In the latest episode of Becoming Outlaws, host Ken McMullen dives into the mysterious world of ghosts and the paranormal with guest L.G. Nixon, a fiction author known for her ghost novels for teens. Are ghosts real? What exactly are they? Together, they explore these questions, sharing examples of ghostly beliefs from scripture, including moments involving Jesus' own disciples. Tune in to hear personal ghost encounters from both L.G. and Ken, and join the conversation on the reality of the supernatural.
[00:00:00] Counted among the outlaws, he said, come, follow me.
[00:00:05] People from all walks of life since have been becoming outlaws.
[00:00:12] Do you believe in ghosts?
[00:00:13] How many times have you been asked that question?
[00:00:16] Or how many times have you asked somebody that question?
[00:00:18] If you were a kid at some point, maybe you're a kid now, but if you had summer camp or had someone spend the night over when it got dark out,
[00:00:27] maybe played the game ghost in the graveyard with flashlights, someone inevitably is going to tell a ghost story.
[00:00:33] Whether it's one they know or something they experienced, they thought they heard footsteps up in the attic or voices in the basement, of course.
[00:00:43] Or it's a friend of a friend who saw a deceased relative or a grandmother, you know, coming down a stairwell.
[00:00:50] And you know what I'm talking about.
[00:00:52] Actually, last year, I was in, I think it was last year.
[00:00:55] It's within the last two years, I was in Eureka Springs, Arkansas.
[00:00:58] And according to the internet, I was at the most haunted hotel in America.
[00:01:03] I forget the name of it.
[00:01:05] And of course, you do ghost tours and they tell you all these stories and whatnot.
[00:01:10] And they always have a room that is the most haunted.
[00:01:13] And I don't even think they let people stay in it.
[00:01:16] You know, it keeps the aura of the thing.
[00:01:18] But they do have one story I do remember, which I don't remember the name of the cat.
[00:01:24] We'll just call it Cuddles or something.
[00:01:26] But Cuddles, the cat, is dead.
[00:01:30] And the spirit cat is reported by a guest as suddenly, you know, showing up at the foot of their bed at different times.
[00:01:38] And they think it's a real cat.
[00:01:39] And then it disappears.
[00:01:41] And they tell the hotel lobby.
[00:01:43] And they're like, yeah, that's Cuddles, our spirit cat.
[00:01:47] And completely normal to that hotel.
[00:01:49] But, you know, you hear those kinds of things all the time.
[00:01:52] So do you believe in ghosts?
[00:01:55] Well, if you were sitting in, oh, let's say, let's make it spiritual.
[00:01:58] You're at a Bible study with all these Christian people.
[00:02:01] And they have their Bibles out in their Bible apps.
[00:02:04] And someone says, you don't believe in ghosts, do you?
[00:02:08] And you're like, of course I don't as a Christian person.
[00:02:11] Well, actually you do.
[00:02:13] Because you would believe in the Trinity.
[00:02:15] And there's the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
[00:02:18] So maybe it's a matter of semantics here.
[00:02:20] Like, what do we consider a ghost?
[00:02:22] And if there's a Holy Ghost, that implies, by my logic, there must be at least an unholy ghost.
[00:02:29] If not more than one.
[00:02:31] And Jesus' disciples thought Jesus was a ghost a couple times.
[00:02:35] So they believed in ghosts.
[00:02:39] I'm going to read a short, not a whole chapter of something, but just a paragraph.
[00:02:44] You tell me where you think, or at least in your mind, tell me, who you think wrote this or where it came from.
[00:02:51] Is it Edgar Allan Poe, Emily Dickinson, Stephen King?
[00:02:55] Listen to this.
[00:02:57] Now a word was secretly brought to me, and my ear received a whisper of it.
[00:03:02] In disquieting thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falls on men,
[00:03:08] fear came upon me in trembling, which made all my bones shake.
[00:03:13] Then a spirit passed before my face.
[00:03:17] The hair on my body stood up.
[00:03:18] It stood still, but I could not discern its appearance.
[00:03:23] A form was beyond my eyes, before my eyes.
[00:03:26] There was silence.
[00:03:28] Then I heard a voice.
[00:03:30] It's actually from the Bible, the book of Job.
[00:03:33] So what's going on here?
[00:03:34] What does the Bible actually say about ghosts?
[00:03:37] Should we believe in them?
[00:03:38] Should we believe in the paranormal?
[00:03:40] What's going on?
[00:03:41] To help me discuss that topic today of ghosts in the Bible is author L.G. Nixon.
[00:03:48] She writes books geared at teens with a supernatural bent with titles such as
[00:03:53] The Ghost of Darwin Street, The Ghost Rider, The Ghost You Can't See, and The Ghost in Your Christmas Present.
[00:04:01] Welcome.
[00:04:03] How'd you like that intro?
[00:04:04] I loved it.
[00:04:05] That was great.
[00:04:08] I believe that was Eliaphaz that was speaking to Job.
[00:04:12] That's right.
[00:04:13] Very good.
[00:04:14] You know, as a matter of fact, I've been doing this podcast for a couple years.
[00:04:20] It's Becoming Outlaws.
[00:04:21] It's based on Luke 23, 27, that he was numbered among the transgressors.
[00:04:26] But you can also use the term outlaws.
[00:04:30] But when I first started it, almost for a year, maybe eight months, I started it as Becoming Outlaws stories,
[00:04:39] true stories of divine encounters.
[00:04:42] And they were all ghost stories, but they were like holy ghost stories or paranormal that people supernaturally experienced.
[00:04:50] And some of them were on a demonic side, but they usually had a happy ending.
[00:04:55] But that's how I started this whole thing.
[00:04:58] So I'm interested to talk to you.
[00:05:01] So if people haven't really thought about it, explain how the Bible is actually a paranormal book.
[00:05:11] Oh, it is so paranormal.
[00:05:14] It is probably the most supernatural book you will ever read.
[00:05:20] I mean, if you pick it up, and I mean, we pick it up, we read it, and we gloss over some of the stories.
[00:05:26] And in your mind, you're just thinking, oh, it's just a nice story.
[00:05:31] But there are so many weird things in the Bible.
[00:05:35] The Bible talks about angels and demons, spirits, ghosts, giants, dragons, dinosaurs, witches, magicians.
[00:05:48] I mean, there's all kinds of strange stuff going on in the Bible.
[00:05:53] Psychic?
[00:05:55] Probably.
[00:05:56] Mediums.
[00:05:57] Mediums.
[00:05:58] You've got the witch at Endor.
[00:06:01] She brought up for King Saul.
[00:06:03] She brought up, if you read the text, you think it's Samuel, the prophet.
[00:06:11] Because Saul had gone to the witch of Endor to speak to Saul or speak to Samuel.
[00:06:19] And he had already died.
[00:06:22] And so he wanted this witch to bring him back so he could talk to him.
[00:06:27] Well, she brings up what I believe is consistent with the Bible as being probably a fallen angel or a demon.
[00:06:36] King Saul didn't see what she brought up.
[00:06:40] He couldn't see it.
[00:06:41] She saw it.
[00:06:43] And this entity presented himself as the prophet Samuel.
[00:06:49] Well, evil can't call up good.
[00:06:55] And King Saul was, by his own edict, was prohibited from going to the witches.
[00:07:03] Well, he broke his own law.
[00:07:06] And so she brings up the spirit.
[00:07:10] And the spirit didn't tell them anything new.
[00:07:14] And so it was an evil spirit.
[00:07:18] And eventually, you know, Saul figured out that, you know, he was going to die at some point.
[00:07:25] And God had left him.
[00:07:28] Well, there are other things.
[00:07:30] If you go back to the story of Moses in front of Pharaoh.
[00:07:36] Moses throws down his staff.
[00:07:39] It becomes a snake.
[00:07:41] The magicians in front of Pharaoh threw down their staffs.
[00:07:47] And they became snakes.
[00:07:48] Well, we understand where Moses received his power.
[00:07:53] He was receiving the power through the power of God.
[00:07:58] And you're reading this story and you just kind of gloss over it that the magicians had power to change their staffs into snakes as well.
[00:08:09] Where did they get their power?
[00:08:12] And so, see, these are the weird, weird things that are happening in the Bible.
[00:08:18] And the Bible teaches us that God is a spirit.
[00:08:23] Well, we are spirits.
[00:08:27] So when we worship God, we worship him in spirit and truth.
[00:08:32] Well, that's kind of a hard thing to grasp for some people is that.
[00:08:43] What do you do with that?
[00:08:45] You know, when the King James Bible was translated from, I believe it was the Greek,
[00:08:53] the Greek word pneuma can be translated as ghost, spirit, and breath.
[00:09:00] And for decades, it's been the Holy Ghost.
[00:09:06] Well, that's just another word for the Holy Spirit.
[00:09:11] So, yes, these things are real.
[00:09:14] And if you believe the Bible, if you believe in Jesus, you have to believe that these things are real.
[00:09:22] And so, you know, whether it's ghost or spirit, like you say, semantics, it's these things are real.
[00:09:31] There is an unseen realm.
[00:09:33] And so, in order to teach teens and to reach teens with the gospel, I wanted to present something that they were interested in reading.
[00:09:46] Well, kids love ghost stories.
[00:09:49] We all loved ghost stories.
[00:09:51] Yeah.
[00:09:51] We like that, you know, that spookiness, that suspense.
[00:09:55] And, you know, by presenting, you know, a story that's a clean, fun, fast read for kids, but it's also based in scripture.
[00:10:06] Where, you know, they will learn that a ghost is not your, you know, your great ancestor that died and came back to say, hi, how are you?
[00:10:15] You know, it's a spirit.
[00:10:19] And you are.
[00:10:20] So, if I can pause you there just for a second.
[00:10:22] So, where we're at is we're spirit beings.
[00:10:26] So, if our body dies, a ghost or a spirit is a disembodied person, but scripture would teach that they don't hang around and visit people, that they have a place to go to, and they don't communicate with the living.
[00:10:43] Nor should we try to communicate with them.
[00:10:46] But that is what it is.
[00:10:48] That is exactly what it is.
[00:10:50] You know, the Bible tells us that, you know, it's appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment.
[00:10:58] And so, then, when that person dies, they do become a disembodied spirit, and they have one of two destinations.
[00:11:06] You go either to the smoking section or the non-smoking section.
[00:11:10] I got that from Jack Hamlin.
[00:11:12] But it's a cute way of putting it, you know, heaven or hell.
[00:11:16] So, when you go to a Confederate graveyard and somebody says they see a soldier marching there at 2 a.m. every night, whatever, what are they seeing?
[00:11:29] I believe they're seeing fallen angels.
[00:11:33] Because they can take on the human form.
[00:11:39] And they seem to be drawn to where there's a lot of death and destruction.
[00:11:44] And that's, you know, that's well proven.
[00:11:47] Yeah, I've heard the stories about, you know, ghosts at Gettysburg and, you know, other places.
[00:11:52] I even had a grandmother that said she could see ghosts.
[00:11:58] Well, she was a Christian.
[00:12:00] She believed, you know, in Jesus.
[00:12:02] She had received Jesus.
[00:12:05] But she would say at some of the oddest times, there's a ghost over there.
[00:12:10] I'm like, okay.
[00:12:13] Thanks, Grandma.
[00:12:15] You know, but I believed she saw something.
[00:12:19] And there is a gift of discernment of spirits.
[00:12:22] Yes, I believe there is.
[00:12:24] Where it's possible.
[00:12:25] So, let's back up a little bit.
[00:12:27] I'm going to go back, back into Scripture where you were.
[00:12:31] Okay.
[00:12:32] And so, you talked about Moses, for instance.
[00:12:35] And the magicians were the people.
[00:12:41] They weren't, well, I guess they kind of were.
[00:12:43] But they weren't magicians like David Copperfield of today or whatever.
[00:12:45] These were people, the magic dark arts that worked for the Pharaoh.
[00:12:51] And with God giving rules like don't make graven images and worship them,
[00:12:56] it's not just that he's jealous of a totem pole.
[00:12:59] It would be that all through history and shown in the Old Testament,
[00:13:07] is that they can signify spirits behind.
[00:13:11] They're like physical representations of spiritual beings, right?
[00:13:16] So, ancient Egypt, for instance, is one of many cultures
[00:13:18] that would have so-called gods they worshipped.
[00:13:22] And it seems crazy because they're just made of wood and stone.
[00:13:25] But they're actually conjuring up the dark spirits,
[00:13:29] which would give them a level of dark power or magic.
[00:13:33] And the Bible, according to me, I bring it up because those stories,
[00:13:36] if you compare it to today, well, is there anything real like that?
[00:13:39] Well, they don't go away.
[00:13:40] And the Bible gives us stories, examples that just,
[00:13:46] it was just a fact that this happens and gave us stories that this happens.
[00:13:50] Oh, absolutely.
[00:13:51] I mean, you go back to some of the ancient, you know, the first believers, the patriarchs.
[00:13:57] They were so much more familiar with all of this stuff than what we are
[00:14:03] because, you know, we look at it and it makes us uncomfortable.
[00:14:08] It's weird.
[00:14:09] We don't know what to do with it.
[00:14:10] So, we just kind of gloss over it or we just choose not to believe in it.
[00:14:13] But if you go back and you read the book of Enoch, okay, it's not in the Bible,
[00:14:19] but it is a, it's Jewish history.
[00:14:23] You know, the Bible mentions Enoch as being, you know, a prophet.
[00:14:27] And he walked with God for 300 years.
[00:14:30] I have to believe that God showed him a lot of things that, you know,
[00:14:34] you and I would, wouldn't understand.
[00:14:38] But, you know, if you read the book of Enoch, it explains a lot of how these things came about,
[00:14:49] you know, talking about the dark arts, metallurgy, potions and that type of thing.
[00:14:58] These were, Enoch referred to them as watchers.
[00:15:02] Well, the watchers were the spiritual entities.
[00:15:08] They were the sons of God.
[00:15:09] They were created beings.
[00:15:12] And they were given authority over man to guide them, but they went astray.
[00:15:20] And so they taught things to humans that they shouldn't have.
[00:15:27] And being the dark arts, that's one of the things that, you know, that man learned.
[00:15:32] And so the magicians were in contact, I believe, with, you know, some of these entities.
[00:15:40] And they did worship them as gods, you know.
[00:15:43] And I heard a historian, theologian a while back say that the plagues in the book of Exodus were aimed at the gods that Egypt worshipped.
[00:15:59] At each individual god of Egypt.
[00:16:00] Yep.
[00:16:01] And so now that starts to make more sense.
[00:16:06] I mean, God's not going to say, you know, you shouldn't have any graven images.
[00:16:10] You know, you shouldn't worship any other gods above me if it's just a piece of wood.
[00:16:15] He's not worried about a piece of wood.
[00:16:17] You know, he wants your love and attention and not for you to put it on this other entity, which is a created entity.
[00:16:27] It's a created spirit.
[00:16:28] These entities can be so real in what you're referring to as called the sons of God in the Old Testament.
[00:16:36] That somehow, and this still boggles my mind, I don't want to think graphically of how it happened, but so real that they could produce offspring with human women, which led to the flood of Noah to get such evil off the world.
[00:16:53] Yeah.
[00:16:55] That's nuts.
[00:16:57] I mean, it sounds like if I wasn't a believer and I just listened to some of these stories, it sounds as kooky as some of the cult stories.
[00:17:05] Like, well, these beings from heaven came and had relations with women and created demigods.
[00:17:13] And then, you know, the ultimate God had to flood the earth.
[00:17:15] It sounds like, it almost sounds like mythology.
[00:17:19] Yeah.
[00:17:19] But I'd have to say mythology really is a mimic, usually of, lies are really a mimic of a real thing.
[00:17:25] Yeah.
[00:17:25] Of reality.
[00:17:27] Yeah.
[00:17:27] And if you can get that grasp, it explains, you know, you have whole shows on like ancient aliens and stuff and the whole concept.
[00:17:35] And there's other, there's got to be, if not ancient aliens, there was an ancient culture that was super smart and stuff.
[00:17:41] Trying to explain how they understood mathematics, how they understood the alignments of the planets and the stars, how they built such perfection structures that we can't do with our equipment today.
[00:17:52] Well, it must be aliens.
[00:17:53] And, well, one, yes.
[00:17:56] I mean, what do you think God is?
[00:17:59] If you're talking about something not of this world, that's the whole story of Jesus as someone who came from heaven.
[00:18:05] But that they're, like you're saying, fallen entities that mankind since the beginning has had in their different religions and cultures and have tapped into it somehow.
[00:18:21] And it's always giving them insight to like mathematics, the stars, planetary systems, and some kind of dark power with it.
[00:18:33] And it's always dark.
[00:18:35] Oh, absolutely.
[00:18:37] You know, it's, yeah, like you say, it's, it's fantastical.
[00:18:42] It's, I don't know that I can believe this.
[00:18:44] But as a Christian, this is, you know, these things are in the Bible.
[00:18:49] And if you study the Bible and you do a deep dive and you start peeling back those layers, you know, like with the, you know, Moses and with the magicians, you know, how did they turn their staffs into, you know, snakes?
[00:19:02] Well, they were receiving power.
[00:19:05] They were receiving, they knew the dark arts.
[00:19:08] Where did they learn them?
[00:19:09] From these deities that they, you know, that they worshiped.
[00:19:12] These are spiritual created entities.
[00:19:16] And God had, you know, given them certain responsibilities and knowledge.
[00:19:23] And then when they came to earth, they shared that, you know, information with, you know, with the humans.
[00:19:28] And so this is where you start doing that deep dive.
[00:19:34] And you can, you can find a lot of layers to keep pulling back.
[00:19:38] And I think you'll find that there's a consistency, even to modern day, like with the stuff they're uncovering with super successful people and underground networks and all of this.
[00:19:50] But there's all the way back through antiquity and in Bible times, there's at least one of two, if not both things involved.
[00:19:59] And it's always human sacrifice of some kind and some kind of sex perversion.
[00:20:08] Those always seems like rites of passage into like a darker power and into these cults that I find anyway.
[00:20:17] And to me, the reason would be because it goes against like a perfect truth of what relationships should be.
[00:20:24] And the call to never, by God, sacrifice human blood, but yet he did, but it was to be once and for all and anything else is a demonic imitation.
[00:20:39] But it's still spiritual.
[00:20:41] It's, it's, it is, it's a spiritual, it's a spiritual warfare.
[00:20:45] And, you know, you see all the dark things that are happening, you know, in the world around us.
[00:20:49] If you look at what's happening in the world through the lens of scripture, you'll see that, you know, a lot of these things were prophesied.
[00:21:00] And, you know, it's, it's that demonic influence, that satanic influence.
[00:21:07] Lucifer doesn't want, he doesn't like us because we're imagers of God and he wants to destroy that.
[00:21:13] And so the way to destroy that is to confuse the thinking, to pull them away from God and make, you know, man think that they're in charge of their own life, you know.
[00:21:26] And how do you do that?
[00:21:27] You do that through, you know, evil acts.
[00:21:30] You, you know, you do it through sexual perversion.
[00:21:33] You do it through.
[00:21:36] You'll find it's always something strictly, it's always something that God has strictly forbidden.
[00:21:43] If you'll do it is an entryway into the darkness.
[00:21:47] Yeah.
[00:21:48] He's, yeah, Satan is trying to destroy, you know, mankind because we are imagers of God.
[00:21:56] And that, I believe, is his main, you know, main purpose is to, you know, try and wreak as much havoc with, you know, mankind as possible.
[00:22:08] You know, confuse the thinking, confuse morality.
[00:22:12] And, and that's, that's what he's all about.
[00:22:15] So, you know, the only way we can stand against that is turn to the Lord.
[00:22:21] And, you know, become an outlaw, stand with Jesus, you know, receive Jesus.
[00:22:27] And as the days get darker, we, we need Jesus and his light.
[00:22:33] And the outlaw concept, not just to talk about the podcast, but is that scripture teaches that Satan is the God of this world.
[00:22:42] Which I think a lot of people get confused.
[00:22:43] Like, why do bad things happen if God's in control?
[00:22:46] Well, what they're confused about is the world being the societal system.
[00:22:50] And God's not running that.
[00:22:52] Satan is the God of societies.
[00:22:57] Which is why, you know, in end time prophecy, it's all societies will come together under one head because it's demonically driven to come together to power.
[00:23:06] But he's not running things.
[00:23:09] So when you come to Christ, there's only like a kingdom of light and a kingdom of darkness.
[00:23:14] You're stepping from, you didn't even know you were in that.
[00:23:17] You didn't know you were in the dark.
[00:23:19] You didn't know you were in the dark until you find the light.
[00:23:22] And that's when I say you're an outlaw because you're outside of societal norms now and can clearly see it.
[00:23:31] When you're in it, you don't, you don't know.
[00:23:33] You're like the, what is it?
[00:23:36] The frog in a pot that's slowly boiling.
[00:23:38] You don't even know you're suffering.
[00:23:39] You don't realize it.
[00:23:40] Yeah, exactly.
[00:23:42] Yeah.
[00:23:42] Okay.
[00:23:42] I'm going to challenge you a little bit here.
[00:23:44] Are you ready?
[00:23:44] Okay.
[00:23:46] Let's go to the Mount of Transfiguration.
[00:23:49] Okay.
[00:23:52] So for those listening, by the way, I didn't tell you before we started.
[00:23:55] We have people listening that are Bible scholars all the way to have never opened a Bible and, you know, whatever.
[00:24:04] So I try to, I try to go deep in a simple way.
[00:24:08] So I can't just say the Mount of Transfiguration.
[00:24:10] I have to say.
[00:24:11] So there was a time when Jesus and a few disciples went up on a mountain and they witnessed Jesus in a glorified state, meaning that he always just looked like a carpenter or a traveler or whatever, just a normal guy.
[00:24:25] But they saw like this glorified Jesus unveiled of who he was.
[00:24:30] Okay.
[00:24:31] Along with Moses and Elijah, that Moses had been dead long, long time.
[00:24:38] Elijah had been taken up alive into heaven a long, long time.
[00:24:42] But the disciples see all three of them.
[00:24:45] So here's where I'm going with this.
[00:24:46] Okay.
[00:24:49] I got the word right.
[00:24:50] Necromancy.
[00:24:51] Whatever the word is, you're not allowed to call up the dead.
[00:24:53] Correct.
[00:24:55] And what you referred to with the witch of Endor.
[00:24:58] Uh-huh.
[00:25:00] Now, it's not mentioned, so I'm bringing this up, is let's put Elijah away for a minute because according to the Bible, he's not dead.
[00:25:09] We don't know that he physically died.
[00:25:11] Correct.
[00:25:13] Moses did.
[00:25:14] And they talk about his body being buried.
[00:25:16] Now we see his spirit has been risen to the natural realm, talking with Jesus.
[00:25:24] Did Jesus commit, who did no sin and never disobeyed a law, conjure up a dead person?
[00:25:33] No.
[00:25:34] No.
[00:25:35] Because I believe that, you know, Moses was in heaven with the Father.
[00:25:42] You know, the spirit goes to heaven when we die.
[00:25:46] For those of us who've received Jesus.
[00:25:48] Okay.
[00:25:48] Let me pause.
[00:25:49] This is an argumentative.
[00:25:50] This is like engaging.
[00:25:52] But let me pause before you go on.
[00:25:54] Okay.
[00:25:54] So this is before, I'm just clarifying for people.
[00:25:57] This is before the crucifixion.
[00:25:58] Correct.
[00:25:59] Before resurrection.
[00:26:01] And it's during Jesus' time when Jesus taught, no man has been to heaven except the one who came to heaven.
[00:26:09] Uh-huh.
[00:26:10] Okay.
[00:26:13] Well, I would say he's, he's in the, he's also in, he's part of the Father.
[00:26:22] You know, he's part of the Father.
[00:26:25] He and the Father are one.
[00:26:27] And so while Jesus, he's in that glorified state, I believe he had communication with his Father.
[00:26:37] And Moses was allowed to be part of that.
[00:26:41] And so he was, you know, seen on top of the mount as well.
[00:26:46] I don't think there's any kind of necromancy going on there because his spirit was in heaven with God the Father.
[00:26:53] So I don't see where there's any, you know.
[00:26:57] Here's what I would say.
[00:26:57] I would agree.
[00:26:58] I, what you're saying is the majority of Christian thought.
[00:27:04] Okay.
[00:27:04] So I understand it, appreciate it.
[00:27:07] I'm a Bible enthusiast, not a scholar.
[00:27:09] Yeah, you know.
[00:27:09] So I'm not trying to challenge you.
[00:27:10] I'm just trying to have like a deeper discussion.
[00:27:12] So here's my thought on it.
[00:27:16] Okay.
[00:27:17] And you know there's different thoughts.
[00:27:18] And who knows?
[00:27:18] Some of these are like, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day.
[00:27:23] This isn't salvation ending.
[00:27:25] Here's my thought is, Jesus taught that no one has been to heaven except the one who came to heaven.
[00:27:31] And even in our Apostles' Creed, it talks about that he descended into hell after the crucifixion.
[00:27:41] And then he led captivity captive.
[00:27:44] And he preached to the spirits down there.
[00:27:45] So I come from the viewpoint, and there's different camps.
[00:27:49] So when I, so you could be totally right.
[00:27:53] Here's where I lean off a little bit this way is that every person that died went into a Hades, a storage place that would have been called Abraham's bosom, awaiting freedom, and that nobody had been to heaven.
[00:28:11] And that's why he came.
[00:28:13] And so, and then, and then that's why after the resurrection, we see about, we see lots of people rising from the dead, kind of on their way, a visible thing that people had been, saints had been preached to.
[00:28:27] They know the Savior's come.
[00:28:29] And now they, this train leads up into, now they're in heaven.
[00:28:33] So now when we die, we're present with the Lord.
[00:28:35] Okay.
[00:28:36] I don't believe that was the case.
[00:28:37] A lot of people do, like you, probably three quarters of Christians.
[00:28:40] At the end of the day, it's not a salvation thing.
[00:28:44] It's just a conversation piece.
[00:28:46] But if you take that conversation piece to, back to Samuel, I understand where you're coming from.
[00:28:55] Once again, that's three quarters of the Christian thought.
[00:28:58] I would lean towards that the witch did not bring up Samuel, but that it was Samuel.
[00:29:06] Because, like I said, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter.
[00:29:09] And what you're saying sounds could totally be true as well.
[00:29:13] The reason I lean that way is because Scripture says, keeps referring to him as Samuel.
[00:29:19] And it doesn't say someone that looked like Samuel or a deceptive spirit like Samuel.
[00:29:25] But if you put it into the mind thought that nobody could do that, especially a witch, that makes sense.
[00:29:30] That it must have been.
[00:29:32] But, you know, we're still saying it must have been.
[00:29:34] But if you go right with the text, calls him Samuel.
[00:29:40] And it came up, which in my belief would have been Abraham's bosoms in a place called Hades,
[00:29:46] where demonic spirits are roaming the earth.
[00:29:48] They wouldn't have come up from anywhere.
[00:29:49] And that it was one of those rare instances, like Moses, a dead person's spirit appearing,
[00:29:58] even though it's against the law for man to do it.
[00:30:01] But God overrode that law because of a divine purpose.
[00:30:05] So, in my view, it's possible that was Samuel for a divine purpose that God overrode.
[00:30:11] Because even the witch was terrified when she saw Samuel come up,
[00:30:15] knowing it was Samuel, not expecting to actually call Samuel up.
[00:30:20] That's my view.
[00:30:21] It doesn't matter.
[00:30:22] Either way, it doesn't change the story much.
[00:30:26] And the truths we're telling are the same, is that man is not supposed to be doing that stuff.
[00:30:32] Correct.
[00:30:33] But I'll give you like one more example.
[00:30:34] It's like we're not allowed to do drink blood or do human sacrifice.
[00:30:39] Right.
[00:30:40] But that's exactly the, Jesus says, drink my blood, which is metaphorical.
[00:30:46] But it's because God actually violated that law and did a human sacrifice.
[00:30:54] But we can't do it because it was God's one and only sacrifice.
[00:30:59] But he actually sacrificed a man and shed blood.
[00:31:03] So, that's my example of even like the Moses is like they are rules, but they're not God's rules.
[00:31:10] It's things we can't do because God has a plan for those.
[00:31:14] Right.
[00:31:15] You know what I mean?
[00:31:16] I do.
[00:31:17] I do.
[00:31:18] No other man can be sacrificed because there was only going to be one man sacrificed.
[00:31:22] Right.
[00:31:22] There could only be one mediator between God and man, and that's the Christ Jesus.
[00:31:28] So, you know, I understand what you're saying is that, you know, there are certain instances where the rules get broken and only God can break them.
[00:31:36] But, you know, like in the situation with Samuel and the witch and King Saul, in my mind, it's stepping out of scripture, what we've been taught.
[00:31:53] And so, you know, I will still hold to that.
[00:31:57] I mean, and it's not.
[00:31:57] Sure, I respect that.
[00:31:58] Yeah.
[00:31:59] And it's not going to change anything at the end of the day if we both believe that, you know, Jesus is the only way to heaven.
[00:32:06] We're, you know, we're good.
[00:32:07] And we both agree that we should not be trying to call up dead people.
[00:32:11] Exactly.
[00:32:13] Or calling them down now, whichever way.
[00:32:15] Yeah.
[00:32:15] So it's interesting when people in their minds, I think a lot, Christian people, they separate the paranormal from the Bible.
[00:32:26] I remember once hearing, you know, commentator news guy, Bill O'Reilly, when he was still on Fox News.
[00:32:32] Okay.
[00:32:33] And, you know, he's Catholic.
[00:32:34] And he said something, he said something to the effect of, he's Catholic and he believes in scripture, everything in it, except the supernatural.
[00:32:49] And I thought that was, for a smart guy, that was the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
[00:32:55] Yeah.
[00:32:55] It doesn't make sense.
[00:32:57] No.
[00:32:58] The book claims of itself that the words are supernatural, much less every story in it.
[00:33:04] Exactly.
[00:33:06] So along those lines where people try to separate, well, I'm too intelligent to believe in demons.
[00:33:12] And those stories are in there because 2,000 years ago, guys weren't as smart as me.
[00:33:17] So they were just, it's a mix of truth and fairy tale.
[00:33:22] Give the examples I referenced in the intro of where the disciples obviously believed in ghosts.
[00:33:32] And they thought two times that Jesus was.
[00:33:35] Yeah.
[00:33:35] They thought when they were on the Sea of Galilee and it was, you know, the storming and it's, you know, they look out and here's this guy walking across the water, you know, and they think it's a ghost.
[00:33:50] I mean, nobody walks on water.
[00:33:52] You can't.
[00:33:53] And so they think it's a ghost.
[00:33:54] But then as Jesus becomes, you know, comes closer, they see that it's him.
[00:34:00] Well, you know, you can, who else can do that?
[00:34:04] Only Jesus can do that.
[00:34:06] And it's interesting he doesn't say, his response isn't dumb dumbs.
[00:34:10] There is no such thing as ghosts.
[00:34:12] He just happens to say, no, I'm not a ghost.
[00:34:15] It's me.
[00:34:16] Yeah.
[00:34:16] It's me.
[00:34:17] He says, it's me.
[00:34:18] Yeah.
[00:34:18] I mean, so he knows that that's what they're thinking, you know, and, you know, like you go back to King David.
[00:34:27] He even said that, you know, he thought he saw a phantom.
[00:34:32] I mean, there's so many different, you know, examples in the Bible that you can't, if you disclaim one, you have to disclaim all of them.
[00:34:43] And, you know.
[00:34:44] What about the resurrection?
[00:34:46] When the disciples first see him, they thought he was a ghost again.
[00:34:51] Yeah, they did.
[00:34:51] And why did they think that?
[00:34:53] Well, I still don't think that they had fully grasped the concept that he could actually come back to life.
[00:35:02] And then when they do see him, it's a game changer.
[00:35:06] And he entered the room without opening the door.
[00:35:09] Without opening the door.
[00:35:11] I mean, so, you know.
[00:35:12] This is my, this is my, one of my, I'm always on a thing where I always defend Thomas because his name, his last name isn't Thomas and his first name is doubting.
[00:35:20] Exactly.
[00:35:21] If you saw a man, you knew he was killed.
[00:35:24] And then he enters a room that's the windows and doors are closed.
[00:35:28] You might want to touch the guy to see if he's real.
[00:35:31] I don't see a problem with that.
[00:35:32] I don't see a problem with that.
[00:35:34] You know, and Jesus didn't see a problem with that.
[00:35:37] He said, you know, touch my hands, feel my side, you know.
[00:35:39] Yeah.
[00:35:40] And, you know, but there again, there's another good example of the supernatural.
[00:35:48] I mean, you know, think back to when, you know, Jesus was preaching and they gathered around him and they were calling him, you know, blasphemer and they were going to stone him.
[00:35:57] He just walks away, walks through the crowd.
[00:36:02] Yeah.
[00:36:02] If they were going to stone him, he was right there.
[00:36:06] Or was he?
[00:36:08] You know, he was able to blind their eyes that they didn't see him.
[00:36:12] So he just walked on.
[00:36:14] Well, you know, if he's supernatural and he has, you know, the power of the father, he can bend time and space to appear in a room without using a door.
[00:36:27] You know, he'd start on one side of a lake and then suddenly he's on the other.
[00:36:32] Yeah.
[00:36:32] Yeah.
[00:36:34] And how large was that?
[00:36:35] It was like, what, four or five miles across?
[00:36:38] Yeah.
[00:36:38] You know, it was something like that.
[00:36:40] And so, you know, they left way before he did.
[00:36:44] And he's just walking along on the water, you know.
[00:36:46] So that's that's one of those supernatural things.
[00:36:50] So what about you?
[00:36:52] Do you have a spook story?
[00:36:57] I could probably tell you a few.
[00:37:00] I grew up in a creaky old house with my grandparents.
[00:37:06] And I mean, it was the typical old house.
[00:37:13] I mean, it creaked.
[00:37:15] It was 150 some years old when we lived there.
[00:37:18] And so you would go upstairs to the second level and the stairs, you know, slanted.
[00:37:24] And, you know, typical creaky old house.
[00:37:27] And you would hear noises and, you know, doors wouldn't open.
[00:37:31] And my my mom, she grew up in that house.
[00:37:38] And so I always thought it was odd that that bedroom didn't have a door on it.
[00:37:46] And I had asked her about it one time and she says, well, I could lock it and it would unlock itself and open sometime during the night.
[00:37:56] And so my granddad just took the door off.
[00:37:59] So it solved the problem.
[00:38:01] So was that a ghost?
[00:38:03] I don't know, you know.
[00:38:06] But, you know, certainly you heard strange noises, you know, things that would go bump in the night.
[00:38:12] And my grandmother was one that, you know, like you say, spiritually discerning.
[00:38:20] She every once in a while, she would say she saw someone, you know, in the room.
[00:38:27] And I know I was sitting with her one night and she's the little lady is standing over there.
[00:38:35] And I'm going.
[00:38:38] Yeah, I don't see anybody.
[00:38:40] You know, and but if grandma said she saw some, you know, something I believed that she did.
[00:38:48] And don't you feel bad, though?
[00:38:50] Like I have empathy for people.
[00:38:52] I've had several times in my life and I never sit and challenge them on you let people grieve, but especially grieving people that lost a parent or grandparent.
[00:39:00] And then they tell you a story how they appeared to them and they saw them and whatever.
[00:39:09] And in your mind you're going, don't go too far down that path because scripture clearly says that the dead are not communicating with you.
[00:39:22] Correct.
[00:39:24] Your grief is hallucinating you or it's a demonic spirit and they're finding comfort in it.
[00:39:31] So why would it be bad?
[00:39:33] What people don't understand is the devil is not torturing people.
[00:39:37] He appears as an angel of light.
[00:39:39] So he leads you down a path.
[00:39:40] It can't even comfort.
[00:39:43] And it can make you feel better and find counsel in hard times so you gravitate towards it.
[00:39:50] But it's taking you away from scripture and truth into a different belief system.
[00:39:55] Yeah.
[00:39:56] Yeah.
[00:39:56] I mean, what better way?
[00:39:59] I mean, you know, if, you know, Satan can appear as a, you know, minister of light, so can his, you know, his fallen angels.
[00:40:07] And, and they can appear as that person.
[00:40:13] You know, if, if someone is grieving because they lost their, you know, their aunt or whatever it was, and auntie is standing in the corner, that's, you know, that's a fallen angel or a demon.
[00:40:26] And it's meant to give you comfort because now you're looking for comfort from that entity.
[00:40:33] And you're not looking for comfort from, from God.
[00:40:37] You're not going to the scriptures, you know, and you're, you're hoping to see auntie again, you know, or whoever it might be.
[00:40:46] And, and so there's a, you know, there's a real danger in that, that, you know, people don't understand that these, you know, these entities are real and, and we need to be aware of them.
[00:40:56] It's spiritual warfare.
[00:40:58] And a lot of the things that are going on in the world, if you look at it through the lens of scripture, you'll see, oh yeah, yeah, Bible talks about that, you know.
[00:41:07] And, and, and so we need to be, you know, very discerning, especially, you know, this, in this day and age, you know, we're, I think things are getting darker.
[00:41:17] And I've heard it said that, you know, while the world looks like it's falling to pieces, the pieces are actually falling together.
[00:41:26] And, and I think that's where we're at.
[00:41:28] I think we're looking, you know, very soon for the return of, you know, our Lord.
[00:41:33] And we need to be growing the kingdom and trying to, you know, encourage people to start thinking about Christ, start thinking about, you know, your eternal destination.
[00:41:46] And the reason I, you know, I wrote these, these books, you know, people love to talk about, they love to tell ghost stories.
[00:41:54] You know, kids like ghost stories.
[00:41:56] They, they, they like that spookiness or that, you know, that.
[00:42:00] I just asked you to tell a ghost story.
[00:42:01] I know.
[00:42:03] Well, okay.
[00:42:04] I'll tell you one.
[00:42:05] My, my mom was in a nursing home and she was, she was having health issues and we knew it probably wasn't going to be long before, you know, she passed.
[00:42:17] But one, one afternoon I'm, you know, I'm sitting with her and she says, there's a guy standing in the corner.
[00:42:26] And I'm like, I don't see him, mom.
[00:42:30] Mom, do you, does he make you nervous?
[00:42:32] Does he make you scared?
[00:42:34] What's going on?
[00:42:35] She says, oh no.
[00:42:37] I said, do you want me to ask him to leave?
[00:42:40] She says, oh no, he's fine.
[00:42:43] And, and when I kissed her goodbye that afternoon, I told her I would see her the next day.
[00:42:50] And she grabbed my face and she said, I really, really love you.
[00:42:55] And I said, well, I love you more.
[00:42:58] And so I'll see you tomorrow.
[00:43:01] And she didn't respond to that, that comment.
[00:43:04] So I left and the next morning she was gone.
[00:43:09] And I have to think that, you know, I've heard it said, and I, I think it's in the Bible somewhere where it says that the Lord gives his angels charge over you.
[00:43:19] And so I believe that, you know, that was an angel that she was seeing and it was there to, you know, to give her comfort and to escort her home.
[00:43:29] And, and I've had other people tell me the same thing where, you know, they have, you know, a loved one that says, you know, they've, they've seen someone.
[00:43:41] And, and I believe that's given, you know, to give us comfort.
[00:43:46] So, so that would be my ghost story.
[00:43:48] I didn't see the guy, but.
[00:43:49] Yeah.
[00:43:50] Well, there's so many stories of people in a room with a dying loved one at their last moments who seem the most joyous.
[00:43:59] They seem like there's somebody else in the room, even talking to them.
[00:44:02] And then they pass.
[00:44:03] It's, it's really amazing.
[00:44:06] I'll tell you, I have one ghost story.
[00:44:08] Before we wrap up here.
[00:44:09] I've never told it.
[00:44:10] I don't, maybe privately to a couple of people.
[00:44:12] So I'll do it now.
[00:44:13] Before I do though, back to people who are grieving and they see loved ones.
[00:44:17] I don't want to sound non-epathetic.
[00:44:20] I had a years ago, I had a daughter pass away.
[00:44:23] He wasn't even 10 years old.
[00:44:25] And I can tell you, if I saw apparitions of her, it would be hard not to move towards that.
[00:44:33] Yeah.
[00:44:33] But, but it's not real.
[00:44:35] And usually I think when, whether it's, some of it can be psychological, but I think when God does comfort in those situations, it's through people.
[00:44:45] Typically.
[00:44:46] And dreams.
[00:44:46] I think you have really intense, realistic dreams at times, which is more scriptural.
[00:44:53] Oh, definitely.
[00:44:54] That he speaks in dreams.
[00:44:56] And that kind of thing.
[00:44:58] But even a great Christian woman and friend, for instance, you know, several actually would say, well, now she's your angel.
[00:45:06] She's not an angel.
[00:45:08] She's a person.
[00:45:09] And now she's watching.
[00:45:10] I hope not.
[00:45:11] So that's one thing I say with people who are finding self-comfort, thinking your loved ones are there with you.
[00:45:17] That's very selfish.
[00:45:18] Like, do you want them just hanging around your life?
[00:45:23] That's not how it is.
[00:45:24] Yeah.
[00:45:25] And watching you mess it up.
[00:45:26] You know.
[00:45:26] Watching you mess it up.
[00:45:27] I mean, you'll see them one day, but they've got better things to do.
[00:45:30] Just hang around my life just so I consciously can feel better about that.
[00:45:35] But anyways, here's my ghost story.
[00:45:38] So years ago in the 90s, I stopped a pretty successful broadcasting career to go work in a church with just a handful of youth people.
[00:45:47] I just felt called to make a switch.
[00:45:49] And a terrible career move, but it spiritually couldn't have felt more right.
[00:45:55] And I was in this old church and I had an office.
[00:46:00] I lived next door and I had an office in this church and I'd work all night.
[00:46:05] And it was down the end of the back of a hallway.
[00:46:08] And it was an old, obviously, you know, creepers hang out in old places, right?
[00:46:12] It can't be a new modern way.
[00:46:13] It was an old one.
[00:46:14] And one particular night, man, I remember it like it was yesterday.
[00:46:20] I was there by, I mean, literally one in the morning.
[00:46:22] It's all locked up.
[00:46:23] Nobody's there.
[00:46:25] And this is before cell phones or whatever.
[00:46:27] I wasn't hearing weird technology.
[00:46:30] There was a group of people talking out and around my office like it was a Sunday morning.
[00:46:37] I couldn't hear what they were saying and it didn't sound like it could be.
[00:46:41] It was a group of people talking.
[00:46:42] Clear as day.
[00:46:44] Wow.
[00:46:44] I wonder, like maybe somebody came back from a retreat and they just gathered in the church at one in the morning.
[00:46:49] So I walk out.
[00:46:50] Nobody there.
[00:46:50] Pitch black.
[00:46:52] So I go back.
[00:46:53] It happened over and over.
[00:46:55] Oh, wow.
[00:46:56] And then I kind of realized I got the sudden impression or the epiphany that I was here for a strong spiritual purpose.
[00:47:05] And I felt like I was trying to be scared off by demonic forces is what I felt like.
[00:47:11] It sounds weird to explain out loud and then people are going to hear this.
[00:47:15] But this happened to me.
[00:47:16] And I got up and I walked through this long, dark hallway right where I heard the voices were coming from.
[00:47:23] And I wasn't scared because like if you have a knowledge and you think you know what's going on, then it's not creepy.
[00:47:29] But yet I felt fear.
[00:47:32] Like walking in that hallway, like I felt a fear presence.
[00:47:35] Not that I was scared.
[00:47:36] I don't know if that makes sense.
[00:47:38] Like, I felt like I was being watched and there was just a dark something.
[00:47:43] So I went to the front of the church and I decided where there were more lights.
[00:47:48] And I was kind of saying to myself or out loud, like, I'm going to do my job here.
[00:47:53] Like, I'm not going to be scared off.
[00:47:55] I've got whatever to do.
[00:47:58] And I went and I sat in the secretary's office, which is near the pastor's office.
[00:48:02] And there's like more light.
[00:48:04] And it's at the front.
[00:48:05] But I just thought this feels a little better.
[00:48:08] Then I would hear.
[00:48:09] And this sounds like I'm making it up, but I'm not because it's so trite.
[00:48:12] Literally, like a sound like a large man with boots on would walk all the way up.
[00:48:18] The sound of it to right where my door was, where I was sitting.
[00:48:22] And then it would stop.
[00:48:24] In the same thing, I would look and nobody's there.
[00:48:26] It happened a few times.
[00:48:27] And then finally, I was like, I had enough of this.
[00:48:29] And then I set an appointment with a head leader of the church.
[00:48:33] It was so real to me.
[00:48:34] And I said, this sounds weird.
[00:48:36] Here's what happened.
[00:48:37] I didn't even finish the stories.
[00:48:39] And this person said, yeah, we know that's been going on.
[00:48:43] So, janitors, anybody late at night, that's just been going on for years and decades or whatever.
[00:48:48] Oh, wow.
[00:48:49] That's my story.
[00:48:50] So, it felt very, so I never did I think it was disembodied humans hanging out.
[00:48:55] I really felt it was dark.
[00:48:57] Yeah.
[00:48:58] And that's what it was.
[00:48:59] I really think that's, you know, what it was.
[00:49:01] Um, my first husband and I, before, um, we did a lot of traveling and before he passed away,
[00:49:09] um, we had, uh, gone on a trip, stayed in a room in a hotel and he didn't sleep the whole night.
[00:49:17] And, you know, the next morning I'm asking what's going on.
[00:49:23] He says something really bad happened in that room.
[00:49:27] He was just, you know, he said it was so uncomfortable for him that, um, he couldn't,
[00:49:36] he, he didn't want to go to sleep.
[00:49:38] And at that point I was a, you know, very young Christian and, you know, I don't believe that I had,
[00:49:43] you know, developed that type of discernment yet.
[00:49:46] And, and so I wasn't aware of what was going on, but, you know, he was,
[00:49:51] and he'd been a Christian from, uh, a young teen.
[00:49:57] And so, um, he was very susceptible to that.
[00:50:02] And so I, I believe that he felt that there was something in that room and he said it was,
[00:50:08] it was dark.
[00:50:09] And so, no, I honestly believe that, you know, what you experienced actually happened.
[00:50:16] It was, you know, and these things will attach to, um, to inanimate objects, you know?
[00:50:24] And it never happened again, but right after that began a real, like,
[00:50:32] spirit movement in the positive way.
[00:50:34] So I almost felt like I was trying to be scared off, you know, and then, and then a positive
[00:50:39] kind of movement happened in that, in that church.
[00:50:42] Spiritual warfare for sure.
[00:50:44] Oh, definitely spiritual warfare.
[00:50:45] And, you know, our, our teens are paying the brunt of that now.
[00:50:50] You know, I, you know, the books I wrote to entertain kids, but to, you know, they have
[00:50:57] a spiritual thread through that, you know, through that book.
[00:51:01] And it has an overarching story of, you know, the gospel, you know?
[00:51:06] So, um, the first book, The Ghost of Darwin Stewart gives you, you know, very basic spiritual
[00:51:13] concepts and they learn that a ghost is not, you know, a dead relative.
[00:51:18] They learn what a true ghost or spirit is.
[00:51:22] And then, um, you know, my heroine Lucy meets, um, uh, a gentleman that she has to eventually
[00:51:31] decide who she believes that he is.
[00:51:35] And when she comes to that realization and knows who he is, there's a change in her.
[00:51:42] Well, by the time you get to the book, uh, The Ghost Writer, um, she's sharing that information
[00:51:49] with her, her best friend.
[00:51:51] And they're trying to help, um, a fellow teenager that's, uh, going through some difficulties.
[00:51:59] And, and, uh, by the time you get to book three, The Ghost You Can't See, that takes the,
[00:52:08] you know, that theme a little bit further.
[00:52:10] You learn, you know, each book goes a little deeper with spiritual concepts.
[00:52:14] By book three, um, there's a teen that's hearing voices and it's the same as what our kids are
[00:52:22] going through in, you know, this day and age.
[00:52:26] They're hearing these voices, whether they're, you know, friends, peer pressure, you know,
[00:52:32] societal, whatever it might be, but they're hearing these voices and they're confused.
[00:52:35] They need to know, um, they need to know who the savior is.
[00:52:40] And so the books are sharing that I use scripture as dialogue.
[00:52:48] So kids are getting a little bit of scripture and I'm leaning on the fact that, you know,
[00:52:53] the Bible says that, um, you know, God says my word will not return to me void.
[00:52:59] So if I'm using his word, I send it out there and just say, okay, I, Holy Spirit, I did my
[00:53:06] part.
[00:53:06] You go do your part, you know?
[00:53:09] And, and so I'm teaching them.
[00:53:11] And then also in the back of each book, there is the scripture references are given.
[00:53:16] And I usually have a, an author's note that just says, you know, Hey, I believe this, you
[00:53:21] know, what do you believe?
[00:53:23] And encourage, you know, teens to, you know, figure it out for themselves, you know, follow
[00:53:29] up on that.
[00:53:29] And if they do, that's the purpose of the books.
[00:53:34] If they choose that they, eh, I don't believe that.
[00:53:39] So they're still going to have a fun, entertaining read.
[00:53:43] Yeah.
[00:53:43] And, uh, but we're here to grow God's kingdom.
[00:53:47] Where can teens and or parents find these books?
[00:53:50] Well, you can go to lgnixon.com and that's my website.
[00:53:56] You can get all of the books there.
[00:53:58] Um, you have different formats to choose from print ebook or audio.
[00:54:03] The book trailers are there.
[00:54:05] So you can watch the, uh, the trailers.
[00:54:08] I have freebies on there so that, you know, you can download things and there's an activity
[00:54:14] book.
[00:54:14] They could, you know, enjoy doing that.
[00:54:18] There are more stories on the, on the website to continue that, that theme of the Isakar gatekeeper.
[00:54:24] So they can also go to Amazon, order the book, or if they, you know, want to go to, you know,
[00:54:31] Barnes and Noble or BAM or whoever, they can order the book as well.
[00:54:36] So it's available.
[00:54:38] Great.
[00:54:39] Hey, thanks for your time.
[00:54:40] I enjoyed the conversation.
[00:54:41] It was spooky.
[00:54:42] I did too.
[00:54:43] It was fun.
[00:54:43] It was fun.
[00:54:45] Thanks.
[00:54:46] Counted among the outlaws.
[00:54:48] He said, come follow me.
[00:54:50] People from all walks of life since have been becoming outlaws.