:44
And that's what I'm hoping is accomplished, is somebody is in
00:35:47
a very difficult spot. There's no way out.
00:35:51
And they read it. And let me tell you, here's the
00:35:53
evidence of this. Not just my book since it's
00:35:55
released, but David Berkowitz receives hundreds of letters a
00:36:01
month for the last 35 years from the suicidal, from the
00:36:06
homicidal. Why do they write him letters?
00:36:10
Because they think we'll listen. He's not going to throw stones.
00:36:12
Not with his background. I can go to a guy like this.
00:36:15
He's a Christian now. He's not going to judge me
00:36:18
because he's he's he's come from the worst possible place.
00:36:21
Even the serial killer who committed 4 murders on a college
00:36:26
campus a year and a half ago, the campus killer, I think it
00:36:30
was in Utah or Idaho. Where was it?
00:36:34
Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's Utah.
00:36:36
Utah. The guy wrote David Berkowitz
00:36:38
twice. Two times.
00:36:41
So you know you got a whole world of people that are
00:36:43
oppressed. That I think David's story is
00:36:46
relatable in a in a culture that's this twist, twisted and
00:36:49
sick. We need to hear stories of
00:36:52
people that are twisted and sick, being redeemed and coming
00:36:55
to their senses. Our culture is so bad that I
00:37:00
don't know if the Son of Sam would have been a notorious
00:37:02
serial killer now because we're loaded with them that we don't
00:37:08
even know them by name. It's just it's too much.
00:37:12
He was the first fruits, if you want to call it that.
00:37:15
The first bad fruits of what we're seeing now is more
00:37:20
prevalent, more ubiquitous than ever before.
00:37:22
You're right in 1977 for David to do what he did.
00:37:26
I mean, for those of you that like true crime history, 1977
00:37:29
New York City was in a state of fear.
00:37:32
Nobody had ever seen anything like this.
00:37:35
The guys taunting the media, He's leaving letters to the New
00:37:39
York Police Department to Captain Joseph Borrelli.
00:37:42
He's leaving the letters on the corpses of the people he's
00:37:46
killing. The letters are printed in the
00:37:49
New York Times, the Daily News. New York is in a state of
00:37:53
hysteria because he was, at that time, an anomaly.
00:37:57
Disco clubs were closing early. They were normally closing at
00:38:01
1:00 AM. They were closing at 9:00 PM
00:38:04
because a lot of his victims were shot at night.
00:38:07
Women were cutting their hair short because a lot of his
00:38:10
victims had long hair or dying their hair blonde.
00:38:14
So we're talking hysteria because he was an anomaly.
00:38:17
But today that anomaly, Martin Scorsese said something
00:38:21
interesting. He's a popular film director.
00:38:24
He made a movie called Taxi Driver, which Taxi Driver played
00:38:28
a great role in. The Son of Sam killings.
00:38:31
A big influence on David Psyche. Because David's seen the movie,
00:38:35
he identified with this outsider named Travis Bickle.
00:38:38
And Travis Bickle, you know, the end of the movie, he shoots up a
00:38:41
bunch of people in New York with a 44 caliber.
00:38:45
It's the movie that inspired David to go out and buy a 44
00:38:48
caliber and you know, Martin Scorsese said just this summer,
00:38:53
He said back in the 70s, he said Travis Bickle was an anomaly.
00:38:58
He said now, and I don't know where he got this statistic
00:39:01
from, if it was based on a survey or what, but he said now
00:39:05
almost every other person is Travis Bickle.
00:39:08
Almost every other person feels like an outsider, feels like
00:39:12
they can't connect. They're on the fringes, they'll
00:39:15
do anything to get attention. And I thought that was an
00:39:18
interesting statement. It was right in in the wake of
00:39:21
the release of this book. And interestingly enough, as I
00:39:24
said, Taxi Driver was one of the factors behind the scenes in the
00:39:28
making of The Son of Sam. Interesting.
00:39:32
All right, Juan, thank you for your time and thank you for what
00:39:34
you're doing. You're doing a lot.
00:39:37
You're out there speaking, writing books, college
00:39:40
professor. Keeping busy.
00:39:45
All right. Thank you, Sir.
00:39:46
Yes, Sir. Thank you.
00:39:47
Counted among the outlaws, he said.
00:39:49
Come follow me people from all walks of life since and then
00:39:54
becoming outlaws.