Cultural Christians in the Early Church

[00:00:00] Gathered in the memorial laws, he said, come follow me. Through the full walks of life sense, and then the coming hours. Welcome! Often when we think of the early church, the very first Christians, it's hard not to imagine them without the haloes over their heads,

[00:00:21] maybe even angelic music just following them around, and they float through life in a godly spiritual aura. Spreading the good news and living as blameless, senseless, saints on earth. At least that's the image that art and religious depictions have presented us throughout the ages.

[00:00:41] We seem to have a collective belief that the early church was nearly perfect and it's been an estate of gradual decline ever since leading to this, you know, cesspool. We now find ourselves in. It's always great to learn from the past, of course, histories that great a teacher.

[00:00:57] However, we tend to romanticize the past. There's a great book out that delves into the topic. In a reveals that no matter the time period, the church has been made up of surprisingly people. People like you and me, flawed.

[00:01:15] And each generation has allowed to one degree or another there be haiviers and their worship and their Christian faith influenced by their contemporary culture. Dr. Nadia Williams holds a PhD in classics and program in the ancient world

[00:01:33] from Princeton University and is a military historian of the Greco-Roman world. The most recent book is Cultural Christians in the early church, a historical and practical introduction to Christians in the Greco-Roman world. As a little extra later of interest to me is Dr. Williams defines herself as being

[00:01:57] have growing up a cultural Jew or in a secular Jewish household first in the Soviet Union later in Israel. And what does that mean? Cultural Jew versus Jewish or a secular Jew and of course, what does it mean to be a cultural Christian? And are you one?

[00:02:13] Yeah, I'm one. Dr. Williams, please help us out and welcome. Well, thank you for having me here. Yeah, I love this topic. I haven't ever discussed it here before but the term cultural Christian, I guess I've used it a lot.

[00:02:32] I hear it around. How would you define that? Well, it's a good question and with definitions of course we want to make sure the readers are listeners are on the same page. So when I think of cultural Christians, I think the people who go to church most Sundays

[00:02:49] but then the rest of the week you might compartmentalize your faith. You know, you go to work, you raise your children, you fight with your spouse maybe. You just do all the things that you would typically do because this is America.

[00:03:05] There's so many things available and you just kind of assume like this is just life. Especially like middle class American life. There are certain things you do and you just do all of them and you don't think about like what would the Bible say about this?

[00:03:19] And so that's where you become a cultural Christian. If anybody asks you like say on one of those like Gallup Pauls or something like, What are you? You would say like, well, of course I'm a Christian or I'm a evangelical.

[00:03:31] But if somebody were to start digging in like, well, what standards do you use for making decisions for any aspect of your life? Then it would suddenly emerge that, well, it's actually the culture.

[00:03:44] Yeah. When I think of it, I think of in terms of it would seem like it's natural that every generation would worship or reflect their Christianity within the bounds of the culture around them and nothing wrong with that.

[00:03:59] That's just we don't have to go back and try to live and behave exactly like people did 2000 years ago.

[00:04:06] But as far as following the faith and the beliefs, I see it as to go right to scripture with it as the horrifying example of Jesus turning away people who thought they were Christian.

[00:04:22] Who thought they were following him because they attended church or they did the cultural quote Christian things but actually weren't Christian. Is that what we're talking about or are we talking about just kind of how we do Christianity?

[00:04:39] I think it's a little bit of both and it's difficult to distinguish. The thing with cultural Christianity, what I'm trying to get at is you can't have until a lot of times you just live your life. And the same thing with the Christians who follow Jesus.

[00:04:53] So like for example, the chapter on finances, I talk about Ananias and Sapphira as kind of the first cultural Christians. So here are people who are thinking like I really love the church. I want to support the local church.

[00:05:06] I'm going to give them money, but also like they're thinking well how do we do this in a way that fits in our picture of Greco-Roman attitudes to benifaction? Well if I'm giving money to the church, they better recognize me or something.

[00:05:20] I want to get the praise for it and that's very much a cultural attitude that seeps into it.

[00:05:25] So we see them falling into sin perhaps because they were thinking more about things of the world rather than thinking well what is Jesus telling us to do when it comes to our finances.

[00:05:38] So you see kind of that like they want to follow Christ, but they also want to follow the world. Yeah. The early church fallen to. So I think the widest view of cultural Christianity currently would be what religion are you? Well, I'm a westerner so I'm Christian.

[00:05:57] You kind of put yourself under this general umbrella of your nationalism becomes your religion sort of thing. Then you narrow it down to Emma Christian, I attend and I do the right things that Christians do.

[00:06:14] And then you get down to Jesus teaching not so much about rules but that you must be born again, you have to have a conversion or you're living a cultural Christian life no matter what era am I looking at that correctly.

[00:06:34] I think so. So we're getting into kind of the it's really difficult you know for historians because we're trying to look at hearts like what is your motivation. And that's really difficult. Yeah.

[00:06:47] And yet we see those hands of that like again within an isense of fire, we see hearts that are moved more by culture than by Christ calling on their lives. But it is difficult and it leads to again that question of motive sometimes cultural Christians are.

[00:07:05] Rebelling in a way that's a little bit more discernible and sometimes it's more accidental.

[00:07:12] That's where culture is so dangerous because we live in it like it's hard to tell it apart what aspects do we think of something that we're doing, do we think oh that's that's the gospel and then you realize like well actually it's not.

[00:07:27] A verse that comes to mind is make your calling on election sure and I think about if you put in the context of this if it can be it would be like reflect on yourself and am I my living a Christian cultural life.

[00:07:42] Or have I connected with God in the real in experience the real faith like make sure. So I'd like to hear some of the stories of the early church, but I'd like to dive in a little bit real quick into your background.

[00:07:57] So in general in conversation if Jewish conversation comes up or Jewish race or this and that and if I explained to people that.

[00:08:09] Or I'll get asked a lot how in the world are there Jewish Christians that doesn't make sense to me, but the answer goes back to well there's cultural Jews.

[00:08:19] And then there's those who have come to faith and cries that you're born into a kind of a segment or a race of people, but that's not necessarily your faith. But in our minds we've combined the two haven't we.

[00:08:31] Yeah although persecutions of Jews I mean over the centuries have really emphasized the ethnic part it seems like perhaps more than religion so in that regard it kind of makes sense like the ethnicity I am a Jew.

[00:08:46] But my faith is I'm a Christian right which to me or a Christian point of view would be that. Isn't separate because we would say this is the Jewish Messiah but yeah.

[00:08:59] So explain a little bit about your background there like what was your family like growing up is it so not to be a culture or all Jewish person or what's called a secular Jew is basically your born Jewish right but you're not.

[00:09:12] And you're worth a docks in that you're practicing or attending synagogue in that sort of thing. Yeah well and I was born in the Soviet Union where religion was technically illegal so no one attended synagogue or church or anything.

[00:09:29] I guess some people did underground I didn't know any of them in fact I didn't even know that I was Jewish until about a year before we started the process of applying to immigrate out of the Soviet Union to Israel.

[00:09:41] And that's when I learned that my mother was Jewish and kind of there's this whole baggage to go with it.

[00:09:47] And so in 1991 right before the Soviet Union collapsed my family moved to Israel and that's where it was kind of like oh okay and that's where like in retrospect most of the kids I knew were cultural Jews for all of us Israel was important.

[00:10:08] So many I mean like for example one kid in my elementary or I think it was seventh grade class actually he's grandfather had been on Shindler's list like that sort of thing where you'd sort of like okay that hits home you know the holocaust is only a little bit removed.

[00:10:27] My own grandmother lost most of her family.

[00:10:30] I know less about my grandfather's story but I know he lost a lot of relatives too so it's one of those one of those things where you realize like that's when brings everybody together that you've lost relatives like people have actual names and of people that they've heard about but will never meet because well like they're gone.

[00:10:53] And Israel was founded on all of this like baggage the trauma generational trauma that combined. To just kind of haunt everybody in a way but religion wasn't really a part of it at least not in my school.

[00:11:08] I know there were plenty of observant Jews around but I just didn't know any I was in a circle like in a typical public school with other kids like me.

[00:11:20] So I love your background in this topic because you can study something but if you're born and raised let's say an evangelical Christian home in the West.

[00:11:34] You're still kind of in a bubble no matter how educated you get like I realize I'm in a mental bubble I have to try to think out of it but it's nice to have a perspective where.

[00:11:43] You're coming into let's say a Western world and actually an opposing faith then what you were born and.

[00:11:54] And then to be able to look at what cultural Christianity is because when you're in it you don't know it but seems like you could spot it easier at least in our contemporary culture I don't know if that's true or not but give us some example start back.

[00:12:08] You started already but in the early church. Where do we see it and I mean we see it and what Paul was addressing initially right absolutely. So what was going on kind of culturally that you'd have to say these seems seemingly obvious things to us today.

[00:12:28] Well and the fact that they're seemingly obvious to us today should give us pause because like what are our blind spots right so blind spots are always much easier to see in hindsight so history.

[00:12:39] One of my favorite memes out right now is that if Paul was here we'd all be getting a letter. Yeah I'm pretty sure that's true.

[00:12:49] Well so I mean even the Corinthians like that's so many blind spots there that we see the entire first Corinthians letter is basically that list of cultural sins. Like food how they treat. And then they treat them with a bankwitting with each other.

[00:13:07] The idea that some people go hungry and others get full well that's Roman banquet right there in a typical Roman banquet the whole idea is.

[00:13:16] The food that you serve and how much of it you serve to people reflects their status so if you're poor who cares if you didn't get anything because the Roman Empire doesn't care about you that's very much of Roman cultural attitude.

[00:13:28] And finding them like well this is not how we are like in Christ we're all beloved sons and daughters this doesn't work like that.

[00:13:36] Or the idea of frequenting prostitutes which he also calls out and again that would have been a respectable sin of sorts in the Roman world like everybody did it so and it's it's just a list of warnings of the things that like everybody's doing it.

[00:13:54] That doesn't mean that it's okay for you as a Christian but here you are living in a city that's very much a metropolitan city filled with all of the opportunities that are available to people living in that culture.

[00:14:08] Yeah one thing I found really interesting in your book was that I had never considered. You know I've always been interested in the martyrs and the martyrs stories because they're so inspiring that people.

[00:14:20] You know all they have to say a Caesar is Lord and they won't and they're executed or fed to lions or burned alive and and all that is still inspiring and.

[00:14:30] However, there ended up being kind of a dark side to that didn't it culturally that it became the in thing to do or the height of spirituality. Yes, so one of my favorite stories that I tell in the book is.

[00:14:45] Cyprian Bishop of Carthage in the height of the pandemic in the mid third century. He delivers this sermon on the plague to his congregation and it's sort of like a list of frequently asked questions and one of the questions that he noted.

[00:15:01] Getting from the congregation is people who are saying it's like, could I please not take care of these like sick and dying people? I don't want to get sick because I'm saving myself for martyrdom and it's one of those moments where it's like. Wait what just happened.

[00:15:17] Yes, and that's not a one off right I mean people it's not a one off. It became a thing for attention. I mean this is a terrible example but like it was almost the Christian Instagram of the day like the selfies and attention seeking where.

[00:15:31] Or worse is it reminded me a little bit while I was reading it except it wasn't harming others. But almost the terrorist point of view of honor in your death and I thought.

[00:15:43] I never really looked I mean there is in a Christian martyr for the faith but it was self glorification. To be remembered and seen as this and it'll bring honored to my name and we can make anything a sin can't we?

[00:15:57] Absolutely that's it that's exactly what it is we can take something good like martyrdom which was meant to be like a good thing you glorifying God and then make it about yourself in which case it actually becomes very homearic.

[00:16:10] Typical Greco Roman cultural kind of idea of honor I'm going to have a name that never dies because of this like really glorious death that I chose for myself.

[00:16:20] I think I could die this glorious death on the battlefield or you could die this glorious death as a martyr but it really adds up to that same kind of thing.

[00:16:28] So it is yet another example of culture like that deeply like the thing that soaks into your pores like you can't even tell that you're just inspired by the culture in everything that you do but there it is in those kinds of attitudes.

[00:16:46] And one else as far as I also found interesting I figure what you call them but the people that kind of made their way out into the desert to live the isolated life for Christ and the faith what was that about.

[00:17:02] Yeah I really I had a lot of fun reading their stories and it's one of those were it's easy to make fun of them it's these these people who said you know what. Being around people so all these sinful people who feel churches right.

[00:17:17] They're distracting me from God I'm going to check out quit church while I'm at it. I'm going to quit society go into the desert live on like three figs a week and maybe half a cup of water and just.

[00:17:35] worship God like focus on nothing but God for the next 40 years or however long the desert takes to kill me. And what's fascinating is that they become tourist attractions some of them anyway like Anthony.

[00:17:49] But in the process what is really intriguing is that we see patterns of sin continue to emerge so the sayings of the desert fathers and desert mothers that survive.

[00:18:02] Show their struggles with sin where one of them says I've been alone for 20 years and I'm still like I'm still struggling with an anger issue. It's a really.

[00:18:13] Or Anthony who was fighting demons while alone for 20 years and you realize those demons are actually personal sins so no matter what you do you bring them with you.

[00:18:25] And I'm going to remind you for us because so many people today I was thinking of this parallel as I was writing about the desert saints.

[00:18:34] So many people say like the church is not behaving well and I've heard a lot of those comments especially in light of the southern Baptist convention scandals.

[00:18:43] I'm quitting church I'm just going to do I'm going to love Jesus on my own and my point is well people have been trying to do that since the early church and.

[00:18:54] It doesn't work so well the point is that you need community that doesn't mean you have to stay in a church that is harmful.

[00:19:03] But you do need community of other Christians other sinners this idea of like I need to find that perfect church that does things exactly the way I would like it to do thanks so much.

[00:19:15] I don't want to get locked in I mean that's such a modern American thing to say you know we want things the way we want them but it's not about us and that's where the gospel has so many reminders for us like you should be serving.

[00:19:30] I love the qualifications for elders for instance the listing like why does an elder have to be you know a husband and a father because nobody locks you down more like a family where you know there's no sanctification like.

[00:19:47] I mean I think that's the way in up all night with a baby who is throwing up or things like that you have you have real people calling you to community and you can't quit.

[00:19:57] And it doesn't look like your ideal but that's the point and church should be doing these things I mean again like there's there certainly are situations where it becomes abusive but my point is if we have those kinds of the standards more like.

[00:20:12] Christ calls us to when we think of that more in terms of what church should be. It becomes a much more beautiful thing and it's not about us it really isn't. What was most surprising for you.

[00:20:26] I humor too while you were looking at this topic and did you start with this topic or did it kind of more while you were doing your homework you know because the academics I really.

[00:20:36] I interview a lot of authors and there seems to be a difference between when I study like or when I interview people who've done academic studies versus more of a broader.

[00:20:47] I mean, it's a topic, Christian topic they know what they're going into in the broader and they write about it and they publish it.

[00:20:52] I kind of find a trend that when it's an academic study that it seems to vary from how it started because of the study always. Takes you in a different direction. Find that.

[00:21:03] Yeah absolutely so when I first started I was thinking like the idea that I had in mind what I was noticing is.

[00:21:11] Early churches were filled with sinners and that was kind of my starting point when I was first like gathering material and so this was going to be a book about.

[00:21:21] There's an early church and like the leaders who loved them well called them into repentance and all of that but then as I was getting more into the story I realized that the common thread to the sins that I was looking at was culture and that's where everything kind of clicked into place and I realized.

[00:21:40] Also that the story was going to be larger and scope because originally I was thinking I was going to focus more on like the third third fourth fifth centuries but then when I realized I was looking at cultural Christians.

[00:21:52] It made more sense to start the story at the very beginning because they were there from the very beginning so yeah these these stories definitely kind of clicked together as as I was working.

[00:22:05] But in a way it was also pushing me to think like why tell stories like this right because it almost feels like historical gossip like here are really awful things people were doing let me tell you some more we really love talking about negative things right if you look at the news the positive stuff rarely makes the news I mean occasionally you might get a feel good story like somebody rescue to cat great but most of the time we're really like the really awful stuff in the news it really skews the balance used that way.

[00:22:34] And especially when it comes to church it's the scandals that always make the news I mean there are the vast majority of Christians even today who are really wonderful people who love their neighbor love their family and so on does this make the news no.

[00:22:50] So writing a book like this about sinners I was worried that I would be getting into that trap also like here's all the dirty laundry that I can tell you and I wanted this to be encouraging and the question is like how do you make it encouraging.

[00:23:06] And my point was like let's bring it to ourselves like who are we in what ways are we do we need to be convicted today.

[00:23:16] Yeah, I mean it is kind of a fun read and kind of reading their dirty laundry but not because it's you know gossipy more because it's it makes you feel not justified and like how bad my behavior is but that.

[00:23:33] Just that we're all human and it's all it's all the struggle these people were not very far out from when Christ actually lived or the apostles and some of them were still living the apostles and they're doing crazy stuff.

[00:23:47] And that's always been a good example for us you know Paul saying I'm the I'm the lead I'm the worst of sinners and that I and he him confessing that I still struggle and I always do what I don't want to do but if they left it is just the halo image.

[00:24:03] We tend to go that way but yet even those people were trying to say it's a struggle.

[00:24:10] And I think your book lays that out in a balanced way but tell us about the I want the early I don't want to call them nuns because nuns that exist yet.

[00:24:21] About these these women you know what I'm talking about yes so it's again Cyprian of Carthage who gets a lot of mileage in my book.

[00:24:31] So really well he wasn't really gentle pastor I feel like you know a lot of a lot of early church leaders you read their work even Paul and you think I don't know if I want to be in a church that this person pastor it might have been a little too intense but Cyprian strikes me as somebody who would have been really kind.

[00:24:49] loving pastor like the kind of person you would grab a cup of coffee with and have a good conversation and he would just listen and like hit you with the gospel but in a way that would be like so gentle and kind.

[00:25:03] So one problem that he and he ran into a lot of problems but one problem he ran into and he wrote a treat us about it. And he called consecrated virgins so women who had consecrated themselves to Christ they're unmarried.

[00:25:17] Their job if you want to call it that is to pray for the church.

[00:25:21] But here they are living in a cosmopolitan Roman city yet again so surprise the culture around is kind of affecting them and in particular in Carthage at the time it was fashionable to go to public baths where you could.

[00:25:39] And so openly in the nude and this is mixed bathing and so Cyprian is trying to explain like this is just not a good idea but also these women are very much interested in fancy clothing fancy jewelry.

[00:25:53] And he's trying to kind of gently tell them these are not things that are appropriate for you as consecrated to Christ. When God looks at you he looks at you as beloved daughters and that's what should matter.

[00:26:08] So I found he's discussion of these issues really kind and compassionate trying to remind them that the culture should not have them in their grasp in its grasp because in Gregoroman culture the way you look to reflect your status.

[00:26:23] So for these women there was again that the lure of culture like well if I'm from a wealthy background of course I should be maximizing jewelry whenever I'm out in public and Cyprian is trying to say like no this is not about it.

[00:26:38] But I found that conversational so fascinating in light of the occasional. It keeps rotating through social media periodically conversations about why women should or should not wear yoga pants or leggings or something like that.

[00:26:54] And so I thought of Cyprian in that light also where the reviews there that he gives to these women are not that they're seducing others the reviews that he gives them about their clothing appearance or public nude bathing have to do with their own souls.

[00:27:12] And that is so beautiful like it's about your relationship with God. It's not about anybody else thinks about you. Yeah, it's funny you mention yoga pants. I didn't think about that but in my little opening comments just talking about well.

[00:27:30] That we think we're on a decline morally and that the early church was so perfect. You're talking about like in modern day you know it looks like women at the gym almost don't have clothes on because of yoga pants but then you're talking about these.

[00:27:45] And it's not like women concentrated to Christ back then that we're okay being completely naked in public and didn't see harm in it because of their culture not making it right or wrong but cultures culture and it's always influence does.

[00:28:01] Exactly, that's that's what it is and it's all a matter of what you look at so if we have if we come to the evidence with a preconceived notion of these Christians were also much better than us will find it will look at the martyrs and overlook everybody else.

[00:28:15] And if we want to write a story about the decline, we can certainly find enough evidence to do it but as historians.

[00:28:22] I certainly want us to look at kind of the full gamut of picture the full picture that we can see the full gamut of evidence that we have available and the evidence is more complicated because people are complicated.

[00:28:34] Yeah, another issue to trust I thought was interesting and brave is a Christian nationalism.

[00:28:41] And it's funny because sometimes you say well when I was younger I thought of it this way now that's your culture right the culture you were raised in the environment you had that was your frame of mind and I never once thought specifically or said you know like America is.

[00:29:01] God's country basically this or that but as I got older I started to reflect and I think you know I think some people doing it there's a difference between God blessing a country which he can bless every country that puts him first.

[00:29:13] So nationalism or Christian nationalism be no it's my country. Or just to define that for me. So I look at Christian nationalism through the eyes of Augustan or you know to the extent that anybody can look through anything through the eyes of Augustan but.

[00:29:32] So to give you to give the background in 410 AD the city of Rome was sacked by the gods and it was the first time that Rome had been sacked in centuries and for everybody who was alive in the Roman Empire the time this was the most traumatic event of their lives like how could God allow this to happen to Rome is what every Christian was asking.

[00:29:52] Every pagan was asking how could the Christians have allowed this to happen to Rome by you know making the pagan gods unhappy.

[00:30:01] Anyway so Augustan broke his city of God as a response to these concerns from both the Christians and the pagans and in the process he reflects you know. The entirety of Christian existence up until that moment had been under the umbrella of the Roman Empire.

[00:30:20] So of course like it's really easy to conflate God and country where the only country where you've known this faith to exist has been that one.

[00:30:29] So the Roman Empire for Christians was like of course like the two exists together one makes the other possible and you almost forget like which one did what.

[00:30:39] And Augustan is trying to call people to repentance in the process and seems to be preaching very much to himself as well like yes this is awful.

[00:30:49] But God is with us but also if you if you look at previous history of Rome Augustan says God has always been with Rome God has always.

[00:31:00] So made sure that the rain fell on just and they unjust and God is in charge of history so an accurate view of the past and an accurate view of the future is crucial for Christians to kind of go through suffering in this life.

[00:31:17] And it is suffering I mean he says like to see your country not doing well is suffering. Yeah, yeah God's King de Malta Middle East without borders right.

[00:31:30] Exactly well and ultimately God's kingdom is not here and that's what Augustan's point is the city of God it's not here but it will come. Right. What would you say well actually before we go on I'm interested with the guy on the pillar what was that all about.

[00:31:49] Simian Styletus he is yes he is a gift to historians of the early church so this is a guy who I mean we talked a little bit earlier about quitters people who quit church you know quit society moved into the desert.

[00:32:05] He kind of wanted to do that but he instead of going into the desert he decided you know what I'm just going to move higher and higher like he moves to an abandoned town.

[00:32:15] And starts out on a pillar that's a few feet above the ground and things like I'm just going to have this be my desert I'm going to be alone nobody's going to bother me well he becomes instead of public attraction and people keep coming to him and he keeps moving to higher and higher pillars.

[00:32:33] Finally he settles on one that was 50 feet off the ground and he lives there for the remaining like 30 odd years of his life.

[00:32:40] Society to live alone instead there are Byzantine emperors coming to see him anybody like anybody famous but also just anybody else would come to see him pray. But he was sitting silence and on occasion he taught to all from a pillar. Interesting life.

[00:33:01] Very uncomfortable life we hear he was kind of he was kind of malformed after a while I mean as you might imagine when you're like on a tiny little pillar and you're trying to sleep there and all that but he.

[00:33:13] Eventually came to turn with the fact that he couldn't escape people and I guess eventually he dies mid-prayer. So you've kind of summarized it anyway but overall what would you want people to get from this book or who haven't read it yet?

[00:33:33] What's the main thing that we could walk away with and you know that Christians would contemplate to make it relevant in their head today other than you know historical not gossip but historical information about the early church.

[00:33:53] I got summarized it as like good news bad news. So the good news is you're a lot more like the early church if you're a Christian today the bad news is you're a lot more like the early church than you ever imagined if you're a Christian today but that history makes it relevant like their stories are our stories.

[00:34:11] Yeah very good. All right I appreciate your time thank you very much. Tell them what me outlaws he said come follow me. We look all walks of life since and then we're coming now.